I sure hope he gets some maritime salvage lawyers on this. They remain property of the U.S. government, and unless he negotiates ahead of time, the Federal Marshals will meet the boat at the pier and immediately impound the artifacts.
1-That is really pessimistic of you, 2-beyond the point of reasonableness. 3-Federal Marshals aren't stormtroopers.
Quote from: LegendCJS on 03/28/2012 09:07 pm1-That is really pessimistic of you, 2-beyond the point of reasonableness. 3-Federal Marshals aren't stormtroopers.1-Thank you!2-Nope. I suggest you google around a little bit about the salvage of sunken U.S. Navy aircraft and what has happened when people have attempted to raise them. The Navy has stepped in and seized the property and refused to reimburse the salvage costs. (Use the U.S. Naval Aviation Museum in your search attempts.) Also, you might look up the recent case of the Spanish galleon where the gold was all recently returned to Spain, after about 500 years of being on the bottom of the ocean. The U.S. government upheld Spain's right of ownership.3-They don't have to be stormtroopers in order to enforce the law. All they need to do is show up with a warrant.
I assume NASA wouldn't mind locating one of these engines in a space musuem within a few hundred miles of Bezo's house.
Have there been any other large engines recovered from the ocean floor after this many years? Does that fact that they are made from rare metals give them a better chance of surviving intact than a steel hulled ship like the Titanic?
My guess is they already have some sort of visual confirmation (other than sonar) that the engines are in decent shape. He wouldn't be making press releases and spending millions of dollars to raise F-1 parts. I always figured that falling from that height would have destroyed everything beyond recognition.
Bezos has addressed ownership:Though they've been on the ocean floor for a long time, the engines remain the property of NASA. If we are able to recover one of these F-1 engines that started mankind on its first journey to another heavenly body, I imagine that NASA would decide to make it available to the Smithsonian for all to see. If we're able to raise more than one engine, I've asked NASA if they would consider making it available to the excellent Museum of Flight here in Seattle. (For clarity, I'll point out that no public funding will be used to attempt to raise the engines, as it's being undertaken privately.)Amazon.com founder finds Apollo 11 moon rocket engines on ocean floorhttp://www.collectspace.com/news/news-032812a.html
By now from being on the bottom for so long it might be partly collapsed.
Quote from: MarkD on 03/29/2012 03:27 pmBy now from being on the bottom for so long it might be partly collapsed. I imagine the high velocity impact with the ocean may have contributed to that...
Quote from: Blackstar on 03/29/2012 03:47 pmQuote from: MarkD on 03/29/2012 03:27 pmBy now from being on the bottom for so long it might be partly collapsed. I imagine the high velocity impact with the ocean may have contributed to that...One poster over on NASAWatch suggested that the impact may have destroyed the stage entirely but that the engines and possibly the thrust structure, protected by the bulk of the tanks and hull (think of it as the world's biggest and most expensive 'crumple zone' protection), would have survived largely intact.
Quote from: collectSPACE on 03/28/2012 09:02 pmBezos has addressed ownership:Though they've been on the ocean floor for a long time, the engines remain the property of NASA. If we are able to recover one of these F-1 engines that started mankind on its first journey to another heavenly body, I imagine that NASA would decide to make it available to the Smithsonian for all to see. If we're able to raise more than one engine, I've asked NASA if they would consider making it available to the excellent Museum of Flight here in Seattle. (For clarity, I'll point out that no public funding will be used to attempt to raise the engines, as it's being undertaken privately.)Amazon.com founder finds Apollo 11 moon rocket engines on ocean floorhttp://www.collectspace.com/news/news-032812a.htmlThanks Robert for the clarification.Very good of Mr. Bezos for doing this.
Make a pre-agreement with NASA if he gets say 5 engines he can keep one. Its a fair deal.
As an aside, are there any F1 engines that have been test fired in museums anywhere, or are there any 100% complete F1 engines anywhere?
