Inverted. Spot the differenceI can't.
Quote from: rfmwguy on 06/19/2015 06:55 pmFuture considerations:Should the emdrive become a reality, I can envision a next-generation of high-power, miniaturized frustums (from my old filter days - when these were the newest disruptive innovation/technology introduced)Speaking of disruptive technologies; this was from back in April, hard to tell if this was discussed or not as an option but:http://www.nasa.gov/marshall/news/nasa-3-D-prints-first-full-scale-copper-rocket-engine-part.htmlsmall frustum models should be easier and faster to 'print' than a whole engine part.
Future considerations:Should the emdrive become a reality, I can envision a next-generation of high-power, miniaturized frustums (from my old filter days - when these were the newest disruptive innovation/technology introduced)
...BTW - Has anyone looked at filtering the output of wideband sources (Magnetron) before injecting to the frustum? Don't recall seeing in the thread(s) but I haven't read all yet.
Quote from: Fugudaddy on 06/20/2015 02:13 amQuote from: rfmwguy on 06/19/2015 06:55 pmFuture considerations:Should the emdrive become a reality, I can envision a next-generation of high-power, miniaturized frustums (from my old filter days - when these were the newest disruptive innovation/technology introduced)Speaking of disruptive technologies; this was from back in April, hard to tell if this was discussed or not as an option but:http://www.nasa.gov/marshall/news/nasa-3-D-prints-first-full-scale-copper-rocket-engine-part.htmlsmall frustum models should be easier and faster to 'print' than a whole engine part.Hello - first time poster - long time reader - trying to refresh my 40 year ago physics and math heh heh. I have been looking into 3d printing with some of the new filament types (filled filament ceramics, conductives) with the intent of seeing if printing frustums for testing is starting to be both practical and affordable and where variations in geometry and operating point can be tested more easily.Ceramics can be worked to desired smoothness and accuracy at the bisque stage and then fired, followed by deposition plating of desired material - all within some DIY capabilities. Conductive filaments may not quite be there yet but we are getting close. In terms of size, printing something like the Baby EMDrive wouldn't be hard but larger (Yang et al) would likely require printing in parts and assembling, with associated mechanical challenges. I am particularly looking at how to do this and maintain the interior qualitative and quantitative requirements, in particular as I want to do some experiments at lower frequencies - perhaps as low as ham radio 30cm band - spectrally pure rf sources with significant power are fairly common - although the frustum gets pretty big.I think there is a real need for more data points (positive and/or negative results - they are all meaningful as long as experimental setup is well documented) in effects of frequency and geometry. This seems to be to be an area where DIYers can add valuable data. BTW - Has anyone looked at filtering the output of wideband sources (Magnetron) before injecting to the frustum? Don't recall seeing in the thread(s) but I haven't read all yet.
...Hello...must say, your first post was light-years ahead of mine many pages ago . I'm putting together a DUT using Yang dimensions and copper mesh w/8W to try and obtain some lower Q, lower power data points. Think its about 1 month away...
Quote from: rfmwguy on 06/20/2015 01:45 pm...Hello...must say, your first post was light-years ahead of mine many pages ago . I'm putting together a DUT using Yang dimensions and copper mesh w/8W to try and obtain some lower Q, lower power data points. Think its about 1 month away...A reminder to all that the only EM Drive researchers that have provided all dimensions of a tested truncated cone EM Drive have been Paul March at NASA, Iulian Berca and @Movax (Baby EM Drive). Everybody else has failed to provide all required dimensions, hence the dimensions for Shawyer's and Yang's EM Drive's are best estimates based on their data. Prof. Yang only provided the length of the truncated cone. The other dimensions had to be estimated (interpolated) from her geometrical ratio charts and frequency.
...OK, you've got mine at 11.01 x 6.25 x 9.91"L as discussed with you and Traveller.
...4) Todd "WarpTech" has posted that magnetrons give a DC component that may be crucial to the EM Drive providing any significant thrust.
Quote from: Rodal on 06/20/2015 01:27 pm...4) Todd "WarpTech" has posted that magnetrons give a DC component that may be crucial to the EM Drive providing any significant thrust.I'll tell you, I spent the past few days trying to find a solution using AC, GHz resonance. I've tried Maxwell's equations, Lorentz transformations, treating photons like massive particles per that paper I found the other day, and even a case where conservation of energy was blatantly violated. Every calculation results in 0-NET Momentum transfer to the frustum. I've done so much number crunching, my notebook is running low on paper!I've even re-wrtitten SPR's Relativistic derivation correctly. The result was surprising, that regardless if waves are traveling forward or backward inside the frustum, the frustum always feels a push "forward" toward the small end. However, what reaches the big end ALWAYS cancels what was gained. Attenuation (velocity), cone angle, Q, make no difference at all to these results.1. Remove the big end cover and it would thrust like an antenna.2. Add losses that take away some of the energy reaching the big end, or let some leak out and then there will be thrust.3. Add exponentially increasing or decreasing (DC) currents and allow DC fields to escape through the big end, then there will be thrust.None of which result in thrust greater than a photon rocket, though if we have a 1000's of Amps DC stored when AC is at highest Q, then a photon rocket is in the ball park, just not continuously.Todd
I've even re-wrtitten SPR's Relativistic derivation correctly. The result was surprising, that regardless if waves are traveling forward or backward inside the frustum, the frustum always feels a push "forward" toward the small end. However, what reaches the big end ALWAYS cancels what was gained. Attenuation (velocity), cone angle, Q, make no difference at all to these results.
