Author Topic: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon  (Read 23772 times)

Online redliox

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Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« on: 04/30/2016 11:18 am »
While there is a separate MSR thread, I thought to delve into how recent news may impact it.

For one reason or another, sample return has been kicked around like a can in Planetary Science.  It has remained a heavy priority...but never actually implemented.  For about the last 20 years the best plan came down to a 3 part mission: a rover, a lander, and orbiter; the rover collects, the lander launches, and the orbiter returns.  Excluding the complications of tele-robotics with a ~20 minutes light speed lag, it isn't unfeasible since we could build each element with current technology.

Curiosity was supposed to be "the rover" to collect, but (even with the launch window delay) there wasn't time to add a collection system.  Mars 2020 then seemed "the rover," poised to do some collection.  Nitpicking about sample collection has complicated it some, result being there's going to be numerous small tubes spread across its path for yet another rover to collect.

The orbiter-ERV element might appear in 2022; an option exists for the next Mars orbiter, in addition to testing electric propulsion, to play a direct part of MSR.  It's questionable, mainly because this same orbiter was supposed to fill the upcoming void in telecommunications anticipated for future Mars mission.

And now, Red Dragon is curiously timed to land ahead of both the rover and orbiter, and its mission seems to be testing landing technology.  Curious...although I doubt Red Dragon is going to be involved with either the 2020 or 2022 missions.

This Red Dragon anyway...

It is already known SpaceX offered a way to deliver a sample from Mars to Earth, using 2 launches, the second only required to pickup the capsule from Earth orbit, instead of at Mars orbit.  Considering how the Red Dragon may prove to be a tremendous game changer for human spaceflight sooner than expected...should we expect a similar effect for Mars Sample Return?
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Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« Reply #1 on: 04/30/2016 11:50 am »
Is the Red Dragon carrying a Mars ascend vehicle with an Earth return vehicle? So the orbiter to returmn the samples is no longer required?

Online redliox

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Re: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« Reply #2 on: 04/30/2016 06:14 pm »
The early approach was a single container with up to 30+ individual sample tubes. Then they discussed the possibility of dropping out the sample tubes perhaps in groups of three along the rover track. The current approach involves up to three collected caches--three containers of approximately 10 tubes apiece--deposited to a single site located between two collection areas.

We now return to hyperbolic speculation about Red Dragon.

Mars sample return has pretty much been hyperbolic speculation.  Thus far the collection rover idea has been the only piece of the 3 parts engineered...and it's turned into 4 parts instead with a second rover required hence my criticism.

How will the 3 sample containers be different from the large 31-tube capsule originally conceived?  In addition to sample preservation wasn't available space for these tubes and containers another issue?

Regarding Red Dragon, it may be the lander piece required for MSR.
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Offline RonM

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Re: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« Reply #3 on: 04/30/2016 06:23 pm »
Due to the complexity of sample return, you're not going to see that on Red Dragon 2018. Maybe later flights.

Online redliox

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Re: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« Reply #4 on: 04/30/2016 06:33 pm »
Due to the complexity of sample return, you're not going to see that on Red Dragon 2018. Maybe later flights.

Exactly.  Someone's going to take advantage of the design, and if MSR has been such a high priority for so long...
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Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« Reply #5 on: 04/30/2016 08:58 pm »
Considering the NASA slides dating to 2013 show MSR using Red Dragon I would not be surprised if the 2018 flight has MSR. They have had 3 years to work out more the details. The MAV is simple but the return spacecraft is more complex but if it is designed around cubesat technologies and off the shelf components for its GNC and propulsion systems it could be ready by 2018. In all trying would not hurt and it might even work. The fallback is you can always gather more samples and try again in 2 years.

Offline Tim Alexander

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Re: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« Reply #6 on: 04/30/2016 09:47 pm »

...

2-That's not the current sample collection system. The early approach was a single container with up to 30+ individual sample tubes. Then they discussed the possibility of dropping out the sample tubes perhaps in groups of three along the rover track. The current approach involves up to three collected caches--three containers of approximately 10 tubes apiece--deposited to a single site located between two collection areas.


