Author Topic: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2019  (Read 45141 times)

Offline beidou

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"Some previous reports claimed that research on the Chang'e-5 probe would be ended. The rumors were denied by Zhang Yuhua, deputy commander in chief and deputy chief designer of the Chang'e-3 rover system, who said the Cheng'e-5 is being developed and will land on the moon by 2020, China National Radio reported on Friday. " Source: http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/830521.shtml#.UqI759JwqSo

But from the Chinese version of the report, the launch will be in 2018. http://bbs.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=4587&pid=277038&fromuid=24484
« Last Edit: 07/28/2017 11:15 AM by Satori »

Offline beidou

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2018
« Reply #1 on: 12/06/2013 08:15 PM »
Two slides from a presentation on Chang'e-5.

Offline Stan Black

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2018
« Reply #2 on: 12/06/2013 08:45 PM »
So it is a combination of Chang’e-1 and Change’e-3?

http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2013-03/14/content_16306808.htm

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2018
« Reply #3 on: 12/07/2013 12:37 AM »
But from the Chinese version of the report, the launch will be in 2018. http://bbs.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=4587&pid=277038&fromuid=24484

I think they've been talking about sample return for 2017 for many years now. That has led to confusion with people assuming that they meant a manned landing by 2017. Bad translations and wishful thinking.

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2018
« Reply #4 on: 12/07/2013 04:57 AM »
But from the Chinese version of the report, the launch will be in 2018. http://bbs.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=4587&pid=277038&fromuid=24484
I think they've been talking about sample return for 2017 for many years now. That has led to confusion with people assuming that they meant a manned landing by 2017. Bad translations and wishful thinking.

Back in 1999 I was at the BBC commentating about the 30th anniversary of Apollo 11.   When asked when we would return to the Moon I said that I expected China would have had its first piloted flight by 2005 and could put a man on the Moon in time for the 50th anniversary.   Rex Hall told me that later in the day there was a report on a space philately group, saying that "someone" had been on the BBC predicting a Chinese manned landing on the Moon by 2005 .............

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2018
« Reply #5 on: 12/14/2013 07:25 AM »
I would love to know the rationale behind the Chinese deciding to launch the ascent stage from the lunar surface into selenocentric orbit, do lunar-orbit rendezvous and then return to Earth, rather than the simpler Soviet approach of a direct return from the lunar surface.

Admittedly the Soviet design without a pitch-over capability meant that the landings were restricted to 55-60 deg E, but the addition of attitude-control thrusters could overcome this and widen the potential landing areas.

Offline darkbluenine

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2018
« Reply #6 on: 12/14/2013 01:42 PM »
I would love to know the rationale behind the Chinese deciding to launch the ascent stage from the lunar surface into selenocentric orbit, do lunar-orbit rendezvous and then return to Earth, rather than the simpler Soviet approach of a direct return from the lunar surface.

Probably to demonstrate LOR for a future sample return or crewed mission.

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2018
« Reply #7 on: 12/14/2013 03:16 PM »
I would love to know the rationale behind the Chinese deciding to launch the ascent stage from the lunar surface into selenocentric orbit, do lunar-orbit rendezvous and then return to Earth, rather than the simpler Soviet approach of a direct return from the lunar surface.
Probably to demonstrate LOR for a future sample return or crewed mission.

Sven Grahn on Facebook made the same suggestion about a crewed mission, but it still seems to over-complicate what is already a complicated mission profile for an automatic spacecraft.   Especially since the Chinese have yet to commit to a manned lunar programme, never mind the flight profile.

Offline savuporo

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2018
« Reply #8 on: 12/14/2013 03:21 PM »
Another line of wishful thinking : i hope they are targeting polar craters, and they need the orbiter overhead for communications relay.
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline Stan Black

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2018
« Reply #9 on: 12/14/2013 06:11 PM »
I would love to know the rationale behind the Chinese deciding to launch the ascent stage from the lunar surface into selenocentric orbit, do lunar-orbit rendezvous and then return to Earth, rather than the simpler Soviet approach of a direct return from the lunar surface.
Probably to demonstrate LOR for a future sample return or crewed mission.

Sven Grahn on Facebook made the same suggestion about a crewed mission, but it still seems to over-complicate what is already a complicated mission profile for an automatic spacecraft.   Especially since the Chinese have yet to commit to a manned lunar programme, never mind the flight profile.

Will this help with Mars sample return?

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2018
« Reply #10 on: 12/14/2013 06:29 PM »
I would love to know the rationale behind the Chinese deciding to launch the ascent stage from the lunar surface into selenocentric orbit, do lunar-orbit rendezvous and then return to Earth, rather than the simpler Soviet approach of a direct return from the lunar surface.
Probably to demonstrate LOR for a future sample return or crewed mission.
Sven Grahn on Facebook made the same suggestion about a crewed mission, but it still seems to over-complicate what is already a complicated mission profile for an automatic spacecraft.   Especially since the Chinese have yet to commit to a manned lunar programme, never mind the flight profile.
Will this help with Mars sample return?

Yes it would ....... are the Chinese hoping for that about 8-10 years after Chang'e 5?   I cannot remember.

Offline Kryten

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2018
« Reply #11 on: 12/14/2013 06:39 PM »
 What's the source for the 'and rover' in the title? I haven't seen any sources claiming one will be on this mission.

Offline plutogno

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2018
« Reply #12 on: 12/16/2013 04:17 PM »
testing the recovery of CE-5

Offline savuporo

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2018
« Reply #13 on: 12/16/2013 04:19 PM »
This thread title should be edited to 2017 according to multiple reports

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2013-12/16/c_132971252.htm
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Offline Star One

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Offline beidou

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2018
« Reply #15 on: 12/16/2013 05:46 PM »
Good article from Aviation Week.

 http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_12_16_2013_p0-647298.xml

Unfortunately, no new information has been disclosed in this article:(

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #16 on: 12/17/2013 08:07 AM »
Here's a nice colour image of Chang'e 5, including the orbiter. Also attached is an early Chinese paper on the lander. These were previously posted here in the public NSF forum (I don't know who posted them).
« Last Edit: 12/17/2013 08:11 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline plutogno

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #17 on: 12/17/2013 04:46 PM »
an exhibition panel on CE-5

Offline Lsquirrel

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #18 on: 12/30/2013 01:02 AM »
Here's a reentry module concept,may be Chang'e-5
« Last Edit: 12/30/2013 01:02 AM by Lsquirrel »

Offline Artyom.

Preparation for Chang'e-5 launch on schedule

Preparation for the 2017 launch of China's lunar probe Chang'e-5 is going as planned, the country's leading space scientist Ye Peijian told Xinhua on Saturday.

Chang'e-5, as part of China's third-phase lunar program, is expected to bring back moon rock samples to Earth, a move hailed by Ye as "a historic moment" for the country.

