Author Topic: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions  (Read 41387 times)

Offline suncity

  • Member
  • Posts: 13
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #20 on: 01/09/2014 09:04 AM »
Great article as usual, Chris. Exciting stuff indeed but the bit that caught my eye in particular was:

"...with references to how the Europeans may be able to offer a lighter version of the Thermal Protection System (TPS) that is currently allocated to the future Dream Chaser fleet..."

Could anyone expand on this? As Europe has no re-entry capability, I had assumed all the experience and practical knowledge of TPS is largely in the US!

Thanks,

Andrew.

Europe will get some experience soon with a maneuverable vehicle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate_eXperimental_Vehicle

and demonstrated an Apollo-like capsule reentry in 1998:
http://cs.astrium.eads.net/sp/spacecraft-propulsion/showcase/atmospheric-re-entry-demonstrator.html


Offline Covspaceman

  • Member
  • Posts: 16
  • Rochdale, UK
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #21 on: 01/09/2014 09:45 AM »
Thanks to Oli and Suncity for the links  :)

Andrew.

Offline Lurker Steve

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1420
  • Liked: 35
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #22 on: 01/09/2014 12:29 PM »
Any word on what the "upgrades" to the current ETV will be ?

Are they replacing the cones at the rear of the ETV with actual Hybrid engines, so we will be able to see powered flight later this year ? If they are going to do high-altitude flight, I assume they need the Hybrids to get up there.

Offline Chris Bergin

Great response, much appreciated!

Split this into a standalone thread to allow the update thread to remain on track and give this thread the discussion specific to the article.

Offline Rocket Science

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8025
  • NASA Educator Astronaut Candidate Applicant 2002
  • Liked: 2216
  • Likes Given: 5193
Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #24 on: 01/09/2014 01:22 PM »
Great article Chris!  :) Very wily on the part of SNC in their talks to “internationalize” Dream Chaser.  It demonstrates their willingness to work with the international partners for ISS, establishes lines of communications and building relationships which is NASA’s plan for future space activities...
« Last Edit: 01/09/2014 01:26 PM by Rocket Science »
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob, Physics instructor, aviator, vintage auto racer

Offline Lurker Steve

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1420
  • Liked: 35
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #25 on: 01/09/2014 01:58 PM »
Great article Chris!  :) Very wily on the part of SNC in their talks to “internationalize” Dream Chaser.  It demonstrates their willingness to work with the international partners for ISS, establishes lines of communications and building relationships which is NASA’s plan for future space activities...

I don't know the selection criteria for the next round, but SNC's business plan for DC just got a few extra points added. Offering actual non-ISS LEO missions to the ESA is certainly more appealing that depending on a non-existent Bigelow station for extra flights.

Offline Star One

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8272
  • UK
  • Liked: 1340
  • Likes Given: 168
Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #26 on: 01/09/2014 02:55 PM »
Great article Chris!  :) Very wily on the part of SNC in their talks to “internationalize” Dream Chaser.  It demonstrates their willingness to work with the international partners for ISS, establishes lines of communications and building relationships which is NASA’s plan for future space activities...

I don't know the selection criteria for the next round, but SNC's business plan for DC just got a few extra points added. Offering actual non-ISS LEO missions to the ESA is certainly more appealing that depending on a non-existent Bigelow station for extra flights.

I know these things are hard to judge but I wonder if they have now done enough to pull ahead of Boeing in what they have to offer as a commercial crew program. Always assuming that CST-100 & DC are still playing catchup with Dragon.
« Last Edit: 01/09/2014 02:56 PM by Star One »

Offline yg1968

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9170
  • Liked: 1178
  • Likes Given: 778
Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #27 on: 01/09/2014 03:06 PM »
I am sceptical.

First of all, ESA can already fly to the ISS with the Russians or whatever NASA choses as a commercial crew vehicle. That's part of the deal, right? So maybe ESA plans to contribute to ISS operations with Dreamchaser participation? (similar to the SM of Orion). I don't like the sound of that, at least not in the case of commercial crew.

In any case, its very unlikely that ESA would fund an american company to build a crew vehicle for them. I don't think that is how ESA works.

Regarding launch on the Ariane 5, that seems to be another ploy from the DLR to keep Ariane 6 from happening too soon.
ESA is spreading it's eggs over multiple baskets. Risk reduction. Soyuz for ISS flights. From the deal with SN it is not immediately clear that the use of DreamChaser will be for ISS flight. Actually, it is more likely that ESA will want to have orbital access for non-ISS missions.
And I don't think SN will be building DC's for ESA. It very much more likely will be that ESA will be buying DC flight services.

You seemed skeptical before that this study would lead to anything. Has your opinion changed on the possibility of DC4EU happening?

What is interesting is that most of the potential missions which are mentionned in the article (see quote from article below) could probably be done with an uncrewed version of DC.

Quote from: SNC
“With the start of these new relationships with ESA and DLR we are able to continue to expand the Dream Chaser Space System globally. The combined strengths of our partner space agencies, industrial companies and education institutions will significantly advance space education, exploration and, for various missions such as microgravity science, spacecraft servicing, debris removal, and materials manufacturing, provide economic benefits to all partners and strengthen U.S. and international ties.”
« Last Edit: 01/09/2014 03:26 PM by yg1968 »

Offline M129K

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 800
  • I don't know what to put here.
  • Liked: 51
  • Likes Given: 256
Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #28 on: 01/09/2014 03:15 PM »

I find the idea that DC would be too heavy for Ariane V to be very bizarre.
As do I...

