Author Topic: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System  (Read 118896 times)

Offline Star One

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13982
  • UK
  • Liked: 3968
  • Likes Given: 220
CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #100 on: 03/24/2015 06:29 am »
At some point you've gotta accept a little additional complication in order to move forward and gain desirable long-term capability.  Shortsighted, risk averse thinking that would have us flying expendable tin cans ad infinitum is NASA's biggest problem imo, and why we so desperately need the commercial upstarts to disrupt the status quo.

I don't think that's an argument that's going to hold any sway when it comes to making this choice.
« Last Edit: 03/24/2015 06:36 am by Star One »

Offline newpylong

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1499
  • Liked: 200
  • Likes Given: 343
Re: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #101 on: 03/24/2015 12:25 pm »
At some point you've gotta accept a little additional complication in order to move forward and gain desirable long-term capability.  Shortsighted, risk averse thinking that would have us flying expendable tin cans ad infinitum is NASA's biggest problem imo, and why we so desperately need the commercial upstarts to disrupt the status quo.

No you don't.

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37439
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21448
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #102 on: 03/24/2015 12:51 pm »
have us flying expendable tin cans ad infinitum

And what is wrong with that?   What says wings are the right way and not capsules?   Maybe the original premise was wrong and the correction is to go back to capsules.   

Offline abaddon

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3051
  • Liked: 3899
  • Likes Given: 5264
Re: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #103 on: 03/24/2015 01:03 pm »
And what is wrong with that?   What says wings are the right way and not capsules?   Maybe the original premise was wrong and the correction is to go back to capsules.

Not only that, capsules can be reused, so "expendable tin cans" isn't even applicable.   In fact three of the four other entrants (CST cargo, Dragon, Jupiter) feature major reusable components; two capsules that return to earth and a reusable space tug.  So Dream Chaser being reusable is hardly a differentiating factor here.  The only fully expendable proposal is Cygnus.

Offline rayleighscatter

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1098
  • Maryland
  • Liked: 565
  • Likes Given: 238
Re: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #104 on: 03/24/2015 10:10 pm »
Press Release today:

Quote
SPARKS, Nev. (March 24, 2015) – Sierra Nevada Corporation’s (SNC) Space Systems and the Houston Airport System (HAS) announce a new follow-on agreement to utilize Ellington Airport’s Spaceport as a future landing site for SNC’s Uncrewed Dream Chaser® spacecraft - SNC’s solution for NASA’s Cargo Resupply needs and other critical space operations.

Full release- http://www.sncorp.com/AboutUs/NewsDetails/973

Offline vt_hokie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
  • Hazlet, NJ
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 435
Re: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #105 on: 03/24/2015 10:55 pm »
have us flying expendable tin cans ad infinitum

And what is wrong with that?   What says wings are the right way and not capsules?   Maybe the original premise was wrong and the correction is to go back to capsules.   

Depends on the long-term goal I guess.  If the goal is to make spaceflight more routine and accessible to more of humanity, reusability is the way to go.  If the goal is to maintain the status quo, then innovation is not required and we can just keep pouring billions into sending a few career astronauts into low Earth orbit for no particular reason.

In any case, with regard to cargo I'm thinking more of the "good enough" throw-away craft like Cygnus vs the possibility of additional down-mass capability and rapid return to a land facility offered by DC.
« Last Edit: 03/24/2015 11:13 pm by vt_hokie »

Offline Burninate

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1145
  • Liked: 360
  • Likes Given: 74
Re: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #106 on: 03/25/2015 12:03 am »
While the CRS-2 RFP talks about docking (IDA) and berthing (CBM) being options, it also says that they need a CBM solution in the mix because of its width. See Answer 20 here: https://prod.nais.nasa.gov/eps/eps_data/160022-OTHER-003-001.pdf so that implies that at least SpaceX or Orbital ATK will get chosen.

CRS-2 RFP calls for (among other things) pressurized cargo up/down per-flight range of: M01 bag 0-10; M02 bag 10-TBP; M03 bag 0-6. How those bags fit with respect to NDS, Cygnus mini-CBM and CBM is shown in the attached figure below.

edit: add ISPR; edit: add NDS 120cm; add NDS petals; add M03 bag fit through NDS.
Hold on a minute...

Are those petals really the bounding box?  Or are there petals on both androgynous sides of the port, creating an inscribed circle using six petals?  I'm not certain.

Edit: Attached is an image Wikipedia uses for the NDS.

