Author Topic: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?  (Read 112049 times)

Offline Lobo

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This is just an intellectual exercise at this point, but I'm curious. 

If Ares V had turned out to be something like Direct's Jupiter back in 2005 or whenever CxP was minted (two Shuttle 4-seg SRB's, modified ET with 3 or 4 SSME aft thrust structure, development of new 8.4m upper stage).

As I understand, Ares 1 originally was going to be a standard 4-seg Shuttle SRB, same as Ares V would have used, with an upper stage that would have used an air-lit SSME, which would have had commonality with the SSME's used on the Ares V.  But then they figured it would be too hard to develop an air-lit SSME, so that was scrapped in favor of a new J2X.  Then they got rid of the SSME's on Ares V and replacement them with RS-68's. (which later developed a base-heating problem).
And thus the program's expenses spiraled out of control.

But what if they had been able to develop an air-lit SSME for Ares 1 cost effectively, and thus stayed with the same 4-seg Shuttle booster?
And what if Ares V had been a Jupiter-246.  And perhaps if the JUS had used the same air-lit SSME the ARes 1 used?
Or, if they'd shrunk the Orion CSM down enough so that an EELV upper stage could have been used to get it to LEO.  A DCSS or maybe even ACES with 4X RL10 (then ULA woudl have gotten ACES, which they want anyway).  And then the JUS woudl have used the 6XRL10 for commonality.
Again, Ares 1 would have stuck with the stock 4-seg booster.

So, if they'd stuck with the LV components they had available, and then designed the ORion CSM and Altair to fit within those limits, could Ares 1 and thus CxP have worked cost effectively.  Could we be flying them today if that had been the PoR.?

Two new LV's, but both sharing the exact same Shuttle SRB's we've been using for 30 years.  Both sharing RS25's, or RL10's (depending on Ares 1 upper stage).  Ares 1 using ULA's ACES upper stage for commonality with the EELV program. 

4-seg Ares 1 plus J246 Ares V?

Could that have worked, and worked well?  Or would that have still been too expensive and unfeasible?
 

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?
« Reply #1 on: 08/12/2011 08:04 PM »
You still have the problem of the 1.5 launch architecture - and two different launch vehicles.

Offline Tony Ostinato

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Re: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?
« Reply #2 on: 08/12/2011 08:06 PM »
there was an issue flying a single solid engine, where as it burned it could create a resonating "organ pipe" low frequency vibration that could become so intense it could shake the astronauts to death. i remember even reading that it could liquify them.

it said that when you use 2, like shuttle, that they never are at exactly the same frequency so its not a problem.

ares designers were talking about building a weighted dampener section and other such kludges.

now all that could be misread by me or just completely out of date. it seemed like at that time is when nasa people started pushing direct and other alternatives.

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?
« Reply #3 on: 08/12/2011 08:21 PM »
I don't think the oscillation problem was a deal breaker. It could have worked, and seemed to be under control at the end of Ares I development. But with enough money and effort, you can make a brick fly. (At least that's what was said about the F-4 Phantom)

The question is if it is worth the effort, compared to other approaches.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?
« Reply #4 on: 08/12/2011 08:28 PM »
Money pit....
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob, Physics instructor, aviator, vintage auto racer

Offline Downix

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Re: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?
« Reply #5 on: 08/12/2011 09:12 PM »
*could* it have worked, absolutely.  The cost would have been incredibly high, the time to develop long, but it would have worked, not well.  And then, once finished, shelved to never be launched due to the laws governing NASA requiring them to launch on commercial vehicles when one is available which can fulfill the need, and the Ares I was only viable because it could lift 4 metric tons more than the EELV's, but with the upgrades the EELV's could lift the same *if not more* than Ares I, eliminating that argument.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline beb

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Re: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?
« Reply #6 on: 08/12/2011 09:29 PM »
I think in the end it would have been cheaper and quicker to develop "Stumpy" than Ares I. The two side-by-side SRB would have evened out the thrust oscillation problem, and the upper stage could have been lit on the ground, thus allowing use of SSME.

Offline Prober

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Re: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?
« Reply #7 on: 08/12/2011 10:06 PM »
*could* it have worked, absolutely.  The cost would have been incredibly high, the time to develop long, but it would have worked, not well.  And then, once finished, shelved to never be launched due to the laws governing NASA requiring them to launch on commercial vehicles when one is available which can fulfill the need, and the Ares I was only viable because it could lift 4 metric tons more than the EELV's, but with the upgrades the EELV's could lift the same *if not more* than Ares I, eliminating that argument.

What was that NASA project called that cut the solids into two 3-4 sections ? 
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I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. ~ by Thomas Alva Edison

Offline Lobo

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Re: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?
« Reply #8 on: 08/12/2011 10:34 PM »
Assuming that the TO wouldn't be a problem, for the sake of argument.

1)  Why would this be so expensive?  I know why the PoR Ares 1 became so expensive.  It required a brands new SRB, brand new upper stage engine, and a brand new upper stage.  None of which shared commonality with anything else (unless Ares V were to use J2X on it's upper stage, which it probably would have).
If Ares 1 had a standard Shuttle 4-seg SRB, RL-10 (or affordable air-lit SSME if such a thing would have been practical) upper stage engine, and EELV upper stage (ACES for example), and Orion CSM had been designed to not exceed what that can put into LEO, that doesn't seem like it would have been all that expensive.

Again, I'm not advocating Ares 1 by any means.  I think EELV's should have been the crew LV for a 1.5 architechure.  But again, just curious if had NASA "lived within it's means" and limits of what it's exisitng hardware could lift, would Ares 1 have been practical and affordable?  Or still too expensive?

