Author Topic: Chinese Research into Reusability  (Read 24575 times)

Offline sanman

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Chinese Research into Reusability
« on: 03/17/2017 06:46 am »
Here's an article about research in China toward developing recoverable/reusable rocket stages to lower the cost of space launch:

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/2079822/china-developing-system-recover-reuse-parts-space

Quote
SpaceX has performed a series of successful vertical landings which demonstrate the technology’s feasibility, but Chinese researchers have rejected the approach, the article said.
Deng wrote that the vertical landing system needed carrying extra fuel for landing, which meant rockets could only carry smaller payloads into space.
...
The Chinese launch vehicle academy researchers have said on their website that the parachute-airbag system will be assisted by multiple censors and a sophisticated flight control system to guide the descent. The final goal was to hit a small recovery zone as precisely as the vertical landing technology can achieve.

So it seems that in the comparison of fuel+legs against parachutes+airbags, that the latter is seen as a better option, at least at this juncture.

How soon could we see stuff flying?
« Last Edit: 03/17/2017 11:35 pm by sanman »

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #1 on: 03/17/2017 06:59 am »
Quote
The Chinese launch vehicle academy researchers have said on their website that the parachute-airbag system will be assisted by multiple censors

Those Chinese sure are serious about their censorship!

Offline Johnnyhinbos

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #2 on: 03/17/2017 09:44 am »
Quote
The Chinese launch vehicle academy researchers have said on their website that the parachute-airbag system will be assisted by multiple censors

Those Chinese sure are serious about their censorship!
I think it's "Censor Ship"...
John Hanzl. Author, action / adventure www.johnhanzl.com

Offline MikeAtkinson

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #3 on: 03/17/2017 11:20 am »
So it seems that in the comparison of fuel+legs against parachutes+airbags, that the latter is seen as a better option, at least at this juncture.

Neither parachutes or airbags scale well.

Not too bad a solution for a smallsat launcher, but starts to get iffy at EELV size (not sure if Vulcan could return whole stage by parachute even if they wanted to). Parachutes and airbags are completely impractical at New Glen let alone ITS size.

Also airbags and parachutes add quite a bit off mass, probably not as much mass as the extra fuel for a powered landing, but replacing cheap fuel with expensive hardware and extra refurbishment may end up more expensive in the end.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #4 on: 03/17/2017 04:10 pm »
I think this quote is more telling:

Quote
Deng Xinyu, a researcher on the Chinese rocket recovery programme, said that vertical landing involved many challenges and was extremely difficult to achieve.

Is the real reason they rejected it because they don't think they can do it?

Offline notsorandom

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #5 on: 03/17/2017 07:03 pm »
So it seems that in the comparison of fuel+legs against parachutes+airbags, that the latter is seen as a better option, at least at this juncture.

Neither parachutes or airbags scale well.

Not too bad a solution for a smallsat launcher, but starts to get iffy at EELV size (not sure if Vulcan could return whole stage by parachute even if they wanted to). Parachutes and airbags are completely impractical at New Glen let alone ITS size.

Also airbags and parachutes add quite a bit off mass, probably not as much mass as the extra fuel for a powered landing, but replacing cheap fuel with expensive hardware and extra refurbishment may end up more expensive in the end.
The STS SRB's were recovered via parachute and had a dry mass of around 90 metric tons. They were really strong, being a lot sturdier than a liquid stage. Air bags might be pretty tricky for something that big though.

Offline su27k

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #6 on: 03/18/2017 01:48 am »
So it seems that in the comparison of fuel+legs against parachutes+airbags, that the latter is seen as a better option, at least at this juncture.

Neither parachutes or airbags scale well.

Not too bad a solution for a smallsat launcher, but starts to get iffy at EELV size (not sure if Vulcan could return whole stage by parachute even if they wanted to). Parachutes and airbags are completely impractical at New Glen let alone ITS size.

Also airbags and parachutes add quite a bit off mass, probably not as much mass as the extra fuel for a powered landing, but replacing cheap fuel with expensive hardware and extra refurbishment may end up more expensive in the end.

Didn't Kistler plan to use parachutes and airbags? K-1 is a bit small for EELV but not a smallsat launcher either. I suspect this choice may have something to do with the engine arrangement on the new Chinese LVs, they don't have a lot of engines, so it would be difficult for them to do retro-propulsion landing without some dedicated landing engines.

Offline Prettz

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #7 on: 03/18/2017 03:46 pm »
So it seems that in the comparison of fuel+legs against parachutes+airbags, that the latter is seen as a better option, at least at this juncture.

Neither parachutes or airbags scale well.

Not too bad a solution for a smallsat launcher, but starts to get iffy at EELV size (not sure if Vulcan could return whole stage by parachute even if they wanted to). Parachutes and airbags are completely impractical at New Glen let alone ITS size.

Also airbags and parachutes add quite a bit off mass, probably not as much mass as the extra fuel for a powered landing, but replacing cheap fuel with expensive hardware and extra refurbishment may end up more expensive in the end.
From the animation it looks like they only want to use this for strap-on boosters.