If I understand correctly, I think what Joek is showing is a situation where the adapter on station has fixed petals, but the VV petals are removed, so the cargo can be threaded through one triad. Is that possible?
Yes, that was the intent... if one set of petals is removed, the potential size increases.  I do not know if it is possible to remove either set of petals.

Can the NDS act as the space side of an air lock?
It may need a door.
What's the inner diameter? AIUI, astros prefer a big door with little chance of entangling.

NDS - The NASA Docking System has a passage for crew and cargo with a diameter of 685 millimetres (27.0 in), which can be increased to 813 millimetres (32.0 in) by removing the petals of the capture mechanism after mating.  IMHO An outer door will probably have the petals present.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Docking_System
That's outdated info. The passthrough diameter is now 800 mm (31.5 in), the petals are no longer removable.
Is it the case that 3 petals in a mated pair are no longer removeable, or 6 petals in a mated pair are no longer removeable?
None.

So it seems they won't fit through that way per the final spec, according to manboy.
« Last Edit: 03/28/2015 01:20 am by Burninate »

Offline mtakala24

Re: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #107 on: 03/25/2015 10:18 am »
I couldn't find out if the main fuselage is still in the same scale as the crewed version was. Anyone know?

Offline MattMason

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1062
  • Space Enthusiast
  • Indiana
  • Liked: 772
  • Likes Given: 2011
Re: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #108 on: 03/27/2015 02:41 pm »
Based on these screen caps from SNC's concept videos of DC-Cargo and Crew, I'd say that DC-Cargo is perplexingly smaller.

While both use the IDA for docking, the DC-Cargo is smaller to fit into a fairing with its service module, rather than being large enough to sit atop a ULA rocket, with a direct IDA port at stern, as shown in the crew video.

That also suggests that the rear of the DC-Cargo itself is either smaller than the IDA or wholly incompatible due to the size difference, else it would just dock directly to the PMA as its larger sister would have done.

Edit: But perspective is a bear. It might be larger than DC-crew.

« Last Edit: 03/27/2015 02:43 pm by MattMason »
"Why is the logo on the side of a rocket so important?"
"So you can find the pieces." -Jim, the Steely Eyed

Offline Rocket Science

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10586
  • NASA Educator Astronaut Candidate Applicant 2002
  • Liked: 4548
  • Likes Given: 13523
Re: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #109 on: 03/27/2015 02:55 pm »
Based on these screen caps from SNC's concept videos of DC-Cargo and Crew, I'd say that DC-Cargo is perplexingly smaller.

While both use the IDA for docking, the DC-Cargo is smaller to fit into a fairing with its service module, rather than being large enough to sit atop a ULA rocket, with a direct IDA port at stern, as shown in the crew video.

That also suggests that the rear of the DC-Cargo itself is either smaller than the IDA or wholly incompatible due to the size difference, else it would just dock directly to the PMA as its larger sister would have done.

Edit: But perspective is a bear. It might be larger than DC-crew.
If you look at the video of the unloading by the ground crew you see one guy in the tunnel area for some idea (1:39). Not a smaller DC for sure...
« Last Edit: 03/27/2015 02:58 pm by Rocket Science »
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator

Offline mtakala24

Re: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #110 on: 03/27/2015 07:19 pm »
Interesting. Now that there is the SAA to get Crew-DC to CDR or nearly there, there should be some more of that design available that can be applied to the cargo-DC if the main structure is the same size.

Might it also play a role in the buildup of the first flight article?

That is not to say that there won't be many design changes, such as removal of the large abort rockets, windows, crew flight systems, and addition of the wing folding system.

Offline A_M_Swallow

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8906
  • South coast of England
  • Liked: 500
  • Likes Given: 223
Re: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #111 on: 03/28/2015 12:17 am »
I have a feeling that the cargo dream Chaser will be designed in such a way that it will be easy to put the crew systems back in.

Offline Llian Rhydderch

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1237
  • Terran Anglosphere
  • Liked: 1299
  • Likes Given: 9670
Re: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #112 on: 03/28/2015 01:42 pm »
I have no idea whether SNC Dream Chaser will be selected for some contracted cargo delivery missions to the ISS, or not.  As many have noted, there are factors against their bid as well as for it, with likely more in the former category.

But isn't it a great era to find ourselves in in 2015:  private companies are bidding for space transport jobs by submitting bids for services!  And they are taking on financial risk just like in ordinary commercial enterprise. 