China's lunar program covers three stages. It completed the second phase after the Chang'e-3 probe soft-landed on the Moon on Dec. 14, with the country's first moon rover Yutu (Jade Rabbit) aboard.

But Yutu has experienced a mechanical problem that scientists are still trying to repair.

Ye said the Chang'e-3 mission has helped China to better understand the lunar environment and has paved the way for further explorations.

As the backup probe of Chang'e-3, Chang'e-4 should not repeat the mission, but do something more "innovative and meaningful", said Ye, without elaborating.

The more sophisticated Chang'e-5 mission, including unmanned sampling and returning, requires technology breakthroughs in moon surface takeoff, sampling encapsulation, rendezvous and docking in lunar orbit, as well as high-speed Earth reentry.

To make sure the returning mission is a success, a Chang'e-5 test probe will be launched this year to rehearse the route, Ye disclosed.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-03/01/c_133152111.htm
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #20 on: 06/18/2014 07:03 AM »
Here's the latest artwork of Chang'e 5 that I got from this presentation. It seems to be missing the support structure for the ascent stage. You can see the antenna on the orbital module. I'm not sure what the purple things on the sides are. Perhaps Helium pressurisation tanks. The ascent stage looks like it has solar panels on top. Launch is still scheduled for 2017.

http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/pdf/pres/copuos2014/tech-06.pdf
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #21 on: 06/19/2014 09:35 AM »
Here's the latest artwork of Chang'e 5 that I got from this presentation. It seems to be missing the support structure for the ascent stage. You can see the antenna on the orbital module. I'm not sure what the purple things on the sides are. Perhaps Helium pressurisation tanks. The ascent stage looks like it has solar panels on top. Launch is still scheduled for 2017.

http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/pdf/pres/copuos2014/tech-06.pdf

I think the solar panels are attached to the descent stage, and are folded up.
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Offline Nibb31

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #22 on: 06/20/2014 12:50 PM »
Am I the only one who thinks that the descent reentry module is way oversized for a 2Kg sample? It seems the be bigger than the entire ascent module and looks like an exact scaled replica of the Shenzhou descent reentry module.

I was expecting it to be about the size of the Stardust reentry capsule. A smaller capsule would allow a much simpler direct ascent mission profile.

The only reason I can think of for using such a big capsule, is to test the heatshield and reentry parameters for future manned lunar missions. That would also explain the LOR mission profile. Could there be any other reason?
« Last Edit: 06/20/2014 02:43 PM by Nibb31 »

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #23 on: 06/20/2014 02:18 PM »
Am I the only one who thinks that the descent module is way oversized for a 2Kg sample? It seems the be bigger than the entire ascent module and looks like an exact scaled replica of the Shenzhou descent module.

I was expecting it to be about the size of the Stardust reentry capsule. A smaller capsule would allow a much simpler direct ascent mission profile.

The only reason I can think of for using such a big capsule, is to test the heatshield and reentry parameters for future manned lunar missions. That would also explain the LOR mission profile. Could there be any other reason?

When you say "descent module" I think you mean the reentry capsule, as opposed to the lander, right?

I'm roughly eyeballing it, but the lander is in the same general size category as the JPL MoonRise lander for sample return.

I do suspect that the CE-5 is in many ways an engineering test vehicle for gaining experience for a human lunar mission. Everything seems to be a bit larger than it needs to be if their goal is simply to get some dirt and bring it back.

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #24 on: 06/25/2014 07:36 AM »
From

P.J. Ye, J.C. Huang, Z.Z. Sun, M.F. Yang and L.Z. Meng, "The process and experience in the development of Chinese lunar probe," Science China Technological Sciences, vol. 44, pp. 543-558, 24 June 2014.
http://tech.scichina.com:8082/sciE/CN/volumn/volumn_6889.shtml#

Attached is another artwork of Chang'e 5 taken from the paper. Below is a summary of the Chang'e 5 mission.

Launch mass is about 8 t. Flight consists of 11 stages. Flight time of about 1 month. Five day trans Lunar flight. Lunar orbit is 200 km. Descent and ascent stage separate from orbiter and enter 15x200 km orbit. After landing and transfer of samples to ascent stage, the ascent stage is launched to a 15x180 km orbit. The ascent stage docks to the orbiter and transfers the samples across. The ascent stage undocks from orbiter. After 10 days in Lunar orbit, the orbiter fires to send the return capsule to Earth in 5 days. At 5000 km, the orbiter separates from the capsule. After 20 minutes at 120 km altitude. A semi ballistic skip reentry is performed with altitude decreasing to 60 km and then increasing to 100 to 140 km. Parachutes are deployed at 10 km altitude. Landing is at Siziwang Banner.

"Management method for future manned lunar and deep space exploration program services."
« Last Edit: 06/25/2014 07:38 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #25 on: 07/01/2014 02:26 AM »
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2544/1

Red tortoise, blue turtle

by Dwayne A. Day
Monday, June 30, 2014

It wasn’t that long ago that English-language news articles were stating that China was planning on landing humans on the Moon by 2017. In fact, as late as 2007 some articles were claiming that this would happen by 2010. Of course, they were wrong, and even the 2017 claims have faded. Conducting a post-mortem on those articles, it was obvious even at the time that many of them were the result of translation errors. Chinese officials announced plans for unmanned lunar orbital missions by 2010 and lunar sample return missions by 2017 and somebody dropped the “un” part of “unmanned” and jumped to conclusions that the Chinese were going to send humans to the Moon in the very near future. (See, for instance, “The phony space race”, The Space Review, June 9, 2003—yes, 2003.) Other articles making these claims were less error than malice—people selectively quoting sources in order to try and justify a US human lunar return by claiming that we were in a race with China. They can consider themselves lucky that the noise of the Internet frequently drowns out mistakes and malice in its maelstrom.

In fact, once you start looking back at this subject over the past decade, it becomes quite apparent that the Chinese government was both open and accurate about its human spaceflight and lunar exploration plans, even while concealing virtually everything about their military space program. As early as 2007 Chinese officials were discussing their plans for human spaceflight, indicating that the country would launch a series of increasingly ambitious human orbital spacecraft with the goal of developing a multi-component space station by 2020. Human lunar missions were not in their portfolio. However, they also indicated that they had a three-phase robotic lunar exploration plan. Phase I was to orbit the Moon with robotic spacecraft. Phase II was to land a rover on the Moon. And Phase III was to eventually conduct a robotic lunar sample return mission by 2017. (See “History doesn’t echo, it reverbs”, The Space Review, February 10, 2010.) The Chinese did not provide all of the details of their plans, but over time they revealed more information, and so far they have accomplished the first two phases.




Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #26 on: 07/04/2014 05:34 AM »
Thanks Blackstar. That's a very good article. I especially liked the last two lines about the two tortoises. Thanks also for the acknowledgement.

For some reason, it got into my head that China would make a decision on a crewed Lunar landing in 2015, but the 2011 Chinese space policy paper that I thought I got that information from only says that China will only study crewed Lunar landings, presumably until the next five year plan in 2016.

