Author Topic: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats  (Read 869928 times)

Offline sanman

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1140 on: 08/28/2017 08:59 pm »

It's nice, but remember, all that would need to be unfolding inside a pressure vessel.

Maybe inside a cave or lava tube that had been sealed and pressurized?
« Last Edit: 08/28/2017 09:00 pm by sanman »

Offline lamontagne

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1141 on: 08/28/2017 09:14 pm »
Some company called Tenfold Engineering makes these building structures which unfold:



Could this be a way to build living quarters on Mars? I wonder if their technology resulted as a spin-off from space hab research?

I would've preferred Thunderbirds theme music, btw.
More likely research into campers for happy retirees and expandable containers for disaster relief.
The problem for long term habitation is not packaging, it's the required mass for long term radiation protection.  And you can't fold that away. 

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1142 on: 09/02/2017 01:17 pm »
From MIT: Digital Construction Platform,

Quote
It can be fitted with a range of different tools, including a foam insulation gun, a welding attachment, a “thermoplastic extruder” that squirts out melted plastic, a glorified squirt gun, and even a simple bucket.

The Verge....


Wow. I have seen the future of cake decorating, and it works.  :)

Radiation shielding keeps being the issue. Somehow you have put about 3m of regolith, or its equivalent, between the settlers and the sky.  :(
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline Paul451

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1143 on: 09/02/2017 04:49 pm »
Radiation shielding keeps being the issue.

As has been pointed out before in this and similar threads, radiation is much, much less of an issue for Mars.

(While I don't accept that it's "not an issue", it is reduced enough, compared to other problems, to be considered an afterthought, not a core consideration in the design.)

Offline biosehnsucht

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1144 on: 09/03/2017 02:39 am »
I agree, assuming you've solved all your other harder problems (like regolith movers that are light enough to ship to Mars yet heavy enough to function, and powering them, and so on), dumping a bunch of regolith on top of your structures should be relatively easy.

Building the actual habitats, or deploying them, or tunneling them, or whatever - these are much harder than simply shielding them with regolith. By the time you get to shielding them, that problem is pretty much solved by all your other efforts.

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1145 on: 09/03/2017 03:01 am »
By the time you get to shielding them, that problem is pretty much solved by all your other efforts.
Water is a good option. It needs to be priority #1 for return fuel anyway. It might not even involve any significant digging. 3 alternatives are pumping hot gas or liquid through a small bore, extraction from atmosphere, or landing on exposed ice.

You could let it freeze to ice, but I like the idea of a roof pool for swimming in.

This pool might also be useful for storing heat and equalising temperature between night and day.
« Last Edit: 09/03/2017 03:04 am by KelvinZero »

Offline Oersted

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1146 on: 09/03/2017 10:58 pm »
Radiation shielding keeps being the issue. Somehow you have put about 3m of regolith, or its equivalent, between the settlers and the sky.  :(

Why the sad smiley? - The technology to do that has existed for at least 2000 years....  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat

Offline rsdavis9

Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1147 on: 09/04/2017 12:36 pm »
I like the idea of mining water with the bore hole and hot water(or other fluid) to melt the buried ice and bring it to the surface. It seems to be the preferred method to mine sulfur and lithium on earth.

Once you have water on the surface it can be used like quick setting cement. And many other uses.
With ELV best efficiency was the paradigm. The new paradigm is reusable, good enough, and commonality of design.
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Offline jpo234

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1148 on: 09/04/2017 02:25 pm »
HP's vision of an Amazing Martian Habitat

You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1149 on: 09/04/2017 06:59 pm »
I created an account to see inside. Interesting. It is like HP is trying to crowdsource ideas over a wide range of applicable areas. Be careful of what ideas you share in this space. Read the terms carefully before sharing any ideas.

Offline DOCinCT

Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1150 on: 09/04/2017 08:07 pm »
Radiation shielding keeps being the issue. Somehow you have put about 3m of regolith, or its equivalent, between the settlers and the sky.  :(

Why the sad smiley? - The technology to do that has existed for at least 2000 years....  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat
Use of caves for shelter likely goes back 1 million years.

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1151 on: 09/05/2017 12:24 am »
I created an account to see inside. Interesting. It is like HP is trying to crowdsource ideas over a wide range of applicable areas. Be careful of what ideas you share in this space. Read the terms carefully before sharing any ideas.
Unless you are me, and think the chances of monetising any of the crap you come up with is nil.

Personally I just throw it around like an angry monkey  :)

I like the idea of mining water with the bore hole and hot water(or other fluid) to melt the buried ice and bring it to the surface. It seems to be the preferred method to mine sulfur and lithium on earth.

Once you have water on the surface it can be used like quick setting cement. And many other uses.


Interesting! I hadn't heard of that. Searched and found this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frasch_process
« Last Edit: 09/05/2017 09:32 am by KelvinZero »

Offline JamesH65

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1152 on: 09/05/2017 11:50 am »
Radiation shielding keeps being the issue. Somehow you have put about 3m of regolith, or its equivalent, between the settlers and the sky.  :(

Why the sad smiley? - The technology to do that has existed for at least 2000 years....  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat
Use of caves for shelter likely goes back 1 million years.

545M years or thereabouts; caves and crevices have been used for shelter since the evolution of the eye at or around the Cambrian explosion.

Offline Oersted

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1153 on: 09/09/2017 08:51 pm »
Radiation shielding keeps being the issue. Somehow you have put about 3m of regolith, or its equivalent, between the settlers and the sky.  :(

Why the sad smiley? - The technology to do that has existed for at least 2000 years....  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat
Use of caves for shelter likely goes back 1 million years.