Quote from: Paul Adams on 03/29/2012 06:10 pmAs an aside, are there any F1 engines that have been test fired in museums anywhere, or are there any 100% complete F1 engines anywhere?1) Probably. 2) Almost surely. That was one of the seriously considered options for the first stage of SLS.
Quote from: Paul Adams on 03/29/2012 06:10 pmAs an aside, are there any F1 engines that have been test fired in museums anywhere, or are there any 100% complete F1 engines anywhere?There was a two-part series in Spaceflight magazine about a year ago that dealt with the remaining F-1s. The author did some great work tracking down the locations of all the remaining F-1s. I think to answer your question, there are many test-fired F-1s in museums, and there are probably quite a few complete F-1s, although lacking the external insulation. I believe (going from memory here) that there were something like 30 complete engines left over at the end of the Apollo program, and some of them went straight into preserved storage in case the program was re-started.
Ditto: Interesting, I would like to see one that has actually be fired,
I think it would be awesome to see an F-1, one of the non flown engines that is the real thing, be fired up for one test to show people just how powerful they are. Film and photos don't do justice to the actual experience of feeling it. I've heard of how powerful they are, but seeing one tested face to face would be cool.
What about the S-IC itself being recovered? By now from being on the bottom for so long it might be partly collapsed.
What about the S-IC interstage? It could be found intact and recovered.
I do wonder though how they know they are Apollo 11's and not another stage.
Quote from: OV-106 on 03/29/2012 11:27 pmI do wonder though how they know they are Apollo 11's and not another stage. I can't see how they could know that unless they had recovered some items from the debris field that had a serial number on it that they had cross-verified with NASA's records.
RELEASE: 12-102NASA ADMINISTRATOR SUPPORTS APOLLO ENGINE RECOVERY...
Thinking about this, in order to do a recovery they are probably going to have to cut the engines off of the bottom debris of the stage so that they can raise one or more of them. That is going to be difficult at that depth. Possible, but not necessarily an easy job.
Quote from: Blackstar on 04/13/2012 05:30 pmThinking about this, in order to do a recovery they are probably going to have to cut the engines off of the bottom debris of the stage so that they can raise one or more of them. That is going to be difficult at that depth. Possible, but not necessarily an easy job.Or raise the entire piece... It would be a shame if they deface the remains to get a single trinket off of it.Still not an easy job. A better thing if you ask me, is locate them, declare the site a heritage site and have people go down in mini subs to visit them.
Or raise the entire piece... It would be a shame if they deface the remains to get a single trinket off of it.
Quote from: kevin-rf on 04/13/2012 05:46 pmOr raise the entire piece... It would be a shame if they deface the remains to get a single trinket off of it.What is the depth?What is the mass of the five engines plus S-IC?
Checked the web site listed no updates......any news on this?
Quote from: Blackstar on 04/13/2012 07:51 pmQuote from: kevin-rf on 04/13/2012 05:46 pmOr raise the entire piece... It would be a shame if they deface the remains to get a single trinket off of it.What is the depth?What is the mass of the five engines plus S-IC?http://www.bezosexpeditions.com/engine-recovery.htmlEstimated depth is 14,000 feet. For reference, the Titanic is at around 13,000 feet, and the submarine target of the Glomar Explorer was 17,000ft down.
Quote from: neilh on 04/13/2012 08:36 pmQuote from: Blackstar on 04/13/2012 07:51 pmQuote from: kevin-rf on 04/13/2012 05:46 pmOr raise the entire piece... It would be a shame if they deface the remains to get a single trinket off of it.What is the depth?What is the mass of the five engines plus S-IC?http://www.bezosexpeditions.com/engine-recovery.htmlEstimated depth is 14,000 feet. For reference, the Titanic is at around 13,000 feet, and the submarine target of the Glomar Explorer was 17,000ft down. That's serious recovery at that depth. Its hard to imagine it'd be viable without highly expensive bespoke equipment like the GE. I wonder if Bezos has bitten off more than he can chew.
