Author Topic: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV  (Read 77989 times)

Offline wannamoonbase

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #180 on: 05/24/2017 10:24 pm »
Hawthorne isn't very practical even for 5.2m diameter stages. Beyond 5.2 meters then its downright 100% illogical.
Its been acknowledged by SpaceX a thicker rocket would most likely be built in Brownsville, near Boca Chica and much easier to transport to Florida instead of having to go the long way through the Panama canal.
Hawthorne likely would only build engines, sub assemblies, specialty parts.
The model of building rockets in Hawthorne made sense with high volume construction of road transportable stages. 5.2m, 8m or 10m rockets will not be high volume nor road transportable.

Maybe a building at or beside the port of Long Beach.  Keep your staff local.

They won't be shipping too many of these machines.
Wildly optimistic prediction, Superheavy recovery on IFT-4 or IFT-5

Offline spacenut

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #181 on: 05/24/2017 10:29 pm »
ITS would probably do better launching from either Florida or Texas so manufacturing on an east coast somewhere would be better than long trip through the Panama canal. 

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #182 on: 05/24/2017 11:22 pm »
ITS only has about 4.1 km/s after launch, even with no payload.

I wasn't imagining they'd use the spaceship to deliver satellites... a different fully reusable second stage would be required.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline Senex

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #183 on: 05/25/2017 03:20 am »
ITS would probably do better launching from either Florida or Texas so manufacturing on an east coast somewhere would be better than long trip through the Panama canal.

I think we are missing the potential of a real RLV.

It has been pointed out before that even the F9 is capable of single stage to orbit if it isn't carrying any payload.  Airliners are occasionally flown without passengers to reposition. If true RLV performance is achieved, and costs aren't a lot more that the cost of fuel and launch staff, fly the booster to where it is needed.

Build at Hawthorne (or wherever).  Launch into a minimal orbit.  Wait for an appropriate number of orbits for the earth to turn below the booster.  Then bring it down at Florida, Boca Chica, or where ever you will need to base the booster for its future flights.

True airliner-like RLV changes many things.

Offline hkultala

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #184 on: 05/25/2017 04:00 am »
ITS would probably do better launching from either Florida or Texas so manufacturing on an east coast somewhere would be better than long trip through the Panama canal.

I think we are missing the potential of a real RLV.

I think you are missing the difference between a huge rocket and a small aeroplane.

Quote
It has been pointed out before that even the F9 is capable of single stage to orbit if it isn't carrying any payload.  Airliners are occasionally flown without passengers to reposition. If true RLV performance is achieved, and costs aren't a lot more that the cost of fuel and launch staff, fly the booster to where it is needed.

Build at Hawthorne (or wherever).  Launch into a minimal orbit.

Launch from Hawthorne airfield?

Quote
Wait for an appropriate number of orbits for the earth to turn below the booster.  Then bring it down at Florida, Boca Chica, or where ever you will need to base the booster for its future flights.

True airliner-like RLV changes many things.

Try getting the licence to fly this over Orlando to Cape Canaveral. Not going to happen.

Reusability does not decrease the amount of highly exploive/flammable fuel in the rocket. Actually, it increases it.

Offline macpacheco

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #185 on: 05/25/2017 06:15 am »
I think we are missing the potential of a real RLV.

It has been pointed out before that even the F9 is capable of single stage to orbit if it isn't carrying any payload.  Airliners are occasionally flown without passengers to reposition. If true RLV performance is achieved, and costs aren't a lot more that the cost of fuel and launch staff, fly the booster to where it is needed.

Build at Hawthorne (or wherever).  Launch into a minimal orbit.  Wait for an appropriate number of orbits for the earth to turn below the booster.  Then bring it down at Florida, Boca Chica, or where ever you will need to base the booster for its future flights.

True airliner-like RLV changes many things.
Rockets aren't FAA certified.
The FAA doesn't trust rockets climbing over or even near populated areas. Unless you can propose a corridor tens of miles wide from launch to orbital altitude that is nearly unpopulated (and the same for the landing), that's a big no no.
Until SpaceX can get the FAA agree to a set of rocket certification criteria that is economical for SpaceX to pursue, the FAA will not allow this safety rule to be broken. Such an accomodation is unlikely.
Perhaps is some day SpaceX can achieve hundreds of successful launches in a row, with zero failures for ITS rockets, this has a change in a million to change.
The only way this could be doable is if SpaceX could load ITS boosters onto a barge that could distance itself from shore, and launch the rocket so it cannot crash onto any californian city and then on the other side land on a barge, so the re-entry process is done 100% after the rocket is over sea again.

This is the reason why, ITS rockets will not be built in California. Just saying.
« Last Edit: 05/25/2017 06:17 am by macpacheco »
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Offline JamesH65

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #186 on: 05/25/2017 08:55 am »
Odd thread. So many theories, and yet what it boils down to is....

Make the hull/large composite parts at the launch site, everything else that is road transportable can be made where most convenient. Hawthorne for engines, avionics etc. Just bolt in to the hull at the launch site.

Why would they do anything else?

Offline dror

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #187 on: 05/25/2017 09:25 am »
Odd thread. So many theories, and yet what it boils down to is....