"China will conduct studies on the preliminary plan for a human lunar landing."
« Last Edit: 07/04/2014 05:36 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar probe and rover, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #27 on: 07/04/2014 11:04 PM »
Great article Blackstar. The last time was epic. Personally, I believe that the Chinese are being deliberately slow. They want to be looked down. And there's zero economic incentive for now. Probably more worried about having ITAR free components for their satellite. And doing the propulsion, launch site and LV transition. They'll match Russian 90s technology, at competitive prices.
Meanwhile, they are demonstrating planetary capabilities on par with the ISS partners. They might get to play with the big boys now.

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Offline plutogno

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #30 on: 02/22/2015 07:59 AM »
a Chinese presentation to the UNOOSA which gives some detail of CE-5 and clarifies somewhat the future of CE-4
http://www.unoosa.org/pdf/pres/stsc2015/tech-06E.pdf

in particular:
Quote
Chang’e 4 is being carried on deepen argument and proposed technical improvements to develop lunar or other aster [sic] exploration now.

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #31 on: 02/22/2015 08:06 AM »
Thank you for posting this Plutogno.   Fascinating information.

Could someone translate the Chinese captions on slides 14 and 16 please?

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #32 on: 02/22/2015 05:55 PM »
in particular:
Quote
Chang’e 4 is being carried on deepen argument and proposed technical improvements to develop lunar or other aster [sic] exploration now.

That's a little hard to understand. I interpret "carried on" to mean that it is still ongoing. I don't know what "deepen argument" is supposed to mean. I am guessing that "aster" means "astronomy" and is referring to the possibility of carrying another telescope like they did before.

I know that I'm a broken record on this, but I would really like to see them fly CE-4 and another rover. They did not get much mobility experience with that rover, and the fact that it has a ground-penetrating radar gives it a lot of value. I'd like to see them do that again and operate the rover over much longer distances. I hope they have figured out what failed on Yutu.

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #33 on: 02/22/2015 06:37 PM »
Aster may mean asteroid, following the Chang'E 2 Toutatis flyby.  A dedicated NEA mission, conceivably even a lander, would be a great mission. 

On the other hand, I would also like to see a second lander/rover on the Moon.  Earlier discussion focused on flying the sampling hardware for CE5 so it could be tested before the actual sample mission.  Plus, aiming for enhance mobility would be a good idea.  Given the quality of LRO NAC images, I think a Lunokhod-style real-time driving scenario, rather than a Mars rover scenario (images, hazard mapping, path selection, upload commands for every drive) would be much more likely to achieve long range traverses.

Phil

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #34 on: 02/22/2015 07:46 PM »
Aster may mean asteroid, following the Chang'E 2 Toutatis flyby.  A dedicated NEA mission, conceivably even a lander, would be a great mission. 


Yeah, that could be it, although in that case it refers to lunar OR asteroid, which implies that CE-4 could be a non-lunar mission?

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #36 on: 03/06/2015 09:46 PM »
From China Daily: China set to launch fifth lunar probe in 2017.

"As the backup probe of Chang'e 3, Chang'e 4 will be adapted to verify technologies for Chang'e 5, according to Xinhua."

That implies that CE-4 will indeed launch. But what will it carry?

I could see a rather straightforward path--take off the astronomy payload and include a basic sample arm or drill or something related to the CE-5 sample collection system. Include a second rover.

(I'll admit that this is my own bias--it's what I think is logical and what I'd like to see them do.)

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #37 on: 10/13/2015 03:30 AM »
A lot more information just released in the 2015 AGU meeting in San Francisco (found it thanks to Emily L's retweet) from the mineral spectrometer instrument group:

https://agu.confex.com/agu/fm15/meetingapp.cgi/Paper/68812

Quote
The Chinese Chang’e 5 (CE-5) lunar sample return mission is scheduled to launch in 2017 to bring back surface regolith and drill samples from the northeastern Oceanus Procellarum region on the Moon. The Lunar Mineralogical Spectrometer (LMS) on the CE-5 lander is a VIS/IR imaging spectrometer (0.48 μm -3.2 μm) designed to analyze the mineralogical composition of the sample return site. LMS employs acousto-optic tunable filters (AOTFs) and is composed of a VIS/NIR module (0.48 μm -1.450 μm) and an IR module (1.4 μm -3.2 μm). It has spectral resolution in the range of 5-25 nm, with a field of view (FOV) of 3°×3°. An aluminum plate and an Infragold plate are used as calibration targets in the VIS/NIR and IR spectral range, respectively. Before launch, a ground verification test of LMS needs to be conducted in order to: [...]
-DaviD-

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #38 on: 10/13/2015 04:53 AM »
From China Daily: China set to launch fifth lunar probe in 2017.

"As the backup probe of Chang'e 3, Chang'e 4 will be adapted to verify technologies for Chang'e 5, according to Xinhua."

That implies that CE-4 will indeed launch. But what will it carry?

I could see a rather straightforward path--take off the astronomy payload and include a basic sample arm or drill or something related to the CE-5 sample collection system. Include a second rover.

(I'll admit that this is my own bias--it's what I think is logical and what I'd like to see them do.)

Does this imply that it will fly first?  Or is it just being used as a terrestrial testbed prior to its own flight later?
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #39 on: 10/13/2015 08:30 AM »
Does this imply that it will fly first?  Or is it just being used as a terrestrial testbed prior to its own flight later?

The Chang'e-5 Lunar sample return mission is flying first in 2017. After the successful landing of Chang'e-3, there was some speculation that the Chang'e-4 backup mission might be cancelled. However, it was later confirmed that it will be flying in 2018, targeted for a far side landing.
« Last Edit: 10/13/2015 08:37 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #40 on: 10/13/2015 04:53 PM »
Tweet from IAC:

Peter B. de Selding ‏@pbdes · Oct 12
China space admin chief Xu: Lunar sample return mission in 2017, lander on far side in 2018, lander/rover combination in 2020.#IAC2015

(de Selding is with spacenews.com)

So the sequence can now be extended to CE6, with the last mission a repeat of CE3, but presumably intended to fix the longevity problem for Yutu and maybe fly different instruments.

I think the statement about CE4 verifying technologies for CE5 is out of date.  That was mooted a year or more ago but doesn't make sense now.  In that scheme CE4 would have tested the sample acquisition system.

« Last Edit: 10/13/2015 04:56 PM by Phil Stooke »

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #41 on: 10/13/2015 05:00 PM »
 So what is Chang'e 4 carrying, if it's no longer a lander/rover combination?

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #42 on: 10/13/2015 05:22 PM »
Don't know yet.  In the past there was talk of a small radio telescope.  It might also do local analysis of composition with APXS on an arm, IR spectroscopy etc.

