Author Topic: Upgrading the SDLV  (Read 19560 times)

Offline JonClarke

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Upgrading the SDLV
« on: 01/03/2006 03:57 am »
To what extent can the performance of the SDLV be upgraded without an extensive redesign?  is it 2%, 5%, 10%

Jon

Offline STS Tony

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #1 on: 01/03/2006 04:24 am »
Unless you mean different, are you talking about the extra options with SSMEs? Maybe with the SRBs?

I know the most powerful one I've seen on various papers was the four x 5seg SRBs plus five x SSMEs. Which is a beast that is unlikely to happen. I think that can carry 200mt.

Offline Martin FL

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #2 on: 01/03/2006 02:08 pm »
Would 4 SRBs work? I know they could place them at 90 degrees around the first stage, but that's a lot 13 million lbs of trust on the SRBs alone!

Offline BogoMIPS

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #3 on: 01/03/2006 06:42 pm »
The ESAS report did mention a 4 booster options on the SDHLV as an operational/facilities problem:

Quote
ESAS Final Report: Chapter 6, Pg 25:
In addition, there would be a large impact to the launch infrastructure
due to the configuration of the four strap-on boosters (i.e., added accommodations
for the two additional boosters in the flame trench and launch pad).

This may have been more in reference to the EELV-derived vehicles, but the same would be true for a SDLV.

Speaking strictly from a geometry point-of-view, It looks like you could get 6 (!) SRB's around the ET's circumference relatively comfortably.  (The SSME nozzles wouldn't fit in the current 5-nozzle pattern, though).

Now wouldn't *that* ride be a kick in the pants. ;)

Offline Super George

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #4 on: 01/03/2006 06:49 pm »
Jeez. They wouldn't have the press area in a three mile exclusion zone for that beast of a launch, unless they happened to be NASA-bashers ;) Broken ear drums would be the order of that day!

Offline JonClarke

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #5 on: 01/04/2006 12:01 pm »
I would assume that 2 additional SRBs and/or an extra SSME would count as a major redesign.

So let me re ask the question.  Home much extra lift could be got out of the four SSME, 2 RB SDLV by tweaking pressures, grains, flow rates, operating temperatures, etc. - 2, 5, 10%?

Jon

Offline Flightstar

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #6 on: 01/04/2006 11:38 pm »
One something that size, I'm guessing you don't want to tweak them, period. You could get anything between 2 and 5 percent as a guess, but you really don't want to, on either the SSMEs or the SRBs.

Offline BogoMIPS

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #7 on: 01/05/2006 01:58 am »
While I have no factual evidence to back this up, I would guess if simple "tweaking" could provide any appreciable improvement in performance, it probably would've been done already.  We've already seen the SSMEs evolve to the point where they can function at 109% or original-rated thrust.  Hopefully, the expendable variant of the SSME maintains this level of performance.

The SRBs are sort of in the same boat.  I'm sure, at this point, after 220-odd launches, and however many test-stand firings, they've probably been tweaked as much as is practical/safe.

Semi-major modifications (such as switching the SRB fuel from PBAN to HTPB) are expected to yield performance gains, at which point, some tuning in the burn pattern in the solid fuel might yield small improvements.  And obviously, the 5th SRB segment adds more performance, too.

All-in-all, I doubt there's 5% of "tweak-tuning" left in these designs.  That's not to say performance couldn't be improved, but probably not through minor tweaks.

Offline David AF

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #8 on: 01/05/2006 02:01 pm »
Quote
JonClarke - 2/1/2006  10:57 PM

To what extent can the performance of the SDLV be upgraded without an extensive redesign?  is it 2%, 5%, 10%

Jon

Out of interest, what do you have in mind for this question to be asked?
F-22 Raptor instructor

Offline Colby

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #9 on: 01/05/2006 09:57 pm »

http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/new_advances_liquid_rockets.html?14102005

Perhaps something like the above to the SSME and/or the J-2S+.  What would they call the J-2S+ then, the J-2S++?  I think it would be time for a new designation.