Quote from: WarpTech on 06/20/2015 04:11 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/20/2015 01:27 pm...4) Todd "WarpTech" has posted that magnetrons give a DC component that may be crucial to the EM Drive providing any significant thrust.I'll tell you, I spent the past few days trying to find a solution using AC, GHz resonance. I've tried Maxwell's equations, Lorentz transformations, treating photons like massive particles per that paper I found the other day, and even a case where conservation of energy was blatantly violated. Every calculation results in 0-NET Momentum transfer to the frustum. I've done so much number crunching, my notebook is running low on paper!I've even re-wrtitten SPR's Relativistic derivation correctly. The result was surprising, that regardless if waves are traveling forward or backward inside the frustum, the frustum always feels a push "forward" toward the small end. However, what reaches the big end ALWAYS cancels what was gained. Attenuation (velocity), cone angle, Q, make no difference at all to these results.1. Remove the big end cover and it would thrust like an antenna.2. Add losses that take away some of the energy reaching the big end, or let some leak out and then there will be thrust.3. Add exponentially increasing or decreasing (DC) currents and allow DC fields to escape through the big end, then there will be thrust.None of which result in thrust greater than a photon rocket, though if we have a 1000's of Amps DC stored when AC is at highest Q, then a photon rocket is in the ball park, just not continuously.ToddMass/Energy needs to escape and amplification is needed as well.The amplification factor reported over a photon rocket is 80 to 6,000 times for NASA's experiments850 times for Iulian Berca's experiments5,000 to 100,000 times for Shawyer's experiments300,000 times for Prof. Yang's experiments
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/jpa-00246781/documentOn the other hand, the 60 mm length of this region corresponds to a delay time of 0.2 nsec of light in vacuum, this is clearly longer than the measured delay in the first 5 nsec duration of the pulse superluminal conditions are present both for the center of gravity and the maximum value of the electromagnetic packet. Furthermore this confirmes the correctness of the frequency domain data and the corresponding Fourier evaluation [2, 3]. The zerc-time traversal described in references [2] and [3] proves to be correct, I-e- there is no additional time delay caused by an additional length of the evanescent region.<end quote>
Quote from: Rodal on 06/20/2015 05:59 pmQuote from: WarpTech on 06/20/2015 04:11 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/20/2015 01:27 pm...4) Todd "WarpTech" has posted that magnetrons give a DC component that may be crucial to the EM Drive providing any significant thrust.I'll tell you, I spent the past few days trying to find a solution using AC, GHz resonance. I've tried Maxwell's equations, Lorentz transformations, treating photons like massive particles per that paper I found the other day, and even a case where conservation of energy was blatantly violated. Every calculation results in 0-NET Momentum transfer to the frustum. I've done so much number crunching, my notebook is running low on paper!I've even re-wrtitten SPR's Relativistic derivation correctly. The result was surprising, that regardless if waves are traveling forward or backward inside the frustum, the frustum always feels a push "forward" toward the small end. However, what reaches the big end ALWAYS cancels what was gained. Attenuation (velocity), cone angle, Q, make no difference at all to these results.1. Remove the big end cover and it would thrust like an antenna.2. Add losses that take away some of the energy reaching the big end, or let some leak out and then there will be thrust.3. Add exponentially increasing or decreasing (DC) currents and allow DC fields to escape through the big end, then there will be thrust.None of which result in thrust greater than a photon rocket, though if we have a 1000's of Amps DC stored when AC is at highest Q, then a photon rocket is in the ball park, just not continuously.ToddMass/Energy needs to escape and amplification is needed as well.The amplification factor reported over a photon rocket is 80 to 6,000 times for NASA's experiments850 times for Iulian Berca's experiments5,000 to 100,000 times for Shawyer's experiments300,000 times for Prof. Yang's experimentsWhen you hit a Frustum with a spewing magnetron @2.45Ghz radiating across the harmonics of four modes, TE011, TE012, TE111 and coupled with a heavy DC component popping on and off at 6ohz how can you calculate anything with that small slice of action in your calculations? Anyone take those three TE modes and digitally combine them into 1?Shell
Quote from: SeeShells on 06/19/2015 06:54 pmhttps://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/jpa-00246781/documentOn the other hand, the 60 mm length of this region corresponds to a delay time of 0.2 nsec of light in vacuum, this is clearly longer than the measured delay in the first 5 nsec duration of the pulse superluminal conditions are present both for the center of gravity and the maximum value of the electromagnetic packet. Furthermore this confirmes the correctness of the frequency domain data and the corresponding Fourier evaluation [2, 3]. The zerc-time traversal described in references [2] and [3] proves to be correct, I-e- there is no additional time delay caused by an additional length of the evanescent region.<end quote>I know group velocities can appear greater than the speed of light but because the wave form information was previously propagated at light speed. I suspect that may be what is happening and maybe this is what this paper is also suggesting. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=3707515693059191286&hl=en&as_sdt=5,48&sciodt=0,48It is an interesting question.