I was referring to building your own tunnels, not using caves formed by nature. There is quite a long discussion in this thread about excavating tunnels on Mars vs. using lava tubes. I don't believe so much in the latter...

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1154 on: 09/10/2017 06:02 am »
I was referring to building your own tunnels, not using caves formed by nature. There is quite a long discussion in this thread about excavating tunnels on Mars vs. using lava tubes. I don't believe so much in the latter...

I mostly agree. There may come a day when mega cities are built in many locations on Mars. Lava tubes may be the best option then. But that is a long time off.

Offline docmordrid

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1155 on: 09/10/2017 08:38 am »
1) find cliff face, mountainside, big plateau rock etc.

2) dig basic tunnels using Boring Co. TBM's.

3) do the internal contouring of chambers using Mars-adapted roadheaders. See the opal miner "cave  homes" in  Coober Pedy, Australia.

4) seal walls, add airlocks, ECLSS etc.

5) move in.
« Last Edit: 09/10/2017 08:41 am by docmordrid »
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Offline Ludus

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1156 on: 09/10/2017 02:55 pm »
1) find cliff face, mountainside, big plateau rock etc.

2) dig basic tunnels using Boring Co. TBM's.

3) do the internal contouring of chambers using Mars-adapted roadheaders. See the opal miner "cave  homes" in  Coober Pedy, Australia.

4) seal walls, add airlocks, ECLSS etc.

5) move in.

I don't know if the perfect location exists, but some glaciers may provide hundreds of meters of ice up against a rock face like you're suggesting. In that case ice mining excavates a large volume between the rock face which could be terraced and bored for the city and the ice face which would along with a roof contain atmosphere. Aerogel insulation of the ice face (aerogels made with local silica and CO2) allows a warm environment with a lake at the bottom level and other water features. Aerogels make for interesting lighting effects with light piped in from above or leds. The ice face might look a lot like a distant sky above a sea from the terraced cliff city, a bit like the Ligurian coast of Italy but larger and with more architectural variety.

I think much of the weight of the roof spanning the rock face and the ice face in one third gravity would be supported by the air pressure it contains.

This makes for a terraced cliff side city with a view of a spacious outdoor like volume created as a side effect of ice mining that would happen anyway.
« Last Edit: 09/10/2017 03:02 pm by Ludus »

Offline Oersted

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1157 on: 10/12/2017 07:46 pm »
From Gwynne Shotwell Q&A:

(This is not verbatim, but from notes by Reddit-user "Sticklefront": https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/75ufq9/interesting_items_from_gwynne_shotwells_talk_at/)

"Will SpaceX work with other companies regarding infrastructure on the surface of Mars?

SpaceX is focused on the transportation part of the Mars problem, but people need somewhere to go once they arrive. I don't think it's an accident that Elon started the Boring Company, tunnels will be very important in the first steps of living on Mars, before we build domes and terraform. We want other companies to start thinking about it and working on it, but we'll do it if we have to. I think the BFR might be ready before these other components of actually living on Mars."

Offline aero

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1158 on: 10/12/2017 08:20 pm »
1) find cliff face, mountainside, big plateau rock etc.

2) dig basic tunnels using Boring Co. TBM's.

3) do the internal contouring of chambers using Mars-adapted roadheaders. See the opal miner "cave  homes" in  Coober Pedy, Australia.

4) seal walls, add airlocks, ECLSS etc.

5) move in.

I don't know if the perfect location exists, but some glaciers may provide hundreds of meters of ice up against a rock face like you're suggesting. In that case ice mining excavates a large volume between the rock face which could be terraced and bored for the city and the ice face which would along with a roof contain atmosphere. Aerogel insulation of the ice face (aerogels made with local silica and CO2) allows a warm environment with a lake at the bottom level and other water features. Aerogels make for interesting lighting effects with light piped in from above or leds. The ice face might look a lot like a distant sky above a sea from the terraced cliff city, a bit like the Ligurian coast of Italy but larger and with more architectural variety.

I think much of the weight of the roof spanning the rock face and the ice face in one third gravity would be supported by the air pressure it contains.

This makes for a terraced cliff side city with a view of a spacious outdoor like volume created as a side effect of ice mining that would happen anyway.

There exists, somewhere here on NSF a detailed discussion of greenhouses and domes on Mars thread. The take away from my perspective is the lack of consideration of the massive air pressure that Mars sited structures must contain. Air pressure on Mars is effectively zero relative to standard sea level pressure here on Earth. That means the structure must restrain 14 lbs/sq-in. That converts to  one ton per sq-ft or 20+ tons per square meter. Twenty tons is the mass of a one meter square column of water 20 meters tall on Earth, on Mars where gravity is only about 38 percent of earth, the column would need to be over 52 meters tall.

The habitats on mars must be very, very deep under the surface to avoid blowout from the internal air pressure.
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Offline envy887

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1159 on: 10/12/2017 08:27 pm »
There exists, somewhere here on NSF a detailed discussion of greenhouses and domes on Mars thread. The take away from my perspective is the lack of consideration of the massive air pressure that Mars sited structures must contain. Air pressure on Mars is effectively zero relative to standard sea level pressure here on Earth. That means the structure must restrain 14 lbs/sq-in. That converts to  one ton per sq-ft or 20+ tons per square meter. Twenty tons is the mass of a one meter square column of water 20 meters tall on Earth, on Mars where gravity is only about 38 percent of earth, the column would need to be over 52 meters tall.

The habitats on mars must be very, very deep under the surface to avoid blowout from the internal air pressure.

1 atm is 10 tonnes per square meter. Skin tension in the vessel membrane, or internal tension elements, can take the pressure. The former works fine up to about 10-15 meters diameter, and the latter can make much larger structures.


 

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