In other words, just like in ordinary markets, companies design and bid a product to make revenue from the delivery of services (here, cargo delivery runs), and it is up to the company to fund the development work necessary to make the product offering possible, and the profit of the venture is not assured from any one particular bid, but rather from the company's success or failure with advancing the overall product line, over time, with multiple customers.

Exciting times for spaceflight. Happy to see the innovation advancing in the US from the newer approaches of buying space services, and allowing the market process to encourage innovation!
Re arguments from authority on NSF:  "no one is exempt from error, and errors of authority are usually the worst kind.  Taking your word for things without question is no different than a bracket design not being tested because the designer was an old hand."
"You would actually save yourself time and effort if you were to use evidence and logic to make your points instead of wrapping yourself in the royal mantle of authority.  The approach only works on sheep, not inquisitive, intelligent people."

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11063
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 8582
  • Likes Given: 7675
Re: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #113 on: 04/07/2015 01:19 am »
Dream Chaser® Cargo System Launches on Atlas V Concept of Operation Video

Published on Apr 6, 2015
Sierra Nevada Corporation’s (SNC) Dream Chaser® Cargo System is a mission variant of the Dream Chaser Space System that exceeds all NASA cargo transportation requirements to the International Space Station (ISS). The Dream Chaser Cargo System utilizes a reusable, lifting-body spacecraft and is capable of transporting pressurized and unpressurized cargo concurrently - returning cargo and sensitive science payloads to a low-g and gentle runway landing.

Tony De La Rosa, ...I'm no Feline Dealer!! I move mountains.  but I'm better known for "I think it's highly sexual." Japanese to English Translation.

Offline manboy

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2086
  • Texas, USA, Earth
  • Liked: 134
  • Likes Given: 544
Re: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #114 on: 04/13/2015 09:12 pm »
Are those petals really the bounding box?  Or are there petals on both androgynous sides of the port, creating an inscribed circle using six petals?  I'm not certain.
If I understand correctly, I think what Joek is showing is a situation where the adapter on station has fixed petals, but the VV petals are removed, so the cargo can be threaded through one triad. Is that possible?
Yes, that was the intent... if one set of petals is removed, the potential size increases.  I do not know if it is possible to remove either set of petals.
It's not.
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Online catdlr

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11063
  • Enthusiast since the Redstones
  • Marina del Rey, California, USA
  • Liked: 8582
  • Likes Given: 7675
Re: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #115 on: 07/08/2015 11:00 pm »
SNC’s Dream Chaser Crewed Space System Concept of Operations

Published on Jul 8, 2015
SNC’s Dream Chaser® spacecraft is a reusable, multi-mission space utility vehicle capable of crewed and uncrewed transportation to low-Earth orbit destinations, such as the International Space Station. The Dream Chaser spacecraft launches vertically and returns to a gentle, low-g, horizontal runway landing.

Tony De La Rosa, ...I'm no Feline Dealer!! I move mountains.  but I'm better known for "I think it's highly sexual." Japanese to English Translation.

Offline vt_hokie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
  • Hazlet, NJ
  • Liked: 118
  • Likes Given: 435
Re: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #116 on: 07/10/2015 06:39 pm »
SNC’s Dream Chaser Crewed Space System Concept of Operations

Published on Jul 8, 2015

Odd, same video that's been around for months.

Offline Prober

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10348
  • Save the spin....I'm keeping you honest!
  • Nevada
  • Liked: 721
  • Likes Given: 729
Re: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #117 on: 07/12/2015 02:15 pm »
SNC’s Dream Chaser Crewed Space System Concept of Operations

Published on Jul 8, 2015

Odd, same video that's been around for months.

not odd, CRS-2 announcement is near ???
2017 - Everything Old is New Again.
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant..." --Isoroku Yamamoto

Offline dror

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 730
  • Israel
  • Liked: 245
  • Likes Given: 593
Re: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #118 on: 07/12/2015 03:03 pm »
In the videos DC cargo flies with 3 solids while the crew DC has none.
is that settled then ?
Space is hard immensely complex and high risk !

Offline okan170

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1111
  • Los Angeles
  • Liked: 6806
  • Likes Given: 1345
Re: CRS-2: Dream Chaser Cargo System
« Reply #119 on: 07/12/2015 07:11 pm »
In the videos DC cargo flies with 3 solids while the crew DC has none.
is that settled then ?

I'm thinking that its two different videos from two different times.  The CRS-2 video is modern and with the most up-to-date info regarding LV configuration etc.  The crew video is from a few years ago, and hasn't been changed since it was first made.  I don't think its ever had the SRBs in it, but I doubt thats indicative of a recent change in configuration.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1