Author Topic: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011  (Read 341480 times)

Online Jorge

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Re: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011
« Reply #40 on: 02/28/2009 01:59 PM »
Cool!  The Chinese are using APAS!  I was expecting something more like the Russian Probe/Drogue system.

After Orion 3 (the second ATLAS delivery) there won't be an APAS on ISS for them to dock to, so I suspect they'll be rethinking their plans if they want to visit ISS.
JRF

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011
« Reply #41 on: 02/28/2009 02:21 PM »
@ wbhh

I note that the last two images you posted look like two different vehicles.  The top one is definately the same vehicle that was also in the illustration posted by henrypan123.  The bottom one is a standard Salut 7/Mir-class lab module.  Which one is Shenzhou-8?

[EDIT - Read Launch Schedule Thread]

Okay, now I know.  It looks like the top vehicle is Tiangong-1, which will rendezvous with Shenzhou-8 (the bottom vehicle) before any manned spacecraft. 

Does anyone know what the purpose of this mission will be? Will it be a lab, a cargo/reboost module for SZ-8 or is it just going to be docking technology test flight?
« Last Edit: 02/28/2009 02:26 PM by Ben the Space Brit »
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Offline Danderman

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Re: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011
« Reply #42 on: 02/28/2009 02:27 PM »
Thanks everybody!

The see that the service module of the mini-space lab hasn't yet been attached to the crew module. We could expect a mid-2010 launch with the most of the crew module completed.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-02/28/content_10917086.htm

"China plans to launch an unmanned space module into orbit as early as the end of 2010.  It is expected to meet with another unmanned spacecraft, Shenzhou-8, which is scheduled to be launched in early 2011. It would be the country's first space docking. "

Offline hesidu

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Re: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011
« Reply #43 on: 02/28/2009 02:31 PM »
Tiangong spaceship has two modules as show in the illustration. I guess one is the service module, and the other is the orbit module.

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011
« Reply #44 on: 02/28/2009 02:45 PM »
Hmm... If hesidu's assessment of TG-1 is right, then I wonder if the service module will be expended after docking.  If so, the TG-1 might be a specialised lab and sensor module for Shenzhou-8.  In which case, it will be a bit like Kvant I for Mir, a little extra space and more solar array power generation area.

If this is the case, then the Chinese are pretty serious about Shenzhou-8.  It isn't going to be a few short-stay missions but the base block of their Mir equivalent (seen in the Launch Schedule thread).  Considering that this would catapult them all the way up to parity with Russia in terms of capability in one move, that is a pretty big achievement for their manned program.

I am honestly impressed.

[EDIT - Hmmm]

Alternately... does anyone remember Arthur C. Clarke's '2010 - Odyssey Two'? In that, the Chinese manned Jovian explorer Tsein was built ostensiably as a space station before suddenly sprouting a drive section in the last assembly launch.  What if TG-1's service module isn't expended? What if its job is to take SZ-8... elsewhere? Maybe to the Moon?

2011, with four or five years to go before the end of the Shuttle Gap and the Chinese send SZ-8/10 around the Moon, Zond-style.  Ridiculous? Maybe.  We'll have to wait and see.
« Last Edit: 02/28/2009 02:49 PM by Ben the Space Brit »
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Offline johnxx9

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Re: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011
« Reply #45 on: 02/28/2009 02:46 PM »
The picture of Shezhou docking Tiangong shows Taingong having 5 docking adaptors but the actual Taingong has just one. But, are they docking adaptors ??

The actual photos doesn't show anything like that! I was hoping for atleast 2 docking adaptors on Tiangong. Anyway a very good job.

 I think the Chinese are modifying the Long March-2F to carry Tiangong as it weighs around 12 tons. The present capability is around 8.5 tons.

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011
« Reply #46 on: 02/28/2009 02:53 PM »
The picture of Shezhou docking Tiangong shows Taingong having 5 docking adaptors but the actual Taingong has just one. But, are they docking adaptors ??

I'm pretty sure we're looking at two distinct vehicles here, John.  Shenzhou-8 is the Mir-style space station in the bottom picture.  The vehicle you can see docking with it is Shenzhou-10, the Chinese's evolved-Soyuz clone. 