I'm sorry if I'm being a bit dense here. Do you mean the current planning is to deposit all three full containers at one site near its roving area? Or that it will take 10(ish) samples (including blanks etc.) at a time from one collection area/along one section of route, and then put them down, three times in separate locations?
Or another strategy entirely? Apologies if this is obvious to everyone else.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« Reply #7 on: 04/30/2016 10:38 pm »
No sample return in 2018, that much should be clear. Better to do sample return after you've tested the EDL system.

My guess is an ISRU experiment and maybe the infamous greenhouse. Sample return is more expensive and would require a much stricter planetary protection regiment. It's better done at a later time.
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Offline Impaler

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Re: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« Reply #8 on: 04/30/2016 11:22 pm »
It would certainly seem that a sample collecting rover should cache all the samples and retain them on itself so that the rover can subsequently bring them to the assent vehicle.  A second rover should be unnecessary and presents another source of failure.

A possible alternate sample return method might be for the sample carrying assent vehicle to take the sample to Phobos where it can sit on the surface (landing can be simple air-cushioned impact).  Then when the first manned orbital mission visits Phobos they can collect the cache easily via EVA while simultaneously getting samples of Phobos itself.  Having Astronauts manually collect the sample cache should also allow for thorough PP quarantine procedures.

This would simplify the sample return mission while also dove-tailing into a manned mission which would help make an orbital manned mission more attractive as sample return is considered a major reason to do a surface landing, collecting a cached sample would thus be a kind of consolation prize.

Offline Lar

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Re: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« Reply #9 on: 04/30/2016 11:56 pm »
Maybe this isn't the right thread to ask this but why is sample return considered so high value? It seems now that wait a few more years and you will have samples in the tonne range if you want them.

(I totally agree that 2018 is not at all about sample return)
« Last Edit: 04/30/2016 11:59 pm by Lar »
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline Oli

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Re: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« Reply #10 on: 05/01/2016 12:11 am »
Maybe this isn't the right thread to ask this but why is sample return considered so high value? It seems now that wait a few more years and you will have samples in the tonne range if you want them.

That's like saying we shouldn't invest in solar because fusion is just around the corner.

Offline Lar

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Re: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« Reply #11 on: 05/01/2016 12:34 am »
Maybe this isn't the right thread to ask this but why is sample return considered so high value? It seems now that wait a few more years and you will have samples in the tonne range if you want them.

That's like saying we shouldn't invest in solar because fusion is just around the corner.
It would be... if the likelihoods were analogous. But they're not.
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« Reply #12 on: 05/01/2016 01:15 am »
Also, there's a contamination concern. A completely robotic sample return could be more easily and more thoroughly sterilized. This would mean that if life is found, there'd be much less question about veracity.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

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Offline RonM

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Re: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« Reply #13 on: 05/01/2016 01:51 am »
Maybe this isn't the right thread to ask this but why is sample return considered so high value? It seems now that wait a few more years and you will have samples in the tonne range if you want them.

(I totally agree that 2018 is not at all about sample return)

I think sample returns from a possible colony site would be important. Get an idea what's there before committing to it.

Offline Lar

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Re: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« Reply #14 on: 05/01/2016 02:20 am »
Maybe this isn't the right thread to ask this but why is sample return considered so high value? It seems now that wait a few more years and you will have samples in the tonne range if you want them.


Read the planetary science decadal survey for the justification for sample return.

Only fan boys believe that we'll have "samples in the tonne range" anytime soon.
I'll cop to fan boy, and gladly[1]. but to a layman it's hard to see how the low mass returned is still worth it. But, If the decadal survey says so, fine. I've found it rather unprofitable/foolish/stupid to argue against that. So great. This tech can do the job, so use it. After the first mission(s).

I think our definitions of "any time soon" may differ. 20 years out I think it's a better than even chance we will have that capability.. But then I'm a believer in MCT. It is so wild to contemplate that it requires faith, I acknowledge that. But it's looking better all the time...