Colby

Offline MATTBLAK

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #10 on: 01/07/2006 03:26 am »
I would think that uprating the RS-25s (SSME) to 114% percent thrust and adding a third J2S to the EDS would, by my rough calculation, get 139-140 tons to LEO, up from 125. anything else would require major redesign, such as adding a cluster of Gem-60 solids on each side of the corestage structure opposite to the main SRBs. Also, if you deleted the recovery chutes from the SRBs, not having to haul their weight one-quarter of the way to orbit, you might squeeze another 2 tons payload aboard. Or, lowering the assembly orbit from 160nm to 130nm would get another ton or so. The SSMEs were once tested to destruction at about 120% percent, so it's not in the realms of impossibility. Bear in mind though that too many thrust upgrades start to eat into fuel consumption rates which then becomes counter-productive. Upgrade plans would have to balance out all thrust/weight/propellant factors to achieve the optimum.
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Offline BogoMIPS

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #11 on: 01/07/2006 01:49 pm »
Quote
MATTBLAK - 6/1/2006  10:26 PM

I would think that uprating the RS-25s (SSME) to 114% percent thrust and adding a third J2S to the EDS would, by my rough calculation, get 139-140 tons to LEO, up from 125.

Yes, a little more up-rating might increase performance  The question is, do we need it?  NASA's target for heavy lift was 125mT, which this vehicle, as spec'ed, should accomplish.

Is there a specific reason we need to increase that?  Otherwise, we'll keep adjusting the design 'til it can lift 250mT, and then be unable to build it until 2104.  There's plenty of arguments out there suggesting we don't need heavy-lift at all... We should concentrate on our medium lift vehicles to improve their reliability/safety/frequency.

If NASA wants to meet it's goals, it can't overreach, and I don't think it is right now.  It's using the technology it's got, with as minor of redesigns as possible, to get us back out of LEO.

I think your ideas for increased performance are sound, and may be applicable once the system is operational, and we come up with a need to orbit another 10-15 mT per launch.

Offline MATTBLAK

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #12 on: 01/07/2006 10:23 pm »
The upgrades, if needed, could come later (if at all). 139 tons would equal the Saturn V to LEO. and don't forget that in the late 1960s there were many trade studies for Saturn V upgrades (not including solid strap-ons) that would raise the LEO payload to 160 tons.
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Offline simonbp

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #13 on: 01/08/2006 12:54 pm »
Quote
.... 139 tons would equal the Saturn V to LEO....

"LEO Payload: 118,000 kg."

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/saturnv.htm

Simon ;)

Offline MATTBLAK

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #14 on: 01/09/2006 12:44 am »
That was the original specifications. In practice, by the time Apollo 15 flew, the Saturn V could lift 140 tons.
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Offline ADC9

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #15 on: 01/09/2006 06:06 am »
How can SSMEs go over 100 percent in the first place? I don't understand what the 100 percent benchmark represents because of this.

Offline JonClarke

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #16 on: 01/09/2006 06:13 am »
Thanks Matt

140 tonnes to LEO is nice.

Someone asked why I wanted this.  The reason is if the NTR EDS does not work out (as seems possible)  then the Mars mission is going to have to be flown with a chemical EDS.  A payload of 125 tonnes is  bit on the small size to assemble the massive MTV that would be needed.  Assuming the MTV crew module is about 70 tonnes you will need 220 tonnes in LEO.  This leaves only a 14% margin for growth.  A 20% margins means you need 265 tonnes in LEO, so an extra 10-15 tonnes palyoad capacity would be useful, if needed.

Jon

Offline MATTBLAK

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #17 on: 01/09/2006 07:16 am »
>>Reginald Turnill: Observer’s Book Of Manned Spaceflight:
Despite pre-launch problems – namely the launchpad being struck 11 times by lightning, the countdown was flawless and the liftoff occurred at 9:34am EDT, July 26th, 1971. The Saturn V launcher was the most powerful to date, developing 3,556,160 kg (7.84 million pounds) thrust. The on-orbit mass of the Apollo 15 spacecraft and Saturn V third stage was 140.4 tonnes, 2 tonnes heavier than previous spacecraft sent to the moon.<<

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/oped-04zc.html

http://www.shadowsofmedusa.com/science/HLV.php
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Offline BogoMIPS

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #18 on: 01/09/2006 01:16 pm »
Quote
ADC9 - 9/1/2006  1:06 AM

How can SSMEs go over 100 percent in the first place? I don't understand what the 100 percent benchmark represents because of this.