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #43 on: 10/14/2015 05:58 PM »
I saw his tweet and was intrigued by that. He does not say that the Chinese specifically ruled out a rover for CE-4. It was included in some previous comments. But it sorta makes sense to not include it. They're going to have enough issues operating on the far side via relay spacecraft without having to control a rover. So put the rover on a later mission.

I was hoping that they would try to target CE-6 for the lunar farside as well. A sample from the South Pole-Aitken Basin would be a major science accomplishment. It is prioritized in the U.S. planetary science decadal survey and lunar scientists think it is pretty important. If China grabbed it, they'd be checking off a major lunar science goal.


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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #44 on: 10/14/2015 10:21 PM »
Does this imply that it will fly first?  Or is it just being used as a terrestrial testbed prior to its own flight later?

The Chang'e-5 Lunar sample return mission is flying first in 2017. After the successful landing of Chang'e-3, there was some speculation that the Chang'e-4 backup mission might be cancelled. However, it was later confirmed that it will be flying in 2018, targeted for a far side landing.

That's is my understanding also, however the language in Blackstar's link seemed ambiguous WRT timing, possibly a translation issue
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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #45 on: 10/16/2015 10:19 PM »
Here is the news report from IAC. CE-4 will go  on the far side and will fly after CE5.


http://www.chinanews.com/sh/2015/10-09/7561057.shtml

CE-5 in ~2017, sample collection aimed to be 2 KG
CE-4 relay sat in late 2018, mission length 3 years aimed to support CE-4 Lander.
CE-4 Lander in ~2020, aimed at farside of the moon. May carry low frequency radio astronomy module.

edit: there is speculation on the 9ifly that if CE-5 is successful, CE-6 may be squeezed between CE-4 relay sat and CE-4 lander for a farside sample return, while CE-4 will focus on radio astronomy. Doing so will take full advantage of the relay sat.

http://bbs.9ifly.cn/thread-5819-29-2.html
« Last Edit: 10/17/2015 03:36 AM by luhai167 »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #46 on: 09/16/2016 10:20 AM »
Launch in second half of 2017.

"China also aims to send the Chang'e-5 probe to the moon and return with lunar samples in the second half of 2017, and to land a probe on Mars by 2021. "

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-09/16/c_135689907.htm
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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #47 on: 09/17/2016 01:34 PM »
Much earlier in this thread I was mentioning that I thought that the mission profile for Chang'E 5 was over-complicated and there were suggestions that this was because the profile could be adapted for either a Mars sample return mission or - using spacecraft on a totally different scale - for a piloted lunar landing mission.

My thoughts about the over-complicated profile still remain and I am worried that this might be the first major spacecraft (rather than launch vehicle) failure in the Chinese space programme.   Let us hope that I am being too pessimistic of course!

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #48 on: 09/19/2016 07:02 AM »
Well, the simpler Soviet approach was only able to return at most 170 g of material. I believe Chang'e 5 is aiming to return at least 2 kg of material, which is possible due to the use of the more complicated Lunar orbit rendezvous mission.
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Offline redliox

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #49 on: 09/19/2016 07:08 AM »
Well, the simpler Soviet approach was only able to return at most 170 g of material. I believe Chang'e 5 is aiming to return at least 2 kg of material, which is possible due to the use of the more complicated Lunar orbit rendezvous mission.

If they can get a sample in the solid kilogram range I'd tip my hat to them for their efforts.  The next trick will be seeing what they'll do next after a LSR.
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Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #50 on: 09/19/2016 12:02 PM »
"at most 170 g of material."

Also, only from a very restricted region of the lunar surface because of the dynamics of the simple direct-to-Earth trajectory.  The Chinese approach should allow sample collection from a much larger region, if not the entire lunar surface.

Offline plutogno

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #51 on: 09/19/2016 06:24 PM »
The Chinese approach should allow sample collection from a much larger region, if not the entire lunar surface.

Exactly. and in fact they have hinted at the fact that CE-6 may return samples from the poles

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #52 on: 09/20/2016 03:53 PM »
I have seen that stated in Chinese media, but I suspect it is a misunderstanding, also common in western media, of 'South Pole - Aitken' (SPA).  The Chang'E 4 site is almost certainly in the Apollo basin in SPA, but I note that at:

http://english.cas.cn/newsroom/news/201606/t20160615_164411.shtml

The headline says 'south pole' even though the article says 'Aitken basin'.

I think CE6, if it flies, will also go to SPA, meaning the Apollo basin in SPA or somewhere near it.  I have seen other Chinese references to follow-on (post-CE6) missions to the poles, but I think they are for the next decade.

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #54 on: 10/27/2016 07:47 PM »
https://chinaspaceflight.com/satellite/Deepspace/CE-5/CE-5.html

Nice view of the drill structure here.  Presumably there are monitoring cameras, but it's not obvious where they are.

Offline plutogno

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #55 on: 11/05/2016 01:25 PM »
Chang'e 5 Wows Zhuhai Airshow

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #56 on: 11/06/2016 09:49 PM »
Some screen grabs.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #57 on: 01/01/2017 09:16 PM »
https://www.chinaspaceflight.com/satellite/Deepspace/CE-5/CE-5.html

Some new images of the CE5 return capsule being prepared.  I am still waiting for news on the landing site location... maybe that will come at LPSC in March.

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2017
« Reply #59 on: 01/04/2017 09:30 PM »
Well, 'around' December.


Online Galactic Penguin SST

Well, 'around' December.
The mass of the whole spacecraft was reported to be 8.2 tonnes.
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Offline Nordren

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Chang'e-5 to launch in late November (Xinhua).

Offline Blackstar

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Repeating the November story:

http://gbtimes.com/china/china-attempt-moon-sample-return-mission-november

Should this thread migrate over to the science thread? After all, China's space science accomplishments are now increasingly in the same league as those of NASA and ESA.

Offline russianhalo117

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Repeating the November story:

http://gbtimes.com/china/china-attempt-moon-sample-return-mission-november

Should this thread migrate over to the science thread? After all, China's space science accomplishments are now increasingly in the same league as those of NASA and ESA.
probably, but tell Satori or Chris (et cetera) so that the move will occur properly.

Offline Blackstar

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Well, I thought that maybe the people reading and posting to this thread might have some views about whether it should move, and they should sound off before the hand of god steps in and simply makes a move.

I have issues with everything being classified by "launchers" anyway, since a lot of what China is doing is best categorized in other ways, not simply because of the rockets.

Offline russianhalo117

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Well, I thought that maybe the people reading and posting to this thread might have some views about whether it should move, and they should sound off before the hand of god steps in and simply makes a move.

I have issues with everything being classified by "launchers" anyway, since a lot of what China is doing is best categorized in other ways, not simply because of the rockets.
I feel that all satellites after completion of ETOPs phase should move to the satellites section.

Offline Bynaus

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Quote
Should this thread migrate over to the science thread? After all, China's space science accomplishments are now increasingly in the same league as those of NASA and ESA.

