Author Topic: "Colony module" for ISS?  (Read 16578 times)

Offline Bubbinski

"Colony module" for ISS?
« on: 06/03/2012 05:57 pm »
The chatter about the "urgency" of space colonies got me thinking. 

Right now only 13 people have lived in space at any one time, and a space colony would involve hundreds, thousands, maybe tens of thousands, up to a million people.  That's a pretty big gap between humanity's experience so far and what would be required to make a space colony work.

So are there any plans or studies for a prototype/testbed "colony module" to be berthed on ISS?  A module with living quarters for volunteer couples and individuals who could spend a few years on board (up to a decade?) and try to live and work there with as little input from earth as possible.  Design the module with a self contained life support system, water recycling, greenhouses and animal pens, and study things like human reproduction, radiation exposure, telemedicine, and so on.  Gradually expand the size of the "prototype colony" and see how it develops.  And since ISS is orbiting earth there's always the possibility of an evacuation if needed, once commercial crew gets going.
I'll even excitedly look forward to "flags and footprints" and suborbital missions. Just fly...somewhere.

Offline Nomadd

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Re: "Colony module" for ISS?
« Reply #1 on: 06/03/2012 06:13 pm »
 The Iss wouldn't really have much to offer. Power , cooling and life support don't have enough excess capacity for anything like that. It would be better just to build the thing self sufficient in the first place.
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Offline rklaehn

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Re: "Colony module" for ISS?
« Reply #2 on: 06/03/2012 06:17 pm »
The chatter about the "urgency" of space colonies got me thinking. 

Right now only 13 people have lived in space at any one time, and a space colony would involve hundreds, thousands, maybe tens of thousands, up to a million people.  That's a pretty big gap between humanity's experience so far and what would be required to make a space colony work.

So are there any plans or studies for a prototype/testbed "colony module" to be berthed on ISS?  A module with living quarters for volunteer couples and individuals who could spend a few years on board (up to a decade?) and try to live and work there with as little input from earth as possible.  Design the module with a self contained life support system, water recycling, greenhouses and animal pens, and study things like human reproduction, radiation exposure, telemedicine, and so on.  Gradually expand the size of the "prototype colony" and see how it develops.  And since ISS is orbiting earth there's always the possibility of an evacuation if needed, once commercial crew gets going.

This is not exactly what you propose, but very close: the G-Lab project by Gary Hudson: http://ssi.org/2012/04/ssi-update-april-2012-introduction-to-g-lab/

Offline ChileVerde

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Re: "Colony module" for ISS?
« Reply #3 on: 06/03/2012 07:15 pm »
Design the module with a self contained life support system, water recycling, greenhouses and animal pens...

It would take a fair number of years of R&D to learn how to build those things, first individually and then working together in an integrated system. Assuming the module is going to be microgee, just designing a monkey cage for long-duration use might be -- challenging. And icky.

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Offline Danderman

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Re: "Colony module" for ISS?
« Reply #4 on: 06/03/2012 07:19 pm »
ISS is a colony module.

If you want a larger crew size, you need to specify why and what they will do.

Offline Jorge

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Re: "Colony module" for ISS?
« Reply #5 on: 06/03/2012 07:32 pm »
ISS is a colony module.

Probably not by Bubbinski's definition - ISS's life support system is not closed-loop and required frequent resupply from the ground.

Quote
If you want a larger crew size, you need to specify why and what they will do.

Since the required life support systems don't exist in anything but experimental form, I propose what's really needed are in-orbit testbeds. These could be packaged in racks and brought up by HTV. Could be tested without expanding ISS crew size, and the current ISS systems would of course still be available when (not if) the testbeds malfunction.

I believe there is already a project to do this but at its current level of funding, it will take some years to develop a testbed.
JRF

Offline Bubbinski

Re: "Colony module" for ISS?
« Reply #6 on: 06/03/2012 08:55 pm »
Jorge's right - I was thinking about a module to test a closed-loop life support system and other ways to make the module as self-sustaining as possible, have a group of people try to live there just in that module for years on end, see if it can sustain itself or what would be needed to make it a self sustaining colony.  As far as "animal pens" I was thinking about small pigs and chickens raised for food (incl. eggs)  to supplement the greenhouses.

Anyway if it's not possible for a colony module to fly I would hope the testbeds Jorge mentions would at least get to be tried out at some point.
I'll even excitedly look forward to "flags and footprints" and suborbital missions. Just fly...somewhere.