Quote from: Mogster on 08/13/2012 08:43 pmQuote from: neilh on 04/13/2012 08:36 pmQuote from: Blackstar on 04/13/2012 07:51 pmQuote from: kevin-rf on 04/13/2012 05:46 pmOr raise the entire piece... It would be a shame if they deface the remains to get a single trinket off of it.What is the depth?What is the mass of the five engines plus S-IC?http://www.bezosexpeditions.com/engine-recovery.htmlEstimated depth is 14,000 feet. For reference, the Titanic is at around 13,000 feet, and the submarine target of the Glomar Explorer was 17,000ft down. That's serious recovery at that depth. Its hard to imagine it'd be viable without highly expensive bespoke equipment like the GE. I wonder if Bezos has bitten off more than he can chew. GE is for rent you realize, currently between assignments:http://www.deepwater.com/
I don't think the Glomar Explorer is capable of deep water recovery anymore. It's a drilling exploration vessel and the lifting equipment was removed decades ago.
Quote from: Blackstar on 08/14/2012 03:24 pmI don't think the Glomar Explorer is capable of deep water recovery anymore. It's a drilling exploration vessel and the lifting equipment was removed decades ago.its prob chopped up by now and heading into a blast furnace along with the stealth ship.
Quote from: Prober on 08/14/2012 05:48 pmQuote from: Blackstar on 08/14/2012 03:24 pmI don't think the Glomar Explorer is capable of deep water recovery anymore. It's a drilling exploration vessel and the lifting equipment was removed decades ago.its prob chopped up by now and heading into a blast furnace along with the stealth ship.The vessel that holds the stealth ship is the HMB-1 (Hughes Mining Barge 1). The Glomar Explorer, which actually would have lifted the Soviet sub, was on lease to Marathon Oil to drill in Indonesia through March of 2012, according to the Wikipedia page.
Quote from: rolfkap on 08/14/2012 06:05 pmQuote from: Prober on 08/14/2012 05:48 pmQuote from: Blackstar on 08/14/2012 03:24 pmI don't think the Glomar Explorer is capable of deep water recovery anymore. It's a drilling exploration vessel and the lifting equipment was removed decades ago.its prob chopped up by now and heading into a blast furnace along with the stealth ship.The vessel that holds the stealth ship is the HMB-1 (Hughes Mining Barge 1). The Glomar Explorer, which actually would have lifted the Soviet sub, was on lease to Marathon Oil to drill in Indonesia through March of 2012, according to the Wikipedia page.you could be right, read some conflicting government info. Will check out when time is available.
Another month down the line, and nothing, at least a sign of life would be nice, other then a new kindle fire
And when is the best time to do this kind of retrieval? Probably not hurricane season (i.e. now). Probably the summer. So maybe not until next summer at the earliest.
Hurricane season in the Atlantic begins June 1st and ends November 30th.
Hurricane season would not stop this effort. A hurricane would.
I thought they all followed the same trajectory initially.
Quote from: TAFFONE on 09/23/2012 12:53 pmI thought they all followed the same trajectory initially.To amplify on RyanCrierie's point about stage markings, let me point out that the trajectories varied somewhat, and predicted S-IC mpact points were many kilometers apart (recall that one minute of longitude is a nautical mile or about 1852 meters in linear terms; at 30 degrees latitude, a minute of longitude is about 1600 meters).
... the recent case of the Spanish galleon where the gold was all recently returned to Spain, after about 500 years of being on the bottom of the ocean. The U.S. government upheld Spain's right of ownership.
...there were something like 30 complete engines left over at the end of the Apollo program, and some of them went straight into preserved storage in case the program was re-started.
As to OV-106, that's a good question.
And... he's got a couple:http://www.bezosexpeditions.com/updates.html
Kevin-rf predicted "spring"So he wins!