Offline savuporo

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #8 on: 03/18/2017 08:03 pm »
Previous reports about reusable launcher research in China have cited rocket debris falling over populated areas as the main driver of this.

Steerable semi autonomous parafoils would make quite a bit of sense for this IMHO. Especially because the tech is very much dual use. Think JPADS-30K equivalent systems
« Last Edit: 03/18/2017 08:21 pm by savuporo »
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Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #9 on: 03/18/2017 08:47 pm »
Surprised they didn't do mid air recovery with helicopter, the boosters a light enough for it.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #10 on: 03/19/2017 06:47 pm »
I think this quote is more telling:

Quote
Deng Xinyu, a researcher on the Chinese rocket recovery programme, said that vertical landing involved many challenges and was extremely difficult to achieve.

Is the real reason they rejected it because they don't think they can do it?

Or not worth doing at this stage.  Remember the economic viability of reusability has yet to be demonstrated.
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #11 on: 03/19/2017 06:55 pm »
I think this quote is more telling:

Quote
Deng Xinyu, a researcher on the Chinese rocket recovery programme, said that vertical landing involved many challenges and was extremely difficult to achieve.

Is the real reason they rejected it because they don't think they can do it?

Or not worth doing at this stage.  Remember the economic viability of reusability has yet to be demonstrated.

The ability to successfully recover a stage using parachutes and landing a stage on it's side has not been proven either, yet they appear to be betting their program on that assumption.

Landing a stage vertically under power has been proven, both on land and at sea.  By more than one U.S. company.  Is it difficult?  Of course.  Many things in life are, yet humanity still does them.

There is something going on in the Chinese launch vehicle academy that we don't yet understand with regards to their goals for reusability, and the resources they want to devote to achieving that.  And they may have internal conflicts that are not yet resolved, which is why we see this pooh-poohing of what SpaceX has done.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #12 on: 03/19/2017 07:30 pm »
I think this quote is more telling:

Quote
Deng Xinyu, a researcher on the Chinese rocket recovery programme, said that vertical landing involved many challenges and was extremely difficult to achieve.

Is the real reason they rejected it because they don't think they can do it?

Or not worth doing at this stage.  Remember the economic viability of reusability has yet to be demonstrated.

That's kind of like saying "the ability of an aircraft carrrier to win a war has yet to be demonstrated, so we're going to keep sinking all our money into battleships" in 1940.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #13 on: 03/20/2017 12:02 am »
I think this quote is more telling:

Quote
Deng Xinyu, a researcher on the Chinese rocket recovery programme, said that vertical landing involved many challenges and was extremely difficult to achieve.

Is the real reason they rejected it because they don't think they can do it?

Or not worth doing at this stage.  Remember the economic viability of reusability has yet to be demonstrated.

That's kind of like saying "the ability of an aircraft carrrier to win a war has yet to be demonstrated, so we're going to keep sinking all our money into battleships" in 1940.

What you are proposing is like saying we should stop all investment in battleships in 1902 because there is some interesting work happening in heavier than air flight in a few places.

Note that there is nothing that says that China is not interested in further work this field.They have merely decided that one approach is not viable.   




Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline tonya

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #14 on: 03/20/2017 12:53 am »
Some similarity to what might have been Energia's approach to booster recovery.

http://www.buran-energia.com/energia/energia-consti-1eretage.php

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #15 on: 03/20/2017 03:40 am »
I think this quote is more telling:

Quote
Deng Xinyu, a researcher on the Chinese rocket recovery programme, said that vertical landing involved many challenges and was extremely difficult to achieve.

Is the real reason they rejected it because they don't think they can do it?

Or not worth doing at this stage.  Remember the economic viability of reusability has yet to be demonstrated.

That's kind of like saying "the ability of an aircraft carrrier to win a war has yet to be demonstrated, so we're going to keep sinking all our money into battleships" in 1940.

What you are proposing is like saying we should stop all investment in battleships in 1902 because there is some interesting work happening in heavier than air flight in a few places.

Note that there is nothing that says that China is not interested in further work this field.They have merely decided that one approach is not viable.

In 1902, it would be 40 years before aircraft carriers were demonstrated to win wars.  In 1940, that would be demonstrated within 5 years.

So, you think it's 1902 with respect to reusable rockets and I think it's 1940.  In other words, if reusable rockets demonstrate economic viability within 5 years, I'm right.  If they demonstrate economic viability only after 40 more years, you're right.

Place your bets now.  SpaceX, Blue Origin, ULA, Arianespace, Russia, and China have placed theirs.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #16 on: 03/20/2017 04:17 am »
I think this quote is more telling:

Quote
Deng Xinyu, a researcher on the Chinese rocket recovery programme, said that vertical landing involved many challenges and was extremely difficult to achieve.

Is the real reason they rejected it because they don't think they can do it?

Or not worth doing at this stage.  Remember the economic viability of reusability has yet to be demonstrated.

That's kind of like saying "the ability of an aircraft carrrier to win a war has yet to be demonstrated, so we're going to keep sinking all our money into battleships" in 1940.

What you are proposing is like saying we should stop all investment in battleships in 1902 because there is some interesting work happening in heavier than air flight in a few places.