Offline ChileVerde

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Re: "Colony module" for ISS?
« Reply #7 on: 06/03/2012 09:55 pm »
As far as "animal pens" I was thinking about small pigs and chickens raised for food (incl. eggs)  to supplement the greenhouses.

Anyway if it's not possible for a colony module to fly I would hope the testbeds Jorge mentions would at least get to be tried out at some point.

I agree that for anything like this to work will need a lot of preliminary development of the bits and pieces.  However, the presence or absence of significant gravity (implying centrifugal habitats) is, I think, going to be a big factor. The thought of keeping pigs and chickens in zero gravity is daunting. Maybe even g/10 would be enough, that would have to be seen, but floating excrement is a really daunting prospect.

For which reason I wish more attention were being paid to centrifugal habitats: wheels, tethers, or whatever. And, poop aside, the physiological effects of prolonged weightlessness would be circumvented.

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Offline Bubbinski

Re: "Colony module" for ISS?
« Reply #8 on: 06/03/2012 10:26 pm »
Good point about the floating "waste", that had not fully entered my mind.  I wonder how past animal experiments in space (aboard the shuttle for example) dealt with that.

I'll even excitedly look forward to "flags and footprints" and suborbital missions. Just fly...somewhere.

Offline oscar71

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Re: "Colony module" for ISS?
« Reply #9 on: 06/04/2012 12:55 am »
Would someone born in space be able to live comfortably on earth if they had to evacuate?

Offline Danderman

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Re: "Colony module" for ISS?
« Reply #10 on: 06/04/2012 12:58 am »
Good point about the floating "waste", that had not fully entered my mind.  I wonder how past animal experiments in space (aboard the shuttle for example) dealt with that.



You really don't want to know.   :P

Offline JimOman

Re: "Colony module" for ISS?
« Reply #11 on: 06/04/2012 01:29 am »
...and animal pens...

That won't happen until pigs fly!  :P 

In all seriousness, what we need is a orbital test bed before we go large scale. A place that can test new water cycles, power generation and long-term air filtration, etc. We need a place to work out infant technology to get it to the point that could support a colony of any size.

That place is called the Space Station.

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Offline JimOman

Re: "Colony module" for ISS?
« Reply #12 on: 06/04/2012 01:45 am »

So are there any plans or studies for a prototype/testbed "colony module" to be berthed on ISS? 

That IS the ISS, we've just got a ways to go, more experiments, etc.


A module with living quarters for volunteer couples and individuals who could spend a few years on board (up to a decade?)

We're up to six months max duration, waiting on more medical and physiological/psychological data.

  Design the module with a self contained life support system, water recycling, greenhouses and animal pens, and study things like human reproduction, radiation exposure, telemedicine, and so on.

That is all in being developed in some form on the ISS, except human reproduction.
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Offline Lars_J

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Re: "Colony module" for ISS?
« Reply #13 on: 06/04/2012 04:38 am »
...and animal pens...

That won't happen until pigs fly!  :P 

In all seriousness, what we need is a orbital test bed before we go large scale. A place that can test new water cycles, power generation and long-term air filtration, etc. We need a place to work out infant technology to get it to the point that could support a colony of any size.

That place is called the Space Station.



No, what we need first is to prove these technologies on earth. There is no reason why it has to be proven in space first. Create a truly closed loop system in a lab or test site, and let volunteers live in it. Once that is complete, launch a space version to verify that the technology works in micro-gravity.

While there have been some closed loop tests, most have either been to large scale (grow your own food), or have concentrated on psychology issues.

Offline tlesinsk

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Re: "Colony module" for ISS?
« Reply #14 on: 06/04/2012 06:26 am »
About animal pens, flying feces aside: we get so accustomed to eating meat (or eggs, for that matter) that we don't fully realise what it costs to obtain it. In a closed-loop environment, to breed animals, you first have to grow plants to feed them. The amount of resources necessary to obtain animal protein is much, much larger than for an equivalent amount of plant protein (of which pulses, i.e. beans and especially soy beans, are an excellent source).

The first space colonists, at least, will be vegan. Then, when they really get tired of eating tofu, they will go for animals that are used to living in a three-dimensional, bare-bones, contained environment for which automated life support, including waste treatment, is well understood: fish.
« Last Edit: 06/04/2012 06:43 am by tlesinsk »

Offline JimOman

Re: "Colony module" for ISS?
« Reply #15 on: 06/04/2012 06:36 am »
Just think about all the upmass required to grow plant-based food. You would need soil (or synthetic substitute), water, seed and fertilizer, etc.

It would be better to continue to develop new ways of doing these things on the ground and testing them on ISS. I'm all for advancement, but we're just to far from mature technology systems to allow for all-up tests in the near future.