Quote from: Blackstar on 03/20/2013 04:07 pmKevin-rf predicted "spring"So he wins!So do I get one of the F-1's?
So, my guess is that the Smithsonian gets one and the other one goes someplace else, probably near where he lives. But it will have to be in a museum, not in his living room.
NASA does retain ownership of any artifacts recovered and would likely offer one of the Saturn V F-1 engines to the Smithsonian Institution’s National Air and Space Museum in Washington under long-standing arrangements with the institution as the holder of the national collection of aerospace artifacts.“If the Smithsonian declines or if a second engine is recovered, we will work to ensure an engine or other artifacts are available for display at the Museum of Flight in Seattle, as Jeff requested in his correspondence with my office.
...because everyone in the non-spaceflight media and a few in the spaceflight media is instantly assuming that they are all from Apollo 11...
Awesome. I wonder if there is a map made of the area showing all the pieces of the S-IC stage. The stage as evident from the photos didn't land intact,but shattered on impact.
Quote from: OV135 on 03/21/2013 12:44 pmAwesome. I wonder if there is a map made of the area showing all the pieces of the S-IC stage. The stage as evident from the photos didn't land intact,but shattered on impact.One of the links on this said the stages impacted at 5,000 MPH.I assume a battleship or locomotive would shred at that sort of impact, never mind something as fragile as a rocket stage.cheers, Martin
Quote from: MP99 on 03/21/2013 02:29 pmQuote from: OV135 on 03/21/2013 12:44 pmAwesome. I wonder if there is a map made of the area showing all the pieces of the S-IC stage. The stage as evident from the photos didn't land intact,but shattered on impact.One of the links on this said the stages impacted at 5,000 MPH.I assume a battleship or locomotive would shred at that sort of impact, never mind something as fragile as a rocket stage.cheers, MartinThat kind of velocity is well over hypersonic speed. It's is frankly impossible for a non-aerodynamic expended stage in free-fall to reach that kind of terminal velocity. More likely someone missed a decimal and/or mis-converted between kph and mph when writing the article.
Quote from: MP99 on 03/21/2013 02:29 pmOne of the links on this said the stages impacted at 5,000 MPH.I assume a battleship or locomotive would shred at that sort of impact, never mind something as fragile as a rocket stage.cheers, MartinThat kind of velocity is well over hypersonic speed. It's is frankly impossible for a non-aerodynamic expended stage in free-fall to reach that kind of terminal velocity. More likely someone missed a decimal and/or mis-converted between kph and mph when writing the article.
One of the links on this said the stages impacted at 5,000 MPH.I assume a battleship or locomotive would shred at that sort of impact, never mind something as fragile as a rocket stage.cheers, Martin
S-IC terminal velocity would be about 130 m/s (290 mph) with Cd = 1.5. Less if it was tumbling.
We want the hardware to tell its true story, including its 5,000 mile per hour re-entry and subsequent impact with the ocean surface.
Awesome. I wonder if there is a map made of the area showing all the pieces of the S-IC stage. The stage as evident from the photos didn't land intact,but shattered on impact. If you ask me, I hope another expedition is made to recover more of the S-IC booster and if done give the pieces to KSC to add to their Apollo/Saturn exhibit center. It would be pretty cool to see the S-IC at KSC side by side with the recovered debris of a flown vehicle. I honestly think KSC should get one of the recovered pieces to put with the Saturn V exhibit.
From what I've read, most of the radar signatures seem to indicate that the S-ICs tended to impact somewhat aft-first. And I recall talking to an old KSC guy several years ago who said that they re-entered the same way and little tumbling was seen once in the lower atmosphere.