I do not want to belittle the achievements of the Chang'E missions in any way, they are very impressive and yes, they are certainly catching up with NASA/ESA - but it seems to me that these missions are still rather achievement driven, not science driven. Its about landing, sampling and returning - WHAT is being sampled is secondary. In that sense, its rather about engineering than about science. You can also see that from the fact that the missions were announced long before the target regions were (perhaps the most science driven mission is Chang'E 4, but even that one is now targeted at achieving a "first", i.e.., the first landing - ever - on the far side). So in that sense, I guess this is the right sub-forum. That said, I agree, "launchers" doesn't quite cut it.
« Last Edit: 01/23/2017 06:50 PM by Bynaus »

Offline baldusi

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Won't they be sampling the Atkins Basin? That's probably terrific science.

Offline savuporo

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I do not want to belittle the achievements of the Chang'E missions in any way, they are very impressive and yes, they are certainly catching up with NASA/ESA - but it seems to me that these missions are still rather achievement driven, not science driven.
Being engineering rather than science driven is a compliment, not belittling.
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Offline Blackstar

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You can also see that from the fact that the missions were announced long before the target regions were

NASA does the same with Mars rovers--approves the mission long before choosing landing sites.

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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My preference is to leave this thread here as this is a short term mission, ranging from one to three weeks.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline vjkane

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My preference is to leave this thread here as this is a short term mission, ranging from one to three weeks.
If NASA approves its own sample return mission, it will be of a similarly short duration.  But I don't think it will be covered under US launch vehicles in this forum.

Offline Blackstar

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Also, you don't judge the value of sample return by the duration of the mission to collect the sample. You judge its value first and foremost by the quality of the samples. But if you are going to make a judgment based upon time, it should be based upon the duration of the sample analysis--it only takes a short time to pick the stuff up, but years to analyze it. In fact, the best Apollo sample analysis is being done today, four and a half decades after the samples were returned.
« Last Edit: 01/24/2017 06:49 PM by Blackstar »

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My preference is to leave this thread here as this is a short term mission, ranging from one to three weeks.
If NASA approves its own sample return mission, it will be of a similarly short duration.  But I don't think it will be covered under US launch vehicles in this forum.

The mission will be covered on the Chinese section before launch, then moved to the Live Coverage section for launch and then the scientific mission will possibly be moved to the Space Science Coverage section.

Offline Lar

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My preference is to leave this thread here as this is a short term mission, ranging from one to three weeks.
If NASA approves its own sample return mission, it will be of a similarly short duration.  But I don't think it will be covered under US launch vehicles in this forum.

The mission will be covered on the Chinese section before launch, then moved to the Live Coverage section for launch and then the scientific mission will possibly be moved to the Space Science Coverage section.

Also for those that think things might not be organized correctly, we have a forum section to discuss that. How to categorize and subdivide things is always a fun topic to discuss, and there is no one right answer,  but if improvements are possible thrashing it out there will be goodness.

The feedback thread is a good place to start, I think, but if it spawns a lot of discussion ... (wait for it) we'll fork a thread.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32793
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Offline MATTBLAK

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I'm looking forward to this historic and excellent mission. Lunar Exploration is too much on the back burner. I hope it helps inspire the concept of further manned missions someday.
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Offline savuporo

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I'm looking forward to this historic and excellent mission. Lunar Exploration is too much on the back burner. I hope it helps inspire the concept of further manned missions someday.

Lunar exploration is not exactly on back burner. Just in last decade

ESA SMART-1 2004
JAXA Selene  2007
CNSA Chang'e-1 2007
ISRO Chandrayaan-1 2008
NASA LRO/LCROSS 2009
CNSA Change-2 2010
NASA Artemis 2011
NASA GRAIL 2012
NASA LADEE 2013
CNSA Change-3 2013
CNSA Change-5-T1 2014

Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline MATTBLAK

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Those are good missions - but I guess I'll clarify my statement by saying that I wish there were more rovers and particularly landers and rovers on the Farside and poles - and human crews, too! ;)
« Last Edit: 01/25/2017 05:45 AM by MATTBLAK »
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Won't they be sampling the Atkins Basin? That's probably terrific science.

You mean the South-Pole Aitken Basin (SPA)? That would indeed be terrific. However, for Chang'E 5, AFAIK the target is sample return from the near side, probably Bay of Rainbows (Sinus Iridium) again. But the SPA is a potential target for Change'E 4 and 6.h

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My understanding at present is that the CE5 site is probably in NE Oceanus Procellarum, probably in one of several 'young' lava flows - erupted around 2 billion years ago, maybe, much younger than Apollo samples.  There are several potential young flows mapped out by crater density studies, including SW of Aristarchus.  I hope LPSC in March will include something about this.

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According to http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2017/03-01/8162455.shtml Chang'e-5 will arrive at Wenchang in August for launch "around late November". The joint module tests will be done after arrival at the launch site.  ::)

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Offline Phil Stooke

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Another update on CE-5, this time the landing site, from an abstract at the European Geosciences meeting in Vienna in April:

http://meetingorganizer.copernicus.org/EGU2017/EGU2017-2026.pdf

I have posted a summary with maps here:

http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=7760&pid=234843&st=90&#entry234843


Offline Dalhousie

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According to http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2017/03-01/8162455.shtml Chang'e-5 will arrive at Wenchang in August for launch "around late November". The joint module tests will be done after arrival at the launch site.  ::)

Why the eye roll?
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Offline Star One

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According to http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2017/03-01/8162455.shtml Chang'e-5 will arrive at Wenchang in August for launch "around late November". The joint module tests will be done after arrival at the launch site.  ::)

Why the eye roll?

Yes I meant to ask that as well?

Online Galactic Penguin SST

According to http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2017/03-01/8162455.shtml Chang'e-5 will arrive at Wenchang in August for launch "around late November". The joint module tests will be done after arrival at the launch site.  ::)

Why the eye roll?

Yes I meant to ask that as well?

Just to indicate that I thought the decision to do those tests until after arrival at launch site was interesting. ;)

The same article also indicated that the lunar samples would be back at Earth before 2017 ends if all goes well. ;)
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On a general note, I think that the Chinese have been extremely fortunate not to have suffered a serious failure
 in their lunar and piloted space programmes.

I think that this is perhaps the most complicated unmanned mission (and probably piloted mission!) that the Chinese have attempted and I wonder when their first major failure will be coming.

Offline Star One

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On a general note, I think that the Chinese have been extremely fortunate not to have suffered a serious failure
 in their lunar and piloted space programmes.

I think that this is perhaps the most complicated unmanned mission (and probably piloted mission!) that the Chinese have attempted and I wonder when their first major failure will be coming.

What makes you say that they are fortunate not to have suffered a major failure?