In a nutshell, 100% is the top-rated thrust for the engines when they were originally built.  

They've seen various improvements since then, and instead of changing the measurement scale (and all the documented procedures for thrust levels, most likely), they opted to simply continue rating the thrusters beyond 100%.

Offline CuddlyRocket

RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #19 on: 01/09/2006 04:16 pm »
Quote
ADC9 - 9/1/2006  7:06 AM

How can SSMEs go over 100 percent in the first place? I don't understand what the 100 percent benchmark represents because of this.
One possibility is that 100% refers to the highest safe level of thrust of the engines, although they would be actually capable of more thrust than this. As BogoMIPS says, there have been improvements to the technology, so the safe-level may have increased with time.

This is similar to the difference between full speed and flank speed in various navies. Full speed is the highest you can run the engines at without risking damage etc.  But it is possible to run them faster and you might want to take the risk in certain circumstances. This is why you tend to hear the phrase 'all-ahead, flank' at suitably dramatic moments in various naval war movies.

Offline Jason Sole

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #20 on: 01/09/2006 08:00 pm »
That's the best explanation I've heard on this. Thanks for that.

Offline simonbp

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #21 on: 01/14/2006 10:42 pm »
But wait, mass to orbit is not payload to LEO: The difference between the two is the mass of partially-fuelled S-IVB used for TLI. As the HLLV will use the same scheme, as of ESAS, the mass to a 28 degree orbit is 148.3 metric tons, whereas the actual payload is 126.0 metric tons.

An "upgrade" might be adding a separate TLI stage for more mass to the Moon, but an even larger booster...

Simon ;)

Offline possum

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #22 on: 01/27/2006 07:52 pm »
The SSME's are capable of running at 109% of their original thrust rating and are currently operated at 104%.  There were considerations for running them at 106% for some of the heavy ISS modules when we decided to go to the Russian orbit of 51.6 degrees inclination back in 1993.  However, the SWLT (Super LightWeight Tank) shaved 12,000 lbs from the ET so pushing the SSME's was not necessary.  We also considered fuel densification (super-cooling the LH2 and LO2 to get more in the ET) to run the engines at a higher thrust for a longer duration, but the pad impacts were huge with little increase in performance.  We looked at removing the parachutes and other recovery hardware from the SRB's and ditching them to get more weight to orbit (I would have liked to see films of an SRB hitting the ocean at Mach 2).  Tthe upper stage tanks of SDLV, like the ET, is the best place to reduce weight because a pound off these tanks is a pound to orbit at MECO.  It would take 2 pounds of weight saved from the SRBs and first stage tanks to give an extra pound to orbit.

Offline kraisee

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #23 on: 01/30/2006 08:59 pm »
Technically, if you run the numbers, the CaLV is capable of launching the 126MT to intended orbit (30x60 NM) ***even if it loses one SSME at T-0***, so there is quite a bit of redundancy available.

*IF* an alternative flight criteria were set conciously abandoning the requirement for all engines to function to get a payload to orbit though, and if it were accepted that if one SSME shutdown too early it would cause a complete mission failure and loss of payload, then the CaLV is theoretically capable of putting a little over 148MT of useful payload into the same LEO with *no* physical modifications at all.   But its significantly riskier.

Ross.
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Offline Daniel Handlin

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #24 on: 02/04/2006 01:42 am »
I'm constantly annoyed by the varying sources for Saturn V lift; am I correct in stating that if we don't count the upper stage, Saturn V can lift 118 tonnes to LEO and the CaLV can launch 125 tonnes, and the corresponding masses would be 140 and 148.6 for including the upper stages?

If I remember correctly there were some plans to upgrade the capability of the Saturn V all the way up to 250 tonnes or even 265 on some variants by adding super-duper boosters and more fuel and such (though I'm loath to reference Enyclopedia Astronautica at the moment, take a gander at http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/satnv23l.htm); I think that, in general, the SDLV would be even easier to upgrade because you can still add a third stage onto the vehicle in addition to more SRBs.

