Author Topic: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application  (Read 692015 times)

Offline frobnicat

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1840 on: 12/19/2014 01:57 AM »
Mach effects follow up. I post on this thread (that I must admit haven't read quite yet) because seems more on topic than the other propellantless thread titled "EM drive".

Before the discussion on first thread "EM drive development" got interrupted I wondered what kind of proof of science (not proof of application) could be devised about reality of Mach effect and Ron Stahl told us about positive results with "rotator" experiments done by Woodward (but scientific community apparently ignored that...). No direct link were provided and it took me a bit of time to do a circle to physics forums (with comments from AcesHigh linking back to NSF) and Next Big Future where I learnt that the device was named "Mark-III rotary test rig" which sent me right back to NSF where Star-Drive (Paul March) attached an article (and a revised edition a few posts after on the thread)

I don't know which version is referenced as :
Woodward, J.F., A Test for the Existence of Mach Effects With a Rotary Device, in the proceedings of Space, Propulsion & Energy Sciences International Forum (SPESIF-10), edited by Glen A. Robertson, AIP CP1208, Melville, New York, 2010 p. 227-236.

It appears NSF forum, posted by Paul March, is the only place this important fundamental research work is available (freely, it is paywalled on AIP proceedings site). Searching for references shows only a work (devising an alternative experiment, no actual results) by Buldrini also hosted on NSF thread "Propellantless Field Propulsion and application"

Looks like NSF is becoming the only arxiv of those works.

So it's not that this attempt by Woodward at an experiment specifically aimed at detectable Mach effect (not usable) did meet rejection or refutation or scientific community outrage : it was utterly ignored, as far as publications or public statements go. This was 4 years ago and comments dating of that time, on this very thread, are still relevant concerning the necessity of this work and its caveats (starting about there...). This line of inquiry (concentrating on showing the reality of an effect) that in domains dealing with not obvious fundamental science would be the right way to proceed, seems to have been completely abandoned at an incomplete stage, but is still reffered by proponents as conclusive.

While I'm at it : this post summarises well my impression on Mach effect and concludes by
Quote from: Jonathan Scott
... if there is any possibility of some propellantless drive, it cannot arise from combining existing physical effects in a new complicated way, as all of those physical effects are known to be subject to the local conservation rules. It can only arise from new physics.

Proponents keep on insisting that their Machian derivations are fully GR compatible. I don't see the necessity of adding anything to SR/GR to get a prediction of what will happen to the mass when having a varying power (second energy derivative) applied to a bulk accelerating material : nothing more than a small integrated E/c² term on the rest mass.

edit : "A Test for the Existence of Mach Effects With a Rotary Device" appears not to be mentioned in Woodward's book "Making Starships and Stargates"

« Last Edit: 12/19/2014 10:03 AM by frobnicat »

Offline Cinder

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1841 on: 12/19/2014 04:33 AM »
Paul March also posted at Talk-Polywell.  IIRC it was usually the same content there as what he shared here, but that's my vague memory as a non-professional spectator.  His user name at TP is "paulmarch".
« Last Edit: 12/19/2014 04:33 AM by Cinder »
The pork must flow.

Offline aceshigh

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1842 on: 12/21/2014 11:32 PM »
Presentation of Mach Effect at NASA
http://aspw.jpl.nasa.gov/files/ASPW2014%20PRESENTATIONS/WEDNESDAY/Breakthrough%20Prop/Fearn.pdf

NextBigFuture post
http://nextbigfuture.com/2014/12/recent-mach-effect-theory-and.html#disqus_thread

DeltaV post at Talk Polywell with links to presentation and other papers, which gave origin to the NBF post
Quote from: DeltaV
Mach Effect Thruster Development
http://aspw.jpl.nasa.gov/files/ASPW2014%20ABSTRACTS/WEDNESDAY/Fearn.pdf

Theory & Experimental Work on Mach Effect Thrusters (MET)
http://aspw.jpl.nasa.gov/files/ASPW2014%20PRESENTATIONS/WEDNESDAY/Breakthrough%20Prop/Fearn.pdf

Mach’s principle, Action at a Distance and Cosmology
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1412.5426v1

Online Stormbringer

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1843 on: 12/22/2014 12:03 AM »
please cross post to the mach effect thread too :)

May as well consolidate all Mach Effect/Woodward stuff  so that searchers don't have to go through dozens of threads to find relevant information. That's how I go here; looking for stuff on White/QVPT/Warp interferometer experiment in google.
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline aceshigh

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1844 on: 12/22/2014 04:11 PM »
please cross post to the mach effect thread too :)

do we have a Mach Effect dedicated thread here? Share the link and I will crosspost.

Offline D_Dom

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Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #1845 on: 12/22/2014 05:31 PM »
Try this, it was somewhat highjacked;
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31037.465
May be brought back on-topic...
Space is not merely a matter of life or death, it is considerably more important than that!

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