Offline Phillip Clark

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Don't want to fly off-topic here!  But since i grew up during the 1960s i was aware of the failures that the Soviet union and US had in their lunar programmes, also problems encountered during piloted flights.   For the Chinese things to have gone extremely smoothly, although I am sure that they have had minor hiccups that have not been widely reported.

Offline baldusi

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Don't want to fly off-topic here!  But since i grew up during the 1960s i was aware of the failures that the Soviet union and US had in their lunar programmes, also problems encountered during piloted flights.   For the Chinese things to have gone extremely smoothly, although I am sure that they have had minor hiccups that have not been widely reported.
They had the Yutu mobility problem, for example. But I would ascribe their track record to solid engineering practices and conservative schedule and objectives. They have taken a long time to match feats done in years (or even months) many years ago by the super powers.
This particular mission, won't make anything not already done. And they have had a lot of time to specify, simulate, certify, manufacture, etc.

Offline Dalhousie

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According to http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2017/03-01/8162455.shtml Chang'e-5 will arrive at Wenchang in August for launch "around late November". The joint module tests will be done after arrival at the launch site.  ::)

Why the eye roll?

Yes I meant to ask that as well?

Just to indicate that I thought the decision to do those tests until after arrival at launch site was interesting. ;)

The same article also indicated that the lunar samples would be back at Earth before 2017 ends if all goes well. ;)

OK.  Just remember that eye rolls are normally taken to indicate "how dumb is this?" rather than "this is interesting/surprising/unusal"!
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Offline Dalhousie

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On a general note, I think that the Chinese have been extremely fortunate not to have suffered a serious failure
 in their lunar and piloted space programmes.

I think that this is perhaps the most complicated unmanned mission (and probably piloted mission!) that the Chinese have attempted and I wonder when their first major failure will be coming.

Solid success is that an accident but the result of solid, careful work.
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Phillip Clark

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On a general note, I think that the Chinese have been extremely fortunate not to have suffered a serious failure
 in their lunar and piloted space programmes.
I think that this is perhaps the most complicated unmanned mission (and probably piloted mission!) that the Chinese have attempted and I wonder when their first major failure will be coming.
Solid success is that an accident but the result of solid, careful work.

Agreed.   The Chinese are extremely thorough.  But everyone eventually has a high profile failure, and naturally I am hoping that it won't be this mission!   Let's look forward to the flight. :)

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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This particular mission, won't make anything not already done. And they have had a lot of time to specify, simulate, certify, manufacture, etc.

This will be the first time that a robotic rendezvous and docking will be performed around another heavenly body besides the Earth.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Phillip Clark

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This particular mission, won't make anything not already done. And they have had a lot of time to specify, simulate, certify, manufacture, etc.
This will be the first time that a robotic rendezvous and docking will be performed around another heavenly body besides the Earth.

Which they will need for a future Mars sample return mission, of course.

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Offline Dalhousie

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This particular mission, won't make anything not already done. And they have had a lot of time to specify, simulate, certify, manufacture, etc.
This will be the first time that a robotic rendezvous and docking will be performed around another heavenly body besides the Earth.

Which they will need for a future Mars sample return mission, of course.

Both rover and sample return missions appear to be designed with proving technology for Mars in mind.
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

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Chinese video showing the lander, ascent stage and return capsule under assembly.

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Some screen grabs.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

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http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=7760&pid=234883&st=90&#entry234883

Link to a post (#100 on that page) in another forum where I have illustrated the location of one of the Chang'e 5 T1 images - to show that it really did image the CE5 landing area as announced.  I have only ever seen 2 of these images of the landing area, and the other is a small area, about 1 km across, which I have not found yet.

Offline savuporo

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This particular mission, won't make anything not already done. And they have had a lot of time to specify, simulate, certify, manufacture, etc.

This will be the first time that a robotic rendezvous and docking will be performed around another heavenly body besides the Earth.

Chang'e-2 and 3 both also did things that were not already done before, people tend to dismiss that. I'm sure there will be more novel details on C5 as well.
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Chang'e-5 will return samples from the Moon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJrmmWnU8HE?list=PLpGTA7wMEDFjz0Zx93ifOsi92FwylSAS3
Chang'e-5 is scheduled to enter the launch site in August, preparing for its launch by Long March-5 around November 2017.

Offline savuporo

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ESA tracking collaboration (re-)confirmed

http://gbtimes.com/china/esa-assist-chinas-change-5-mission-moon-and-back

Quote
“On the ESA side the cooperation has allowed us to gain experience on Moon activities, including tracking of the critical landing phase for Chang'e3 and for the reentry of the Chang'e-5T1 capsule, which required also delivery of high precision tracking information for localisation of the lander and of the capsule on the surface. This is extremely useful experience in view of future ESA and international activities on the Moon.”
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Landing Site:

Offline Phil Stooke

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A lot more detail of this landing site in reply #81 in this thread.

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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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China discloses Chang'e 5 lunar probe landing site.

From the article. Attached is a corrected and enlarged version of the landing map.

"China's Chang'e 5 lunar probe is expected to land in the Mons Rumker region, and to take moon samples back to earth at the end of the year, according to a Chinese space official."

Here's a good image showing where Mons Rumker is, but that is quite far from what is shown in the screen capture. The location seems to be between Foucault Crater and Sharp Crater.
« Last Edit: 06/09/2017 10:24 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
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Here's something I am putting together for a blog post. Clementine color ratio superimposed on the map I made earlier (see post #81 in this thread). The gray strip is missing Clementine data. A few small data gaps elsewhere have been cosmetically patched (since this product is not for scientific analysis). The landing site will be in the blue unit.


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Does anyone here know when the (assumption correct?) monthly lunar launch windows for Chang'e-5 are?

Also, speculation question: Would Chang'e-5 remain as the next payload for Long March-5, or would another payload substitute for the CZ-5 return to flight?
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Offline Phil Stooke

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CE5 will almost certainly be delayed.  There will have to be at least one additional test flight to certify the launch vehicle, maybe two, so the delay is likely to be for a year or so.  Plutogno said elsewhere that CE4 might now fly before CE5 and I think he may be right.

I think the original launch was targeted for very late November this year.

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Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - November 2017
« Reply #109 on: 07/04/2017 07:44 PM »
CE5 will almost certainly be delayed.  There will have to be at least one additional test flight to certify the launch vehicle, maybe two, so the delay is likely to be for a year or so.  Plutogno said elsewhere that CE4 might now fly before CE5 and I think he may be right.

I think the original launch was targeted for very late November this year.

I just wondered if testing the Long March 5 with CE4 first might have been a better way to go?
« Last Edit: 07/04/2017 07:44 PM by Star One »

Offline zubenelgenubi

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CE5 will almost certainly be delayed.  There will have to be at least one additional test flight to certify the launch vehicle, maybe two, so the delay is likely to be for a year or so.  Plutogno said elsewhere that CE4 might now fly before CE5 and I think he may be right.

I think the original launch was targeted for very late November this year.