Offline MATTBLAK

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #25 on: 02/04/2006 05:29 am »
All true, however I was merely speculating on what upgrades could be done by uprating the corestage engines and adding one more J-2s to the EDS; all for the purpose of not severely altering the moldline of the CALV Heavy. The figure of 139 tons or so to LEO for the Saturn V has come from various books and Nasa Apollo presskits talking about the 'J-Series' Apollo missions. In those missions, the F-1 engines had reportedly been "re-orificed" (sounds rude, don't it?!) for extra thrust, and were run to LOX depletion. Also, the number of retro-rockets between the S-1C and S-2 stages were reduced, fuel reserves were narrowed and some trajectory angle tweaks were introduced: including changing the pre-TLI parking orbit from 115 nautical miles to 90. Because of the increased mass of the LM and CSM, obviously more propellants were needed for TLI. The improved Apollo spacecraft had increased more than 3 tons and so more than twice that amount in extra TLI propellant was needed.

All up that increased the payload to LEO from about 127 tons for Apollo 11 to 139 tons for Apollo 15. If you wanted to increase the Saturn V capability even more without drastically altering it's moldline, there were several options looked at. Conventional wisdom had it that the very-nearly produced F-1A engine; which would produce 1.8 million pounds thrust, and the J-2s, along with Aluminium-Lithium alloys in structures would have gotten us a 155+plus tons to LEO booster. Cool, eh? Are we still sorry they 'threw away' the Saturn V? I am!
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Offline kraisee

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #26 on: 02/05/2006 12:08 am »
Quote
Daniel Handlin - 3/2/2006  9:42 PM

I'm constantly annoyed by the varying sources for Saturn V lift; am I correct in stating that if we don't count the upper stage, Saturn V can lift 118 tonnes to LEO and the CaLV can launch 125 tonnes, and the corresponding masses would be 140 and 148.6 for including the upper stages?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the figures are actually:-

2-stage Sat-V: ~116.5MT
CaLV w/ "engine out" capability: ~106.0MT
CaLV no "engine out" capability: ~120.0MT
CaLV & EDS w/ "engine out" capability: ~126.0MT inc. 22.1MT of EDS for TLI burn
CaLV & EDS no "engine out" capability: ~148.6MT inc. 22.1MT of EDS for TLI burn

Ross.
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Offline MATTBLAK

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #27 on: 02/05/2006 08:34 pm »
148.6 - 22.1 tons (EDS) = 126.5 tons, which is often the quoted payload figure (or 125 tons). In Saturn V payload figures, the S-IVB (15 tons, including Instrument Unit) was left off of some literature, which explains the disparate payload figures, eg; the Saturn V payload is said to be 118 tons, not the 130+plus tons which might be more proper, including the stage that sent that payload there.
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Offline Delta Manager

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #28 on: 02/06/2006 07:06 pm »
Quote
MATTBLAK - 5/2/2006  3:34 PM

148.6 - 22.1 tons (EDS) = 126.5 tons, which is often the quoted payload figure (or 125 tons). In Saturn V payload figures, the S-IVB (15 tons, including Instrument Unit) was left off of some literature, which explains the disparate payload figures, eg; the Saturn V payload is said to be 118 tons, not the 130+plus tons which might be more proper, including the stage that sent that payload there.

Correct sir. A lot of people get that wrong.

Offline MATTBLAK

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #29 on: 02/07/2006 08:22 am »
Thank you.
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Offline kraisee

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #30 on: 02/18/2006 07:18 pm »
Quote
MATTBLAK - 5/2/2006  4:34 PM

148.6 - 22.1 tons (EDS) = 126.5 tons, which is often the quoted payload figure (or 125 tons). In Saturn V payload figures, the S-IVB (15 tons, including Instrument Unit) was left off of some literature, which explains the disparate payload figures, eg; the Saturn V payload is said to be 118 tons, not the 130+plus tons which might be more proper, including the stage that sent that payload there.

Yep, that's right.   The actual max useful payload capacity to LEO wasn't greatly improved by use of the S-IVB 3rd stage, from 116.5MT to 118.0MT - but as you point out, the stage itself also went to that orbit and that then could be used for the TLI burn to send missions to the moon - in precisely the same way the Earth Departure Stage will in the new program.