Note that there is nothing that says that China is not interested in further work this field.They have merely decided that one approach is not viable.

In 1902, it would be 40 years before aircraft carriers were demonstrated to win wars.  In 1940, that would be demonstrated within 5 years.

So, you think it's 1902 with respect to reusable rockets and I think it's 1940.  In other words, if reusable rockets demonstrate economic viability within 5 years, I'm right.  If they demonstrate economic viability only after 40 more years, you're right.

Place your bets now.  SpaceX, Blue Origin, ULA, Arianespace, Russia, and China have placed theirs.

Still a bad analogy. Barring the STS, nobody has demonstrated technical reusability of an orbital launch system.  Nobody has yet demonstrated economic viability of such systems. It will take several years for this to happen, at best.  Maybe longer.  In 1970 many of us thought we were on the verge of reusable rockets too.

In 1940 nobody questioned the importance, indeed centrality, of heavier than air maritime aviation.  In 1902 nobody knew it it was possible (barring man-carrying kites). 

But you are missing the points here, not just making a poor historical analogy.  The points are that 1) the Chinese may be quite justified in giving up one particular approach (not that they can't achieve it) and 2) the case for reusability, is not yet as clearcut as wishful thinking would have it.
« Last Edit: 03/20/2017 04:35 am by Dalhousie »
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline gospacex

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #17 on: 03/20/2017 05:01 am »
SpaceX rocketcams show it rather clearly. 1st stage goes down from near vacuum into atmosphere at a frightening velocity, visually at Mach 5 or more, and at 45 degrees or steeper. How chutes are going to stop this?

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #18 on: 03/20/2017 05:20 am »
The Chinese are doing reusability to lower their domestic launch costs. They not competiting inter nationally, so any saving is a success.

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #19 on: 03/20/2017 06:09 am »
The Chinese are doing reusability to lower their domestic launch costs. They not competiting inter nationally, so any saving is a success.

Ah, but they are still competing internationally, because if they let a U.S. launch company provide much cheaper launch to the U.S. military then China is at a strategic disadvantage.

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #20 on: 03/20/2017 06:22 am »
I think this quote is more telling:

Quote
Deng Xinyu, a researcher on the Chinese rocket recovery programme, said that vertical landing involved many challenges and was extremely difficult to achieve.

Is the real reason they rejected it because they don't think they can do it?

Or not worth doing at this stage.  Remember the economic viability of reusability has yet to be demonstrated.

That's kind of like saying "the ability of an aircraft carrrier to win a war has yet to be demonstrated, so we're going to keep sinking all our money into battleships" in 1940.

What you are proposing is like saying we should stop all investment in battleships in 1902 because there is some interesting work happening in heavier than air flight in a few places.

Note that there is nothing that says that China is not interested in further work this field.They have merely decided that one approach is not viable.

In 1902, it would be 40 years before aircraft carriers were demonstrated to win wars.  In 1940, that would be demonstrated within 5 years.

So, you think it's 1902 with respect to reusable rockets and I think it's 1940.  In other words, if reusable rockets demonstrate economic viability within 5 years, I'm right.  If they demonstrate economic viability only after 40 more years, you're right.

Place your bets now.  SpaceX, Blue Origin, ULA, Arianespace, Russia, and China have placed theirs.

Still a bad analogy.

You haven't provided any evidence or reasoning to support it being a bad analogy.

Barring the STS, nobody has demonstrated technical reusability of an orbital launch system.  Nobody has yet demonstrated economic viability of such systems.

Just like in 1940 nobody had demonstrated winning a war with aircraft carriers.

It will take several years for this to happen, at best.

Even if it takes 5 years from today for SpaceX and/or Blue Origin to do it, if it's going to happen, it's a mistake for China and other launch providers not to be going full speed on reusability at least to the SpaceX level right now.  It takes time to design, build, and test a new launch vehicle and to iron out all the bugs.

China and the rest are already way behind.  The fact that they still aren't embracing it means it will just take them longer to catch up.

Maybe longer.  In 1970 many of us thought we were on the verge of reusable rockets too.

In 1940 nobody questioned the importance, indeed centrality, of heavier than air maritime aviation.

That is not remotely true.  It was fiercely debated within all the world's major navies.  Both the U.S. and Japan had aircraft carriers, but also battleships.  Many still viewed battleships and cruisers as more important.  Huge sums were wasted right up until the war started building battleships and cruisers.  Partway through the war, as it became apparent that aircraft carriers were so much more effective, many ships of other types that were under construction were converted to aircraft carriers, or just scrapped to start from scratch with carriers.

In 1902 nobody knew it it was possible (barring man-carrying kites). 

But you are missing the points here, not just making a poor historical analogy.  The points are that 1) the Chinese may be quite justified in giving up one particular approach (not that they can't achieve it)

That's exactly what the traditionalists said about battleships in the 1930s.

and 2) the case for reusability, is not yet as clearcut as wishful thinking would have it.

Again, we'll see.  If it takes more than 40 years, you're right, it's 1902.  If it takes five or fewer, you're wrong.