Quote from: SeeShells on 06/20/2015 06:55 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/20/2015 05:59 pmQuote from: WarpTech on 06/20/2015 04:11 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/20/2015 01:27 pm...I can't calculate any thrust without mass/energy escaping the frustum somehow. That's what bothers me the most. I can't see how can the center of mass of an object be accelerated purely from the inside without expelling mass/energy to produce the thrust.Evanescent waves can escape using the DC component of the magnetron to "ride" on through the copper. We know they will appear upto a 1/3 wavelength from an antenna. Also what has bothered me how can a evanescent wave that travels in a superluminal fashion even see normal vectors in matter and other waveforms? Where is the coupling mechanism that can effect a 2 vectored superluminal wave?Whether these questions point you into another direction is unknown but these are the ones I'm puzzling over right now. Out to a steak cookout and a effervescent beverage. Have a good one all!!!Shell
Quote from: Rodal on 06/20/2015 05:59 pmQuote from: WarpTech on 06/20/2015 04:11 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/20/2015 01:27 pm...I can't calculate any thrust without mass/energy escaping the frustum somehow. That's what bothers me the most. I can't see how can the center of mass of an object be accelerated purely from the inside without expelling mass/energy to produce the thrust.Evanescent waves can escape using the DC component of the magnetron to "ride" on through the copper. We know they will appear upto a 1/3 wavelength from an antenna. Also what has bothered me how can a evanescent wave that travels in a superluminal fashion even see normal vectors in matter and other waveforms? Where is the coupling mechanism that can effect a 2 vectored superluminal wave?Whether these questions point you into another direction is unknown but these are the ones I'm puzzling over right now. Out to a steak cookout and a effervescent beverage. Have a good one all!!!Shell
Quote from: WarpTech on 06/20/2015 04:11 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/20/2015 01:27 pm...I can't calculate any thrust without mass/energy escaping the frustum somehow. That's what bothers me the most. I can't see how can the center of mass of an object be accelerated purely from the inside without expelling mass/energy to produce the thrust.Evanescent waves can escape using the DC component of the magnetron to "ride" on through the copper. We know they will appear upto a 1/3 wavelength from an antenna. Also what has bothered me how can a evanescent wave that travels in a superluminal fashion even see normal vectors in matter and other waveforms? Where is the coupling mechanism that can effect a 2 vectored superluminal wave?Whether these questions point you into another direction is unknown but these are the ones I'm puzzling over right now. Out to a steak cookout and a effervescent beverage. Have a good one all!!!Shell
Quote from: Rodal on 06/20/2015 01:27 pm...I can't calculate any thrust without mass/energy escaping the frustum somehow. That's what bothers me the most. I can't see how can the center of mass of an object be accelerated purely from the inside without expelling mass/energy to produce the thrust.Evanescent waves can escape using the DC component of the magnetron to "ride" on through the copper. We know they will appear upto a 1/3 wavelength from an antenna. Also what has bothered me how can a evanescent wave that travels in a superluminal fashion even see normal vectors in matter and other waveforms? Where is the coupling mechanism that can effect a 2 vectored superluminal wave?Whether these questions point you into another direction is unknown but these are the ones I'm puzzling over right now. Out to a steak cookout and a effervescent beverage. Have a good one all!!!Shell
...I can't calculate any thrust without mass/energy escaping the frustum somehow. That's what bothers me the most. I can't see how can the center of mass of an object be accelerated purely from the inside without expelling mass/energy to produce the thrust.
Same guy who designed the EagleWorks Warp Ship...Told me he was commissioned to do this work by same source that commissioned him to do the Warp Ship work.
Quote from: rfmwguy on 06/20/2015 03:39 pm...OK, you've got mine at 11.01 x 6.25 x 9.91"L as discussed with you and Traveller.OK, those dimensions are actually closer to NASA's and Iulian Berca's truncated cone geometry, and significantly different from Prof. Yang's dimensions (when taking into consideration the cone angle and the distance to the vertex of the cone). The big and the small diameters are same as NASA's, the length is closest to Yang's.(NASA has the following internal copper surface dimensions.Large OD : 11.00 " (0.2794m), Small OD: 6.25" (0.1588 m) & Length : 9.00 " (0.2286m) )rfmwguy Dimensionsaxial length = 0.251714 meters = 9.91 inchesbig diameter = 0.279654 meters = 11.01 inches [same as NASA]small diameter = 0.15875 meters = 6.25 inches [same as NASA]givesr1= 0.339905 metersr2=0.598776 metershalf cone angle = 13.5045 degreesSee the dimensions of the other EM Drives here: http://emdrive.wiki/Experimental_Results