1 - You probably were using it as an insult, which is fine. I consider it a compliment which no doubt will make you snicker. That's cool too, you have the chops, I don't.
« Last Edit: 05/01/2016 02:22 am by Lar »
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Online redliox

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Re: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« Reply #15 on: 05/01/2016 02:22 am »
Maybe this isn't the right thread to ask this but why is sample return considered so high value? It seems now that wait a few more years and you will have samples in the tonne range if you want them.


Read the planetary science decadal survey for the justification for sample return.

Only fan boys believe that we'll have "samples in the tonne range" anytime soon.

Even I have to agree there.  On top of that, some tests are sensitive enough that only grams are required.  Most samples returned have been on the order of 100 grams or so (exception being Apollo).  A few kilograms from Mars would be ample, although the more the better.  My argument for Red Dragon is not so much for mass returned but a more robust way to return it.
« Last Edit: 05/01/2016 02:23 am by redliox »
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Online redliox

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Re: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« Reply #16 on: 05/01/2016 02:34 am »
That's not the current sample collection system. The early approach was a single container with up to 30+ individual sample tubes. Then they discussed the possibility of dropping out the sample tubes perhaps in groups of three along the rover track. The current approach involves up to three collected caches--three containers of approximately 10 tubes apiece--deposited to a single site located between two collection areas.

None of the NASA websites have mentioned this change in strategy.  Have they given thought to the retrieval rover and lander for that matter?
"Let the trails lead where they may, I will follow."
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Offline nadreck

Re: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« Reply #17 on: 05/01/2016 02:46 am »
  A few kilograms from Mars would be ample, although the more the better. 

While I don't expect tonnes of samples to be returned, I would expect hundreds of tonnes cores to be drilled and examined in place over the next 20 to 30 years. Before people get there though, robotic and tele-presence examination of cores will lead to 'high grading' some core segments to be returned if possible. For example if there were a core taken that for whatever reason some section of it was presumed to be in the >1 billion year old range and there was anything that suggested sedimentary layers the most interesting of those would be candidates for very vigorous follow up.
It is all well and good to quote those things that made it past your confirmation bias that other people wrote, but this is a discussion board damnit! Let us know what you think! And why!

Offline CuddlyRocket

Re: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« Reply #18 on: 05/01/2016 08:09 am »
Maybe this isn't the right thread to ask this but why is sample return considered so high value? It seems now that wait a few more years and you will have samples in the tonne range if you want them.


Read the planetary science decadal survey for the justification for sample return.

Only fan boys believe that we'll have "samples in the tonne range" anytime soon.
I'll cop to fan boy, and gladly[1]. but to a layman it's hard to see how the low mass returned is still worth it. But, If the decadal survey says so, fine. I've found it rather unprofitable/foolish/stupid to argue against that. So great. This tech can do the job, so use it. After the first mission(s).

I think our definitions of "any time soon" may differ. 20 years out I think it's a better than even chance we will have that capability.. But then I'm a believer in MCT. It is so wild to contemplate that it requires faith, I acknowledge that. But it's looking better all the time...

I tend to agree with you. And I expect so does SpaceX as they anticipate sending humans to Mars sooner rather than later. Any human mission will increase the scientific return by orders of magnitude; apart from being far more efficient at sample selection, they can do research in-situ as well as bring samples back. But hey, if someone wants to pay SpaceX to do a sample return, I'm sure the company will accommodate them!

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Mars Sample Return - Enter the Red Dragon
« Reply #19 on: 05/01/2016 09:26 am »
Also, there's a contamination concern. A completely robotic sample return could be more easily and more thoroughly sterilized. This would mean that if life is found, there'd be much less question about veracity.

I want to make the opposite argument. If people go and get in contact with martian life, that will determine the risks. The time until earth return is long enough as quarantine to rule out any actual risk to earth. The risk to a group of astronauts remains but it is small enough to take it when the same risk taken by all humanity is not.

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