The picture above the rendezvous image is Tiangong-1  I'm guessing that it is going to be a lab and also reboost module to keep SZ-8 in orbit for as long as possible.  SZ-9 will probably be an unmanned cargo Shenzhou that will dock at one of the flank ports to carry up lab equipment that launch weight limits won't allow for launch along with SZ-8.
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Offline hesidu

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Re: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011
« Reply #47 on: 02/28/2009 03:09 PM »
Tiangong 1(another name: object spacecraft) will be used to test docking technology. According to early reports, Tiangong 1 will stay in orbit and docking with several Shenzhou spaceships.

Offline Danderman

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Re: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011
« Reply #48 on: 02/28/2009 04:22 PM »
Cool!  The Chinese are using APAS!  I was expecting something more like the Russian Probe/Drogue system.

After Orion 3 (the second ATLAS delivery) there won't be an APAS on ISS for them to dock to, so I suspect they'll be rethinking their plans if they want to visit ISS.

In that world where the two US segment APAS have been replaced by LIDS, the Chinese could either adopt LIDS or install a passive APAS-89 on some future available Russian hybrid adapter (assuming the Chinese are ever involved with ISS).

Offline Danderman

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Re: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011
« Reply #49 on: 02/28/2009 04:29 PM »
OK, I think we are generating a boatload of hyperbole upon seeing these various images and reading rather vague press releases. What I think is in the cards:

1) This new "station" (Tiangong) has a mass of 8.5 tons, but is somewhat larger than Shenzhou as it is less dense. The rear section seems to be pressurized, and the images show dockings with the rear section, so there must be a port there, too. The rear section shows no sign of being a propulsion module. In any case, the Chinese have alluded to 2 Shenzhous being docked to this Tiangong.

2) One image shows a "Node module" mated to the "front" of Tiangong; this module is virtually identical to a planned Node for the ISS Russian segment. Its pretty obvious that this Node would be brought up by some other vehicle, and then docked with Tiangong. Perhaps the Node would be brought up by some future Shenzhou, in lieu of its Orbital Module.

3) So, the concept of operations would be similar to Salyut, with periodic visits by crews. If the Node is installed, then perhaps other similar modules could be attached to expand the station.


« Last Edit: 02/28/2009 04:30 PM by Danderman »

Offline johnxx9

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Re: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011
« Reply #50 on: 02/28/2009 04:32 PM »
Cool!  The Chinese are using APAS!  I was expecting something more like the Russian Probe/Drogue system.

After Orion 3 (the second ATLAS delivery) there won't be an APAS on ISS for them to dock to, so I suspect they'll be rethinking their plans if they want to visit ISS.

In that world where the two US segment APAS have been replaced by LIDS, the Chinese could either adopt LIDS or install a passive APAS-89 on some future available Russian hybrid adapter (assuming the Chinese are ever involved with ISS).


Both India and China will use Russian technology in docking operations. I think both the Shenzhou and Indian OV will be compatible with Russian docking ports on the ISS.


Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011
« Reply #51 on: 02/28/2009 05:12 PM »
Cool!  The Chinese are using APAS!  I was expecting something more like the Russian Probe/Drogue system.

After Orion 3 (the second ATLAS delivery) there won't be an APAS on ISS for them to dock to, so I suspect they'll be rethinking their plans if they want to visit ISS.

APAS is used because it is what was exported from Russia, China will not be going to ISS (have been officially denied the right to by Congress)

Offline Danderman

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Re: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011
« Reply #52 on: 02/28/2009 05:15 PM »
Both India and China will use Russian technology in docking operations. I think both the Shenzhou and Indian OV will be compatible with Russian docking ports on the ISS.

The statement above is a little misleading. China is clearing using some sort of APAS variant for its dockings, but although India is using some Russian technology in its capsule, it is not clear if they will use Russian docking technologies, or which variant they might use if they did use Russian hardware.

And, although I stated above that its possible to integrate APAS with the Russian segment:

a) there are no APAS ports on the Russian segment today, nor planned to be installed ever.

b) Although APAS technically is "field replaceable" with hybrid, its a really big job.

