Author Topic: "Used" Dragons  (Read 46970 times)

Offline wkann

"Used" Dragons
« on: 05/16/2014 10:47 pm »
I was re-watching the CRS-3 webcast and saw this screen shot with 3 of the 4 flown Dragon Spacecraft. (I know the COTS-1 spacecraft is hanging in Hawthorne). I’m assuming this is at McGregor?

Since Dragon is considered to be a partially reusable spacecraft, does anyone know if these will fly again? Or if there “scrapped” of there electronics and propulsion systems and those parts are being reused?

Also, I know this is off topic, but since we know SpaceX is hanging on to their Dragons, what do the Russians do with the recovered Soyuz Descent Module? I’m guessing they are scrapped?
« Last Edit: 05/16/2014 10:55 pm by wkann »
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Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: "Used" Dragons
« Reply #1 on: 05/16/2014 11:01 pm »
The current CRS contract with NASA requires new spacecraft for each delivery, so the only customer for a used Dragon would be for DragonLab.  As of today there are two DragonLab missions SpaceX shows on their manifest, with the earliest being the fourth payload listed in 2016.

I would imagine they will use a more recently flown Dragon for the DragonLab missions since those will have all the latest hardware and software updates, but overall SpaceX will have 12 slightly-used (or "fully tested") cargo versions of Dragon available by the end of the current CRS contract.

I would imagine that when SpaceX bids for the CRS-2 contract they might submit two bids, one with new-build Dragons, and one with reused ones.  For a number of reasons, I hope NASA selects the reused ones.
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Offline QuantumG

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Re: "Used" Dragons
« Reply #2 on: 05/16/2014 11:07 pm »
The current CRS contract with NASA requires new spacecraft for each delivery,

Where does it say that?

I think this forum has had this discussion about a dozen times.
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Offline Chris Bergin

Re: "Used" Dragons
« Reply #3 on: 05/16/2014 11:09 pm »
The current CRS contract with NASA requires new spacecraft for each delivery,

Where does it say that?

I think this forum has had this discussion about a dozen times.


I've certainly heard that started several times. Currently, for some reason, CRS Dragons have to be new. Not sure why.
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Offline bilbo

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Re: "Used" Dragons
« Reply #4 on: 05/16/2014 11:13 pm »
The current CRS contract with NASA requires new spacecraft for each delivery, so the only customer for a used Dragon would be for DragonLab.  As of today there are two DragonLab missions SpaceX shows on their manifest, with the earliest being the fourth payload listed in 2016.

I would imagine they will use a more recently flown Dragon for the DragonLab missions since those will have all the latest hardware and software updates, but overall SpaceX will have 12 slightly-used (or "fully tested") cargo versions of Dragon available by the end of the current CRS contract.

I would imagine that when SpaceX bids for the CRS-2 contract they might submit two bids, one with new-build Dragons, and one with reused ones.  For a number of reasons, I hope NASA selects the reused ones.
I'm curious as well, I'm guessing they obviously study the heat shield for analysis. Other then that though im not really sure what they do. They could possibly be studying some small parts of them like the thrusters.

I think if Coastal is correct, then NASA requires new capsules, they really don't have to re-use them. I think NASA is just trying to get SpaceX to Build up their fleet.

Another idea is that Space X is planning on reusing Dragon Mk2, since they can use it for both a human flight, and cargo landing/crew on Mars perhaps.
« Last Edit: 05/16/2014 11:15 pm by bilbo »

Offline Joffan

Re: "Used" Dragons
« Reply #5 on: 05/16/2014 11:15 pm »
The current CRS contract with NASA requires new spacecraft for each delivery, ...
I think not. The CRS contract is priced for a new spacecraft for each delivery, and certainly that path is one that requires least additional justification, but as far as I know (from many discussions here on NSF) there is no absolute requirement for it.

...so the only customer for a used Dragon would be for DragonLab.  As of today there are two DragonLab missions SpaceX shows on their manifest, with the earliest being the fourth payload listed in 2016.
I could imagine a Bigelow station needs supplies - I know this is speculative but it's another possible use, and no doubt someone more imaginative than me could think of more uses and customers.

I would imagine they will use a more recently flown Dragon for the DragonLab missions since those will have all the latest hardware and software updates, but overall SpaceX will have 12 slightly-used (or "fully tested") cargo versions of Dragon available by the end of the current CRS contract.