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?
« Reply #9 on: 08/12/2011 10:53 PM »
Lobo,
The reason why it is so expensive is because it is made so…
Launch Provider: “How much will it cost”?
ATK: “Well, how much do you have”?

Robert  ::)

P.S. Better ask Ed Kyle, I believe he was a fan and perhaps can make an informed case…

I still say you can use them to launch Prop Depots...
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob, Physics instructor, aviator, vintage auto racer

Offline Lobo

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Re: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?
« Reply #10 on: 08/12/2011 11:10 PM »
Lobo,
The reason why it is so expensive is because it is made so…
Launch Provider: “How much will it cost”?
ATK: “Well, how much do you have”?

Robert  ::)

P.S. Better ask Ed Kyle, I believe he was a fan and perhaps can make an informed case…

I still say you can use them to launch Prop Depots...

If that's the case, then would an EELV as the crew lifter been any different?

Launch Provider:  "How much will it cost?
ULA:  "How much do you have?"

Back in 2005 or whenever the PoR took shape, ULA was the only game in town for American LV providers.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?
« Reply #11 on: 08/12/2011 11:19 PM »
Lobo,
The reason why it is so expensive is because it is made so…
Launch Provider: “How much will it cost”?
ATK: “Well, how much do you have”?

Robert  ::)

P.S. Better ask Ed Kyle, I believe he was a fan and perhaps can make an informed case…

I still say you can use them to launch Prop Depots...

If that's the case, then would an EELV as the crew lifter been any different?

Launch Provider:  "How much will it cost?
ULA:  "How much do you have?"

Back in 2005 or whenever the PoR took shape, ULA was the only game in town for American LV providers.
Lobo,
That’s why someone like SpaceX, with their “disruptive technology model” is good for the industry.  Did you notice how all of a sudden… mysteriously the “old space” firms were offering reduced prices…
Robert
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob, Physics instructor, aviator, vintage auto racer

Offline Jim

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Re: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?
« Reply #12 on: 08/12/2011 11:37 PM »
I think in the end it would have been cheaper and quicker to develop "Stumpy" than Ares I. The two side-by-side SRB would have evened out the thrust oscillation problem, and the upper stage could have been lit on the ground, thus allowing use of SSME.

Stumpy was not "real" design.  It was "developed" by ground ops people.

It has no redeeming value.  EELVs could do the job, since there is no re.ation to Ares V
« Last Edit: 08/12/2011 11:39 PM by Jim »

Offline Jim

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Re: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?
« Reply #13 on: 08/12/2011 11:41 PM »

That’s why someone like SpaceX, with their “disruptive technology model” is good for the industry.  Did you notice how all of a sudden… mysteriously the “old space” firms were offering reduced prices…
Robert


Who is reducing prices?

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?
« Reply #14 on: 08/12/2011 11:56 PM »

That’s why someone like SpaceX, with their “disruptive technology model” is good for the industry.  Did you notice how all of a sudden… mysteriously the “old space” firms were offering reduced prices…
Robert


Who is reducing prices?
Hey Jim!
You looking for a deal…? LOL Seriously, when I wrote that what came to mind was USA alleged offer to operate the Shuttle for 1.5B. You would know better that me if any other firms were offering any deals. ATK/ Liberty?
Regards
Robert
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Offline Jim

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Re: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?
« Reply #15 on: 08/13/2011 12:06 AM »
The USA proposal had nothing to do with Spacex and it wasn't "reducing" prices, it was eliminating NASA oversight.

ATK/Liberty is not a case of reducing prices

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?
« Reply #16 on: 08/13/2011 12:25 AM »
The USA proposal had nothing to do with Spacex and it wasn't "reducing" prices, it was eliminating NASA oversight.

ATK/Liberty is not a case of reducing prices
Fair enough Jim makes sense, without getting too OT. That ATK/liberty proposal might relate better to this thread as it relates closer to Ares 1, if you have any thoughts on it.

Regards
Robert
« Last Edit: 08/13/2011 12:25 AM by Rocket Science »
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
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Offline Downix

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Re: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?
« Reply #17 on: 08/13/2011 12:31 AM »
I think in the end it would have been cheaper and quicker to develop "Stumpy" than Ares I. The two side-by-side SRB would have evened out the thrust oscillation problem, and the upper stage could have been lit on the ground, thus allowing use of SSME.

Stumpy was not "real" design.  It was "developed" by ground ops people.

It has no redeeming value.  EELVs could do the job, since there is no re.ation to Ares V
That depended on the particulars of the Ares V.  The stumpy design, upon studying it, would have mirrored one of the EDS configurations which were developed for Ares V.  Switch out the EDS interstage with the original shuttle interstage, and you now have relation, in fact you'd have a lot more relation than you did with Ares I and Ares V.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?
« Reply #18 on: 08/13/2011 04:14 PM »
Ed.... Say something....
Robert :)
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Offline Prober

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Re: Could Ares 1 have Worked if things had been different?
« Reply #19 on: 08/13/2011 07:22 PM »
I think in the end it would have been cheaper and quicker to develop "Stumpy" than Ares I. The two side-by-side SRB would have evened out the thrust oscillation problem, and the upper stage could have been lit on the ground, thus allowing use of SSME.

Stumpy was not "real" design.  It was "developed" by ground ops people.

It has no redeeming value.  EELVs could do the job, since there is no re.ation to Ares V
That depended on the particulars of the Ares V.  The stumpy design, upon studying it, would have mirrored one of the EDS configurations which were developed for Ares V.  Switch out the EDS interstage with the original shuttle interstage, and you now have relation, in fact you'd have a lot more relation than you did with Ares I and Ares V.

Still think this is the short term answer.

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2006/07/nasa-has-5-seg-clv-alternatives/

The J2-X engine would have to go however.
2017 - Everything Old is New Again.
I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. ~ by Thomas Alva Edison

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