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Offline cro-magnon gramps

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Re: "Colony module" for ISS?
« Reply #16 on: 06/04/2012 06:55 am »
Most people who have commented on this, are trying to be positive. I agree that this is now time to discuss such a project. The time for a full implementation of a closed loop environmental system, in space is fast coming, as the technology is maturing to a level that is compatible with it. But I don't believe we need a long term Earth bound test as there are at present throughout the world, homes that are being used in this way, only without the oxygen creation, and air purifying system. There are sufficient tests of the water, food cycle, and energy cycle to have data that will inform a space module test. While on the Space Station, cleaning of air is being done, if not the replenishing, though we know that cycle, and a test to recreate that can be performed with or without human involvement.
    I would propose a maximum 2 year test of a closed system, with airlock, for fine tuning, with additional apparatus and plants if necessary, on Earth. What I would want is a field test in Space of a system for generating 1g or a partial g. gravity field, on the scale that would be necessary for 10+ people to live and do productive work, like on the ISS. In other words, put our money where our mouths are, and do the deed, build a Space Station for the purpose of ultimately testing long term closed loop survivable system, in a place which has sufficient safeguards against endangering the lives of the participants: LEO.
    Start with the ecological system test on the planet, begin building the Space Station for testing of the gravity, and fine tune the two tests through the time period of the ground test and beyond if necessary. Then move the ground test incrementally to the Space Station, as it is proven that gravity creation works, until the full system is up and running, and is fine tuned there. THEN the long term testing and functioning of the Space Station can be taken up in a safe environment.
     This is the only way that I can see that we will have a usable product at the end.

edit, if I seem redundant in my emphasis, it is because I am tired of the wishy washy attitude; certainly it will take a decade at least to build and implement this, but we have the technology and hopefully the launchers to build this in the near future. Let's get the investment side working on it, to get implementation. I believe it is a long over due project. Post Apollo era scientists wanted to do this, why can't we do it now 40 years later with our greater technological abilities? 
   
« Last Edit: 06/04/2012 07:02 am by cro-magnon gramps »
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Offline QuantumG

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Re: "Colony module" for ISS?
« Reply #17 on: 06/04/2012 07:22 am »
I don't believe we need a long term Earth bound test as there are at present throughout the world, homes that are being used in this way, only without the oxygen creation, and air purifying system.

See also "This Other Eden" by Ben Elton.
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Offline Lampyridae

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Re: "Colony module" for ISS?
« Reply #18 on: 06/04/2012 09:39 am »
About animal pens, flying feces aside: we get so accustomed to eating meat (or eggs, for that matter) that we don't fully realise what it costs to obtain it. In a closed-loop environment, to breed animals, you first have to grow plants to feed them. The amount of resources necessary to obtain animal protein is much, much larger than for an equivalent amount of plant protein (of which pulses, i.e. beans and especially soy beans, are an excellent source).

The first space colonists, at least, will be vegan. Then, when they really get tired of eating tofu, they will go for animals that are used to living in a three-dimensional, bare-bones, contained environment for which automated life support, including waste treatment, is well understood: fish.

By this stage, we will probably be able to grow animal muscle tissue in vitro, or create animal protein substitutes with genetically engineered plants or algae. Animals have entrails (that must be eaten - ugh) and hides, teeth bones and so on that must also be processed. Plus they stink. With fish, there's less of this, plus they can live in the water you use for radiation shielding. And you get a nice aquarium as a bonus.

Offline Robert Thompson

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Re: "Colony module" for ISS?
« Reply #19 on: 06/04/2012 10:14 am »
Humans require large diameter tori for to not experience differential g. Small mammals with head at same elevation as torso / ~feet can be free of differential g at much smaller diameter tori.

I am casually interested in crowd funding models where the barrier of entry is at the granularity of one dollar, enabling symbolic participation by many (voting with 'a' dollar), while retaining public historical tracking data for all inputs of each participant. For instance, on a first Friday, all members of a tribe have electronic 1 dollar inputs to the project, and a report is automatically generated indicating which members of the tribe did not send the dollar. So the risk as a function of time, per person, is something like one dollar per month or 12 per year. The report lets you differentiate allies and evaluate if the promise of the project is worth the risk spread across fewer individuals. I'm just thinking out loud; someone run with this. Main idea here is that since we're heading into a regime where NSF DHS surveillance capabilities are going to watch every step you take, someone should be able to leverage a tiny bit of it to let the private citizen reap data and evaluate risk investments for fairly long term (multi-generational?) projects.

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