So, for completeness sake, here's the table now:

2-stage Sat-V: ~116.5MT
3-stage Sat-V: ~132.0MT inc. 14.0MT of S-IVB for TLI burn
CaLV w/ "engine out" capability: ~106.0MT
CaLV no "engine out" capability: ~120.0MT
CaLV & EDS w/ "engine out" capability: ~126.0MT inc. 22.1MT of EDS for TLI burn
CaLV & EDS no "engine out" capability: ~148.6MT inc. 22.1MT of EDS for TLI burn

Ross.
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Offline MATTBLAK

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #31 on: 02/19/2006 06:11 pm »
Looks good!  :)
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Offline publiusr

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #32 on: 02/24/2006 09:20 pm »
I just hope CaLV gets built. Mod it later. If we can get the same institutional inertia behind CaLV that gave us 100 shuttle flights--we will have a REAL space program. We just need to support Griffin--and not the EELV "used-Delta" hucksters.

Offline possum

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #33 on: 02/24/2006 10:49 pm »
Quote
publiusr - 24/2/2006  4:20 PM

I just hope CaLV gets built. Mod it later. If we can get the same institutional inertia behind CaLV that gave us 100 shuttle flights--we will have a REAL space program. We just need to support Griffin--and not the EELV "used-Delta" hucksters.

My only fear is that Exploration is going to be funded in the future based on a "performance as-you-go".  If NASA is years behind schedule and billions over-budget on CEV after the Shuttle is retired, it is conceivable we would be stuck with a CEV to ISS as our future space program.  Congress may not be willing to throw good money after bad.  Going to the moon is not a guarantee.  The people that had the program management experience to do Apollo, and later Shuttle, are not longer around.  I have serious doubts about the talent of the people that are doing some of the Exploration work.  Some of the people that I know are being put in positions like that are idiots without the real experience to pull off such a program who mainly got where they are through local politics and butt-kissing.  In my position, I am going to try to do everything I can to make sure they don't screw it up.  But I have my doubts.

Offline Avron

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #34 on: 02/25/2006 01:51 pm »
Quote
rmathews3 - 24/2/2006  6:49 PM

Quote
publiusr - 24/2/2006  4:20 PM

I just hope CaLV gets built. Mod it later. If we can get the same institutional inertia behind CaLV that gave us 100 shuttle flights--we will have a REAL space program. We just need to support Griffin--and not the EELV "used-Delta" hucksters.

My only fear is that Exploration is going to be funded in the future based on a "performance as-you-go".  If NASA is years behind schedule and billions over-budget on CEV after the Shuttle is retired, it is conceivable we would be stuck with a CEV to ISS as our future space program.  Congress may not be willing to throw good money after bad.  Going to the moon is not a guarantee.  The people that had the program management experience to do Apollo, and later Shuttle, are not longer around.  I have serious doubts about the talent of the people that are doing some of the Exploration work.  Some of the people that I know are being put in positions like that are idiots without the real experience to pull off such a program who mainly got where they are through local politics and butt-kissing.  In my position, I am going to try to do everything I can to make sure they don't screw it up.  But I have my doubts.

I think that maybe the focus is not on spaceflight but elsewhere, ...

Does NASA in general, at upper management level, still have the right stuff?

Offline simonbp

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RE: Upgrading the SDLV
« Reply #35 on: 02/26/2006 05:19 am »
Quote
Avron - 25/2/2006  8:51 AM
I think that maybe the focus is not on spaceflight but elsewhere, ...

Does NASA in general, at upper management level, still have the right stuff?

No offense, but that is kinda a silly question, especially as it perpetuates the myth of the "glorious 1960's NASA" where god-like astronauts and mission controllers somehow congured up magical lunar spacecraft before being oppressed by the evil politicians. In reality, of course, Apollo was a simply a very large government engineering project, one that at the nuts and bolts level was no different from building a bridge. To (mis)quote Jim Lovell, "It's not a miracle, we just decided to go," and it was done so in the hands of competent engineers, scientists, managers, astronauts, and support personal, without whose professionalism, not some mythic "right stuff", it would have been impossible.

The NASA of today has the same high standards as then and, to the best of my knowledge, the same level of professionalism. NASA's upper management knows their stuff and I frankly couldn't think of a way that they could be drastically better. As far as the CaLV is concerned, it's actual implementation is going to be at the level of designing and building a new airliner today: Not easy, but perfectly possible as long as it is properly managed.

Simon ;)

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