I would imagine that when SpaceX bids for the CRS-2 contract they might submit two bids, one with new-build Dragons, and one with reused ones.  For a number of reasons, I hope NASA selects the reused ones.
I'm with you on this, although there still might be some new Dragons required if there is some upgraded capability required on certain missions. And SpaceX might want to retire them after a certain number of missions anyway, so mix in a trickle of new Dragons into that contract submission ;) .
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Offline Avron

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Re: "Used" Dragons
« Reply #6 on: 05/16/2014 11:18 pm »
The current CRS contract with NASA requires new spacecraft for each delivery,

Where does it say that?

I think this forum has had this discussion about a dozen times.


I've certainly heard that started several times. Currently, for some reason, CRS Dragons have to be new. Not sure why.

Could be in the baseline requirement  i.e open for review via acceptance criteria .. TBD.. i.e not open at this time

Offline Jim

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Re: "Used" Dragons
« Reply #7 on: 05/16/2014 11:30 pm »
All NASA said to Spacex was to bid the costs of new vehicles since refurb costs were unknown at the time.  And since they did, NASA gets a new Dragon each mission.

Offline QuantumG

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Re: "Used" Dragons
« Reply #8 on: 05/17/2014 01:09 am »
The contract is public information right? I remember reading it. Pretty sure I got a copy from this forum.
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Offline clongton

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Re: "Used" Dragons
« Reply #9 on: 05/17/2014 01:28 am »
All NASA said to Spacex was to bid the costs of new vehicles since refurb costs were unknown at the time.  And since they did, NASA gets a new Dragon each mission.

That is correct.The contract did not specify "only" a new Dragon could be flown, but SpaceX was instructed to price each spacecraft at the "new" price because the cost to refurbish and re-certify a flown Dragon was unknown. It is to SpaceX's advantage therefore to supply a new Dragon for each CRS mission and keep the already flown (and paid for) reusable spacecraft for their own developing in-house spaceflight program. Whether new or used, SpaceX retains ownership of the spacecraft itself. It is an interesting opportunity for SpaceX to build up its own in-house fleet of successfully flown reusable spacecraft on NASA's dime. SpaceX will only need to fund the refurbishment and re-certification costs.
« Last Edit: 05/17/2014 01:29 am by clongton »
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Offline Rocket Science

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Re: "Used" Dragons
« Reply #10 on: 05/17/2014 01:33 am »
My understanding was that NASA gets a new spacecraft and Elon gets a free spacecraft as a result which he will refurbish/refit for future flights including tourism. This is made possible since Dragon was designed to be human rated from the beginning...

Hah, what Chuck said above... ;D
« Last Edit: 05/17/2014 01:36 am by Rocket Science »
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Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: "Used" Dragons
« Reply #11 on: 05/17/2014 02:15 am »
The contract did not specify "only" a new Dragon could be flown, but SpaceX was instructed to price each spacecraft at the "new" price because the cost to refurbish and re-certify a flown Dragon was unknown.

Thanks to all for the clarifications and corrections to what I originally said.

And the bottom line for SpaceX is a good one - a fleet of already proven spacecraft that should cost far less to re-fly for cargo missions than building new.  And if they fly them on top of a F9R, that could really be a paradigm changer...
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Offline TrevorMonty

Re: "Used" Dragons
« Reply #12 on: 05/17/2014 02:27 am »
Long term Dragon 2 will replace Dragon1 which may make these used Dragons obsolete. One possible use is expendable missions eg supplying an L2 station, or for deep space experiments.

Offline yg1968

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Re: "Used" Dragons
« Reply #13 on: 05/17/2014 02:42 am »
The contract is public information right? I remember reading it. Pretty sure I got a copy from this forum.

Yes, see this link:
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/news/contracts/NNJ09GA04B/NNJ09GA04B_prt.htm
« Last Edit: 05/17/2014 02:55 am by yg1968 »

Offline QuantumG

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Re: "Used" Dragons
« Reply #14 on: 05/17/2014 02:59 am »
It is to SpaceX's advantage therefore to supply a new Dragon for each CRS mission and keep the already flown (and paid for) reusable spacecraft for their own developing in-house spaceflight program.

It's also to their advantage to refurbish a Dragon and fly it again, if it costs less than a new Dragon. Assuming mission success, they get paid the same either way. So why haven't they? Surely, making a bigger profit on a signed contract makes a lot more sense than building up a supply for some unspecified future business. Maybe they're not so certain of mission success with a refurbished Dragon?

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Offline Lar

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Re: "Used" Dragons
« Reply #15 on: 05/17/2014 03:24 am »
It is to SpaceX's advantage therefore to supply a new Dragon for each CRS mission and keep the already flown (and paid for) reusable spacecraft for their own developing in-house spaceflight program.