I just wondered if testing the Long March 5 with CE4 first might have been a better way to go?

Looking at Gunter's Space Page, none of the other lunar missions for the next 1 or 2 years, as they are currently designed, appear to need the capabilities of CZ-5.

CE-4 is launching separately from the CE-4 Relay orbiter.  I guess it's more trouble than it's worth, at this late date, to integrate both payloads for a CZ-5 launch.  But, that's my opinion as an enthusiast.
« Last Edit: 07/04/2017 08:03 PM by zubenelgenubi »
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Testing a new launch vehicle with a precious lunar probe is not a good idea at all.  Test it with something you can afford to lose.   

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Testing a new launch vehicle with a precious lunar probe is not a good idea at all.  Test it with something you can afford to lose.   

I meant as far as testing CZ-5 in a mission to the moon it would be better to do this first with CE4 than CE5.

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Testing a new launch vehicle with a precious lunar probe is not a good idea at all.  Test it with something you can afford to lose.   

Unless the calendar year is late 50ies or early 60ies. Then just go ahead and build multiple spares, as a good portion of the launched probes will never get to TLI
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There will have to be at least one additional test flight to certify the launch vehicle, maybe two, so the delay is likely to be for a year or so. 

China almost never do RTF test/re-certification flight after failures. Second CZ-2E was an embarrassment. First CZ-3B was a disaster. First and second DFH-4 bus were failures. They just fixed the bug and carried on.

Additional test flights could delay CZ-5B debut, Mars 2020 mission, Space Station modules, etc down the road.

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OK, that's good for the schedule then!  I hope it all works out well.  I'm more cautious than that, but I am not running a lunar exploration program.

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(unofficial news) According to the weibo of ChinaSpaceflight, Chang'e 5 might be delayed to 2019.
« Last Edit: 07/05/2017 01:40 AM by frensel »

Offline Lars-J

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Based on reports from a chinese forum, the next CZ-5 launch has been delayed into 2018 sometime. And given the rumors of a Chang'e-5 to 2019, the 2018 mission (or more than one) will have other payload(s).

Offline luhai167

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If CE5 is delayed to 2019 due to CZ5 problems, we'll have CE4 to launch before CE5,. I wonder if this will change the landing location for CE5, the relay sat should be in place and tested by CE4.

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I don't think this is likely.  The young basalts near Mons Rumker are a very important goal for CE5.  The second sample return mission, CE6, is much more likely, in my opinion, to go to a farside site using the CE4 infrastructure.  There is now talk of two polar landings after CE6, in addition.

Offline Bob Shaw

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2019
« Reply #120 on: 07/11/2017 09:20 PM »
I don't think this is likely.  The young basalts near Mons Rumker are a very important goal for CE5.  The second sample return mission, CE6, is much more likely, in my opinion, to go to a farside site using the CE4 infrastructure.  There is now talk of two polar landings after CE6, in addition.

Any idea *why* there should be such a 'young' volcanic area there?

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2019
« Reply #121 on: 07/11/2017 10:01 PM »
The youngest lava flows, maybe 1.5 billion years old, tend to have sources in the broad region around Aristarchus crater in eastern Oceanus Procellarum, with patchy distribution and flowing in various directions out from that general region.  One source in the Euler region (NW of Copernicus in southern Mare Imbrium) produced flows which ran all the way to the Chang'E 3 landing site.  Other young flows are found south of Aristarchus itself, and these at Rumker probably have a source north of the Aristrachus Plateau.  The concentration here MIGHT be caused by the elevated amounts of radioactive materials associated with KREEP, an unusual material sampled by Apollo and found around that region.  KREEP was sampled, but not the young lava flows.

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(unofficial news) According to the weibo of ChinaSpaceflight, Chang'e 5 might be delayed to 2019.

Note that this is the only source that gives any info on this till now, based on their own sources. While I think it's certainly a plausible plan on the table, I think it's far too early to declare a 1.5+ years delay, especially since we don't know what failed yet.
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2019
« Reply #123 on: 07/13/2017 02:41 AM »
Ouyang Ziyuan said in his most recent interview where he supposedly said "to the best of my knowledge, there has being no change to CE-5 launch plan (due to the recent CZ-5 failure)." He further said, any test flight will have problems, and our engineers are capable to find and solve these problems.

几天前,长征5号火箭发射失利引发国内外媒体高度关注,因为长征5号年底即将搭载嫦娥5号进行中国无人探月工程的最后一步,一些媒体猜测嫦娥5号发射进程或将受到影响。欧阳自远对此也非常关注,但他说,从他了解的情况看,嫦娥5号发射计划目前没有改变。

“刚刚实验的是长征5号第二次试飞,第二次试飞很遗憾没有进入到预定轨道,我们的工作是难免有这样那样的缺陷,我们一定会从失败当中吸取教训,改进工作,提高质量。”欧阳自远说,任何试飞都会出现一些小问题,但中国航天部门广大的科技人员有实力解决这些问题。

https://kknews.cc/news/pxq439p.html
https://weibo.com/6243310541/Fc4abdBhX?type=comment

The interview is part of a forum-lecture, so hopefully we should see the actual video of exactly what he said once it is scheduled to air.

I wonder if this mean they have root cause the problem and it is not related (or used) in the CE-5 launch.
« Last Edit: 07/13/2017 02:47 AM by luhai167 »

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2019
« Reply #124 on: 07/13/2017 04:22 AM »
Ouyang Ziyuan said in his most recent interview where he supposedly said "to the best of my knowledge, there has being no change to CE-5 launch plan (due to the recent CZ-5 failure)." He further said, any test flight will have problems, and our engineers are capable to find and solve these problems.

几天前,长征5号火箭发射失利引发国内外媒体高度关注,因为长征5号年底即将搭载嫦娥5号进行中国无人探月工程的最后一步,一些媒体猜测嫦娥5号发射进程或将受到影响。欧阳自远对此也非常关注,但他说,从他了解的情况看,嫦娥5号发射计划目前没有改变。

“刚刚实验的是长征5号第二次试飞,第二次试飞很遗憾没有进入到预定轨道,我们的工作是难免有这样那样的缺陷,我们一定会从失败当中吸取教训,改进工作,提高质量。”欧阳自远说,任何试飞都会出现一些小问题,但中国航天部门广大的科技人员有实力解决这些问题。

https://kknews.cc/news/pxq439p.html
https://weibo.com/6243310541/Fc4abdBhX?type=comment

The interview is part of a forum-lecture, so hopefully we should see the actual video of exactly what he said once it is scheduled to air.

I wonder if this mean they have root cause the problem and it is not related (or used) in the CE-5 launch.
Ouyang Ziyuan is not a really reliable source
He is a layman in rocketry
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Offline luhai167

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - NET 2017
« Reply #125 on: 07/13/2017 08:43 AM »
Ouyang Ziyuan said in his most recent interview where he supposedly said "to the best of my knowledge, there has being no change to CE-5 launch plan (due to the recent CZ-5 failure)." He further said, any test flight will have problems, and our engineers are capable to find and solve these problems.