Therefore, its very possible that the Indian capsule, if it ever flies, would use probe and cone, and the Chinese vehicle might mate with the US segment.



Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011
« Reply #53 on: 02/28/2009 05:30 PM »

a) there are no APAS ports on the Russian segment today, nor planned to be installed ever.

Technically not true but practically true (Zarya has an APAS port, however PMA-1 is attatched)

Quote
Therefore, its very possible that the Indian capsule, if it ever flies, would use probe and cone, and the Chinese vehicle might mate with the US segment.

Again, China has been "banned" from the station by the US Congress, while possibly technically possible it is politically impossible.
« Last Edit: 02/28/2009 05:32 PM by Ronsmytheiii »

Offline spaceamillion

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Offline johnxx9

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Re: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011
« Reply #55 on: 02/28/2009 05:57 PM »
Both India and China will use Russian technology in docking operations. I think both the Shenzhou and Indian OV will be compatible with Russian docking ports on the ISS.

The statement above is a little misleading. China is clearing using some sort of APAS variant for its dockings, but although India is using some Russian technology in its capsule, it is not clear if they will use Russian docking technologies, or which variant they might use if they did use Russian hardware.

And, although I stated above that its possible to integrate APAS with the Russian segment:

a) there are no APAS ports on the Russian segment today, nor planned to be installed ever.

b) Although APAS technically is "field replaceable" with hybrid, its a really big job.

Therefore, its very possible that the Indian capsule, if it ever flies, would use probe and cone, and the Chinese vehicle might mate with the US segment.

Is the Chinese APAS compatible with the present APAS-95 on the American docking ports in ISS ??
Isn't LIDS same as APAS ?? I thought that it just was a variant with smaller diameter.

And yes India will use a system very similar to the Russian probe and mechanism and they plan to have it from the first flight itself.

Offline Danderman

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Re: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011
« Reply #56 on: 02/28/2009 05:59 PM »
Technically not true but practically true (Zarya has an APAS port, however PMA-1 is attatched)

You are completely correct, I had forgotten about the "buried" port.

Offline Danderman

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Re: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011
« Reply #57 on: 02/28/2009 06:01 PM »
Is the Chinese APAS compatible with the present APAS-95 on the American docking ports in ISS ??
Isn't LIDS same as APAS ?? I thought that it just was a variant with smaller diameter.

We don't know exactly how compatible the Chinese APAS is with any existing form of APAS.  Given that APAS-95 is compatible with APAS-89, common sense would indicate that the Chinese APAS is also compatible with those systems, but there is no certainty in that assumption. I do see that the latches resemble those of Russian built modern APAS.

LIDS <> APAS.



Offline hesidu

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Re: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011
« Reply #58 on: 02/28/2009 06:13 PM »
I think China would eventually enter the ISS project. US accuse China of bad human right record every year. A permit to enter the ISS project somehow links to the human right record of China. They think if allow China to enter the ISS project, it would be a huge reward for China. I don't know whether China's human right would be improved in the coming years. But China would sooner or latter has the ability to build its own spacestation. By then, the permit to enter the ISS project will no long seen as a reward for China.
« Last Edit: 02/28/2009 06:14 PM by hesidu »

Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: LIVE: TianGong-1 JSLC CZ-2F (T1) launch September 29, 2011
« Reply #59 on: 02/28/2009 06:22 PM »
I think China would eventually enter the ISS project. US accuse China of bad human right record every year. A permit to enter the ISS project somehow links to the human right record of China. They think if allow China to enter the ISS project, it would be a huge reward for China. I don't know whether China's human right would be improved in the coming years. But China would sooner or latter has the ability to build its own spacestation. By then, the permit to enter the ISS project will no long seen as a reward for China.

That is not the only condition.  To join ISS China would have to virtually "rip open" all the components of Shenzhou to be allowed to dock to ISS. NASA would have to pour over every detail of the craft which they have done with Russia, JASA, and ESA.  I do not believe China would stand for such an action.

However once again it is the will of the US Congress that China is not allowed, and I do not seem that stance changing anytime soon.

Tags: TianGong-1