It's also to their advantage to refurbish a Dragon and fly it again, if it costs less than a new Dragon. Assuming mission success, they get paid the same either way. So why haven't they? Surely, making a bigger profit on a signed contract makes a lot more sense than building up a supply for some unspecified future business. Maybe they're not so certain of mission success with a refurbished Dragon?

I agree. And I'd expect it tried sometime before CRS-12.

But maybe they want to build up the fleet a bit or the design hasn't stabilised yet? (why reuse one you know is wrong when a better one is in the wings). Or maybe they're just too busy right now and wil have time in a flight or 3... So ya, I think they will, just not next flight.
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Offline RocketmanUS

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Re: "Used" Dragons
« Reply #16 on: 05/17/2014 03:32 am »
It is to SpaceX's advantage therefore to supply a new Dragon for each CRS mission and keep the already flown (and paid for) reusable spacecraft for their own developing in-house spaceflight program.

It's also to their advantage to refurbish a Dragon and fly it again, if it costs less than a new Dragon. Assuming mission success, they get paid the same either way. So why haven't they? Surely, making a bigger profit on a signed contract makes a lot more sense than building up a supply for some unspecified future business. Maybe they're not so certain of mission success with a refurbished Dragon?

I agree. And I'd expect it tried sometime before CRS-12.

But maybe they want to build up the fleet a bit or the design hasn't stabilised yet? (why reuse one you know is wrong when a better one is in the wings). Or maybe they're just too busy right now and wil have time in a flight or 3... So ya, I think they will, just not next flight.
A little bit of upgrades each flight as they learn more.
They will want them quick turn around and at as little cost as possible. That should be after the first land-landing.

They might reuse one for a Dragon Lab mission, less to risk and  no risk for CRS/ISS.

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: "Used" Dragons
« Reply #17 on: 05/17/2014 05:29 am »
It is to SpaceX's advantage therefore to supply a new Dragon for each CRS mission and keep the already flown (and paid for) reusable spacecraft for their own developing in-house spaceflight program.

It's also to their advantage to refurbish a Dragon and fly it again, if it costs less than a new Dragon. Assuming mission success, they get paid the same either way. So why haven't they? Surely, making a bigger profit on a signed contract makes a lot more sense than building up a supply for some unspecified future business. Maybe they're not so certain of mission success with a refurbished Dragon?

Could be they haven't had enough employee "bandwidth" to work on reusability yet due to all the other activities they have going on (upgraded Dragon cargo, Dragon MK2, Grasshopper, F9 v1.1, F9R, etc.).  Maybe part of the bump in employment from 3,500 to 4,500 will provide that bandwidth for later flights.

Compared to all the other activities they have been working on, reusing cargo vehicles may have been near the bottom of their priority list, especially since their customer is happy with the existing contract.
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Offline CuddlyRocket

Re: "Used" Dragons
« Reply #18 on: 05/17/2014 07:33 am »
It is to SpaceX's advantage therefore to supply a new Dragon for each CRS mission and keep the already flown (and paid for) reusable spacecraft for their own developing in-house spaceflight program.

It's also to their advantage to refurbish a Dragon and fly it again, if it costs less than a new Dragon. Assuming mission success, they get paid the same either way. So why haven't they? Surely, making a bigger profit on a signed contract makes a lot more sense than building up a supply for some unspecified future business. Maybe they're not so certain of mission success with a refurbished Dragon?


Can you imagine the slating SpaceX would get if they used a refurbished Dragon on their taxpayer-funded NASA contract and it failed?! The political and PR risk is too great; especially as they're being paid for a new Dragon in any event.

Refurbished Dragons will first be used either on a SpaceX test flight (perhaps the FH) or where a customer has specifically contracted for a refurb accepting the risks for a cheaper price. There are no such customers at present.

Offline clongton

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Re: "Used" Dragons
« Reply #19 on: 05/17/2014 11:27 am »
It is to SpaceX's advantage therefore to supply a new Dragon for each CRS mission and keep the already flown (and paid for) reusable spacecraft for their own developing in-house spaceflight program.

It's also to their advantage to refurbish a Dragon and fly it again, if it costs less than a new Dragon. Assuming mission success, they get paid the same either way. So why haven't they?

Because if they refurbish a Dragon and fly it again for CRS, that's one new Dragon they don't get to have NASA pay for.
So while NASA is paying for new Dragons, build new Dragons. Every new one is an additional Dragon in the barn that they don't have to pay for themselves. It's pure economics - nothing more.
« Last Edit: 05/17/2014 11:29 am by clongton »
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