Saw the retrieval ship just leave Port Canaveral
He did it !! http://news.yahoo.com/amazon-ceo-recovers-apollo-engines-185102049.html
Quote from: Jim on 03/21/2013 09:28 pmSaw the retrieval ship just leave Port CanaveralConfirmed, Seabed Worker is headed out to sea on practically the same track she came in on.Do you think they are going out to the same location to recover more hardware?INTEGRATOR
Quote from: Integrator on 03/22/2013 12:04 amQuote from: Jim on 03/21/2013 09:28 pmSaw the retrieval ship just leave Port CanaveralConfirmed, Seabed Worker is headed out to sea on practically the same track she came in on.Do you think they are going out to the same location to recover more hardware?INTEGRATORIsn't there a ship tracking site where you can track ships based upon their GPS transponders? Could check that.
Quote from: OV135 on 03/21/2013 12:44 pmAwesome. I wonder if there is a map made of the area showing all the pieces of the S-IC stage. The stage as evident from the photos didn't land intact,but shattered on impact.
Quote from: catdlr on 03/21/2013 07:48 pmQuote from: OV135 on 03/21/2013 12:44 pmAwesome. I wonder if there is a map made of the area showing all the pieces of the S-IC stage. The stage as evident from the photos didn't land intact,but shattered on impact. Here are the S-1C coordinates on Google Earth, from when these were posted several years ago in another thread.
Quote from: Blackstar on 03/22/2013 01:10 amQuote from: Integrator on 03/22/2013 12:04 amQuote from: Jim on 03/21/2013 09:28 pmSaw the retrieval ship just leave Port CanaveralConfirmed, Seabed Worker is headed out to sea on practically the same track she came in on.Do you think they are going out to the same location to recover more hardware?INTEGRATORIsn't there a ship tracking site where you can track ships based upon their GPS transponders? Could check that.try here: Click on last know position link to show Google Map.http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/shipdetails.aspx?MMSI=259889000
Public invited to see Amazon CEO's moon engines in Kansashttp://www.collectspace.com/news/news-051413b.htmlThe massive moon rocket engines that Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos salvaged from the ocean floor are now undergoing conversation in Kansas and the public is invited to come see.The Kansas Cosmosphere and Space Center will open its new SpaceWorks Observation Gallery on Friday, May 24, where visitors can get a clear view of the conservators as they preserve the parts for two mammoth Apollo Saturn V F-1 rocket engines that powered Americans to the moon. Some of the recovered engine artifacts at the Hutchinson museum weigh as much as 2,000 pounds (907 kilograms), while others are as small as a dime."These artifacts give us a magnificent window into history," Kansas Cosmosphere president Jim Remar said. "The F-1 remains the most powerful American liquid-fueled rocket engine ever developed. Studying these [salvaged] engines can provide us a tremendous amount of information about the design of future rockets and spacecraft."
Going to go out on a limb here and say that the bolded above should have "conservation" as I don't think talking to the parts is going to achieve a whole lot
Quote from: RanulfC on 05/16/2013 02:04 pmGoing to go out on a limb here and say that the bolded above should have "conservation" as I don't think talking to the parts is going to achieve a whole lot Hah! Indeed — but just imagine if those engine parts could talk, the stories they could tell! (Corrected in original citation). Thanks.
Have they identified from which Saturn V the F-1 engines are from?
I would argue that they where retrieved from a single area (Debris feild) and thus came from a single vehicle. The vehicles did not all come down in the same place.But I could easily be proved wrong.
Quote from: kevin-rf on 05/21/2013 01:37 pmI would argue that they where retrieved from a single area (Debris feild) and thus came from a single vehicle. The vehicles did not all come down in the same place.But I could easily be proved wrong.Can't find the map now... but someone made a map of all the reentry points for various Apollo first stages.. Several of them are close enough that the debris fields surely overlap.
Apollo moon rocket engines finally fill a place of honor at Museum of Flight https://www.geekwire.com/2017/apollo-moon-engines-museum-flight/ via @GeekWire
Live in the new APOLLO exhibit! @JeffBezos chats with kids about his inspirations and passions! #TMOFAPOLLO
Live in the new APOLLO exhibit! @JeffBezos chats with kids about his inspirations and passions!