几天前,长征5号火箭发射失利引发国内外媒体高度关注,因为长征5号年底即将搭载嫦娥5号进行中国无人探月工程的最后一步,一些媒体猜测嫦娥5号发射进程或将受到影响。欧阳自远对此也非常关注,但他说,从他了解的情况看,嫦娥5号发射计划目前没有改变。

“刚刚实验的是长征5号第二次试飞,第二次试飞很遗憾没有进入到预定轨道,我们的工作是难免有这样那样的缺陷,我们一定会从失败当中吸取教训,改进工作,提高质量。”欧阳自远说,任何试飞都会出现一些小问题,但中国航天部门广大的科技人员有实力解决这些问题。

https://kknews.cc/news/pxq439p.html
https://weibo.com/6243310541/Fc4abdBhX?type=comment

The interview is part of a forum-lecture, so hopefully we should see the actual video of exactly what he said once it is scheduled to air.

I wonder if this mean they have root cause the problem and it is not related (or used) in the CE-5 launch.
Ouyang Ziyuan is not a really reliable source
He is a layman in rocketry

True, but at least he is a reliable insider in the program management end. What this means is there is at least no immediate decision to delay the CE5 launch. It does not mean they won't delay it later, but at least for now the schedule is end of this year.

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - NET 2017
« Reply #126 on: 07/28/2017 11:04 AM »
delay to 2019
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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2019
« Reply #127 on: 08/11/2017 07:06 PM »
To follow the Chinese space programme in France since the nineties - and particular lunar exploration - Ouyang Ziyuan is far the best person to obtain serious informations of Lunar exploration in China. Its claims are always very acurate since 1999 !... Please, it's a very reliable source. For me it's the more important man in the Moon programme from China Academy of Science in China and when the Party authorize him to speak, you have to analyse each word of the message...

Ouyang Ziyuan said in his most recent interview where he supposedly said "to the best of my knowledge, there has being no change to CE-5 launch plan (due to the recent CZ-5 failure)." He further said, any test flight will have problems, and our engineers are capable to find and solve these problems.

几天前,长征5号火箭发射失利引发国内外媒体高度关注,因为长征5号年底即将搭载嫦娥5号进行中国无人探月工程的最后一步,一些媒体猜测嫦娥5号发射进程或将受到影响。欧阳自远对此也非常关注,但他说,从他了解的情况看,嫦娥5号发射计划目前没有改变。

“刚刚实验的是长征5号第二次试飞,第二次试飞很遗憾没有进入到预定轨道,我们的工作是难免有这样那样的缺陷,我们一定会从失败当中吸取教训,改进工作,提高质量。”欧阳自远说,任何试飞都会出现一些小问题,但中国航天部门广大的科技人员有实力解决这些问题。

https://kknews.cc/news/pxq439p.html
https://weibo.com/6243310541/Fc4abdBhX?type=comment

The interview is part of a forum-lecture, so hopefully we should see the actual video of exactly what he said once it is scheduled to air.

I wonder if this mean they have root cause the problem and it is not related (or used) in the CE-5 launch.
Ouyang Ziyuan is not a really reliable source
He is a layman in rocketry

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Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2019
« Reply #128 on: 10/10/2017 07:27 PM »
Quote
Jeff Foust @jeff_foust
Xiao: no official launch date for Chang’e-5 (delayed by Long March 5 failure); guess need 1-2 successful launches before it. #leag2017

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/917784304163409920

Quote
Jeff Foust @jeff_foust
Xiao: next phase of lunar exploration program will be series of polar missions, including sample return, in early 2020s. #leag2017

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/917783956115873792
« Last Edit: 10/10/2017 07:32 PM by Star One »

Offline Moon Rabbit

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - NET 2017
« Reply #129 on: 10/14/2017 09:19 AM »
delay to 2019

was the photo taken in July 2017? Looks like a projector screening during a meeting/briefing.
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Online SmallKing

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - NET 2017
« Reply #130 on: 10/14/2017 01:50 PM »
delay to 2019

was the photo taken in July 2017? Looks like a projector screening during a meeting/briefing.
I think so. And we know the delay was confirmed by later information
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Offline Moon Rabbit

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - NET 2017
« Reply #131 on: 10/14/2017 03:29 PM »
delay to 2019

was the photo taken in July 2017? Looks like a projector screening during a meeting/briefing.
I think so. And we know the delay was confirmed by later information

Most people agree the launch date for Chang'e 5 will be in 2019. i have been searching for official  confirmation of this date but cannot really find many:-

The best i found was the announcement by Tian Yulong (Sec Gen of CNSA) during a press conference in Adelaide on 25 September 2017.
http://spacenews.com/long-march-5-failure-to-postpone-chinas-lunar-exploration-program/

“The Long March 5 is a bigger challenge for China’s space agency,” he said. “In the future, maybe the end of the year, we will have a clear understanding of the problem.” (paragraph 3)

The next Long March 5 mission was scheduled for this November, carrying Chang’e-5, China’s first lunar sample return mission. That spacecraft will land on the moon, gather samples and return them to Earth in the first such mission to the moon in more than four decades. With the Long March rocket grounded while the investigation continues, Tian confirmed that mission would be delayed. (paragraph 6)

“We plan to adjust the schedule” for that mission, he said, along with Chang’e-4, a lunar lander that will be the first spacecraft to land on the far side of the moon. That mission was scheduled to launch in late 2018, about a year after Chang’e-5. (paragraph 7)

“By the end of the year we will have some detailed information” about the revised schedule for those missions, Tian said. (paragraph 8 )

Long March 5 delays are also expected to push back the launch of Tianhe, the core module of China’s first space station. That launch was expected some time in 2018 but will likely be delayed to 2019. (paragrapgh 9)


Mr Tian confirm the delay of Chang'e 5 and plan to adjust the schedule but actually did not mention new launch date of 2019. Actually there was just mentioned of new launch date for Tianhe in 2019 and not Chang'e 5.

So i was just thinking there could have been more information between July 2017 and September 2017 about the failure of CZ-5 (Y2) and CNSA may be more confident of an earlier date for Chang'e 5 launch. i am hoping we do not have to wait till 2019 for the Moon samples...
The Mercury Seven - Carpenter, Cooper, Glenn, Grissom, Schirra, Shepard, Slayton. “Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known.” - Carl Sagan

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Chang'e-5 lunar sample return, CZ-5 - Wenchang - 2019
« Reply #132 on: 10/14/2017 03:38 PM »
This launch schedule was showing that Tianhe 1 would be launched in 2019 from around May this year: https://www.chinaspaceflight.com/China-Launch-Schedule.html.   Therefore its delay to 2019 is not connected with the CZ-5 failure: of course its actual launch date will depend on the CZ-5 operations in 2018.

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