Offline savuporo

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #21 on: 03/20/2017 02:15 pm »
The Chinese are doing reusability to lower their domestic launch costs. They not competiting inter nationally, so any saving is a success.
Definitely competing on international market. Small wins so far, but they do.

And again, a significant driver for their investments such as Wenchang launch complex and stated reason for reusability research, which has been going on for a couple years now, is to improve the public image.

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Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #22 on: 03/20/2017 10:48 pm »


Again, we'll see.  If it takes more than 40 years, you're right, it's 1902.  If it takes five or fewer, you're wrong.

In either case you are still wrong.  The value of maritime aviation was demonstrated by 1916.  I would hope that reusability in some form will have been demonstrated by 14 years from now.  Assuming  that progress rates will be comparable.  Which is unlikely. 

But you are still missing the point.  It's not the time scale, it's the readiness of the technology. To date nobody has reused a first stage, unless you want to count the SRBs. 
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #23 on: 03/21/2017 06:21 am »


Again, we'll see.  If it takes more than 40 years, you're right, it's 1902.  If it takes five or fewer, you're wrong.

In either case you are still wrong.  The value of maritime aviation was demonstrated by 1916.  I would hope that reusability in some form will have been demonstrated by 14 years from now.  Assuming  that progress rates will be comparable.  Which is unlikely. 

But you are still missing the point.  It's not the time scale, it's the readiness of the technology. To date nobody has reused a first stage, unless you want to count the SRBs.

You're still not getting it.  I specifically said "demonstrated to win wars" because that's the equivalent of your "demonstrated economic reuse".  Lots related to reuse has been demonstrated already.  Asking that economic reuse be demonstrated by a competitor is like asking that aircraft carriers demonstrate they can win a war by winning a war.  By the time that happens, it's too late.

Anyway, I'm sure you won't get that either, but I'm confident other readers of this thread will understand, so I'm done with the conversation now.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #24 on: 03/30/2017 07:55 am »


Again, we'll see.  If it takes more than 40 years, you're right, it's 1902.  If it takes five or fewer, you're wrong.

In either case you are still wrong.  The value of maritime aviation was demonstrated by 1916.  I would hope that reusability in some form will have been demonstrated by 14 years from now.  Assuming  that progress rates will be comparable.  Which is unlikely. 

But you are still missing the point.  It's not the time scale, it's the readiness of the technology. To date nobody has reused a first stage, unless you want to count the SRBs.

You're still not getting it.  I specifically said "demonstrated to win wars" because that's the equivalent of your "demonstrated economic reuse".  Lots related to reuse has been demonstrated already.  Asking that economic reuse be demonstrated by a competitor is like asking that aircraft carriers demonstrate they can win a war by winning a war.  By the time that happens, it's too late.

Anyway, I'm sure you won't get that either, but I'm confident other readers of this thread will understand, so I'm done with the conversation now.

I get what you are saying and still think you are wrong both analogically and factually.  The failure to understand is your part.
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #25 on: 06/10/2017 03:11 pm »
Quote
Reusable craft are in CASIC's plans
Beijing (XNA) Jun 08, 2017

China Aerospace Science and Industry Corp, one of the nation's major space contractors, said on Tuesday it is developing reusable spacecraft capable of taking off and landing at airports.

Liu Shiquan, deputy general manager of CASIC, told the 2017 Global Space Exploration Conference, which opened on Tuesday in Beijing, that the cutting-edge spacecraft's key technologies and major parts - such as its engine - have passed ground tests and the program is proceeding smoothly.
[...]

http://www.spacedaily.com/m/reports/Reusable_craft_are_in_CASICs_plans_999.html
« Last Edit: 06/10/2017 03:11 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline AncientU

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #26 on: 06/12/2017 12:42 am »
...  I would hope that reusability in some form will have been demonstrated by 14 years from now.  Assuming  that progress rates will be comparable.  Which is unlikely. 

But you are still missing the point.  It's not the time scale, it's the readiness of the technology. To date nobody has reused a first stage, unless you want to count the SRBs.

10 days later... someone did.  Refurbishing the booster cost much less than half that of a new one.

Next week another reused first stage launches; two more are being test fired for FH with others in the queue before year's end.  I'd say the technology is ready.  Do you really think the Chinese believe otherwise?

Your move...where do the goal posts go next?

Repeating this quote... a head shaker for sure.
Quote
I would hope that reusability in some form will have been demonstrated by 14 years from now
« Last Edit: 06/12/2017 12:46 am by AncientU »
"If we shared everything [we are working on] people would think we are insane!"
-- SpaceX friend of mlindner

Offline eeergo

Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #27 on: 07/17/2017 11:09 am »
« Last Edit: 07/17/2017 11:09 am by eeergo »
-DaviD-

Offline SmallKing

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #28 on: 07/17/2017 12:09 pm »
From ChinaSpaceFlight  :o :


https://twitter.com/cnspaceflight/status/886839417096216576
There are two plans so far, parafoil and multi-parachute, both for laning a strap-on booster
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Offline eeergo

Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #29 on: 07/17/2017 02:13 pm »
From ChinaSpaceFlight  :o :


https://twitter.com/cnspaceflight/status/886839417096216576
There are two plans so far, parafoil and multi-parachute, both for laning a strap-on booster

Thank you for the paper! Google-translating I get that the China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology's Institute of Aerospace Systems Engineering and the Beijing Institute of Space Electrical and Mechanical have performed crane tests, air drop tests, real size (?) airbag prototype development and landing impact testing, and they have achieved an accuracy of several hundred meters in landing.

How advanced are they into implementing it into a vehicle? Is this a "general" (vehicle-agnostic) development for now, or is it more geared toward the CZ-5/7 boosters? I assume the hypergolic old-generation boosters are not considered for recovery?
-DaviD-

Offline SmallKing

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #30 on: 07/17/2017 10:40 pm »
From ChinaSpaceFlight  :o :


https://twitter.com/cnspaceflight/status/886839417096216576
There are two plans so far, parafoil and multi-parachute, both for laning a strap-on booster

Thank you for the paper! Google-translating I get that the China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology's Institute of Aerospace Systems Engineering and the Beijing Institute of Space Electrical and Mechanical have performed crane tests, air drop tests, real size (?) airbag prototype development and landing impact testing, and they have achieved an accuracy of several hundred meters in landing.

How advanced are they into implementing it into a vehicle? Is this a "general" (vehicle-agnostic) development for now, or is it more geared toward the CZ-5/7 boosters? I assume the hypergolic old-generation boosters are not considered for recovery?
Seems like subscale, if it goes well, I reckon it will be used in old Changzheng series firstly for some test of controlled crash
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Offline zhangmdev

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #31 on: 07/18/2017 03:40 am »
That paper left out a few important parameters like drop test article weight, size, drop altitude, separate/touchdown velocity, parachute/parafoil size and weight. I think those are just proof-of-concept tests. Don't expect to controlled-crash recover old CZ boosters any time soon.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #32 on: 09/16/2017 06:57 pm »
Interesting from Steve Jurvetson:

Quote
Well, looks like someone got right on this challenge… And they concluded there is one best way to do it!
https://www.chinaspaceflight.com/satellite/Linkspace/Linkspace.html chinaspaceflight
#flattery

https://twitter.com/dfjsteve/status/909066542511353856

Edit to add:

I saw it on twitter before spotting discussion in SpaceX competition thread:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39688.msg1723915#msg1723915 
« Last Edit: 09/16/2017 07:14 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline Darkseraph

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #33 on: 09/16/2017 07:37 pm »
This video is linked on the above companies website, although I can't translate the page.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjg2NzA2NTg0OA==.html

By the appearance of the tests in the video, they would appear to be at a similar stage to Masten or Exos.
« Last Edit: 09/16/2017 07:41 pm by Darkseraph »
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Offline Kryten

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #34 on: 09/16/2017 09:09 pm »
The same video is on their youtube channel.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #35 on: 09/16/2017 10:45 pm »
Here's an article about research in China toward developing recoverable/reusable rocket stages to lower the cost of space launch:

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/2079822/china-developing-system-recover-reuse-parts-space
Which was what SX thought at first as well.

Then they decided it wasn't going to meet their goals and switched to propulsive RTLS.

I note that the Chinese, along with most current mainstream aerospace companies  favor the "one big engine" approach to reliability, which demands pretty deep throttling for a landing.

It may be that given the Chinese starting point propulsive RTLS is a lot harder for them to implement.
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Offline john smith 19

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #36 on: 09/17/2017 01:01 pm »
From ChinaSpaceFlight  :o :
There are two plans so far, parafoil and multi-parachute, both for laning a strap-on booster
Interesting paper, although I only read the abstract and looked at the pictures.

It looks like they aim to go with one system for both stages, so mass efficiency is important to them up front.

The problem with all these systems is the recover stresses don't align with the launch stresses. Unless you can spread those loads very efficiently in the axis at right angles to the thrust axis (typically the strongest axis on a VTO ELV stage) it will crumple. The other option is a re-design of the stage structure, which is likely to be quite extensive.

Obvious questions are do they launch over land or sea? If it's land then low accuracy is not really an issue (as long as it's reasonably flat) but if it's sea then I'd guess it's got to get a lot better if they plan to land it on some kind of vessel.

TBH if I had a clean sheet (and the cash) for an RLV design I'd launch from the vessel so the stage was over land for recovery. It took SX 5 attempts to land on the barge, but they nailed land landing first time out, admittedly after the experience of the earlier failed sea landings and Grasshopper. That suggests a stationery landing pad is a lot easier target.
« Last Edit: 09/17/2017 01:02 pm by john smith 19 »
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Offline SmallKing

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #37 on: 09/17/2017 01:53 pm »
From ChinaSpaceFlight  :o :
There are two plans so far, parafoil and multi-parachute, both for laning a strap-on booster
Interesting paper, although I only read the abstract and looked at the pictures.

It looks like they aim to go with one system for both stages, so mass efficiency is important to them up front.

The problem with all these systems is the recover stresses don't align with the launch stresses. Unless you can spread those loads very efficiently in the axis at right angles to the thrust axis (typically the strongest axis on a VTO ELV stage) it will crumple. The other option is a re-design of the stage structure, which is likely to be quite extensive.

Obvious questions are do they launch over land or sea? If it's land then low accuracy is not really an issue (as long as it's reasonably flat) but if it's sea then I'd guess it's got to get a lot better if they plan to land it on some kind of vessel.

TBH if I had a clean sheet (and the cash) for an RLV design I'd launch from the vessel so the stage was over land for recovery. It took SX 5 attempts to land on the barge, but they nailed land landing first time out, admittedly after the experience of the earlier failed sea landings and Grasshopper. That suggests a stationery landing pad is a lot easier target.
I agree with you
They plan to land on land
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Offline john smith 19

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #38 on: 09/17/2017 02:48 pm »
I agree with you
They plan to land on land
In which case high accuracy is not the driving force it is for a barge landing.
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline GreenShrike

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #39 on: 09/17/2017 04:32 pm »
It took SX 5 attempts to land on the barge, but they nailed land landing first time out, admittedly after the experience of the earlier failed sea landings and Grasshopper. That suggests a stationery landing pad is a lot easier target.

I'd not take SpaceX's early barge experiences as anything for or against barge recoveries. *Targeting* was never the issue; things like running out of hydraulic fluid, sticky throttle valves, collapsing landing legs, or propellant depletion were.

If you can't reach the recovery area at all, or you run out of landing prop, or you touch down but your legs fail, then barge or landing pad, your stage is toast. Of the four failures, three were hardware faults, one was a mission planning fault, and none of them were issues unique to the barge. Only the valve issue might not have doomed the stage if it had happened on land, due to the potentially larger acceptable landing radius, resulting in less erroneous fine maneuvering control. On the other hand, if your stage can't manage to bring itself upright at touchdown, it doesn't really matter what's under it as it tips over.

However, downrange land touchdowns do eliminate the ocean from the list of things trying to kill your booster (and barge!), so is definitely worthwhile. As such, I'd certainly take downrange land recoveries over water given the choice.

I'll admit that I'd like to see parachute/parafoil recoveries attempted, if only so they can be crossed off the list of things yet to be attempted. With a landing accuracy of "several hundred metres", you can't practically have a prepared landing pad, but the airbags mean you don't exactly need one. You also avoid needing to choose between many main engines, a very deeply throttleable single main engine and dedicated landing engines, and just use whatever you've got on the shelf. SpaceX's 3-engine re-entry burns do indicate that much less overall throttling is needed for re-entry, so perhaps single large main engines will suffice there as well.

On the other hand, if I recall correctly, Blue is designing their booster to not require an entry burn, so maybe the need can be avoided entirely. Of course Blue is also going with barge recoveries despite the risk to their large and undoubtedly rather expensive 7m booster.

Interesting times. :-)
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Offline SmallKing

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #40 on: 11/09/2017 12:04 pm »
An interesting paper from CALT's latest study, they manage to bring the stage back with steerable parachute and legs
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Offline zhangmdev

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #41 on: 11/09/2017 01:43 pm »
they manage to bring the stage back with steerable parachute and legs

Definitely not a stage. They did some experiment about controlled landing under parafoil. Most likely that is some test article of unknown size. And I suspect those legs in the censored image are just painted on.

The paper is mainly about a bunch of simulations about how strap-on booster behaves during/after separation. They expect touch-down vertical velocity no greater than 4 m/s, horizontal velocity no greater than 8 m/s. To make sure the slender structure stands on its legs, they recommend to cut off the chute as soon as touch-down. It is like asking a paratrooper to stand still right on the spot where he touches the ground. I don't think that is remotely possible.

Offline SmallKing

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #42 on: 11/17/2017 01:08 am »
SAST disclosed their reusable rocket developing schedule. They planned to do a reentry testing with grid fins on a modified CZ4C rocket on 2019, and a full landing testing using a CZ6 S1 on 2020
http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/B0c2wajCC97rVF3SXbGyWg
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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #43 on: 11/17/2017 04:21 am »
About time someone else started copying SpaceX! :-)
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Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #44 on: 11/17/2017 07:31 am »
Copying is what the Chinese do best.

Offline Darkseraph

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #45 on: 11/17/2017 07:24 pm »
They get a free pass on being somewhat derivative of F9R for inventing rocketry in the first place sometime in the 11 Century AD. That and their contributions to navigation and ballistics in general.

Seriously though, it's wonderful to see more entrants to the RLV field. Hopefully with enough entrants, lots of experience will be gained with different methods of recovery and reuse, more competition and lower costs. China has a private company Linkspace working on a similar RLV. CNES has the Callisto demonstrator in development. Hopefully others follow and rapid innovation in this field can be achieved. 
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Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #46 on: 11/18/2017 03:56 am »
Copying is what the Chinese do best.

Please do some research before making such comments
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline vulture4

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #47 on: 12/21/2017 07:11 pm »
A guided parafoil was the first proposed landing system for the Gemini capsule back in 1962, and was attempted with a suborbital rocket on the last Armadillo launch, but we've yet to see the first actual landing of a spacecraft or booster with a guided parafoil. As a booster gets larger the stresses of touchdown get more problematic, winds are hard to predict, and any lateral velocity at touchdown would be a real problem if the booster is landed vertically. But it seems like a viable strategy and it would be good to see how far China can pursue it. The combination of a parafoil and controllable thrusters (as opposed to the solid fuel rocket used on Soyuz/Shenzou) to cushion the landing and neutralize the last few meters per second of velocity might be more precise and less massive than airbages for a booster and would also be worth investigating.

Offline zhangmdev

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #48 on: 12/21/2017 08:14 pm »
I will believe it when they make a full-scale tow test vehicle like this:

https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/paraglider-capsule-gemini-ttv-1

but with a rocket stage, tow it to 8 m/s, take off, land and roll out, demonstrating it can withstand the lateral load.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Offline Kansan52

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #50 on: 10/29/2018 05:48 pm »
Flight pattern reminds me of DC-X.

Really nice!

Offline Gliderflyer

Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #51 on: 10/29/2018 08:48 pm »
Interesting that they went with jet engines; reminds me of Blue Origin's first test vehicle Charon. I guess it makes sense if you just want to test your TVC math without the distraction of getting a throttling rocket engine to work.
« Last Edit: 10/29/2018 08:52 pm by Gliderflyer »
I tried it at home

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #52 on: 10/30/2018 07:17 am »
Yes, it looks like they used two jet engines. It looks like the air intakes are the blue inlets sticking out the sides.
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Offline tehwkd

Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #53 on: 10/30/2018 07:37 am »
Yes, it looks like they used two jet engines. It looks like the air intakes are the blue inlets sticking out the sides.

Two jetcat turbofans according to LinkSpace.

https://twitter.com/Linkspace_China/status/1057107158926413824
« Last Edit: 10/30/2018 07:37 am by tehwkd »
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Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #54 on: 10/30/2018 07:43 am »
I have really been hoping to see this. I was always paranoid that somehow Elon Musk would screw up or some american politics would screw up new-space somehow.. With two competing countries doing it, this is not going away!

So... this definitely isn't some cruel fake with a hand-sized model on a piece of string is it? :)

Offline tehwkd

Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #55 on: 10/30/2018 10:20 am »
I have really been hoping to see this. I was always paranoid that somehow Elon Musk would screw up or some american politics would screw up new-space somehow.. With two competing countries doing it, this is not going away!

So... this definitely isn't some cruel fake with a hand-sized model on a piece of string is it? :)

According to the CEO of LinkSpace their hover test is happening soon.

https://www.weibo.com/kcsa301
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Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #56 on: 10/30/2018 11:18 am »
Quote
China's Linkspace is readying its own version of SpaceX's Grasshopper test rocket
by Andrew Jones Oct 30, 2018 13:47

Chinese space launch startup Linkspace appears close to testing a tech demonstrator reusable rocket similar in utility to the Grasshopper rocket SpaceX used in its development of the Falcon 9 launch vehicle.

https://gbtimes.com/chinas-linkspace-is-readying-its-own-version-of-spacexs-grasshopper-test-rocket

Chinese press release: https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/AVm8Ht1pJYUNGMrBIa2GHA

Google translation of press release:

Quote
The first ignition test of the new generation of recyclable rocket RLV-T5 (NewLine Baby)
Hacker Aerospace

△    翎Space Aerospace new generation of recyclable rocket RLV-T5 (NewLine Baby) first ignition test site real shot diagram

On October 6th, 2018, Beijing time, from design and manufacture to final assembly survey, the LVV-T5 (NewLine Baby), a new generation of recyclable rockets that lasted for several months, was slowly moved into the ignition platform after a series of preparations. At about 18 o'clock, with a roar, five dazzling Mach rings ejected, the whole arrow system worked normally, the engine parameters were normal, and the first five machines were fired in parallel.

△    The first five liquid rocket engines were successfully ignited in parallel (five strings of dazzling Mach rings)

In the next few months, Linker will create more milestones in the field of China's recyclable rockets, so stay tuned.

△    The most proud team of engineers in the hacker space

The RLV-T5 (NewLine Baby) uses five liquid rocket engines in parallel and is a similar configuration to the new Line-1 carrier rocket. Many key technologies such as multiple engine thrust adjustment, multiple start, vector nozzle, and roll control will be fully verified in the flight and recovery test of the RLV-T5, and the sub-orbital retrievable rocket RLV will be in 2019. -T6 and the 2020 carrier rocket NewLine-1 were inherited.


Offline sanman

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #57 on: 10/30/2018 05:54 pm »
Yes, it looks like they used two jet engines. It looks like the air intakes are the blue inlets sticking out the sides.

Two jetcat turbofans according to LinkSpace.

Wait - so are these jet engines an improvised substitute for rocket engines, just for the sake of cheaper development/testing?

Or is this thing really meant to use jet engines instead of rocket engines in the lower stage of the final product?
« Last Edit: 10/30/2018 06:44 pm by sanman »

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #58 on: 10/30/2018 07:52 pm »
Yes, it looks like they used two jet engines. It looks like the air intakes are the blue inlets sticking out the sides.

Two jetcat turbofans according to LinkSpace.

Wait - so are these jet engines an improvised substitute for rocket engines, just for the sake of cheaper development/testing?

Or is this thing really meant to use jet engines instead of rocket engines in the lower stage of the final product?

The former. They seem to be working on a rocket powered version for their next testing vehicle. (see the post above yours - the RLV-T5 vehicle)
« Last Edit: 10/30/2018 07:53 pm by Lars-J »

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #59 on: 10/30/2018 08:16 pm »
Yes, it looks like they used two jet engines. It looks like the air intakes are the blue inlets sticking out the sides.

Two jetcat turbofans according to LinkSpace.

Wait - so are these jet engines an improvised substitute for rocket engines, just for the sake of cheaper development/testing?

Or is this thing really meant to use jet engines instead of rocket engines in the lower stage of the final product?

They are doing the same thing Blue Origin did. Its first test lander was jet engine powered as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Origin#Charon
« Last Edit: 10/30/2018 08:18 pm by whitelancer64 »
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Offline Kryten

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Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #60 on: 10/31/2018 10:13 am »
Yes, it looks like they used two jet engines. It looks like the air intakes are the blue inlets sticking out the sides.

Two jetcat turbofans according to LinkSpace.

Wait - so are these jet engines an improvised substitute for rocket engines, just for the sake of cheaper development/testing?

Or is this thing really meant to use jet engines instead of rocket engines in the lower stage of the final product?

The former. They seem to be working on a rocket powered version for their next testing vehicle. (see the post above yours - the RLV-T5 vehicle)

 RLV-T5 is a LinkSpace vehicle, the jet vehicle is a project of CASC. Linkspace aren't involved with this, they're just implying that their program is further along.

Offline tehwkd

Re: Chinese Research into Reusability
« Reply #61 on: 11/24/2018 03:39 am »
Title translates as "[China News] China Successfully Verifies Key Technologies for Large Spacecraft Recycling | CCTV Chinese International", hopefully someone who can speak the language can give context to the video content.




-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz=MzI3NDI5MjI4OQ==&mid=2247509044&idx=1&sn=779ce6256da9b8ef548b1be2bd498bd5

Google translate:

In the past manned space activities in China, the weight of the recovered Shenzhou spacecraft manned cabin was about 3.5 tons. The reporter learned from the 508 Institute of China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation on the 22nd that the large-scale umbrella system developed by the institute combined with the large-load landing buffer system can increase the recycling weight to more than 7 tons, which is the same level as the new generation of Orion spacecraft in the United States. .

Recently, the institute adopted the 7-ton model of helicopter plug-in to successfully carry out the airdrop test of the first large-scale umbrella system and large-load landing buffer system in China, and verified the key technologies of several manned spaceflight fields. The main technical indicators were achieved. International advanced level.

According to experts from 508, compared with the single umbrella system of the Shenzhou spacecraft, the group umbrella system consists of 2 top deceleration umbrellas and 3 main umbrellas.

The parachute is mainly used for primary deceleration when the spacecraft reentry. The verified parachute is a newly developed product with a better carrying capacity than traditional products, and the umbrella design also takes into account the high resistance performance and certain stability. The main umbrella is optimized in folding, straightening and inflating, ensuring the consistency and synchronization of the inflatables between the umbrellas to meet the working characteristics of the umbrella system.

The group of umbrella systems work in hot backup mode and reduce the opening load by multi-stage closing and unfolding, so that the maximum opening load of each level is basically consistent, which greatly reduces the structural strength requirements.

Large load lossless landing recovery places higher demands on the landing buffer system. Relying on the innovation platform of the spacecraft non-destructive landing technology laboratory, the research team broke through many key technologies such as multi-balloon combination buffer dynamics modeling and simulation, complex airbag structure design, multi-layer multi-body airbag composite technology, and active airbag exhaust control.

Due to the extremely short landing buffer process, the research team developed high-sensitivity landing sensors and other products to solve the problem of rapid response landing buffer control, enabling the landing buffer system to accurately perform differential active exhaust control in real time according to the cabin overload to ensure System operational reliability and return cabin landing stability.

The reporter learned that the landing thrust engine of the Shenzhou spacecraft can only be used once, and the airbag cushioning system can be reused after structural inspection. In addition, in order to realize the return cabin hanging conversion function and create conditions for the airbag landing buffer, the scientific research team developed a high-strength hanging sling with high temperature and wear resistance using new materials, and the strength reached 4 times that of the Shenzhou spacecraft hanging sling, but the weight Only about 60% of it.

According to reports, a number of major spacecraft recycling major technologies have made breakthroughs, not only providing technical basis for major tasks such as manned landing, carrier rocket recovery and heavy equipment airdrops, but also a step towards the subsequent 15 tons of non-destructive recycling targets.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"China tests parachute and landing systems for next-generation spacecraft"

https://gbtimes.com/china-tests-parachute-and-landing-systems-for-next-generation-spacecraft

« Last Edit: 11/24/2018 04:28 am by tehwkd »
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