Make the hull/large composite parts at the launch site, everything else that is road transportable can be made where most convenient. Hawthorne for engines, avionics etc. Just bolt in to the hull at the launch site.

Why would they do anything else?
This is exactly what Musk replied to Helodriver at IAC.
And it has nothing to do with the intermediate
Space is hard immensely complex and high risk !

Offline JamesH65

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #188 on: 05/25/2017 11:23 am »
Odd thread. So many theories, and yet what it boils down to is....

Make the hull/large composite parts at the launch site, everything else that is road transportable can be made where most convenient. Hawthorne for engines, avionics etc. Just bolt in to the hull at the launch site.

Why would they do anything else?
This is exactly what Musk replied to Helodriver at IAC.
And it has nothing to do with the intermediate

That's because there isn't one.

Offline envy887

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #189 on: 05/25/2017 12:01 pm »
ITS would probably do better launching from either Florida or Texas so manufacturing on an east coast somewhere would be better than long trip through the Panama canal.

I think we are missing the potential of a real RLV.

It has been pointed out before that even the F9 is capable of single stage to orbit if it isn't carrying any payload.  Airliners are occasionally flown without passengers to reposition. If true RLV performance is achieved, and costs aren't a lot more that the cost of fuel and launch staff, fly the booster to where it is needed.

Build at Hawthorne (or wherever).  Launch into a minimal orbit.  Wait for an appropriate number of orbits for the earth to turn below the booster.  Then bring it down at Florida, Boca Chica, or where ever you will need to base the booster for its future flights.

True airliner-like RLV changes many things.

The booster will absolutely not survive orbital reentry. But it could do suborbital hops of ~1000 km.

Offline AncientU

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #190 on: 05/25/2017 12:02 pm »
...
That's because there isn't one.

IYO
« Last Edit: 05/25/2017 12:03 pm by AncientU »
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Offline rakaydos

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #191 on: 05/25/2017 01:43 pm »
...
That's because there isn't one.

IYO
Raptor 9 is redundant with falcon heavy.

A Raptor 1, though...

Offline spacenut

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #192 on: 05/25/2017 01:58 pm »
Intermediate can be up to 12 million lbs thrust to launch at pads 39A or 39B.  That is smaller than full blown ITS, but could still do far more than FH.  100-150 tons to LEO and use existing infrastructure.  However it too would be large and would at least need to be manufactured near and east coast or gulf coast waterway to get to the cape.  Therefore it makes sense to make an intermediate one either near Boca Chica or the Cape at Florida.  The land around the cape in Florida will be expensive, Brownsville and Boca Chica not so much. 

Offline envy887

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #193 on: 05/25/2017 02:07 pm »
...
That's because there isn't one.

IYO
Raptor 9 is redundant with falcon heavy.

A Raptor 1, though...

Payloads sized for a single Raptor LV can be economically launched by F9 with booster RTLS.

A 9 Raptor LV is much bigger than FH. Comparable to SLS Block 1B.

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #194 on: 05/25/2017 02:57 pm »
...
That's because there isn't one.

IYO
Raptor 9 is redundant with falcon heavy.

A Raptor 1, though...

It is a replacement.

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #195 on: 05/25/2017 02:58 pm »
A 9 Raptor LV is much bigger than FH. Comparable to SLS Block 1B.

Not comparable in cost. Cost is the relevant metric.

Offline gospacex

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #196 on: 05/25/2017 03:27 pm »
Intermediate can be up to 12 million lbs thrust to launch at pads 39A or 39B.  That is smaller than full blown ITS, but could still do far more than FH.  100-150 tons to LEO and use existing infrastructure.  However it too would be large and would at least need to be manufactured near and east coast or gulf coast waterway to get to the cape.

It also makes a lot of sense to have one new factory, not two. Thus, ITS factory and factory for "intermediate" LV (if it happens) will be the same new factory.
« Last Edit: 05/25/2017 03:27 pm by gospacex »

Offline gospacex

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #197 on: 05/25/2017 03:29 pm »
...
That's because there isn't one.

IYO
Raptor 9 is redundant with falcon heavy.

But requires only 9 engines, not 27. Or maybe Raptor 7 with only 7. Even if reuse works wonderfully, that large difference is important (for example, fewer checks between flights).

And with Raptor intermediate, you can (eventually) phase out Merlins and RP-1, going bact to having one fuel everywhere.
« Last Edit: 05/25/2017 03:30 pm by gospacex »

Offline Jim

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #198 on: 05/25/2017 04:24 pm »
...If it wants that, a successor to F9 booster is developed: larger diameter (say, 5.2m) first stage using the same tech as ITS (if current plans hold, it would be fiber-wound tankage and Raptors). Pads are converted piecemeal to this 5.2m rocket.
...

They won't want it. The only time for an intermediate methane vehicle is before the full Mars architecture is operating. "ITS will obsolete every existing rocket."

Plans change. Sometime ago SpaceX thought RP-1 is the best fuel for a booster.

They still think it is.  But not for a mars vehicle.

Offline JamesH65

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Re: Speculation thread: intermediate-lift Raptor-derived RLV
« Reply #199 on: 05/26/2017 10:04 am »
...
That's because there isn't one.

IYO

Well, if you can point me at any publicly available documentation that there is one, I am more than happy  to be proven wrong.

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