Too big =/= too heavy.

Online Elmar Moelzer

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2918
  • Liked: 488
  • Likes Given: 733
Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #29 on: 01/09/2014 03:20 PM »

I find the idea that DC would be too heavy for Ariane V to be very bizarre.
As do I...

Too big =/= too heavy.

Lars and I were referring to this:
Quote from: Chris's article
before adding he thinks the Dream Chaser is currently a little bit too heavy for the launcher.
« Last Edit: 01/09/2014 03:20 PM by Elmar Moelzer »

Offline Lurker Steve

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1420
  • Liked: 35
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #30 on: 01/09/2014 03:31 PM »
The article mentioned they wanted to put it inside a fairing for un-manned missions.

That fairing would definitely add some weight, but does it add that much ??

Online Elmar Moelzer

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2918
  • Liked: 488
  • Likes Given: 733
Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #31 on: 01/09/2014 03:43 PM »
The article mentioned they wanted to put it inside a fairing for un-manned missions.

That fairing would definitely add some weight, but does it add that much ??
I don't think he was referring to that. I think he thinks that the DC is generally to heavy for the launcher. It would be great to have some sort of follow up on that quote. It is definitely the oddest thing I have heard. Also I am wondering how much the DC would affect aerodynamics on an Ariane compared to the Atlas and how extensive the resulting changes would really have to be.

Offline pippin

  • Regular
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2543
  • Liked: 282
  • Likes Given: 39
Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #32 on: 01/09/2014 03:46 PM »
Ariane 5 is mass-limited to LEO because it's designed as a GTO launcher.
I don't know what the ME version will be able to carry but the ES version they currently use for ATV and which has structurally reinforced first stages is no longer around, it got discontinued long ago when they knew they're going to stop ATV.
That might be what they need to fix, they probably still know how to do it but it will come at a cost.
« Last Edit: 01/09/2014 03:47 PM by pippin »

Offline yg1968

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9170
  • Liked: 1178
  • Likes Given: 778
Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #33 on: 01/09/2014 03:54 PM »
Quote
The ETA will now be upgraded for one or two more flights – listed as ALT-1 and ALT-2 – beginning later this year. Both will once again be conducted at the Dryden Flight Research Center in California.

I have a couple of questions about the next flights ALT-1 and ALT-2. I am assuming that these are uncrewed flights? Do we know when they will be performed this year? I would imagine before the end of August as that is when CCiCap is supposed to end.
« Last Edit: 01/09/2014 04:00 PM by yg1968 »

Offline simonbp

Ariane 5 is mass-limited to LEO because it's designed as a GTO launcher.
I don't know what the ME version will be able to carry but the ES version they currently use for ATV and which has structurally reinforced first stages is no longer around, it got discontinued long ago when they knew they're going to stop ATV.
That might be what they need to fix, they probably still know how to do it but it will come at a cost.

Well, the whole thing will be expensive. Just not as expensive as starting from scratch.

The better question is what they actually plan to do with DreamChaser. It is a vehicle designed very specifically to go to a LEO space station. ISS flights are obvious, but there are other options for that which would not need an MOU right now.

Could an Ariane-launched DreamChaser reach the future Chinese Space Station? ;)
« Last Edit: 01/09/2014 04:27 PM by simonbp »

Offline Khadgars

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 939
  • Long Beach, California
  • Liked: 144
  • Likes Given: 496
Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #35 on: 01/09/2014 04:45 PM »
Excellent article, thanks Chris.  Cool, so two more drop tests this year and first orbital test in two years very exciting.  She has a bit more lift under her wings than we thought.

Offline Chris Bergin

Excellent article, thanks Chris.  Cool, so two more drop tests this year and first orbital test in two years very exciting.  She has a bit more lift under her wings than we thought.

Thanks very much! :)

Indeed. Something to look forward to seeing her fly again!

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9589
  • Liked: 352
  • Likes Given: 462
Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #37 on: 01/09/2014 06:15 PM »

Could an Ariane-launched DreamChaser reach the future Chinese Space Station? ;)

If the DC could reach ISS launched on Ariane, it can certainly reach Tiangong.

I am surprised that no one is considering that the DC could serve as the upper stage for Ariane 5, obviating the need for the launcher to carry a dedicated upper stage.

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31362
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 9634
  • Likes Given: 299
Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #38 on: 01/09/2014 06:19 PM »

I am surprised that no one is considering that the DC could serve as the upper stage for Ariane 5, obviating the need for the launcher to carry a dedicated upper stage.


Because it doesn't have the dV, just like on Atlas.

Offline M129K

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 800
  • I don't know what to put here.
  • Liked: 51
  • Likes Given: 256
Re: Dream Chaser's European deal points to multi-role ambitions
« Reply #39 on: 01/09/2014 06:24 PM »

I am surprised that no one is considering that the DC could serve as the upper stage for Ariane 5, obviating the need for the launcher to carry a dedicated upper stage.


Because it doesn't have the dV, just like on Atlas.
The Atlas first stage isn't a sustainer stage, and Centaur does a lot of the ∆V to reach orbit. The Ariane core almost reaches orbit and the ES upper stage only performs a small, 100-200 m/s burn on LEO flights. Are you sure DC isn't capable of that?

Tags: