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General Discussion => Spaceflight Entertainment and Hobbies => Topic started by: Ronpur50 on 09/25/2014 04:24 PM

Title: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/25/2014 04:24 PM
I am starting a new series of projects that will be based on proposed Mars vessels.  I will base the models from NASA designs and alternate history books. 

First up will be from Stephen Baxter's book, "Voyage".  I plan on making the Ares and Saturn VB. And perhaps a Moonlab Space Station.
 But first up is the ill-fated Apollo-N.  I used a Airfix Saturn S-IVb stage and a NERVA engine from a Pilgrim Space Observer model.  I used the BPC as the command module, and drilled out windows.  I did not add a docking port, since the mission did not plan on docking with any thing.  I like the block 1-ish appearance that it ended up with, and added the decals accordingly. 
  The only real modification to the S-IVb stage was the removal of the outer attach points on the thrust structure, and gluing the structure a tiny bit further into the stage so it could sit on a Saturn V for launch.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/25/2014 10:58 PM
I have been trying to get a count on what parts I need for Ares and if I can make one model that is able to be configured into the various mission modes.  So, I reworked a Saturn V drawing to try to get a handle on it.  I have 3 extra S-IVb stages, a complete unassembled Saturn V, and two extra S-II stages.  So, I need to figure out how to connect them and disconnect them.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/25/2014 11:02 PM
For the Saturn VB, I reworked a drawing of the Saturn V and Shuttle to give me an idea of what it will look like.  In addition to the SRBs, it also has a taller S-II to accommodate the bottom of the MEM fairing.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/25/2014 11:08 PM
And finally, for Moonlab, I plan on building a wet workshop, and just add a Soyuz to the docking port.  Something like this.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/26/2014 12:12 AM
I am so glad I never throw away spare parts!!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 09/26/2014 02:57 AM
Great concepts!  I like the use of the Nerva on the SIVB.  I'm gonna steal that.

Here are my Voyager based space craft.

First:  The Saturn VB.  My interpretation of it had 120 in UA1207 SRBS as found on the Titan IIIC.  The differences between it and a stock Saturn V are of course the SRBs.  I then used an extra interstage to for the MEM storage between the S-II and the base of the hab module.

I used the Realspace 1:144 coversion kit for a more accurate block II and shroud.  I also ordered the Solor Panel fairings from Realspace.com

Next up is the complete orbital stack.  As you surmise, this came from 3 S-II's and 2 S-IVBs.  The base of the shroud for the MEM is the Revell S-II Engine mount cut off to fit just inside the S-II-SIVB fairing.  The Solar Panal Fairing are again from Real Space.  After the Airfix kit came out, I used the S-II thrust structure from it and replaced the Revell structure.

Finally is the craft after insertion for home.  Again 2 SIVBs.  I scratch built the solar panels and added some detail to the SIVB thrust structure.  I still have the Block I kit model on the nose, but since I got it out to take the pictures, I'll change it out for a new Block II.

I prowled E-bay and bought lots of junked Saturn V kits and some I found in local junk toy shops.  You need to use a lot of SII-SIVB shrouds to build all the variants.

In summary:
from realspacemodels.com
4 UA 1207 Titan IV Boosters.  (Although  you could use shuttle SRBs instead.)
2 Apollo CSM conversion kits for an improved model of the command module, better escape tower, and accurate shroud.
2 noses from his Saturn IB kit for the first SIVB orbital flight.
3 sets of Solar panel covers from his skylab conversion kit.

He has since brought out a skylab which could be used for the hab module, depending on how you want to display it.  He also has on-orbit Block II Apollo CSMs.

I would buy an Airfix Kit for the S-II Thrust structure.  It also has corrected Block II Apollo and shroud.

for the orbital cluster:
3 S-IIs
2 SIVBs
3 or four S-II to SIVB shrouds.  (although I have started to draw a S-II sized nose cone that looks like a large skylab for a more pleasing shape and also one for the MEM.  If I do, I will get Glenn to mold them.  Stay tuned.

Shapeways has a landed MEM and one that has the retropack and shrouds.  The shrouds are removable, but the retro pack appears not to be.

I am now thinking of doing another Saturn VB with a new shroud partily cut away to show the MEM inside the launch vehicle. 

If you have any questions, feel free to ask!

Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 09/26/2014 03:02 AM
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 09/26/2014 03:05 AM
And that's the lot.  I think in the MEM thread in Historical Space Flight I posted my scratch built 1:144 MEM and the 1:144 Shapeways MEM.  Like I said, I'm thinking about getting the "reentry version" for launch and/or Mars Orbit display.

If you consider the skylab kit from Realspace, it comes with the ATM mount and solar panels, but he built it as it ended up in orbit together with the parasals.  At some point he is going to release one as designed, but I don't know when.  But he will sell you just the pieces for the lab because he molds those.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 09/26/2014 03:10 AM
Hmm.  I don't know anyone who makes a 1:144 Soyuz.  You would have to rob one from a MIR or ISS kit.

Here's Glenn's web site, if you don't have it:

http://realspacemodels.com/html/catalog.htm
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/26/2014 11:27 AM
Thanks Mike!  I already have Glenn's Skylab model.   It is amazing.  I just finished his Atlas-Dream Chaser and built his Delta IV-EFT-1 in the spring.  I have a Soyuz from the Revell ISS, but I would have to remove the Orbital Module because it was not used for Moonlab.  I was hoping to build the stack so I can reconfigure the same model into each configuration.  I think I have figured out a way to do that with telescoping tubes running through the center of the stack. 

I have been looking at your builds and watching the MEM thread for inspiration. 

As for the Saturn VB, the book state the SRBs are 12ft in diameter and 150ft long, which is why I am using shuttle SRBs.  I have an interstage I was going to use for the MEM fairing, and the S-II top from the Revell kit to use as the base of the MEM garage. 

It will have a lot of parts I can swap out, like the solar panels, in both closed and open configuration. Those I was planning on building from plastic strip and printed paper panels.  I haven't decided if I want the Moonlab to have the windmill arrays or some earlier design.

Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 09/26/2014 01:27 PM
This is amazing, as much as the voyage novel by itself. Stephen Baxter somewhat repaired a historical prejudice when he wrote that book...  true, the Mars plans were gathering dust among NASA archives; someone HAD to write THE novel around them. He did it.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/26/2014 09:52 PM
This is amazing, as much as the voyage novel by itself. Stephen Baxter somewhat repaired a historical prejudice when he wrote that book...  true, the Mars plans were gathering dust among NASA archives; someone HAD to write THE novel around them. He did it.

I wish he had written the return part of the Voyage as well as surface operations.  But, it is a great book, and I can't believe it has taken me this long to re-read it. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 09/27/2014 12:12 AM
I really like the book.  Read it about once a year.  It is actually what got me back into modeling in 1998 which is when I started my Saturn VB.

The problem with the book is it is heavily drawn from Apollo, even to some of the dialogue.

I also really enjoy Mars Race by Greg Benford.

First Step by Zubrin is not bad.

I think if you use SRBS, you will need to extend the S-IC for a proper mount.  Of course, it is a model, so make it your own.

I was bad and ordered the 1/144 MEM with the retropack and Shroud.  Here we go...
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/27/2014 12:44 AM
I think if you use SRBS, you will need to extend the S-IC for a proper mount.  Of course, it is a model, so make it your own.

I have been looking at that.  If the bottom of the SRB nozzle is at the base of the F1 engine, it will be just at the top of the stage for the forward attach point.  Other wise, it will be into the interstage.  I don't think it will matter....but, as it happens, I have a stretched S-IC that I built years ago for another project that I never finished!

Either way, there had to be some structural work done for the SRBs.  I wonder what was done to combat the Stretch of the stack that resulted in the unmanned Saturn VB loss .  It isn't covered in the book that I remember.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 09/27/2014 02:21 AM
The loss was due to a line freezing on the LOX Line as I recall.  They put in a bellows to allow it to flex or not flex...I forget the details.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/27/2014 02:31 PM
I have the major sections set up, and I made a series of tubes in the middle of them so they can be connected.  The center tubes are actually rolls from receipt paper.  Then, Plastrux tubes will hold them together.  I need to get the correct diameter tube for it, the only one I had on hand is too small, so I wrapped in tape for now.

The MS-II stage is built up from and Airfix Saturn V S-II.  I reversed the engine shield so the raised section is now the docking port for the fueling tankers used to fuel the Earth Departure stage and ETs. 

The Saturn V is an old Monogram model.  I am using it because it does not have the ullage rockets on the interstage, as the later Saturns did not have.  I added a section on the top of the S-II to hold the MEM garage. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 09/27/2014 03:08 PM
nice progress.  good concept for connection
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/27/2014 04:26 PM
Thanks.  I used it on an ISS I built years ago, and that had a lot more connections. 
I just finished re-reading Voyage today.  I am sad that I am done, but now I have more time for the model!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 09/27/2014 09:14 PM
The loss was due to a line freezing on the LOX Line as I recall.  They put in a bellows to allow it to flex or not flex...I forget the details.

I think ice on the LH2 bellows is what killed Apollo N. The launch stretch broke the LOX lines and killed the S-VB
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/28/2014 02:00 AM
I love that we can actually discuss what happened to fictional missions like they were real missions.  That is just one reason I like the book so much.

I wish I had the talent to design mission patches for the flights!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/28/2014 02:57 AM
I just found out that this book was adapted as a radio play by the BBC back in 1999!  I can't find a download for it anywhere, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: MATTBLAK on 09/28/2014 03:05 AM
I have it in mp3 form, taken from the audio cassette version I purchased from Amazon uk some years back.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0563552417/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 09/28/2014 04:09 AM
"The logo was a disk circled by "Ares" and their three surnames.  The circle contained a stylised, pencil-shaped Ares cluster blasting towards a red star; the ships exhaust billowed out to become the stars and stripes wing of an American eagle, peering sternly at the departing spacecraft.... It was a clumsy, cluttered design... kitsch and embarrassing...."
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/28/2014 01:03 PM
That is pretty close to what they show in the picture above. (Except it is a Saturn V and not Ares and Mars is a planet and not a red star)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/30/2014 03:10 AM
I have build the main parts of Moonlab.   The S-IVb Wet Workshop, Apollo, Lem and Soyuz without an orbital module.  I still need to make a docking module for the Soyuz.  I have to hit the hobby store for some strip styrene for the solar panels Tuesday.  I also want to get some ivory paint, so I can make this spacecraft look like it has been in space for years at the time of the Apollo Soyuz flight.  The Ares stack is describe as that color once it reached Mars from being in flight for a year.  And then maybe some black window tint to make the black portions look faded.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 09/30/2014 03:33 AM
Moving right along there.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/30/2014 06:22 PM
Something different before I get back to work on the model.  The sign from the entrance to KSC that I wish I remembered when I went there the first time in 1988:
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/30/2014 09:17 PM
I added the fittings for the solar panels to Moonlab.  I wanted to do something besides a copy of Skylab, so I made them rotate.  The panels will stick straight out from those.  The docking adapter has been painted black, and when that dries, I will add some gold foil panels to it.  The main workshop has been painted ivory, so it looks "spaceworn"!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/30/2014 09:26 PM
I also did some work on Saturn VB.  The SRBs have had their attach points modified and fixed so they can be removed.  I put the bottom of the skirts level with the engine fairings.  That puts the aft attach points in the middle of the fuel tank.  I will add a strip of plastic around the tank there so it looks like the tank is built to support the thrust.

 It looks like I am further along than I am because I am reusing parts that have been painted and decals applied.  I will rotate the flags on the final paint scheme so they are visible between the SRBs.  I am thinking of continuing the black roll patterns onto the SRBs.

As you can tell by the gate sign I made up, I want to use the "worm" logo for the booster, but not sure where I am going to place that, maybe the Hab module.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 09/30/2014 10:13 PM
Think about painting the SRBs in a Titan III Roll pattern.  ??
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/01/2014 02:13 AM
Think about painting the SRBs in a Titan III Roll pattern.  ??

I like that!

I just finished listening to the audio version of this story.  Hearing Natalie York's voice while I build the model is fun!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/02/2014 01:32 AM
I have made a little more progress on Moonlab tonight. I first attached the workshop solar arrays.  I gave them a different orientation than Skylab, something I saw on one of the wet workshop models.  I made the array for the LEM mount.  I don't know how I am going to finish this module.  Maybe silver ascent stage and gold landing stage.  I thought of putting the telescope from my broken Pilgrim on top of it....maybe.  I also finished the multiple docking module in black and gold foil.  Since it is a Lunar mission, I wanted it to have some elements of a LEM, gold and black.  The Soyuz has it's basic structure done.  I have to make it's docking collar still.  I made a little ASTP docking adapter for the front of the Moonlab for Soyuz to dock to. 

Since this is Moonlab near the end of it's mission, I thought about making tiny experiment packages, antennas and things strapped to the outside of the lab, items clearly not there the entire time. 

Saturn VB is in the painting closet, white paint is drying.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/04/2014 01:06 AM
I received an Apollo Spacecraft from Realspace Models that I will use for my Moonlab.  I drilled out the docking hatch so I could put a plastic tube into it so I can dock it to the side hatch of the docking module.  I added the solar arrays to the LEM module and a bottom of a Soyuz to represent some instruments.  I built some docking petals on the nose of the Soyuz and applied the green paint to it.  I want to add the "high gain antenna" to the lab, but I haven't decided how I want to do it yet.  It is another spare part from my damaged Pilgrim 1. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/04/2014 01:19 AM
My logo for Moonlab.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 10/05/2014 12:26 AM
OK Ron, you made me do it.  I am working on my Shuttle SRBs for a new Saturn Model using them.  I don't think it would have worked out so well moving it from the VAB to the Pad.  It would have been heavier then snot with 4 SRBs plus the Saturn.

I also haven't yet found my old Pilgrim Observer Nerva.  Grrr.  I found all the other pieces though.

Edit.  Found it.  In the box with the new one and its lighting kit.  ")
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/05/2014 11:47 AM
Yes, I don't think the old MLP could hold all of that mass.  I also have been thinking of the flight rate, with 9 Saturn VBs needed to assemble and fuel Ares, and the 10th crew launch with the MEM.  Even with Pad 39C, that would be a chore to pull off. 

The shuttle SRBs may be impractical, but they sure do look impressive!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/07/2014 04:13 PM
While the painting dries on Moonlab and the Saturn VB, I went back to the Ares stack.  I have now built all of the connections to attach, remove, and reposition the various elements of the stack to represent the various flight modes of Voyage. 

First up is the Earth-Mars translation phase, easily the longest of the mission. The CSM (Discovery) on top, followed by the habitat S-IVB (Endeavour) stage, the MEM garage (housing Challenger), MS-IVB propulsion stage and the MS-II propulsion stage. 

Next, after ariving in Mars orbit, the Discovery undocks and watches as Endeavour undocks and flips. Then Discovery redocks to a side port on the Hab.

After the return to orbit of Challeneger, the Endeavour again flips and Discovery redocks to the axial port of the Hab.  The MS-II stage then fires to send the Ares on it's way home.

Finally, the MS-IVB stage is used to slow the Ares into Earth orbit, so the crew can return to Earth.

Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 10/08/2014 01:37 AM
I don't understand the set up in the 2nd picture.  Is the CSM just resting on a support that goes into the body of the thing or do you have it standing off so far from the hab module/docking adapter for a reason?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/08/2014 01:56 AM
Yes, I just haven't cut it yet! LOL  It is just on approach now, that's it!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/08/2014 02:21 AM
Here is a new picture to show it properly.  I wrapped both "M" stages in foil tape, and painted it white for the MS-II and left it silver for the MS-IVB.  I think I like the silver better.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/08/2014 02:25 AM
Here are a few pictures of the Moonlab with the Soyuz.  Many thanks to Glenn Johnson of RealSpace Models for the Apollo CSM...AKA as Grissom for this mission.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/08/2014 02:26 AM
And the Saturn VB after its first round of painting.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 10/08/2014 02:49 AM
Nice stuff
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Bubbinski on 10/09/2014 02:14 AM
You made me get the Voyage novel on Kindle!  Gonna start reading it soon.

Nice work, want to see the finished products.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/09/2014 02:17 AM
Thanks Mike and Bubbinski!

I can see the end of the project coming soon, and have started planning the next Mars Mission!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/12/2014 04:27 AM
I started decals on the Saturn VB using the decals from the Airfix model.  I decided to move the "USA" and flag on the S-1C so they are visible between the SRBs.  I need to get some black  decals to make the SRB stripes I want to do, and add "LOADED" marking to them. 

I also made up a serial number for the stack, and not just the first stage.  Working from the mention of the serial number for the exploding Saturn VB in the book, SA-5B04, I made a list of flight vehicles assuming the unmanned launch was the second launch.  I would assume more would have been made of the explosion if it had been the first flight.

SA-5B03:1st unmanned test
SA-5B04:2nd unmanned test, exploded
SA-5B05:3rd unmanned test flight.  This was not scheduled as unmanned, but was needed to recover from the explosion, which is why York's cold soak flight is cancelled.
SA-5B06:1st manned flight
SA-5B07:Unmanned test of MEM
SA-5B08:Manned test flight of MEM 009 "Iowa" Crew: Crippen, Bleeker, Gershon
SA-5B09:Manned landing test of MEM 010.  Crew: John Young...rest unknown
SA-5B10-SA-5B19: 9 construction and fueling flights for the ARES.
SA-5B20:Crew launch for ARES Crew: Stone, Gershon, York.

So, I made the serial number SA-5B20!

Who knows if it is correct!  I have no idea what happened to vehicles SA-5B01 and 02!  And yes, I know it should only be the serial number of the first stage, but I wanted the "5B" on there someplace.

Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 10/12/2014 08:15 AM
Thanks Mike and Bubbinski!

I can see the end of the project coming soon, and have started planning the next Mars Mission!

Which will be?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/12/2014 01:10 PM
From this book:
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/14/2014 05:05 PM
Apollo-N in orbit.  My first try at doing this.  It looks OK if you don't zoom in! lol

Edit: Added a version with Nerva firing!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/14/2014 08:58 PM
Here is a shot of the Ares stack through the one of the windows of Challenger.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 10/14/2014 11:26 PM
Nice work Ron
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 10/15/2014 09:15 AM
Wonderful !  :D
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 10/15/2014 09:10 PM
You need one of the NERVA exploding!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/16/2014 02:09 AM
I actually considered building the model so it could come apart and lighted to look like a radiation fire.  These are literally the first two things I have done like this, and it is fun!  So who knows what else I will do!

I do want to put Moonlab into lunar orbit and the complete Ares stack in space, maybe during it's Venus flyby.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 10/16/2014 03:06 AM
I actually considered building the model so it could come apart and lighted to look like a radiation fire.  These are literally the first two things I have done like this, and it is fun!  So who knows what else I will do!

I do want to put Moonlab into lunar orbit and the complete Ares stack in space, maybe during it's Venus flyby.

One of the few technical errors in the book  is the description of the fragmented NERVA glowing blue.  I don't think you would be getting Cherenkov radiation in vacuum.  The other was "pebbly loess".  By definition loess is not pebbly.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/17/2014 02:33 AM
Thanks for the comments, everyone!  It is nice to have someone enjoying your hard work, lol.

I did more work on the Moonlab.  You can see in the various views, the Soyuz, Apollo CSM courtesy of Realspace Models! (Thanks, Glenn, it is so much appreciated!!), the high gain antenna and LM Module.  I made the Moonlab look old and discolored, since it has been in Lunar orbit for quite a long time.  The "USA" on its hull is faded, with the "A" almost gone!  I want to work a bit more on the display stand, and this one will be done!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/17/2014 02:39 AM
The Saturn VB is coming along nicely.  It needs a few more markings, and I still need to do the roll pattern on the SRBs.  It is shown next to the mockup of the cancelled space shuttle.  Ignore the big Delta Heavy with Orion in the background, it is from a fictional timeline!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/17/2014 02:50 AM
And finally, the progress on the Ares stack.  The MS-II stage and MS-IVB stage are done.  Maybe, some day, I will make the ETs for the MS-II so it can be posed in the Earth Departure form.  The big tube up the middle is for the Ares components on top of the Saturn VB model to slide on.  The MEM garage goes on first.  Then the S-IVB Hab module slides on next.  I have made solar panels in stowed and deployed position, so it can be displayed in launch or flight mode.  And finally, the CSM-Block IV goes on top.  I am depicting the Block-IV by leaving it all white. 

I think I may have gotten too smart by making the parts swappable.  I have realized I can't display the Saturn VB and Ares at the same time!  I will have to figure out some way around this. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/18/2014 02:03 AM
Liftoff! ;D
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: roma847 on 10/18/2014 06:11 AM
Ron,
beautiful project and excellent work! (http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/goodjob.gif)

(http://scaleworld.forenworld.net/images/smilies/hallo.gif)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/18/2014 08:32 PM
Thanks, Manfred!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/19/2014 11:43 PM
I did a couple of more pictures with the Moonlab and Ares.  The first is a simple orbital view of Moonlab.  The second is the approach of Ares on it's flyby of Venus. 

I have figured out how to do a few more thing in the program.  I may try to do an Apollo-N explosion, or try to show it's damage.  Any ideas what a nuclear fire in space would look like?

Should there be stars in the pictures?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/01/2014 05:14 AM
Now that my busy season at work is over, and very successful at that, I hope to get back to work soon on my models.  In the mean time, I found a "sequel" short story to Voyage by Stephen Baxter called "Prospero One".  It is about the first British launch into orbit of a two manned crew.  It may become another project!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 11/01/2014 12:21 PM
Interesting Story.

Baxter is a pessimist about Space it seems.  Both missions are one of a kind, along with Apollo N, with crippled birds and dead crews.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/01/2014 01:07 PM
It does seam like it.  I wonder if he would have had Ares crew lost on the way home if he had continued the novel.  But, after this week, we are again sadly remained that space isn't easy.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/03/2014 05:01 AM
I am still waiting on my Shapeways MEM and other parts I need for my next projects.  So in the mean time, I created a "NASA Fact Sheet" about the expansions needed at Jacqueline B. Kennedy Space Center to support the Nerva missions.  I suppose this whole "Voyage" timeline just seams so realistic, that I want to do other things to display with my models that help tell the story of the timeline.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/03/2014 09:07 AM
Interesting Story.

Baxter is a pessimist about Space it seems.  Both missions are one of a kind, along with Apollo N, with crippled birds and dead crews.

Don't forget Titan, which is even bleaker.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/07/2014 12:18 AM
I set up a display with my Voyage models.  When the MEM gets here, I will make a little Mars surface for it to sit on and put underneath the shelf.  The Saturn VB has a temporary upper stage as a place holder while the Ares is together.  The little X-15 is the one Phil Stone flew. Also note the road sign that would be at the gate of KSC.  The display is flanked by my Tamiya Challenger and Atlantis models.  And the red and white bootie under Challenger is one used by people when they enter the shuttles while in the OPF. 

Attached is the first draft of another NASA Fact sheet about the Ares mission. I need to find better resolution drawings of the ones from the book then I will print it out and display it next to the models.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 11/08/2014 12:07 AM
I like the fact sheet touch, Ron.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/08/2014 01:31 AM
Thanks.  It is a quick way to explain the models to visitors!  I felt like I was doing a book report.

My Shapeways MEM arrived today!  Very exciting to get it!  It is amazing! 
Here are some pictures.  Since I am going out of town this weekend (almost to KSC but not quite...Orlando) I won't have time to do anything with it.

I tried to fit it under the S-IVB interstage cone that is used for the MEM shroud, it ALMOST fits.  If the plastic was scale thickness, it might.

And last is Natalie York taking her first steps, lol.  I have three of the little figures from the ISS model I may rework to be the astronauts on the surface when I set up the diorama.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/12/2014 01:41 AM
Well, crap.  While painting and sanding and painting and sanding, I broke this little frame off from the inside.  Fortunately, the ascent stage fits on the descent stage fine without it.  Started working on a Mars surface for the lander too.  I think it maybe a bit too red right now.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: roma847 on 11/12/2014 06:01 AM
Hi Ron,

nice work with the Shapeways MEM so far. (http://www.raumfahrer.net/forum/smf/Smileys/yabb/cool.gif)

How one can see the surface of the printed parts is still pretty rough even after sanding and painting.   (http://www.raumfahrer.net/forum/smf/Smileys/yabb/undecided.gif) What kind of material Shapeways have used, is this Frosted detail plastic or Ultra frosted detail?

(http://scaleworld.forenworld.net/images/smilies/hallo.gif)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/13/2014 12:00 AM
It is white strong and flexible.  It has a pitted surface, so I sprayed it with a filling primer.  That is why it looks even more pitted.  But once I sanded that down, it gets smoother. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 11/13/2014 07:49 AM
Something funny about Nathalie York: the name sounds to be a nod to Bradbury Martian chronicles - where one of the first men on Mars is called Nathaniel York  ;D
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/13/2014 09:34 AM
Something funny about Nathalie York: the name sounds to be a nod to Bradbury Martian chronicles - where one of the first men on Mars is called Nathaniel York  ;D

Really?  The book does mention Bradbury in passing.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 11/13/2014 11:24 AM
As for the Mars crew of Stone, Gershon and York -I have the (personal) suspicion their real-world counterparts would be Sally Ride, Guion Bluford, and Joe Engle.
Much like Bluford Gershon is not only the first afro-american astronaut, it also flew combat missions in Vietnam.
Stone, like Engle, flew the X-15 late in the program and had its Apollo flight cancelled.
York feminism, character and limited physical description is somewhat reminiscent of Ride.

According to Baxter he was a contender for Helen Sharman seat aboard the Mir space station but was not selected because he couldn't speak russion well enough.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Sharman
http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/nonfiction/intsb.htm
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/14/2014 01:17 AM
Interesting comparisons.  Like Ride, York is described as having bushy dark hair.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: MATTBLAK on 11/14/2014 01:34 AM
In his physical description and Vietnam flying career, Gershon seemed to me to be an analogue for Charlie Bolden. I met Dr Baxter in London at the world Science Fiction convention in August and asked him if he had based Gershon on Bolden. To my surprise, he said no - Gershon was probably a composite character.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/14/2014 01:40 AM
I also picture Bolden as I read the books.  I never really picture a real astronaut for Natalie.  I have been thinking of doing a fake crew photo using astronaut photos, so this discussion may help.  But that comes after the MEM and ordering tube for the next Mars Mission model.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/14/2014 10:35 PM
Still need to add names, but this is my version of the Ares Crew Patch, based off of STS-2!

As described in the book, with the eagle's wing turning into a flag as it launches the silver Ares to the red star representing Mars.  I added three white stars for the Apollo-N crew and a gold star that can represent the sun or Venus.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 11/14/2014 10:46 PM
I also picture Bolden as I read the books.  I never really picture a real astronaut for Natalie.  I have been thinking of doing a fake crew photo using astronaut photos, so this discussion may help.  But that comes after the MEM and ordering tube for the next Mars Mission model.

I've met and talked to Bolden two times for about 20 minutes each.  He does NOT remind me of Bolden
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/14/2014 10:50 PM
It is just the mental image I got, and keep in mind, he wasn't Administrator when I first read it, lol.   And you agree with the writer! 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: MATTBLAK on 11/15/2014 02:47 AM
I too met General Bolden a couple times - in 2011 at KSC during events surrounding STS-135. He is a good man and was patient and polite with the likes of me! It was only after I re-read the book 'Voyage' later in 2011 that I was struck by the similarities. But the character of Gershon is quite a bit more politically incorrect than General Bolden. Also, to further augment the so-called resemblance - the actor who portrayed Gershon on the BBC audio play had a voice and accent pretty close to Bolden's. And they both flew combat strike missions in Vietnam. But also, like I said; Stephen Baxter denied that Gershon was based on any real person.

I hope that seals the matter for everyone! ;)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/15/2014 11:14 PM
Well, now that is settled, who would Dr. Dana have been!?

Back to my models.  I obtained some black decal sheets and finally did the roll markings on the SRBs on the Saturn VB.  I used Mike's idea of Titan style roll patterns on the top of the boosters, but alternated the boosters with Shuttle style blocks and my original idea of the pattern on the S-1C continuing onto the SRBs.

I merged a series of rotated views to show what I did. 

I also added fin letters to the S-1C but since the "I", "II","III", and "IIII" would be hidden in their correct location, I moved them to the skirt of the SRBs.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/15/2014 11:17 PM
I have a problem with the patch in that none of my software allows me to add the names on a curve.  So, I printed it, glued them on and the scanned it.  I will take it to work sometime next week and do it on my computer there....on my break, of course.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/16/2014 09:22 PM
Sitting on Kennedy Space Center's Pad 39C, Ares-Saturn VB awaits it's launch.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/17/2014 12:32 AM
The MEM Challenger is almost finished.  I painted it silver first then masked off the CM and thruster ports.  I used thermal blankets for the crew module/airlock and gold foil for the interior of the decent stage.  I need to dig into my parts box to see if I have any LM thrusters to use on the ascent stage.  Decals will be a red NASA worm and some CSM decals, I think.  Then I will work on the Mars surface.

I know that technically, the Challenger wasn't named until well into the flight, Jan 28, 1986 to be exact, I still would like to add the name here. Maybe the name is painted on before launch but just not revealed until that day.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 11/17/2014 02:31 AM
Looks good Ron.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: MATTBLAK on 11/17/2014 04:55 AM
Beautiful work, friend! :)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/17/2014 05:13 AM
Looks good Ron.
Beautiful work, friend! :)

Thanks!  I just had this idea of simulating the mission with the models next year on the 30th "anniversary" of the flight.  Then I realized how long that would take! 

I ordered Plastucts parts to make the external tanks.  As well as the tube I need to make the modules for the next Mars mission.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 11/17/2014 12:10 PM
If you have spare S-IIs, they work fine for the external tanks.

I'm going to to make the 3D models for the S-II noses this week.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/17/2014 01:30 PM
I don't, but I am figuring that they would be rather simplified versions of the S-II, so I should be able to make them look good.  I was thinking of the nosecones too, wouldn't it make more sense to jettison them once reaching orbit?  It is just extra weight that would be needed in the TMI burn?  I know it was in his diagrams, but I have already deviated from those somewhat.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 11/17/2014 04:48 PM
Probably you are correct.  Although the tank design couild have the tank dome going up into the nose area and protruding below the S-II base.  Mine protrude on the base and I left the noses on.  I have other uses for the nose though, for my S-1D, S-II based Space Station, and the front of my IMIS booster, and the S-II based External tank for Voyager.

Just don't make the ETs the size of a space shuttle ET.  Please.  :)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/17/2014 08:21 PM
Yep, don't worry, not going to be that size!  The tube I have is the same as the S-II and I have corrugated plastic for the ends.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/19/2014 04:21 AM
I added decals to the MEM.  I went in the direction I have been trying to maintain, using shuttle style graphics and logos since this is still 1985 and 1986.  So, a red NASA worm instead of grey, it is Mars after all, and "Challenger" below that as it appeared on the orbiters.  Then, Apollo style "United States" and flag on the ascent stage.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/21/2014 07:30 PM
Have the basic build of one external tank done and the parts cut for the second one.  I will need to make attach points before I detail them.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/21/2014 10:06 PM
OK, got the tanks almost finished.  I used the same metal tape that I crinkled then smoothed a bit to represent insulation.  First I put it on the sides of the tanks, then, after I added plumbing to the top of the tanks, I added it to both ends.

I will paint it a little latter, using the same white and ivory of the main MS-II stage.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 11/22/2014 01:16 AM
That looks pretty good.  You realize the insulating foam was on the inside of the Saturn 2nd and 3rd stages, but of course, this is just thermal blankets for extra insulation, right?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/22/2014 01:44 AM
Yep, just extra blankets, and looks cool, lol.  I figure the fuel had to stay in orbit or even on the way to Mars for quite a while, so it can't hurt.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 11/22/2014 03:09 AM
Yes.  Excellent point.  I see you sacrificed two SIVB shrouds.  I rather thought you were going to jettison them and just have exposed domes on both ends?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/22/2014 10:30 AM
That is just Evergreen sheet styrene that is metal siding.  It looks just like the stringers on the Saturn V models.  I will just leave the nose cones off. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/23/2014 01:22 AM
I got to thinking about the actual 30 days on Mars, and that the crew is going to need some type of rover.  Otherwise, they are just going to spend 30 days walking around the same tiny area of the surface.  I made a tiny LRV-type rover using some shuttle wheels and bits of plastic.  Here it is in rough form.  I made a little canopy for it as well, not pressurized but enough to keep the wind-blown dust off of your visor!

I have also started a little radio controlled rover to help patrol the surface.  I would imagine with the height of the MEM, you could send it out and keep a visual on it for quite a while.  Or maybe it can follow the crewed rover for support on a sortie.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/23/2014 01:25 AM
I have also finished the main painting of the ET for the departure stage as well.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/23/2014 06:42 AM
I got to thinking about the actual 30 days on Mars, and that the crew is going to need some type of rover.  Otherwise, they are just going to spend 30 days walking around the same tiny area of the surface.  I made a tiny LRV-type rover using some shuttle wheels and bits of plastic.  Here it is in rough form.  I made a little canopy for it as well, not pressurized but enough to keep the wind-blown dust off of your visor!

I have also started a little radio controlled rover to help patrol the surface.  I would imagine with the height of the MEM, you could send it out and keep a visual on it for quite a while.  Or maybe it can follow the crewed rover for support on a sortie.

For the 1971 study, which was the last to use the NA MEM, they proposed two LRV-type landers.  This mean they could range out much further than the walk back distance. Voyage does not mention a rover but there would have been at least one.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/23/2014 11:39 AM
I found this illustration. It is from the early 90s.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: roma847 on 11/23/2014 11:55 AM
Hello Ron,

this is a fancy Rover, close to the illustration, missing only the antenna. (http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/speak_cool.gif)
Your futuristic work is very impressive, one has to have imagination, keep on dreaming.  (http://www.kartonist.de/images/Smile/n060.gif)

I stay tuned.

(http://scaleworld.forenworld.net/images/smilies/hallo.gif)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/23/2014 08:06 PM
I have to find a tiny antenna for it, lol.  That sounds like something you would be searching for!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: roma847 on 11/23/2014 09:58 PM
I'm sure, you'll find something suitable. (http://kartonist.de/wbb2/images/smilies/icon_thumb.gif)

My friend Michael used for the grid an old protection net in a washing machine, but it's for an antenna of a paper model Apollo SM (1:12), which would be a little to big for your fancy Rover.  (http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/analintruder.gif)

(http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/attachments/pasa-paper-aeronautical-space-administration/224007d1414009447-apollo-sm-1-12-dscf1407.jpg)
Source: papermodelers.com (mk310149)

(http://scaleworld.forenworld.net/images/smilies/hallo.gif)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/24/2014 06:38 AM
I found this illustration. It is from the early 90s.

Actually it's artwork by David Hardy to illustrate a 1981 paper by Bob Parkinson.  The MEM is somewhat smaller than the NA one.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/24/2014 06:39 AM
I added decals to the MEM.  I went in the direction I have been trying to maintain, using shuttle style graphics and logos since this is still 1985 and 1986.  So, a red NASA worm instead of grey, it is Mars after all, and "Challenger" below that as it appeared on the orbiters.  Then, Apollo style "United States" and flag on the ascent stage.

Where did you get them from?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/24/2014 11:46 AM
I added decals to the MEM.  I went in the direction I have been trying to maintain, using shuttle style graphics and logos since this is still 1985 and 1986.  So, a red NASA worm instead of grey, it is Mars after all, and "Challenger" below that as it appeared on the orbiters.  Then, Apollo style "United States" and flag on the ascent stage.

Where did you get them from?

The decals?  The Challenger came from the Airfix kit and the NASA worm is from a sheet of NASA logos I have had a few years.   I found it on ebay.  The CSM decals are from an aftermarket Saturn IB set from Space Model Systems.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 12/08/2014 08:53 PM
I have started cutting plastic for the Mars One model. This book was published in 1985 and was done by the same people who did the shuttle crew manual.  This mission was to have taken place in 1996-97 and been constructed in orbit with space shuttles.  And with the cooperation of the Soviet Union, ESA, India and Japan.  A crew of 11 was to launch to Mars on March 7, 1996, and using a Venus flyby, arrive at Mars on February 20, 1997.  4 members of the crew land on Mars for a 23 day stay on the surface while the rest mapped the planet and studied Phobos and Deimos.  They were to leave Martian orbit March 22 and return to Earth orbit on December 7, 1997.  They would remain in an orbital quarantine facility until December 21, when they would return to Earth by space shuttle.  The spaceship would require 28 shuttle flights for assembly and fuel, 6 Ariane IV launches for hardware and 5 launches of the Soviet G1 rocket, whatever that is.....

I built a model of this back in 1985, using two of Revell's Orbital Operations Center model.  But of course, they were in the hobby store and easier to obtain back then.  And not totally accurate.  So now I intend to build it using Plastuct tubes.  I have started by cutting and starting assembly of the four modules.  One end of each module is flat, and has observation windows. The other end has the same cone as the Spacelab Module.  I cut up two spare modules for those ends. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Bob Shaw on 12/08/2014 09:16 PM
Mat Irvine built a nice lander and rover many years ago (1973ish!), using the 1/48 Revell CM as the basis for the lander and a variety of Airfix astronaut figures - it made use of the CM mould line and didn't reveal the interior gubbins at all. I'm sure there are photographs out there on the InterWeb somewhere.

I've been working for some time on a NERVA Ares model, which uses Airfix Saturn V elements, mixed and matched. The NERVA tanks are SIC stages from the engine bays forward, with the LOX dome brought forward to fill the void below the Interstage. The SII Thrust structure is cleaned up, leaving only the central engine mount stub for the NERVA engine to sit on, while four HE spheres are fitted where the J2 mounts were. The SII forward cone is attached to the forward face of the NERVA stage, and the manned spacecraft core is essentially the S-IVB. On the front of the S-IVB, upside down, is half of the front of an SII, with the cone extending out to make the cylindrical MEM and probes garage. The S-IVB has most of the original external bumps removed and Plastruct is used to hide seams etc. The whole assembly has two dish antennae on posts.

In terms of surface treatment, again a nod to the Shuttle with a granular foam texture on the big H2 tank and masking tape patches on the manned spacecraft, along with sections of aluminium tape where there might be radiators. No solar panels, of course - this baby was ATOMIC!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 12/08/2014 11:31 PM
That sounds great, Bob!  I would love to see pics of your build.

I did a little more tonight.  I made the center connecting tunnels and attached two of the habitats.  I will have to wait on the other two, since their glue is still drying. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 12/10/2014 10:47 PM
I have attached the main modules to the middle connecting tunnels.  They still need a bit of adjustment.  Next up will be the outer connecting tunnels.  I realized I will have to detail the modules before I glue both sides together. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 12/10/2014 11:18 PM
Looks good Ron.  I hope you don't mind, I redid the interior of one of the modules from the Space Operation Centers and configured it for a Mars Lander.  Her are some shots to motivate you a little.  :)

Edit.  I'm not sure why the photos are all misoriented.  :(
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 12/10/2014 11:42 PM
Oh, I like that!  A great Mars Hab!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 12/11/2014 01:00 AM
Thanks Ron...
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 12/14/2014 08:57 AM
I really like the horizontal lander.  there is a lot going for this configuration.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 12/19/2014 03:27 AM
I thought I would play around with my Gimp and make some photos of Ares in space. 

First, is the docking of the Ares segments in orbit after launch.  I have modified the model a bit to add thrusters to the Mission Module so it can perform it's maneuvers both in Earth orbit and Mars orbit.  I also removed the big flag decal from the MS-II and replaced it with the red "United States'' as described in the book.  I also had to modify the MS-IVB stage so it could have folded solar arrays for the TMI burn.

And next is the start of the TMI burn as Ares begins her journey to Mars.
I made two views of this.  Not sure I like the second one much.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 12/19/2014 11:26 AM
ET sep.  I tried some blurriness on this, like it was from a long range camera on Skylab or something.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: RichO on 12/19/2014 04:45 PM
Nice photos Ron!!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 12/22/2014 12:11 AM
I did a little more work on Mars One.  I added the outboard tunnels to the modules.  I took a comparison photo of the plans in the book.  I have to add a bunch of Venus Probes, two comsats, two Mars Flyers and storage tanks.  That is before I add the solar arrays. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 12/24/2014 12:28 AM
Ron, are you going to do the whole vehicle?  I just found my Mars One manual and building the whole spacecraft would be quite a challenge as well as a cool display.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 12/24/2014 04:10 AM
I plan on just doing the second stage tanks, not the Earth Departure Stage.  Maybe if I had build it at a smaller scale, lol.
 But this way, I can display it with the shuttle models I have.  I am not going to buy another Shapeways MEM for this one.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 12/24/2014 05:41 PM
That should still be impressive.  Looking forward to seeing it.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 12/25/2014 12:35 PM
I hope it turns out impressive, lol.  I wish I still had the parts I had from the first version I made in 1985!

Merry Christmas!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 01/26/2015 11:59 PM
I bought two of Mike's nosecones from Shapeways.  I tested one out on top of the S-II stage of my Saturn VB.  It fits and looks great!  Well done Mike!

I am assuming this to be the launch configuration of an unmanned MEM test!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 01/27/2015 01:01 AM
Thanks Ron!  I appreciate it.  Looks good.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: tea monster on 01/28/2015 01:05 AM
I've got to get Baxter's book after reading this thread. I love that you are bringing this to life.

Oh, on a side note, what ever happened to the 'Nova' booster? I remember reading some of my Dad's National Geographics from the era and word at the time seemed to be that the Nova was the next big thing after Saturn. Now a Googly search turns up nothing  ???
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 01/28/2015 01:12 AM
I've got to get Baxter's book after reading this thread. I love that you are bringing this to life.

Oh, on a side note, what ever happened to the 'Nova' booster? I remember reading some of my Dad's National Geographics from the era and word at the time seemed to be that the Nova was the next big thing after Saturn. Now a Googly search turns up nothing  ???

I remember those issues too! :)

Nova was replaced by Saturn developments with similar payload.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_(rocket)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 01/28/2015 01:23 AM
I've got to get Baxter's book after reading this thread. I love that you are bringing this to life.


Thanks, glad you are enjoying it.  I don't know if anyone realizes it, but in March it will be the 30th Anniversary of the flight if it was a real timeline.  Maybe we need an update thread on the mission! 

And I need to get back to my other Mars vehicle too.  But a B-52, Jonny Quest Dragonfly and a Vostok among other things put it on the back burner.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/10/2015 03:41 PM
In August 1984, time was running out for the MEM development.  MEM 009, the Iowa was the first manned test of the spacecraft.  With a crew of Adam Bleeker and Ralph Gershon in the MEM and Bob Crippen in the CSM,New Jersey, the MEM was put through a series of maneuvers.  If you have read the book, it didn't go exactly to plan. 

Absolutely nothing is written in the book about the configuration of the Saturn VB launch vehicle.  So I improvised.  Putting the MEM under the same interstage shroud that is used on the Ares launch, I placed the Apollo CSM atop of this.  When in orbit, it would dock with the MEM and the two crew members would climb through the connecting tunnel.  The they would drift away as Bob Crippen gave them room to test the MEM.  The model is my previous Saturn VB with a new payload.  I Gimped the model onto a MLP rolling out of the VAB.  Then I placed the CSM/MEM in orbit.  I added an undocked view as well.



Edit: Replaced VAB picture.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/11/2015 04:34 AM
In my continuing obsession with this book and documenting these flights that never happened, I created a series of graphics of the 9 Saturn VB flights used to assemble the Ares vehicles in earth orbit.  I have come up with 4 flights for the spacecraft assembly and 5 for the fueling.  Then the final flight for the Mission Module and crew.  I wonder also if there would have been Saturn IB flights with crews to assemble the spacecraft during the first four flights?  I have no intention of building all of these models! 

I wonder how many of these flights would have been completed by this time 30 years ago in this alternate timeline?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/11/2015 07:05 AM
So what guided your colour choice for the pristine heat shield of the MEM?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/11/2015 11:49 AM
The can of grey paint I had left that wasn't empty and looked cool in contrast to the white.  That was it!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/11/2015 03:10 PM
I like your chart.  I'm gonna print it out and put it in a cheap frame.  :)

yes, I think there would have been Saturn IB launches to support the construction.  At least for launches 2 - 4.

Or, Apollo's from Skylab would have been brought over.

My mental picture, in contrast to yours, was launches 6 - 10 would have looked like 4 and 5 with an S-II tank, but I admit I never calculated the volume requirements for fuel and oxidizer.

I also think the MS-IV and MS-II launches, particularly if they were empty, would be conducted by stock Saturn V's.  And maybe the tanker flights as well.  The Skylab launch did not, I believe, come close to the payload capacity of the two stage Saturn V launch.  I'd have to calculate them up.

Since they had three pads, they could keep up a pretty fast cadence.  The MS-IVB and MS-II and the first ET could have all been on the pad and launched within days of each other.  Rolling out the 2nd ET could have been done right quickly with the addition of a 4th Mobile Launcher so within 30-60 days, the basic vehicle would have been assembled.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/11/2015 03:11 PM
Upon more consideration, the MEM test could have been a dual launch.  A Saturn V putting up the MEM and a IB putting up Apollo.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/11/2015 03:19 PM
Upon more consideration, the MEM test could have been a dual launch.  A Saturn V putting up the MEM and a IB putting up Apollo.

I actually thought about this.  I think it would have worked.  I don't think it may have needed a VB for that, just a regular Sat V.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/11/2015 03:29 PM
I like your chart.  I'm gonna print it out and put it in a cheap frame.  :)

I plan to do the same.  It will look good behind my models.  And be advised, I just updated it, I forgot to list the MEM payload!

yes, I think there would have been Saturn IB launches to support the construction.  At least for launches 2 - 4.

Or, Apollo's from Skylab would have been brought over.

I was thinking 3, for assembly of the MS-IVB to MS-II, ET  I then ET II.  Tankers would be automated docking.

My mental picture, in contrast to yours, was launches 6 - 10 would have looked like 4 and 5 with an S-II tank, but I admit I never calculated the volume requirements for fuel and oxidizer.

You mean with a larger tanker?  Possibly, but I have an extra Airfix Skylab to be made into a tanker, so they look like this now!

I also think the MS-IV and MS-II launches, particularly if they were empty, would be conducted by stock Saturn V's.  And maybe the tanker flights as well.  The Skylab launch did not, I believe, come close to the payload capacity of the two stage Saturn V launch.  I'd have to calculate them up.

He wrote they were 9 Saturn VB assembly flights, so that is what I did.  I think the test flights could have been Saturn V.

Since they had three pads, they could keep up a pretty fast cadence.  The MS-IVB and MS-II and the first ET could have all been on the pad and launched within days of each other.  Rolling out the 2nd ET could have been done right quickly with the addition of a 4th Mobile Launcher so within 30-60 days, the basic vehicle would have been assembled.

Sound about right.  I want to figure it out too, and go backwards for approximate launch dates. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/11/2015 10:17 PM
I'm not so sure I agree with Baxter's remarks in the prologue.

"...and they're still here, although nowadays, they're disturbed every few months by a new launching.

It has taken nine Saturn VB launches so far to put the Ares complex into orbit.  Today's will be the tenth.  So nesting isn't so good anymore"

So I think the book says there are three pads, but maybe it's four.  So three Saturn V's could be on the pad with the MS-IVB, MS-II, and #1 ET ready to go.

The pace of the moon campaign had launches from Apollo 8 - 11 about one every two months.

Given that, with 4 mobile pads, we would have the three launchers above standing ready with no reason I can see that ET#2 two would be stacked and ready to go.  (If they were empty, I'd see no reason why they would need a VB, but will give Baxter that.)

If the campaign was extended over months then we would have a lot of boil off.  So for fun, lets go down the road:
The Moonlab launch, on a Standard Saturn V EDIT:  NOV 80
We had Apollo-N which I think was a standard Saturn V.  EDIT:  NOV 80
Then we can posit the first Saturn VB launch  EDIT:  JUL 80?
Then the 2nd Saturn VB explodes EDIT OCT 81
EDIT:  Natalie's cancelled MEM Space Soak Flight:   MAR 81?
EDIT:  3rd Unmanned Saturn V EDIT:  OCT 82?
EDIT: Gershon's MEM Test flight.  EDIT:  AUG 84
EDIT: Young's MEM Earth Landing OCT 84?

And then we begin the stacking for the final campaign.
D-90 begin stacking the MS-IVB Launch
D-75 begin stacking the MS-II Launch
D-60 begin stacking ET#1
D-45 begin stacking ET#2
D-30 MS-IVB to pad
D-15 MS-II to Pad
D-7 ET#1 to Pad
D-Day Launch 1 - MS-IVB.  EDIT:  JAN 1985
D+7 Mobile Pad from Launch I moved into VAB
D+14 Launch 2 -- MS -II
D+21 ET#2 moved to pad
D+28 Launch 3 -- ET #1
D+30 - Launch 4 stacking (Fueler 1) Begins
D+35 Mobile Pad from Launch 2 moved into VAB
D+42 Mobile Pad from Launch 3 Moved to Pad
D+45 Fueler 1 to pad.
D+50 Fueler 2 begins stacking
D+60 Fueler 3 begins stacking
D+ 65 Fueler 2 to pad
D+70 fueler 4 begins stacking
D+75 Fueler 3 to pad
D+85 Fueler for stacked, ready to move to pad
(Now we need to accelerate due to boil off and such)
D+90 Fueler 1 Launched
D+95 Mobile pad to VAB
D+100 Fueler 2 Launched
D+105 Fueler 5 begins stacking
D+110 Fueler 3 Launcherd
D+115 fueler 2 LUT to VAB
D+120 Fueler 4 lauched
D+125 Stacking of Ares I
D+145 :  Fueler 5 to Pad
D+165:  Ares I to pad
D+170:  Fueler 5 Launched
D+180:  Ares I Launch March 21, 1985

I think I got the sequence right.  I'm not sure how long the stacking procedure was, but if we had 4 bays, 4 Crawlers, and 5 LUTs, I'm thinking we could stack and get to the pad in 60 days.  Maybe faster.

We don't really know how many other launches there were.


I would also expect 2 Saturn IB launches, maybe 3 to assemble the Ares Core, but I agree tankers would be automated.
And then every 180 days or so, maybe Skylab Launches.

I've been enamored with this book since I read in 1995.  I was planning the Saturn VB from then until Feb 1998 when I moved down here (but I used Titan 7 segment SRBs), and the MEM from about 2000 until 2006 or so.

Did I mention, I really like your picture?  :)


Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/11/2015 11:18 PM
There had to be two MEM test flights, since a second was with John Young piloting a landing at Edwards.  The "Cold soak" long duration flight was cancelled. Which was to be Natalie's first flight.

And I agree, there is no way that it could have been done with a monthly flight to assemble.  I think it had to be within 90 days, if that could be done.  If there was a 5th mobile launcher, two vehicles could have been stacking while 3 were on the pad.  That is only 2 more than real life.  And we have the 3rd, possibly 4th pad.  So, maybe 2 flights a week for assembly?  Can you imagine one CT taking an empty ML back to the VAB while another rolls out with a full Sat VB!

The 1st test flight of the MEM was just the previous fall, so the second may have been the previous winter, November or December.  That cuts it rather close to the March launch of the Challenger MEM, but at least it went up on the last flight.  And we know Columbia Aviation was working around the clock to get it ready!

The thing that really bothers me is the fuel taken in the MS-IVB and MS-II to Mars and the boil off.  Would it last the 2 years of the mission?  Even with my added blankets on the outside of the tank?  Which is another reason I am not so sure that the MS stages or ETs were launched empty.  Hence the use of the big Saturn VB.

Money seams to have not been much of a problem, with everything thrown into this flight in NASA's budget.  Moonlab and Skylab were done by then, and no unmanned missions at all.  But after Ares....I just don't see any more missions to come.  I think everything went in for one shot. 

Which picture do you like, lol?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/11/2015 11:22 PM
The return was the end.  Perhaps Skylab would continue.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/13/2015 06:27 AM
It's one of the poignancies of the book.  Just about everything gets sacrificed for one shot of Mars.  Apollo landings past 14 (which becomes a J class mission), Pioneer Venus, Pioneer Jupiter-Saturn, Viking, Voyager, the Space Shuttle.  There were however two Skylabs and Moonlab (a wet Saturn workshop in lunar orbit) to get long duration experience.  And of course the tragic flight of Apollo N.  A couple of times characters wonder at what might have been - the Space Shuttle, Voyager, etc.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/13/2015 11:05 AM
What I recently found very interesting was, buried in the narrative, there were 3 Skylab Missions/year from 1973 (all apparently launched on Saturn IB as wet workshops) for at least 36 Saturn IB launches and 5 Moonlab Missions, for at least a total of 41 launches.

Then we add Apollo N and the nine development missions culminating with Ares (remembering one exploded) and the five tanker launches, equaling another 15 launches, so we have a grand total of 56.

There is no mention, other than the diverted Moonlab, of additional Skylab launches to replace Skylab 1 or logistics flights, which certainly be needed, say 3 or 4 Skylabs and 1 Logistic flight per year, for about 16 launches, giving us 72.

Contrast this with only 15 shuttle flights from April 1981 to January 1985 and the fictional launch cadence is extremely robust, far from the severely limited program impression you get from the main narrative.

Food for thought.

What happens after the Ares Return in November 1986?  More Skylab flights?  In support of what?

It would be interesting, but probably depressing, to have VOYAGE:  The Return and Beyond.

Perhaps NewSpace takes off, so to speak, but again, for what pupose?  And what are the Soviets doing during all this, beyond the single flight to Moonlab?  Surely there was more than 1 N-1 Launch.

Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: MATTBLAK on 02/13/2015 11:20 AM
The book is amazing - I've read it several times. I wish Baxter would do an immediate sequel, but perhaps that wouldn't give us much in the way of satisfaction. I'd prefer he did a sequel set perhaps 25 years after Ares where the world is treating the mission as a previous generation's folly and oddity and that space exploration has become a bit stagnant - maybe even idiotic conspiracy nuts could have something to say about it?! ;) :(

I'd like to see the Ares Astronauts involved with or perhaps figureheads pining for a revitalized world space program and the prospects for a new Commercial space race to the Moon and beyond. Perhaps Natalie York could be a slightly reclusive Armstrong-like person but her crewmates more passionate about space and agitating for more political and commercial interest and involvement? (Aldrin anyone?)

Steven Baxter could draw his cues and inspirations from today and maybe even have his own Elon Musk equivalent or equivalents! :)  Hey, Dr Baxter - are you reading this?! ;)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/13/2015 12:18 PM
I love how my modeling thread has become a discussion for this book!  It really is a fun book.  Plus the discussion is helping me with model ideas.

This launch cadence that  Mike has researched is crazy.  We are talking 4 pads and 5 MLPs just to accomplish it.  10 Saturn VB launches just for the Ares Mission alone is staggering.  That would be the same as every Saturn V launch from Apollo 4 through Apollo 15 would be for a single mission! And in a span of 90 days!  Pad 34 would have to stay active to support Sat 1B flights and Skylab. 

The astronaut corp would indeed have no lack of missions, but the corp would be much smaller than what we had with shuttle.  The loss of the last 3 lunar landings would have been worth it in my opinion. 

I don't see York becoming a recluse.  She was too opinionated and outgoing for that.  She would have been using her fame to promote going back to Mars, and staying there.  She would have wanted to go "home" again.  I think she would be making the "Get your ass to Mars" t-shirts, just like Buzz is!



Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/13/2015 12:19 PM
Steven Baxter could draw his cues and inspirations from today and maybe even have his own Elon Musk equivalent or equivalents! :)  Hey, Dr Baxter - are you reading this?! ;)

Yes, I hope so!  ;)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/13/2015 01:56 PM
I have updated the flight chart so the fuel tankers are now S-II based.  Mike's calculations show that 5 S-IVB based tankers would not do the job. 

I also made a photo of the post separation of the MEM ascent stage during the orbital test.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/13/2015 09:21 PM
The book is amazing - I've read it several times. I wish Baxter would do an immediate sequel, but perhaps that wouldn't give us much in the way of satisfaction. I'd prefer he did a sequel set perhaps 25 years after Ares where the world is treating the mission as a previous generation's folly and oddity and that space exploration has become a bit stagnant - maybe even idiotic conspiracy nuts could have something to say about it?! ;) :(

I'd like to see the Ares Astronauts involved with or perhaps figureheads pining for a revitalized world space program and the prospects for a new Commercial space race to the Moon and beyond. Perhaps Natalie York could be a slightly reclusive Armstrong-like person but her crewmates more passionate about space and agitating for more political and commercial interest and involvement? (Aldrin anyone?)

Steven Baxter could draw his cues and inspirations from today and maybe even have his own Elon Musk equivalent or equivalents! :)  Hey, Dr Baxter - are you reading this?! ;)

Baxter's novels generally are very dark, even nihilistic. So you might not like it if it happens.  The Ares crew don't make it back alive, the US crewed space program dies, The USSR finally lands up on the Moon but abandons it's space program with the breakup. China never puts anyone in space at all........

Probably why Voyage is the only one of his novels I like.  if you want to be depressed, read Titan.

But Ron, have you thought of sending photos of your work to Baxter?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/13/2015 09:28 PM


But Ron, have you thought of sending photos of your work to Baxter?

I did it yesterday, in fact.  And a link to this thread.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: MATTBLAK on 02/13/2015 09:32 PM
Voyage is a less dystopic book than most of his others. I would hope that if he did a sequel, he would continue in it's more hopeful vein. And upon reflection I think that the idea that Natalie York might be more like Buzz Aldrin, pushing for a return to Mars is probably more in keeping with her character. But I also see Ralph Gershon as quite a character, likewise pushing for Mars, too. Maybe he could do the Buzz approach and York more dignified!

Also, I've been thinking about the multiple Pad 39 scenarios - would those pads have been quite a lot like the traditional Apollo era ones we know? For the high-thrust, enhanced Saturns, what modifications would they need to the sound suppression systems and what sort of maintenance would they need for the high flight rates? I wonder if anyone would like to take on building a higher-tech, more modern Pad 39C as a large scale model? ;)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/13/2015 11:30 PM
One of the things I liked about Voyage was how much it was based on a very deep understanding of events behind the scenes with Apollo, details which were not readily available for some years after the book was published. 

Even now, some things like the deep issues with NERVA which he highlights are not widely understood.  It would be good to know the research background to writing the book, what source he read and how be accessed in the early to mid 90s.

Ron, if he response, perhaps you can invite him to join the discussion?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/13/2015 11:33 PM
Here is an updated Voyage Time Line from Apollo 13 through return.

I assumed 5 day pause between launches.  Ths allows time for orbital assembly and disposal of the tankers before the next launch.
I assumed that by this time, NASA could stack, move to the pad, and conduct final preparations within 45 days.
We Assumed 4 Pads (39A-D), 5 MLPs/LUTS, and 2 Tractors.
I give Ares 1 longer on the pad for final checkout.
The last tanker goes up fairly late prior to scheduled departure to top off the fuel tanks.

Enjoy.

EDIT 15 FEB.  I've replaced the below text with a table.  I can't figure out how to format it as a table.  If someone would have a go at it, I'd appreciate it.

DATE     MISSION       PAD     REMARKS
13 APR 1970   Apollo 13        39A      Exploded en route to the Moon
27 AUG 1971   Apollo 14        39A      Last Lunar Landing

15 JAN 1972                       Mars Program Announced

14 MAY 1973   Skylab 1        34      Saturn IB Wet Lab launched
25 MAY 1973   Skylab 2        37      Repaired the lab, Conrad, Kerwin, Weitz
28 JUL 1973   Skylab 3        37      Military Skylab.  Mattingly, Crippen, Truely.
30 JUL 1973      Skylab 4         34               Saturn IB delivers ATM to orbit, contains Military gear.
                                                                Skylab 3 crew docks it with the main lab.
16 NOV 1973   Skylab 5        37      Bean, Garriot, Lousma
MAR 1974         Skylab 6         37               Carr, Gibson, Pogue
DEC  1974         Skylab 7         37               Brand, Lenoir, Lind, (Note 1.)


AUG 1976            Moonlab 1     39A      Jones, Stone, Dana (Edit:  Bleeker to Dana, Priest to Stone)
SEP 1977            Moonlab 2     39A
AUG 1978            Moonlab 3     39A

DEC 1979                               First SRB test for Saturn VB

OCT 1979            Moonlab 4        39A
NOV 1980            Moonlab 5      39A      Muldoon. EDIT:  Bleeker, Stone. Last Moonlab?
NOV 1980            Apollo N         39B      Jones, Priest, Dana,  Nerva explodes in orbit.  (Edit Bleeker>Dana)
27 NOV 1980    N-1                    Soviet Launch to Moonlab.  What follows this in the Soviet Program?

3 JUN 1981                       Mars Excursion Module (MEM) Request for Proposal (RFP Released

AUG 1981            Ares A-1         39A      First Saturn VB Launch
NOV 1981            Ares A-2         39A      Explodes on Lift Off
NOV 1981                               MEM Awarded to Columbia
NOV 1982            Ares B         39 A      Manned Saturn VB Trans Lunar Flight  EDIT:  Stone, Bleeker, Curvell
NOV 1983            Ares C         39 B      Unmanned Test Flight
NA               Ares D            Cancelled.  Space Soak Mission EDIT:  UNK, UNK, Gershon, York’s
NA               Ares E-1                 Cancelled
AUG 1984            Ares E’         39A      MEM Orbital Test Flight (Crippem, Bleeker, Gershon)(Note 1.5)
OCT 1984            Ares E-2         39A      MEM Landing Trial (Young)

15 DEC 1984   Saturn VB w/ MS-IVB on 39A, MS-II on 39B, ET-1 on 39C, ET-2 on 39 D, Tanker 1 stacked in VAB Bay 1 Ready to Roll to Pad.

21 DEC 1984    MS-IVB          39A
22 DEC 1984                       Tanker 2 begins stacking in VAB Bay 2
23 DEC 1984                       Tanker 1 Moves to Pad 39A
26 DEC 1984    MS-II          39B
28 DEC 1984                        Tanker 3 Begins Stacking in VAB Bay 3
31 DEC 1984    ET-1            39C      (Note 2)
2 JAN 1985                       Tanker 4 Begins Stacking in VAB Bay 4
5 JAN 1985    ET-2            39D
7 JAN 1985                        Tanker 5 Begins Stacking in VAB Bay 1
22 JAN 1985    Tanker 1         39A
24 JAN 1985                         Ares 1 Begins Stacking in VAB Bay 2
5 FEB 1985    Tanker 2         39B
11 FEB 1985    Tanker 3         39C
16 FEB 1985    Tanker 4         39D
13 MAR 1985                          Ares 1 at Pad 39A
15 MAR 1985    Tanker 5         39B
21 MAR 1985    Ares 1         39A
8 SEP 1985                                              Venus Encounter
25 MAR 1986                                                Enter Mars Orbit
27 MAR 1986                                                Challenger lands on Mars
30 MAR 1986                                                 First Mars Walk, Natalie first person on Mars
27 APR 1986                                                 Challenger Lifts off from Mars
30 APR 1986                                                  Ares 1 Departs for Earth
4 NOV 1986                                                  Ares enters high Earth Orbit

6 NOV 1985                          Ares 1 Return.  We went to Mars and Back, now what?

Note 1. In the deep background, 3 Skylab Missions/Year are flown throught the book.  The Skylab 6 crew above would have flown a 20 day mission after our timeline's Skylab 4 and was also the rescur launch vehicle.  Skylab B (in our time line would have been launched in May 1973, but instead was diverted to Moonlab.   I hypothesize there are additional yearly or twice-yearly automated resupply missions and the Skylabs are replaced every 3 years or so for possibly as many as 28 additional Saturn IB launches from Pads 34 and 37.  Interestingly enough, starting with Skylab 1, there are at least 36 Skylab flights, 5 Moonlab flights, Apollo-N, 7 Ares Development flights, and the 9 Ares assembly flights for at least 58 and perhaps as many as 86 depending on additional Skylab launches and logistics flight.  Contrast this rate with the 15 Shuttle launches from August 1977 through January 1985.

EDIT:  Note 1.5.  Multiple Skylab Flights explains Bleeker's disqualification from Ares 1 of too much time in space.  Gershon only has one flight, with Bleeker, and Natalie has none.  What was Stone doing all this time?

Note 2.  We (Ron and I) postulate the MSI and MSII use automated assembly with a Skylab Crew nearby observing.  ET-1 and ET-2 are Semi-Automated, again with a Skylab Crew observing and assisting in some manner.  The Tankers are automated as well and dock with the Skylab crew observing.

What would have been going on during the mission?  The Skylab flights might have continued.

The book talks about a contingency mission to retrieve the crew if for some reason they are unable to use their own Apollo to deorbit.

Maybe Ron can do a chart with the whole history!

EDIT 14 FEB.  Inserted Mattingly into the Skylab 2 crew, added launch for ATM, historic Skylab crews pushed back to 5 and 6, and added Skylab 7 which was a planned mission, originally following Skylab 4 in our time line.  Added Post launch timeline.


Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/13/2015 11:46 PM
Was Skylab a wet lab in the book?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/13/2015 11:46 PM
This is a great timeline!!  And yes, I want to do up a NASA Fact Sheet with graphics of all  the missions!  I am thinking maybe I should have started this project using the 1/200th scale Saturn V kit.  I could have built more models.

Oh, here is something I found on line.  The man who in this timeline, inspired a nation to go to Mars.  President Kennedy as he would have looked in 1985 for the Ares launch.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/13/2015 11:47 PM
Was Skylab a wet lab in the book?

Skylab and Moonlab were both wet.  The only dry lab was the Mission Module of Ares.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/13/2015 11:51 PM
I am trying to keep documents in the era, so to speak, so I roughed up this graphic to show the layout of the Ares launch vehicle. 

And after I drew this up, I realized I forgot the Orbital Maneuvering Module for my model.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/14/2015 12:04 AM
Was Skylab a wet lab in the book?

Skylab and Moonlab were both wet.  The only dry lab was the Mission Module of Ares.

Page reference? ;)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/14/2015 12:20 AM
Was Skylab a wet lab in the book?

Skylab and Moonlab were both wet.  The only dry lab was the Mission Module of Ares.

Page reference? ;)

LOL, if you want page references, then I will need to read it again.....wait, that isn't a bad thing!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/14/2015 01:23 AM
In the Apollo 13 scene, MIchaels is explaining how they reverted to Saturn IB wetlabs.  Its also stated in the book that Skylab 1 is damaged on ascent and Conrad and crew repair it, inferring that it was similar damage and remedy to the actual event.

In the scene where Jones, Priest, and Bleeker are told they are flying to the moon, they are told it will be a wet lab and that Apollo will drag the SIVB into lunar orbit and they will just do a minimum mission to begin the outfitting of the lab.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/14/2015 01:41 AM
Stone would have been the dignified one I think.

Natalie would have been a crusader.  Gershon might be something like Gene Cernan, but he's pretty brash.

I cannot imagine trying to build that launch pad.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/14/2015 02:19 AM
Here, then would be a decade of spaceflight, from 1971 to 1980.  Starting with Apollo 13 and ending with Apollo-N and Moonlab 5.  Assuming 3 Skylab sorties per year, early, mid and late.  Could a single Skylab have flown from 1973 to 1980?  I doubt it, so maybe one of those Saturn 1b flights could have been a second wetlab, Skylab C, since Skylab B became Moonlab.

I will reformat this later, and clean it up a bit.

And this actually uses up all of the original Saturn V procurement of 15.  The remaining flights would be Saturn VB.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/14/2015 02:24 AM
Mike, I just noticed your chart has Bleeker on Apollo N, it was Jones, Priest and Dana.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/14/2015 02:45 AM
Fixed.  Added a note.  Multiple Skylab flights explains Bleeker getting dropped from Ares 1.

What was Stone doing all this time?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/14/2015 02:52 AM
From Wikipedia, here is a map of LC-39 as conceived in 1963.

 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/14/2015 02:53 AM
And now I'm thinking Jarvis as a successor to Saturn IB and Saturn VB.  After all, were not going to Mars anymore, are we?

And you could always make them a Tricore and put an HL-20 or 42 on top?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: MATTBLAK on 02/14/2015 03:08 AM
Jarvis would have been a terrific booster! I still think it would be a good project now; using up the old F-1s first, then transitioning to the new 'F-1Bs' after that, with the J2-X on the second stage. Using Shuttle ET tooling and the leftover F-1s and J-2s; what's not to like? Upgrading those engines eventually and adding a set of Titan SRBS would have made a formidable heavy lifter - I would have liked it better than Shuttle C.

Although, in the Baxter Universe there was no Shuttle tooling and Mr Jarvis didn't get to perish on Challenger.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/14/2015 04:51 AM
Fixed.  Added a note.  Multiple Skylab flights explains Bleeker getting dropped from Ares 1.

What was Stone doing all this time?
As I recall the book does say he had less time in space than Bleeker.  He was at Moonlab during Apollo N.  Perhaps the rest of the time he was involved in development work, one of the astronauts that was constantly overlooked for mission assignments.  Were there not some Shuttle astronauts who served for many years by had few flights?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/14/2015 05:56 AM
Corrected the Moonlab 1 and 5 Crews.

Moonlab 1:  Jones, Stone, Dana
Moonlab 5, Muldoon, Stone, Bleeker.

Added Crew for B Mission:  Stone, Bleeker, Curvel
Added Crew foe E-1 Mission:  UNK, UNK, Gershon, York
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: tea monster on 02/14/2015 06:48 AM
Cool! How are you setting up your photo shoots?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/14/2015 11:39 AM
For the photos, I just try to work out the angle that I need to photograph the model, either by reviewing what I want to replace in the NASA photo or by sketching out what I want in the orbital photos.  Then, set up the model, figure out shadows, if any, and take the picture.

I was just thinking this morning, wouldn't the Skylab need a second unmanned launch to take up the ATM since it would be based on the LEM?  Or would the initial unmanned launch be able to take up the ATM as well as the wet workshop.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/14/2015 01:18 PM
I believe you are right.  The Apollo SM had to be shot fueled to enable the Saturn IB to lift it.

But also perhaps, they didn't use it in this timeline that was devoted to furthering Ares.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 02/14/2015 08:08 PM
That thread is amazing.

Quote
What happens after the Ares Return in November 1986?  More Skylab flights?  In support of what?

Well, don't forget that those americans who didn't go to Mars fought a conventional, deadly WWIII the same year - 1986.
What ?
Tom Clancy Red Storm Rising is another "alt history" with interesting things happening in summer 1986 - the moment when the Ares crew is returning to Earth.
Imagine Stone or Gershon figures as a teletype tell them about USS Nimitz nearly sunk by those pesky Soviets. To think they had flown around the Moon with them !

"The Ares crew is returning to a traumatized United States they won't recognize anymore."  :o

(yes, I red both novels at the same time, think it was 2007, which made for interessing crossovers)

Red Mars Rising !
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/14/2015 10:01 PM
Corrected the Moonlab 1 and 5 Crews.

Moonlab 1:  Jones, Stone, Dana
Moonlab 5, Muldoon, Stone, Bleeker.

Added Crew for B Mission:  Stone, Bleeker, Curvel
Added Crew foe E-1 Mission:  UNK, UNK, Gershon, York

I just realized that Dana was supposed to be a rookie on Apollo-N in 1980, but he also flew Moonlab-1 in 1976.  OOPS.

The second manned Skylab crew was all military, led by Ken Mattingly. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/15/2015 12:14 AM
Re:  Mattingly.  Oh.  Yeah.  I don't think that in 1979 Skylab would have been able to supply any real significant information, but we can adjust and push the other crews back.

I'm also figuring out the Venus flyby, Mars Orbital Insertion date, landing date, first steps on Mars, Martian lift off, departure for earth, and insertion back into Earth Orbit and will post those soon.


Meanwhile, just to add to the goodness of the thread, here is another persons Voyage interpretation from Starship Modelers last contest. 

http://www.starshipmodeler.com/contest/scr_03.htm


Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/15/2015 12:15 AM
I have found a reference to something called "Slush Hydrogen" as a propellant in an S-IVB stage variant, the S-IVC.  Most this study is beyond me, but it may be a solution to the boil off of fuel during the mission.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/15/2015 02:34 AM
I found this diagram of a MEM test in Earth Orbit.  I assume this would be similar to the test mentioned in the book.  Except the first did not land and the seconded manned mission landed.

So, now I have to decided which shroud would be used.  One would combine the SLA with the MEM Garage to be used on the flight (left).  The second is a new build that is more streamlined (right). 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/15/2015 02:35 AM
As I was planning some more Saturn variant construction, it occurred to me the Wet Skylab would only have had a docking adapter on the front and no ATM, so it would have looked more like Apollo 5 then Skylab.  And also no Heat Sink, at least in the was of Skylab.

I have my MS-II launch vehicle somewhat pieced together, but using an Airfix Saturn V kit.  The Airfix S-II will be the MS-II with its more detailed insulation modeling setting it apart from the Revell S-II which will be the 2nd Stage.  I will be making a new Shapeways nose for the Airfix kit as the S-IVB Adapter is integral to the part.  Unlike my Ares stack, it will use Shuttle SRBs instead of Titan IIIM SRMs.

Then, as I discussed above, I will model the Wet Skylab Launch vehicle like Apollo 5 and sacrifice another S-IV to be the orbital Skylab.

Edit:  But Wait!  Attached a picture of a conceptual Wet Workshop which shows an ATM.  I still don't think a IB could have lifted this though...

EDIT:  But wait!  This looks is a different design, so for fun we can add another Saturn IB launch placing this in orbit, also carrying the secret Military stuff for Mattingly's mission.  So the new sequence could be Skylab 1, Wet Workshop Launch, Skylab 2, Conrad and crew, Skylab 3, ATP, Skylab 4; Mattingly, and move the others back accordingly.

What say you Ron?


You need a shot with the Ares Core, less the Mission Module, MEM, and Apollo stack loitering near it, possibly with one ET in place and the other nearby, and an Apollo CSM watching over the operation.

The LM-1 patch could be inspiration for the Unmanned MEM mission.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/15/2015 02:44 AM
I like the one on the left a little more, cause it is more streamlined.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/15/2015 03:48 AM
Massive edit on page 8 of Skylab changes and Post Launch Events.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 02/15/2015 05:27 AM


But Ron, have you thought of sending photos of your work to Baxter?

I did it yesterday, in fact.  And a link to this thread.

Cool ! But where did you find Mr baxter e-mail, btw ?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mikes on 02/15/2015 09:26 AM
I have found a reference to something called "Slush Hydrogen" as a propellant in an S-IVB stage variant, the S-IVC.  Most this study is beyond me, but it may be a solution to the boil off of fuel during the mission.

Slush Hydrogen was also considered for the National Aerospace Plane

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19900004952.pdf
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/15/2015 12:09 PM
As I was planning some more Saturn variant construction, it occurred to me the Wet Skylab would only have had a docking adapter on the front and no ATM, so it would have looked more like Apollo 5 then Skylab.  And also no Heat Sink, at least in the was of Skylab.

I have my MS-II launch vehicle somewhat pieced together, but using an Airfix Saturn V kit.  The Airfix S-II will be the MS-II with its more detailed insulation modeling setting it apart from the Revell S-II which will be the 2nd Stage.  I will be making a new Shapeways nose for the Airfix kit as the S-IVB Adapter is integral to the part.  Unlike my Ares stack, it will use Shuttle SRBs instead of Titan IIIM SRMs.

Then, as I discussed above, I will model the Wet Skylab Launch vehicle like Apollo 5 and sacrifice another S-IV to be the orbital Skylab.

Edit:  But Wait!  Attached a picture of a conceptual Wet Workshop which shows an ATM.  I still don't think a IB could have lifted this though...

EDIT:  But wait!  This looks is a different design, so for fun we can add another Saturn IB launch placing this in orbit, also carrying the secret Military stuff for Mattingly's mission.  So the new sequence could be Skylab 1, Wet Workshop Launch, Skylab 2, Conrad and crew, Skylab 3, ATP, Skylab 4; Mattingly, and move the others back accordingly.

What say you Ron?


You need a shot with the Ares Core, less the Mission Module, MEM, and Apollo stack loitering near it, possibly with one ET in place and the other nearby, and an Apollo CSM watching over the operation.

The LM-1 patch could be inspiration for the Unmanned MEM mission.

I think the ATM would be on a separate launch.  I will add an Apollo 5-type Saturn 1B into the chart.  I do want to do some construction shots and tanking shots, which is why I need to build a tanker S-II stage.

I was looking for some items on the flights in the book last night, and remembered that the CSM on the MEM test flight was named New Jersey.  Also, they called this flight with the Iowa and New Jersey the D' mission, not the E'.  It replaced York's cancelled D cold soak mission.  Young's landing test was the E mission.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/15/2015 12:10 PM


But Ron, have you thought of sending photos of your work to Baxter?

I did it yesterday, in fact.  And a link to this thread.

Cool ! But where did you find Mr baxter e-mail, btw ?

He has a website with contact info: www.stephen-baxter.com
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/15/2015 12:19 PM

28 JUL 1973   Skylab 3        37      Military Skylab.  Ken Mattingly and 2 other Military astronauts.


I was thinking who these other two astronauts might be.  I was thinking they could be two former MOL Astronauts, and since Crippen is mentioned, one could have been him.  And Crip worked on Skylab support.  So maybe Truly for the other one? He was Skylab capcom.  And Crip and Truly were teamed for a MOL mission.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/15/2015 01:43 PM
Ron

Changed E' to D'

Changed Crippen's crew:  I like it.

I also gave Young his Apollo 15 crew for the MEM Trial.

I have tried to covert the timeline on page 8 into a table, but gave up.  I attached the new file here and there as well,  If someone wants to have a go at it, I'd appreciate it.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: the_other_Doug on 02/15/2015 03:15 PM
Ron

Changed E' to D'

Changed Crippen's crew:  I like it.

I also gave Young his Apollo 15 crew for the MEM Trial.

I have tried to covert the timeline on page 8 into a table, but gave up.  I attached the new file here and there as well,  If someone wants to have a go at it, I'd appreciate it.

That would be an interesting crew, since Young flew Apollos 10 and 16...  ;)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/15/2015 07:30 PM
I'm thinking about the commander for the cancelled D mission, and came up with Cernan, so Cernan, Gershon, York?

And the cycling in unflown Apollo crews into Moonlabs 2-4

Moonlab 2:  Shepard, Roosa, Mitchell
Moonlab 3:  Cernan, Evans, Schmidt
Moonlab 4:  Schweikert, Musgrave, Carr

Edit:  Changed "Gordon" to "Schweikart" "Brand" to "Musgrave"  "Brandt" to "McCandless".  This was the Backup Skylab 2 Crew

Then, if we really wanted to be ambitious, we could start cycling Shuttle crews into the regular Skylab Missions...
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/16/2015 12:36 AM
I doubt if they would have had those astronaut groups hired.  There weren't enough flights.  Don't forget the "Voyage" astronauts like Bleeker, who apparently had several Skylab missions.  But I really like the idea that these guys did get to the moon in this timeline.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/16/2015 01:08 AM
I need a higher resolution of the original photo, but here is Pad A, B and C.  D would be out of frame to the left.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/16/2015 02:48 AM
Way Cool Ron!

I'm starting to paint my MEM which has the shrouds and Retropack on it.

Sadly, the retropack doesn't detach, but the shrouds do.

So I am planning photo's of the MEM before descent

Then I will put the shrouds on the one with the landing gear down, but I will have the shrouds still on.

Perhaps you will be able to figure out a way to work your photo magic on them after I upload.  We can talk it about after I do so.  (It will be a little while).
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/16/2015 03:07 AM
I am happy to donate images of my beat up post landing MEM for photo magic too, if desired.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/17/2015 12:03 AM
Sure, guys, take some photos and send them to me!

I started working on a S-II Tanker.  It is kit bashed from a Revell S-II stage.  I put the S-1C tank top on the bottom, with the descent stage of a LEM on the bottom for propulsion.  On the top, I used the S-II stage handler part and inverted a Apollo SM onto it.  This docks with the previous build Ares MS-II refuel port.  And it fits perfectly.  Mike's nosecone will go on top of the tanker when it is placed on the Saturn VB for launch.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/17/2015 12:46 AM
Very Cool
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/17/2015 02:19 AM
Slight up date of the timeline, putting the Backup Skylab 2 Crew (Schweickart, Musgrave, McCandless) into Moonlab 4.  Also see up thread.

Edit:  Interesting enough, the back up crew for both Skylab 3 and 4 was Brand, Lenoir, Lind who we have flying Skylab 7.

Modeling the timeline and assignments is almost as much fun as building the models.  I wonder what Stephan Baxter would think of our work.  Any response Ron?

Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/17/2015 12:26 PM
No response yet.  I had another idea for a project, coming up with a ship design and logo for Star Trek:Explorer!

Which is what replaced Next Generation in this timeline.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/17/2015 01:01 PM
I don't know how we missed this, but on page 41, where York is looking at the Ares boosters in orbit, it states that the 9 Saturn VB launches took place over a five year period, and half were unmanned.  That means 4 or 5 construction crews went up with the boosters and ETs.  But 5 years?  Apollo N was in Dec 1980, launch in Mar1985, so there is no way this is right. Maybe 5 months.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/17/2015 01:44 PM
So, I have updated the Ares Launch Fact Sheet to make the first 4 assembly flights have crews.  The tankers stay unmanned.

Still no way this happened over 5 years.  The decision to go with Dana's plan wasn't even that old.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/18/2015 09:04 PM
I am happy to donate images of my beat up post landing MEM for photo magic too, if desired.

Well, this is a second attempt at putting your MEM on Mars.  Still trying to get a handle on the shadows, but this is looking better.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 02/19/2015 12:22 PM
Slight up date of the timeline, putting the Backup Skylab 2 Crew (Schweickart, Musgrave, McCandless) into Moonlab 4.  Also see up thread.

Edit:  Interesting enough, the back up crew for both Skylab 3 and 4 was Brand, Lenoir, Lind who we have flying Skylab 7.

Modeling the timeline and assignments is almost as much fun as building the models.  I wonder what Stephan Baxter would think of our work.  Any response Ron?



excellent !
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/19/2015 12:29 PM
I tried a different location, over a slight ridge, and tilted the MEM. I like this one better.

Edit:Added a flag for scale.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 02/19/2015 01:42 PM
Challenger in Endeavour crater.... the sweet irony !
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/19/2015 01:48 PM
Actually, this is Dalhousie's MEM and he named her Endeavour!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: tea monster on 02/19/2015 02:44 PM
That is some nice work from you guys!

Just listened to the audio play and the last bit where she wonders what would have been if we'd stayed in Earth orbit and 'Challenger' was just another space shuttle... sigh.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 02/19/2015 03:55 PM
Actually, this is Dalhousie's MEM and he named her Endeavour!

Oops ! Massive brain fart...
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/19/2015 05:33 PM
I re-drew the mission profile from the front of the book.  This fits my models.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/19/2015 06:31 PM
From the descriptions on page 301, I came up with this assembly procedure for the Ares.  Mike is building an Orbital Assembly Facility, so my sketch is just a place holder.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/19/2015 10:41 PM
This time I have a photo taken from the Moonlab of the approaching Soyuz in November 1980.
No models this time, just real photos and a quick manipulation.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/19/2015 11:12 PM
Actually, this is Dalhousie's MEM and he named her Endeavour!

Oops ! Massive brain fart...

:)

It's also Gusev Crater (Columbia Hills).

Hey, it's Friday here, brain farts allowed!

:D
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/21/2015 02:27 AM
It is interesting to consider how little information of Mars existing prior to the Baxter mission.

In the story the preceding missions

Mariner V flyby (1965)

Mariner 6 & 7 flybys (1969)

Mariner 9 and Mars 2 & 3 orbiters (1971)

 Mars 5 orbiter (implied) (1971)

Mars 4, 6 & 7 flybys (implied) (1973)

Mars 8 lander (1976)

Mars 8 orbiter (implied) (1976)

High resolution imaging Mariner orbiter studying landing site candidates (possibly film return?)

Other possible Soviet missions (no mention of Mars 9 in 1976 so that may have been a failure) in the 1978 1980, and 1983 windows.

Challenger landed on Mars with far less knowledge of what to expect than the Apollo astronauts.



Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/21/2015 02:58 AM
It is interesting to consider how little information of Mars existing prior to the Baxter mission.

In the story the preceding missions

Mariner V flyby (1965)

Mariner 6 & 7 flybys (1969)

Mariner 9 and Mars 2 & 3 orbiters (1971)

 Mars 5 orbiter (implied) (1971)

Mars 4, 6 & 7 flybys (implied) (1973)

Mars 8 lander (1976)

Mars 8 orbiter (implied) (1976)

High resolution imaging Mariner orbiter studying landing site candidates (possibly film return?)

Other possible Soviet missions (no mention of Mars 9 in 1976 so that may have been a failure) in the 1978 1980, and 1983 windows.

Challenger landed on Mars with far less knowledge of what to expect than the Apollo astronauts.

Not only Mars, but the rest of the solar system.  No Pioneers or Voyager to the outer planets or even Viking to Mars.  I think Mariner 9 was the last mission mentioned for the US.  I doubt Mariner 10 went to Venus.  Everything was cancelled and the money put into Ares.

In fact, I think the only probe the US sent to Venus was launched by Ares on it's flyby.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/21/2015 05:57 AM
It is interesting to consider how little information of Mars existing prior to the Baxter mission.

In the story the preceding missions

Mariner V flyby (1965)

Mariner 6 & 7 flybys (1969)

Mariner 9 and Mars 2 & 3 orbiters (1971)

That's correct.

Everything got cancelled to feed Ares.  Which is probably what would have happened.  But I find it hard to imagine that knowledge of the surface from one landing site (Mars 8) would have been deemed adequate.  I would have thought that Viking might have been re-jigged into several small landers to gain more experience of the surface, especially the engineering properties, bit like Surveyor.

 Mars 5 orbiter (implied) (1971)

Mars 4, 6 & 7 flybys (implied) (1973)

Mars 8 lander (1976)

Mars 8 orbiter (implied) (1976)

High resolution imaging Mariner orbiter studying landing site candidates (possibly film return?)

Other possible Soviet missions (no mention of Mars 9 in 1976 so that may have been a failure) in the 1978 1980, and 1983 windows.

Challenger landed on Mars with far less knowledge of what to expect than the Apollo astronauts.

Not only Mars, but the rest of the solar system.  No Pioneers or Voyager to the outer planets or even Viking to Mars.  I think Mariner 9 was the last mission mentioned for the US.  I doubt Mariner 10 went to Venus.  Everything was cancelled and the money put into Ares.

In fact, I think the only probe the US sent to Venus was launched by Ares on it's flyby.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/21/2015 06:12 AM
A rough idea of what was (and was not) known is Greeley's Mars landing site catalog (1990).  See http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19900018291.pdf  Note that Mangala (which isn't considered that exciting now) gets no less than three mentions (sites 27, 38 and 39). 

Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/21/2015 01:05 PM
I did a quick read of the book, and during the 1975 launch window, when the Soviets sent their lander, it is mentioned that the US sent a Mariner to map landing site in the equatorial regions.  This must be an alternate Mariner 10 that went to Mars instead of Mercury and Venus,
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/21/2015 02:01 PM
I submit there was a lot going on in NASA not mentioned in the book, or only in passing.  36 Skylab flights and 5 Moonlab flights costs a lot of money.

The lack of information about Mars recon flights is not surprising as they take 6 months to get there and are only launched every two years as opposed to 3-5 day trips and every two week windows.

The more I read the book, the more I like it, but it is not a complete history of the time.  It needs a chapter on unmanned reconnaissance missions, which we know Natalie would have been interested in.

And, of course, there are errors, like Dana's first flight was on Moonlab and his second was Apollo-N (which was preceded by at least one test flight and more likely two).

perhaps we need two new books:
Voyage:  Return and Beyond
Mars or Bust:  The History of NASA's Human Space Flight Program 1972 - 1986

Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/21/2015 02:20 PM
There may have been more Moonlab flights, since Stone mention them as ongoing during his discussion of food on Ares in 1985. "We are basically having much the same kind of food that the workshop crews, in lunar and Earth orbits, are eating right now."

this is at MET 4 days 21 hours.

So still more Saturn V have been launch in addition to the Saturn VBs.  At least one a year. I assume that each can bring logistics modules to the station.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/21/2015 02:37 PM
Yeah, that's certainly true, given Moonlab 5 was in 80, so one was probably launched in 1981, 1982, 1983, and early 1984.  But none from AUG 84 through MARCH 85 as the Ares campaign was hot and heavy.

After Ares launch, I think Skylab continues, because I think its mentioned that upon return to Earth Orbit, they could be rescued by a Skylab crew or go there, if they were unable to reenter with their own Apollo.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 02/22/2015 10:38 AM
Look at this !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrbvM5HuQRE
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/22/2015 12:01 PM
Yep, seeing that video is what inspired me to re-read the book and start this project.  He has some difference, such as shuttle ETs, but it looks great. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 02/23/2015 06:27 AM
A rough idea of what was (and was not) known is Greeley's Mars landing site catalog (1990).  See http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19900018291.pdf  Note that Mangala (which isn't considered that exciting now) gets no less than three mentions (sites 27, 38 and 39). 



And it loks as if Mangala valles was considered as a potential landing site for Mars Surveyor 2001 (Mars Polar Lander ill-fated twin brother that was stored in 2000 and later returned as Phoenix in 2007).
Mangala unfortunately was not selected (anyway, Dalhousie, why isn't Mangala considered exciting nowadays ?)

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20000112986.pdf
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/23/2015 08:08 AM
A rough idea of what was (and was not) known is Greeley's Mars landing site catalog (1990).  See http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19900018291.pdf  Note that Mangala (which isn't considered that exciting now) gets no less than three mentions (sites 27, 38 and 39). 



And it loks as if Mangala valles was considered as a potential landing site for Mars Surveyor 2001 (Mars Polar Lander ill-fated twin brother that was stored in 2000 and later returned as Phoenix in 2007).
Mangala unfortunately was not selected (anyway, Dalhousie, why isn't Mangala considered exciting nowadays ?)

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20000112986.pdf

Good question, Mangala is still a very interesting place, it is just that interests are now more refined.  Mangala was chosen because it is an outflow channel and studying it would give us an idea about the history of liquid water on Mars.  Much the same reasoning was chosen for the Ares Vallis landing site for Mars Pathfinder in 1996.

We know much more about Mars now than in 1984 (or 1998, when the 2001 lander mission was being considered).  Now sites are being targeted because they contain mineral and potentially chemical records of water activity on early Mars, not just gross morphology of water activity.  We are also now interested in sites with good organic preservation, or even that are potentially habitable. Mangla isn't that interesting for these reasons.

In 1984 there were no instruments that could map Mars mineralogy from orbit and even in 1998 very few (some data from ISM on Phobos 2, there was also TES on Mars Global Surveyor, an instrument that could be best described as almost useless).

For an Ares type mission today we would land somewhere like Gale.  We did not have the knowledge to pick Gale in the novel's scenario (or even in real life until after 2001).  All IMHO of course!

Hope this helps.





Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/23/2015 11:59 AM
Talking with Mike last night, I am assuming the Mariner sent to Mars in the 1975 Viking window would basically have the same resolution as the Viking orbiter.  It concentrated on equatorial areas for landings sites. So, if you want to see what York and NASA knew of Mars before they went, look at those photos.  It is also possible they got photos from the Soviets.

But York wanted Mangala, she was part of the team that chose it. And she influenced the choice.

(I almost feel like this actually happened, the more we discuss it!)

Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 02/23/2015 01:38 PM
More on Mangala Valles as seen by Viking (or, in that timeline, Mariner 10  :P )
https://www.google.fr/search?q=%22mangala+valles%22%22viking%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=IDvrVKCYBqaY7gbFpIFI#q=%22mangala+valles%22viking

A recurrent critic against Voyage is that parts of it were ripped off from (our universe) existing documents (I personaly think Baxter did it on purpose to make his alt-history closer from our universe)

A spectacular example... (Erosion by catastrophic floods on Mars and Earth)
Google search
https://www.google.fr/search?q=%22The+large+Martian+channels,+especially+Kasei,+Ares,+Tiu,+Simud,+and+Mangala+Valles%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=Oj_rVJmLK9LhaOysgcgM
Bring this
https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/70009751
and this
http://www.rulit.me/books/voyage-read-172472-39.html

Natalie work can be read here
http://www.mars.asu.edu/christensen/classdocs/Baker_ErrosionbyCata_icarus_74.pdf

 ;D

(In fact I "sampled" Voyage many times and found other examples like this. For example the scarying, cold medical description of poor Ben Priest radiation poisoning is a rip off of a real-world medical example  :o except the poor shmo survived its injuries. I found the medical record on google book.)

EDIT: it was a book on Chernobyl.  :(  Ben Priest medical condition is in fact a mix of two unfortunate "liquidators"
https://www.google.fr/webhp?ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=8ULrVKLEL8GY7gavyoBA#q=%22nauseated,+chilled,+and+agitated,+with+glassy+eyes%22&tbm=bks
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/23/2015 05:05 PM
Yes, the book is full of stuff like that.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/23/2015 06:17 PM
Yep, when you read alternate history that includes real people and situations from the real world, it makes it seam more plausible.  Otherwise, it becomes science fiction. 

That is why I can build these models using existing models, they are based in reality.  Mangala was looked at for a landing site, so it makes sense to land there.  Priest's wounds are based on real radiation wounds, so it seams much more believable, and tragic.

I hope to have the tanker ready tonight to photograph and add to a launch pad.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: the_other_Doug on 02/23/2015 06:32 PM
...Mangala was chosen because it is an outflow channel and studying it would give us an idea about the history of liquid water on Mars.  Much the same reasoning was chosen for the Ares Vallis landing site for Mars Pathfinder in 1996.

And, just as an aside, the same reasoning also applied to the selection of the Chryse landing site for the Viking 1 lander.  The Chryse and Ares Vallis outflow channels are related -- if you look closely at the maps, you can convince yourself that both were made by the same catastrophic flood event.  Separate lobes of the catastrophic flood waters, so to speak.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/23/2015 07:11 PM
Talking with Mike last night, I am assuming the Mariner sent to Mars in the 1975 Viking window would basically have the same resolution as the Viking orbiter.  It concentrated on equatorial areas for landings sites. So, if you want to see what York and NASA knew of Mars before they went, look at those photos.  It is also possible they got photos from the Soviets.

But York wanted Mangala, she was part of the team that chose it. And she influenced the choice.

(I almost feel like this actually happened, the more we discuss it!)

I don't think Viking really got imagery of sufficient resolution to meet the requirements  of a landing, the best was a few 10s of metres.  I have assumed that the high resolution Mariner was much better, which in that time frame may have required film return (this was discussed in the literature, as I recall) 

The book does describe Soviet Mars lander data, I would assume there was matching orbiters as well.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: tea monster on 02/23/2015 09:40 PM
The graphics look very good for Orbiter.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/23/2015 11:01 PM
...Mangala was chosen because it is an outflow channel and studying it would give us an idea about the history of liquid water on Mars.  Much the same reasoning was chosen for the Ares Vallis landing site for Mars Pathfinder in 1996.

And, just as an aside, the same reasoning also applied to the selection of the Chryse landing site for the Viking 1 lander.  The Chryse and Ares Vallis outflow channels are related -- if you look closely at the maps, you can convince yourself that both were made by the same catastrophic flood event.  Separate lobes of the catastrophic flood waters, so to speak.

Although there is no obvious fluvial modification at the Viking 1 site, unlike the at Pathfinder, either in orbital or lander scale imagery. If anything the Viking 1 site looks more volcanic, with possible mare-like wrinkle ridges (although such features over compressional faults can form in any material). The closest outflow channels to the Viking 1 site is Maja Vallis about 80 km to the SW,  Ares Vallis is more than 800 km to the ESE, so theb two outflow systems appear un-related.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/24/2015 02:58 AM
February, 23, 1985, the final tanker rolls out to LC39B.  It will launch in two weeks.  The Ares will rollout a few weeks later.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/24/2015 03:03 AM
Way cool looking Ron.  the pace quickens...
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/24/2015 03:18 AM
Late in February, 1985, the 3rd tanker seen in orbit, using it's radar to lock on to the Ares Booster in orbit. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/24/2015 03:43 AM
A few orbits later, the tanker has docked with the Ares Booster and begins the transfer of fuel and oxidizer.  After the transfer is complete and the tanker undocks, it will burn up in the atmosphere.  Then the Ares stack will point it's nose towards the sun to reduce boil off and wait for the next tanker launch.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/24/2015 06:09 PM
Three tankers on the pads ready for launch. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: RichO on 02/24/2015 07:17 PM
Man that's really cool lookin'
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/25/2015 01:46 AM
While Ron's been working his photo magic, I was tring to flesh out the complete schedule of launches during the books span.  There were Skylab flights (37), Moonlab Flights (10), Apollo -N (+1 test flight not shown), and the various Ares launches (13), for a total of 61!

This is all based on statements in the book.

In 90 days, from 21 DEC 84 until the Ares 21 March 1985 launch, there were 9 launches of Saturn V's.  We think this is the longest the assembly sequence could take and not have boil off issues.  4 Pads, 3 mobile launchers, and 2 crawlers.  It would have been a herculean task. 

So here is a schedule I think does the job.

I bet there would have been some tired astronauts in the program.

we started with a total of 117.  During this time, 44 left the program.  The class of 1978 was sorely needed, but we did not recruit any classes after that.

we thought Moonlab 10 would be the last moonlab, while expecting there would be Skylabs launched until Ares return to Earth in NOV 86, so probably 5 more.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: tea monster on 02/25/2015 06:44 AM
I love the model shots. The lighting looks especially good.  How are you setting up your models for shooting?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/25/2015 11:50 AM
Well, thanks!
It deepens on where I am putting the model.  If it is a launch pad, I set it up so the shadows match the actual Saturn V in the photo.  And take a photo from the same angle.  Since most are in daylight, I set it on a small table next to my patio doors and let the natural sun light it.   The space ones are just shot with over head lighting, since I have only put them in daylight orbit so far.  I don't have any fancy equipment light spot lights to do night shots on the pad yet, but I have wanted to do that.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/27/2015 12:49 AM
Long range photo of SRB seperation from a Saturn VB.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/28/2015 01:12 PM
Taking a break from Mars today.  Here is my AMT Mr. Spock model that I built when I was 12 or so.  It has a few missing parts, but it is in surprising good shape.  That would be thanks to my late Grandma who knew how much Star Trek and Spock meant to me.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/02/2015 11:35 AM
A few photos of events from 30 years ago this week.  The Ares-Saturn VB was rolled out of the VAB to Pad 39A.  It began the 3 mile journey to the pad early March 8, 1985.  after about 8 hours, it was hard down at the pad awaiting preparations for launch on March 21.


Edit:Replaced picture of VAB with Bicentennial Logo on it.
Edit: Replaced same picture and added a tiny Saturn VB on Pad B
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/02/2015 06:26 PM
Saturn VB on launch pad 39A.

Edit: Update picture with new lightning mast.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/02/2015 06:28 PM
Mobile Service Structure being moved to surround Ares-Saturn.


Edit: Updated picture with new lightning mast.



   
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/04/2015 10:35 AM
I took two of my favorite photos and created some vintage (as in 1985) lithos from them.  I will print them out at a print shop next week.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: RichO on 03/04/2015 06:05 PM
Very  cool, Ron!!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 03/04/2015 07:42 PM
Quote
A few photos of events from 30 years ago this week.

Can't believe it was thirty years ago this spring. I can't really remember a lot of the Mars mission since I was three years old when it launched, and four years when they landed, damn it. My dad told me I was glued to the TV screen that day of March 1986, an excited little brat I was.

You americans had Walter Cronkite (and Dan Rather) we had Albert Ducrocq, live on TF1 http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Ducrocq His voice famously (nearly) broke as he said "L'homme est sur Mars" echoing the same sentence he had pronounced seventeen years before (l'homme est sur la lune)

(in our universe my first space fever was in August 1989, aged 7, when Voyager come close of Neptune. But obviously here Voyager never exist in the first place. And I'm spoiled twice - missing the lunar landing by 13 years and being too young to remember Mars. Gosh.)  :(

P.S I have to quietly read all 13 pages of this thread and download all the stuff there. Lot of great work to be stored on the HD.

EDIT: done ! I have know plenty of Voyage stuff - Ronpur modelling, the starship modeler model, and the you tube video.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/04/2015 08:33 PM
Thanks Archibald!  It really means a lot to me that there are people who are enjoying these tributes to the book.  I am busy working on launch day photos, too.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/04/2015 10:31 PM
To illustrate the hectic pace of the final months leading up to the launch, the Ares vehicle rolls out while the final Saturn VB tanker awaits it's launch on Pad B.

Edit: Updated picture with new lightning mast.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 03/04/2015 11:12 PM
We need a render of The first 4 vehicles on the pads, the MSII, MSIV, and the two ETs.  Then, a view showing the MSII lifting off with the other vehicles on the pad, kind of like the attached.

Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/04/2015 11:28 PM
I know!! I am working on it, but not really coming out right yet.  I found this to base it on, but I need to rig up the models and add pads.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 03/04/2015 11:47 PM
Or a view with a Saturn IB lift off  and the pads would be cool
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/06/2015 02:19 AM
Trying something different.  In the book, the Ares launch suits are described as orange and details that sound similar to shuttle launch and entry suits.  So, I took a photo of an astronaut, Bonnie Dunbar in this case, and swapped out the actress who plays Natalie York in the Voyage audio.  I added one of my Ares patches, removed the NASA "meatball" and added a NASA worm on the shoulder.  This is first attempt at working with photos of people.  If I can find good photos of the actors who played Stone and Gershon, I will do the entire crew.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 03/06/2015 11:35 AM
great, really GREAT !
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: MATTBLAK on 03/06/2015 08:21 PM
May I suggest LeVar Burton as Ralph Gershon? Or Charlie Bolden... ;)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/07/2015 02:23 AM
Here is my base image for LC39 with 4 pads!!
Have add rockets when I get some.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 03/07/2015 04:08 AM
Wow.  If only it rea;;y looked that way.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/07/2015 12:36 PM
It is a shame that in the years since, they let pads C and D rot away into the swamp. ;)

I will have to add the launching rocket to Pad D, other wise, it will just block the other pads.  I can find very few photos showing more than one pad and enough room to add more.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/10/2015 01:58 PM
30 years ago today, on March 10, 1985, the final tanker was launched to the Ares Booster stack in orbit from Pad 39B at the Jacqueline B. Kennedy Space Center.  That left one final Saturn VB launch, with the Ares crews 11 days later on March 21.  Mankind was just one more step away from it's destiny on Mars.

Edit: Updated picture with new lightning mast.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/10/2015 03:04 PM
Several hours later, the autonomous docking system of the tanker has acquired the Ares Booster for it's final approach.

An exterior camera on the Ares Booster also tracks the tanker.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 03/10/2015 03:14 PM
These are very cool Ron.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 03/10/2015 04:29 PM
I'm very tempted to create a powerpoint with the pictures and Simple minds "Don't you forget about me" as background music.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/10/2015 05:05 PM
That would be amazing.  I am working on 3 more launch photos, plus two I haven't posted yet.  I am waiting until March 21 for that.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/13/2015 03:01 AM
I realized the picture in post #241 with the VAB showed Pad 39B and it should have a Saturn VB tanker on it.  So it does now!  A tiny Saturn VB!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/13/2015 01:28 PM
It seams like every time I flip through this book, I find something I have missed.  Now it is two lunar module engines on the MS-II used for course corrections.  I have several extra LMs around, but I noticed their engines were very close to the size of these extra OMS engines.  I glue them onto a little block of plastic, and then covered the entire aft end of the MS-II in thermal foil....otherwise know as chrome plumbers tape.  The fuel tanks for the engines would be beneath that. 

I also added some camera pods.  The most important voyage in Human History is sure to be well documented!  Two aft cameras and a pod on the interstage that has three different views.

I will have to update the rendezvous view from the tanker, now.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/14/2015 10:01 PM
Actor Rolf Saxon voiced Astronaut Phil Stone in the BBC audio of Voyage.  Here is Astronaut Phil Stone before his Moonlab flight.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Bob Shaw on 03/14/2015 10:13 PM
Great work, Ron - and here's an idea (if you have time): at least some of the LUT cranes should have had an ASTP style pole on it, for the same reason it was there in our 1975. Any of the 'instantaneous' rendezvous missions would have needed one, and I'm sure adding such a detail would be trivial!

(ducks and runs)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/14/2015 10:36 PM
Ah, that is true.  I will have to take a look for that.  I also realize that I would really need an entirely new LUT and MLP because these Apollo-era ones would be way too heavy with a Saturn VB with 4 SRBs strapped on.  But it really looks cool!!!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/14/2015 10:51 PM
Here we go!  I like this because it helps give you the sense that it isn't in "our" universe!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/14/2015 11:27 PM
Thanks, Bob, I went back and updated the previous pictures!  And I am work to update the ones for next weekend, too!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 03/15/2015 01:07 AM
Bob, I don't understand the connection between the "ASTP Pole" and an instantaneous rendezvous.  I always thought it was lightning protection.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/15/2015 01:16 AM
Bob, I don't understand the connection between the "ASTP Pole" and an instantaneous rendezvous.  I always thought it was lightning protection.

That went right past me when I read it.  Good question.
(found it: See the end of page 3 and beginning of page four of this document) You don't want lightning to damage anything when you have to launch on March 21!

BTW, I forgot Phil Stone is bald....
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 03/15/2015 01:53 AM
Interesting, but all our launches would be in plane and not require instantaneous rendezvous, except maybe the Ares Launch, but it would be critical only due to the Mars Injection Burn.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/15/2015 10:53 AM
It still gives better protection, but most launches were in the winter, not really lightning season, but we still get storms year round.  But better safe than sorry, there was a tight launch cadence to maintain.  Since it was there in the shuttle era, it fits with me using the NASA worm instead of the meatball, and looks just different enough.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 03/15/2015 04:52 PM
I'm not disputing the need for lightning protection, we definitely need that.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/15/2015 05:44 PM
Yes, we would both be aware of that need!  LOL. 

And I just think it looks cool!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Bob Shaw on 03/15/2015 06:25 PM
Interesting, but all our launches would be in plane and not require instantaneous rendezvous, except maybe the Ares Launch, but it would be critical only due to the Mars Injection Burn.

Would all Ares elements not be co-planar with each other once orbited, but not in-plane at launch due to the length of time between successive launches, which would allow the launch site's axial tilt to change?

Just asking, this is something I'd never previously considered as an issue. Perhaps the Saturn Vb would have had sufficient excess capacityt to allow a post-launch dog-leg in any case...
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/15/2015 08:30 PM
All of the elements were launch to be placed in orbit as close to the Skylab Workshop, so as to allow assembly crews to work from there. 

Mike and Bob will have to tell me what that means as far an in-plane orbit would be.

I assume this orbit would allow a Trans Mars Injection burn?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 03/16/2015 01:01 AM
In the opening, the launch commentator states the window is due to the need "to be in plane with the cluster to enable the docking, is imposing a tight window on today's launch."

On one of the night shuttle launches, we saw the ISS go directly overhead, looking like it was smack dab on top of the launch pad. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Bob Shaw on 03/16/2015 06:48 PM
Interesting, but all our launches would be in plane and not require instantaneous rendezvous, except maybe the Ares Launch, but it would be critical only due to the Mars Injection Burn.

Would all Ares elements not be co-planar with each other once orbited, but not in-plane at launch due to the length of time between successive launches, which would allow the launch site's axial tilt to change?



I got this wrong.

The Earth doesn't wobble about in space, as I realised last night. I came at this from a *very* wrong direction!

Now, where were we...?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 03/16/2015 09:57 PM
All of the elements were launch to be placed in orbit as close to the Skylab Workshop, so as to allow assembly crews to work from there. 

Mike and Bob will have to tell me what that means as far an in-plane orbit would be.

I assume this orbit would allow a Trans Mars Injection burn?

Probably a lot lower inclination, I suspect.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/17/2015 11:38 AM
Yes, this is the ground track for the MER launch.  It is a much different inclination than what a useful Skylab would be.  I am not an expert on orbital mechanics.  So I don't know if a mission to Mars could be launch from the Skylab orbit.  And I know it would have been impossible to travel from one orbit to the other if Ares was assemble in this orbit and Skylab crew was used to assist.  We maybe just using crew on the assembly flights to be the sole construction crews.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 03/17/2015 06:42 PM
Another difference is MER was a direct injection to Mars, as all of our Mars Probes have been.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/17/2015 06:48 PM
I am just gonna keep building rocket models and take pictures, and let some one else worry about orbits, lol.  I have several items ready for the 21st, and will hope to have a few more ready. 
I need to do a few more for the TMI on the 22nd as well.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 03/17/2015 07:18 PM
Good Plan, Ron...
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/18/2015 02:10 AM
I dug out my 30 year old NY Times with the article on the upcoming mission!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 03/18/2015 09:57 AM
Since the Moon and Mars are both in the ecliptic, I suggest the orbital plane would be similar to Apollo parking orbits.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/18/2015 09:31 PM
I have been enjoying my day off taking photos and working on models, while watching Star Trek.  :D

Here is two I did today, the rest stay hidden until the 21st. 

Both are revisions of previous photos, which I needed to do after changes to the model.  The video still from the tanker approach and the docked tanker and Ares Booster stack. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/20/2015 03:15 PM
Historical weather from the Weather Underground for March 21, 1985 for Titusville, FL.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KTIX/1985/3/21/DailyHistory.html?req_city=Cocoa&req_state=FL&req_statename=Florida&reqdb.zip=32922&reqdb.magic=1&reqdb.wmo=99999

Would the wind have scrubbed? It looks like at 9:37, it was not as windy as later in the day.

Edit: Shuttle had a LCC for wind of 39 MPH, it would be OK!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/20/2015 07:06 PM
I also have this report on Merritt Island that has similar temps, but greater visibility(9 miles).

http://www.almanac.com/weather/history/FL/Merritt%20Island/1985-03-21
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 03/20/2015 08:58 PM
We need a picture of the Ares lit up by searchlights!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/21/2015 03:16 AM
Morning dawns on March 21, 1985, 30 years ago.  A slightly overcast morning soon would give way to a "It is typically hot, humid Florida weather here, on this historic day, Thursday, March 21, 1985."
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/21/2015 03:18 AM
"Astronaut Stone reports “It feels good.”
T minus thirty seconds.
We are just a few seconds away from switching on the redundant sequence. This is the automatic system for engine cutoff.
T minus twenty-seven seconds and counting.
We have go for redundant sequence start.
T minus twenty seconds and counting. Sound-suppression system fired. Solid Rocket Boosters armed.
T minus fifteen, fourteen, thirteen.
T minus ten, nine, eight.
Main engine start."
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/21/2015 03:22 AM
"The Saturn VB was inching its way upward past the launch tower, almost skittishly, its automated controls swiveling its five first-stage engines to correct for wind shear. Right, left, forward, back, in a series of spasmodic jerks hard enough to bruise her.
No simulation had even hinted at the violence. It was like riding out of an explosion.
“Access arm,” Stone called. “Clear of the tower.”
John Young, Houston capcom for the launch, came on line.
“Ares, Houston. Copy. You are clear of the tower.”"
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/21/2015 03:24 AM
"“Houston, we have a good roll program,” Stone said.
“Roger the roll.”
The Saturn was arcing over the Florida coast, toward the Atlantic.
Down there on the beaches, she knew, children had written huge good luck messages into the Florida sand. GODSPEED ARES. York looked up and to her right, toward the tiny square window there. But there was nothing to see. They were cocooned; the boost protective cover, a solid cone, lay over the Command Module, blocking out the daylight."


(Zoom in on this one, and you can see the tiny Saturn VB)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/21/2015 03:26 AM
"Stone said, “Thirty-five thousand feet. Going through Mach one point nine. SRB combustion chamber pressure down to fifty pounds per square inch.”
“Copy,” John Young said from the ground. “You are go for SRB separation.”
“Rog.”
She heard a faint, muffled bang; the cabin shuddered, rattling her against her restraints. Separation squibs had fired, pushing the exhausted solid boosters away from the main stack. She felt a dip in the thrust; but then the acceleration of the MS-IC’s central liquid boosters picked up again, and she was pressed back into her seat.
“Roger on the sep,” Young said.
“Smooth as glass, John.”
The solid boosters would be falling away like matchsticks, dribbling smoke and flames. The strap-on solid boosters were the most visible enhancement of the VB over the core Saturn V design; with their help the VB was capable of carrying twice the payload of the V to Earth orbit."
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/21/2015 03:27 AM
"“Three minutes,” Stone said. “Altitude forty-three miles, downrange seventy miles.”
“Coming up on staging,” Gershon said. “Stand by for the train wreck.”
Right on schedule the first-stage engines shut down.
The acceleration vanished.
It was as if they were sitting in a catapult. She was thrown forward, toward the instrument panel, and slammed up against her restraints. The canvas straps hauled her back into her seat, and then she was shoved forward again.
The first-stage engines had compressed the whole stack like an accordion; when the engines cut, the accordion just stretched out and rebounded. It was incredibly violent.
Just like a train wreck, in fact. Another thing they didn’t tell me about in the sims.
She heard the clatter of explosive bolts, blowing away the dying MS-IC. And there were more bangs, thumps in her back transmitted through her couch: small ullage rockets, firing to settle the liquid oxygen and hydrogen in the huge second-stage tanks.
Vibration returned as the second-stage engines ignited, and she was shoved back into her seat."
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/21/2015 03:29 AM
"“Copy, John. Preparing for NC Two…”
The crew had arrived in orbit with half the Ares cluster: their Apollo Command and Service Modules, the Mars Excursion Module — the MEM — and the Mission Module, their habitat for the journey. The rest of the cluster — the main injection booster and its huge fuel tanks — had already been placed in orbit and assembled, ready for them to dock with it.
The Mission Module was a squat cylinder, with the Apollo a slim, silvery cylinder-cone attached to its front, and the MEM — a fatter, truncated cone — stuck on the back. Fixed to the base of the MEM’s shroud was an Orbital Maneuvering Module, a fat doughnut fitted with a modified Apollo Service Module propulsion system. The OMM would be discarded before they docked with the booster cluster. But first Stone had to use the OMM in a series of four burns, to chase the booster cluster around the sky."
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/21/2015 03:32 AM
"York watched the cluster roll with silent grace past her window.
The booster cluster was squat, pregnant with fuel. Its heart was a fat MS-II booster, a Saturn second stage, modified to serve as an orbital injector. Fixed to the front of the MS-II was an MS-IVB, a modified Saturn third stage, a narrower cylinder. To either side of the MS-II were fixed the two External Tanks, fat, silvery cylinders as long and as wide as the MS-II stage itself. The supplementary tanks carried more than two million pounds of liquid oxygen and hydrogen, propellant Ares would need to break clear of Earth orbit.

She could see the great flaps of the cluster’s solar panels, folded up against the sides of the MS-IVB stage like wings; the panels would be unfurled when Ares was safely launched on its trajectory to Mars. There was the bold red UNITED STATES stenciled against the side of the MS-II, and the finer lettering along the long thin protective flaps masking the solar panels, and the NASA logo; and she could make out the support struts and attachment pins which held the External Tanks in place against the flanks of the MS-II, and the gold-gleaming mouths of the MS-II’s four J-2S engines, upgrades of the engines which had pushed Apollo to the Moon."
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/21/2015 03:35 AM
"To assemble this much mass in Earth orbit had taken all of nine Saturn VB flights over the last five months — half of them manned. The booster stages and their tanks had been flown up and assembled more or less empty, and then pumped full of gas from tanker modules. The cluster was an exercise in enhanced Apollo-Saturn technology, of course, and the essence of its design went all the way back to the 1960s. But NASA had had to develop a raft of new techniques to achieve it: the assembly in orbit of heavy components, the long-term storage of supercold fuels, in-orbit fueling.
Sailing over the Earth, brilliantly lit by the unimpeded sunlight, the booster stack was complex, massive, new-looking, perfect, like a huge, jeweled model. Once they’d docked, she wouldn’t see the cluster from outside again like this for a year. Not until, she realized with a jolt, she receded from it in the MEM, in orbit around Mars."


All quotes from Voyage by Stephen Baxter.  If you haven't read it, READ IT!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: ChrisPBacon on 03/21/2015 07:02 AM
Had to make an account to share this with ya guys  ;)

Been following the thread for a couple months now after finishing the book.  I decided to give a video/recreation of the mission a shot for the 30th anniversary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmOngtvYrzc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmOngtvYrzc)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 03/21/2015 08:54 AM
Oh that's really an amazing work ! Kudos, now Voyage has been done in both Orbiter and Kerbal space simulators.  ;D
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: MATTBLAK on 03/21/2015 09:38 AM
That's really good!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/21/2015 11:53 AM
Chris P, that is fantastic!  What a treat to wake up to!   You have done what I dreamed of and put the models into motion!!  I am truly thrilled to see them come to life.  When I saw the NASA worm and flag on the silver Mission Module looking exactly like my model, I was so excited.  And the same when I saw the booster stack in orbit, with the same markings on the MS-II. 

I really hope Stephen Baxter gets to read my email someday, and finds his way here to see what a few dedicated fans of his book have done.  We want a manned mission to Mars so bad, we had to recreate history to have had one.

To quote Buzz Aldrin "Get your ass to Mars!"

Or would that be Joe Muldoon?  ;)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/21/2015 01:13 PM
Here is a better photo of Ares in spotlight.  I didn't not even realize the first Apollo 11 photo I downloaded as the base was in reverse!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/21/2015 01:46 PM
"Mission Elapsed Time [Day/Hr:Min:Sec] Plus 001/13:45:57
“You are go for TOI,” Capcom Bob Crippen said. “One minute thirty.”
“Thank you,” Gershon replied.
Stone said, “Go for ET hydrogen pressurization.”
“Confirm.”
York began closing switches that would raise the temperature inside the booster’s two great External Tanks. Liquid hydrogen would boil and evaporate, and the resulting gas would force liquid propellant through the feed pipes and into the combustion chambers of the MS-II.
“Ares, you are go for the burn,” Crippen said.
Stone set the “master arm” switch to ON, and York could see him checking over the rest of the instrument panel. Guidance control was set to primary; thrust control was on automatic; the craft was in the correct attitude; the engine gimbals were enabled, so that the nozzles could swivel like eyeballs in their sockets to direct the craft.
Eight seconds before ignition, York felt a push at her back. Ullage: small rockets firing around the base of the stack, settling the propellants before the main burn.
There was a small button marked PROCEED under the screen. Stone reached out a gloved finger, and pressed the button.
Gershon counted down: “Five. Four…”
York braced herself.
There was a distant rumble, carried through the stack, as the MS-II’s four huge engines ignited, three hundred feet away from her. The acceleration was low, almost gentle, pushing her into her couch with a soft pressure across her chest and limbs."
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/21/2015 01:49 PM
"“ETs depleted,” York reported. “Ready for sep.”
“Roger,” Stone said.
More than two million pounds of fuel, a treasure that had taken five launches to haul up to Earth orbit, had burned off in sixteen minutes.
“Three, two, one. Fire.”
Outside, pyrotechnics would be severing the securing bolts and frames at the top and bottom of each tank, and guillotines should be slicing across the wide feed pipes which had carried fuel from the tanks into the MS-II’s belly. York half expected to hear a rattle of bolts, muffled clangs, like the staging during the Saturn VB launch, but she heard and felt nothing.
“ET sep is good,” she said.
“Confirm ET sep,” said Crippen.
“Hey, how about that.” Gershon was looking out of his window. “I can see a tank.”"
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/21/2015 01:53 PM
Next up for Ares, as it climbed from Earth's gravity well, would be the transposition and redocking of the CSM to the Mission Module.

The Moon was a New Moon on March 21, so I showed it that way, with the farside visible as Ares flies past it, heading towards it's flyby of Venus.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/21/2015 02:34 PM
Once inside the Mission Module, Endeavour, the crew quickly set up the spacecraft for the long voyage to Mars.  Solar panels and high gain antenna were extended.  They would see nothing but stars out the tiny picture window until their flyby of Venus, September 8, 1985.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 03/21/2015 06:42 PM
Nice job Ron
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/22/2015 03:12 AM
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: roma847 on 03/22/2015 05:59 AM
Hey Ron, that looks really cool! (http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/goodjob.gif)

(http://scaleworld.forenworld.net/images/smilies/hallo.gif)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/22/2015 10:43 AM
Hey Ron, that looks really cool! (http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/goodjob.gif)

(http://scaleworld.forenworld.net/images/smilies/hallo.gif)

Thanks, Manfred! :)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/25/2015 10:50 PM
 "Mission Elapsed Time [Day/Hr:Min:Sec] Plus 005/01:42:11
“Ares, Houston, thank you. Ah, Ralph, Phil, Natalie, could we get you all in one shot for a moment, please?”
Stone looked puzzled. “Say again, Houston.”
“If we can have you all in the camera’s field of view for a couple of minutes.”
Stone drifted close to York, who stayed by the table; and Gershon floated down behind them, facing the camera.
“Ares, Houston,” Crippen said. “Just about now, ah, at five plus one plus forty-two” — one hour into the mission’s fifth day — “you are passing a significant boundary. Although you may not feel it. It’s something you might like to think about as you eat your meal today.”
“We look forward to hearing about it, Bob.”
“…Maybe one of you could tell us what you can see out of your picture window right now.”
York turned. The “picture window” was a two-foot-wide viewport set in the wall of the wardroom, big enough to have to curve to follow the concavity of the pressure hull; it was triple-paned, with the thick, tough feel about it of an airplane window.
“I see Earth and Moon,” she reported. “They’re both pretty much full, although I can see a thin slice of shadow down the right-hand limb of each of them.” Earth was so distant, its sphericity wasn’t obvious; it was reduced to a flat blue bowl of light, with its pale, shrunken companion close by its limb. “The Earthlight is still bright,” she said. “Strong enough to read a book by, I’d say. But…”
“Go ahead, Natalie.”
“Something is different.” She peered into the window to see better. “The sky is just like a clear night on Earth. And — my God — it’s full of stars. Earlier in the flight the glare of Earth was so bright it blacked out everything else. Now, I can see the stars. I can recognize the constellations again, for the first time on the trip.”
“Ares, I guess you’ve really gone up into night.”
“Yes, we have. A huge, empty, cold night at that.”
“Ares, Houston. Thank you, Natalie. Ares, here’s the significance. You’re now almost exactly five hundred and sixty-two thousand statute miles from the Earth. That’s twice as far as any human has traveled before. And you’re now passing out of the Earth’s sphere of influence.”
Sphere of influence — an imaginary bubble in space centered on Earth, an almost perfect sphere where the gravitational potential of Earth and sun were in balance. Inside the sphere of influence, Ares had essentially been in an orbit dominated by Earth; beyond that point, however, the craft had escaped from Earth and was in solar orbit, a new planet."
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Bob Shaw on 03/28/2015 12:47 AM
Great work, guys! Keep it up!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/28/2015 12:59 AM
Great work, guys! Keep it up!

I am afraid there is a bit of a gap until the next milestone.  LOL.

But I am going to resume work on my other Mars project next week.

But from Baxter's Universe, I am working on a wet workshop Skylab.  A Saturn 1B with workshop on top.  I will be able to add solar panels and a telescope LM when I get around to it.   
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 03/28/2015 01:17 AM
I like all the docking ports.  Load that baby up with a Soyuz, a logistics module, two Apollo's, and the ATM
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/29/2015 04:55 AM
I decided to re-do Moonlab's Apollo Telescope Mount's solar array to the windmill configuration.  It just makes it seam more like a Skylab wet workshop.  I have a few more photos in work to also show the reworked S-IVB thrust structure.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/29/2015 10:04 PM
Here are a couple of other angles of Moonlab/Soyuz.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/30/2015 02:41 AM
Back in Earth orbit, I added a few decals to the Skylab Saturn 1B, SA-206.  Which in this universe, took the first Skylab crew to orbit. 

Although not technically part of the Baxter Earth, I have also been building Apollo 8's Saturn V and Saturn 1B SA-203.  A few more items to do on all 3 launch vehicles.

The Saturn V features batted F1 engines that I whipped up using metal plumbers tape.  It is a new idea I decided to try and I like the result.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 03/30/2015 08:55 AM
I dug my battered Voyage book this weekend and started reading it again at random. Red the final Mars landing and the biconic shuttle wanabee. Thinking about this thread certainly makes the novel even better...  ;D
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/31/2015 06:08 PM
I am having this made at Cafe Press.  I hope it looks cool when it gets here.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/03/2015 12:27 AM
In this alternate history, Skylab flew in 1973, but as a wet workshop.  Here it is on it's Saturn 1B on Pad 37B and shortly after launch.

A few days later, a Saturn 1B launched from Pad 34 with Pete Conrad, Joe Kerwin and Paul Weitz  who then began the difficult task of outfitting the tank for habitation. 

Skylab flights would continue at 3 a year for at least the next decade. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/04/2015 01:03 PM
Two weeks after launch, the Ares crew has settled into their daily routine.  Ares has not had any major issues. 

I wish I knew how to calculate the distance Ares has traveled or if an online calculator for that exists.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/04/2015 01:14 PM
Now with Ares "on it's way", I have gotten back to the Mars 1 ship.  I added corrugation to the pressure hulls and trusses to the tunnels that will be used to mount the various instruments and tanks.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/04/2015 09:56 PM
I added the oxygen tanks to both sides of the spacecraft.  I also made the 3 Venus probes and one of the aeroshells for the Martian airplane.  I am only making one of those since the parts I made it from were only a single set.  I still need to make 2 comsats for it as well.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/05/2015 09:24 PM
Some more photos of Mars One after painting and adding a few details.  When I do decals for this, I think I may add all the flags of the participating nations/space agencies:

United States
Soviet Union
ESA
Japan
India

This mission has quite a few similarities with Ares 1.  Both used the Earth-Venus-Mars trajectory and both used technologies current to their eras: Space Station modules, 28 Shuttle launches and 5 Soviet HLV. And 6 Ariane 4 launches.  And both use LOX/LH2 for fuel and nothing nuclear.


Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/05/2015 10:10 PM
Here are two views of the SKylab Workshop in orbit.  The first is just the workshop and the second is of the Skylab 2 mission commanded by Pete Conrad, who had the difficult task of outfitting the Wet Workshop for the next crew, an all military mission commanded by Ken Mattingly:

"Meanwhile NASA had run into a lot of flak over the first orbital workshop, Skylab A. Pete Conrad had led the first setup mission to open up Skylab. But then the second crew had been military, a consolation for the DoD after the shuttle cancellation. Ken Mattingly, an Apollo veteran, had led a crew of military astronauts — Manned Spaceflight Engineers — through a secretive program testing “Terra Scout” and “Battleview” surveillance equipment, radiation-monitoring gear, encrypted-communications beams. Every previous NASA flight had been completely open; it had been a deliberate and popular policy going back to Kennedy." 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/05/2015 11:36 PM
Mike has built a model of a proposed Mars flyby vehicle.  He named her "Discovery".  It is a series of upgraded S-IVB (S-IVC) stages.  In the book, it is proposed by the German scientists, Hans Udet after the Apollo-N disaster:

"Stone leafed through the report. “So what is Udet doing with this now?”
“He wants to revive a chemical-only Mars flyby option. A couple of S-IVB third stages in orbit, ganged together and fired off on a minimum-energy trajectory, looping around Mars. You’d need two, maybe three Saturn launches to do it.”
“A flyby of Mars? What the hell kind of mission is that?”
Muldoon rubbed his face. “Well, you’re talking maybe a seven-hundred-day round-trip, and about one day of useful work at Mars.”
“Whipping by at interplanetary speeds…”
“Oh, and by the way. You’d pass on the dark side.”
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/05/2015 11:52 PM
Engine ignition and leaving orbit.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 04/06/2015 12:20 AM
Tanks for doing the work to get Discovery in space Ron.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/06/2015 12:36 AM
You're welcome!  Here is one more with the first stage separation.  I did find a graphic showing the staging sequences, all of them in Earth orbit, it seams.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/06/2015 03:16 PM
After Ares?  An S-II based Space Station, with a docking node to accept international vehicles and modules.

And perhaps a reusable shuttle for crew transport?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/07/2015 01:30 PM
I did a little more work on Mars One.  I cut the LH2 and LOX tanks from Plastruct tube (TB-40).  4 long Hydrogen tanks and four small Oxygen tanks.  I had to order some elliptical domes for the hydrogen tanks, so I won't get much more done with them for a few days. 
I taped them together to get a notion of how big the model will be when done.   
And finally, the SSME I made way back in 1985 when the book was written and I made my first model from the Revel Space Operations Center model.  Even though that model is long since gone, this engine has survive.  I think it is only fitting that I use it again on this model.

After looking through the book last night, I realized that the designers only put one docking port on the ship, where the MEM attaches on the front.  I don't know how this is supposed to work for crew ingress!  Maybe fly over from the space station in the MEM! LOL
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/08/2015 01:53 PM
I reworked a couple of patches for the Moonlab Program.  Moonlab 1 which was  in 1976, which is why I used Apollo 16 as the base with all of it's red white and blue.  I used the Star Trek font because the CSM was named Enterprise after a write in campaign by Star Trek fans,  Moonlab-Soyuz, which is obviously based on Apollo-Soyuz.  I used a futuristic font that reminded me of Space:1999.   I also made Apollo 14, the last moon landing.  That was rather easy, lol.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/09/2015 02:19 AM
My Ares mission patch coffee mug arrived today!! I am really excited about it.  I think it turned out great.  Since I can't really justifying spending $150 to have 50 patches made, this is as close as I will likely get.  And I can order other items from Cafe Press with the logo if I want, since it is saved there.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/09/2015 04:23 PM
Back to the Mars One vehicle, I added the metal skin to the Hab, Lab and Storage modules.  It is chrome plumbers tape, again.  I love this stuff.  It can be smooth or wrinkled depending on what effect you want.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: JasonAW3 on 04/09/2015 06:00 PM
Back to the Mars One vehicle, I added the metal skin to the Hab, Lab and Storage modules.  It is chrome plumbers tape, again.  I love this stuff.  It can be smooth or wrinkled depending on what effect you want.

I'm beginning to wonder if we should try to do a Kickstarter for a return to the moon, let alone go on to Mars.

The only real issue I had with the book that you're basing your main models on is the developement that would have been required for the Manned Mars lander.  It would have required at least a couple of flights just to Man Rate it, so there wouldn't have been enough Saturn V's at the end of the run to launch everything needed for the Mars landing.

Unless of course the Saturn V line was restarted, that is.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/09/2015 08:20 PM
Back to the Mars One vehicle, I added the metal skin to the Hab, Lab and Storage modules.  It is chrome plumbers tape, again.  I love this stuff.  It can be smooth or wrinkled depending on what effect you want.

I'm beginning to wonder if we should try to do a Kickstarter for a return to the moon, let alone go on to Mars.

The only real issue I had with the book that you're basing your main models on is the developement that would have been required for the Manned Mars lander.  It would have required at least a couple of flights just to Man Rate it, so there wouldn't have been enough Saturn V's at the end of the run to launch everything needed for the Mars landing.

Unless of course the Saturn V line was restarted, that is.

In Voyage, the remaining Saturn Vs left after Apollo 14 were used for Moonlab missions and Apollo-N.  The Saturn VB vehicles were a new line of uprated Saturns.  And two manned test flights of the MEM were made, one orbital with an Apollo CSM and another landing test that was flown by John Young. 

There was discussion earlier in the book of just trying to use the remaining Sat Vs for Ares, and no new construction, but that changed with the Saturn VB and the fear of another disaster.  Other upgrades included making the Apollo capsule reusable and modular.  That way, with the 30+ Skylab and Moonlab long duration missions, the spacecraft would be recycled.  Those were known as the Block III and Ares used a Block IV Apollo.

And I wish kickstarter could generate that much money!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: JasonAW3 on 04/09/2015 09:09 PM
Back to the Mars One vehicle, I added the metal skin to the Hab, Lab and Storage modules.  It is chrome plumbers tape, again.  I love this stuff.  It can be smooth or wrinkled depending on what effect you want.

I'm beginning to wonder if we should try to do a Kickstarter for a return to the moon, let alone go on to Mars.

The only real issue I had with the book that you're basing your main models on is the developement that would have been required for the Manned Mars lander.  It would have required at least a couple of flights just to Man Rate it, so there wouldn't have been enough Saturn V's at the end of the run to launch everything needed for the Mars landing.

Unless of course the Saturn V line was restarted, that is.

In Voyage, the remaining Saturn Vs left after Apollo 14 were used for Moonlab missions and Apollo-N.  The Saturn VB vehicles were a new line of uprated Saturns.  And two manned test flights of the MEM were made, one orbital with an Apollo CSM and another landing test that was flown by John Young. 

There was discussion earlier in the book of just trying to use the remaining Sat Vs for Ares, and no new construction, but that changed with the Saturn VB and the fear of another disaster.  Other upgrades included making the Apollo capsule reusable and modular.  That way, with the 30+ Skylab and Moonlab long duration missions, the spacecraft would be recycled.  Those were known as the Block III and Ares used a Block IV Apollo.

And I wish kickstarter could generate that much money!

If we could get a billionare to donate enough, we could do that with a kikstarter and a Billion dollar lottery.

It's funny, maybe I read a different book, but I don't remember those details in the story.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/09/2015 11:09 PM
Well, technically, we do have a billionaire donating money to Mars, LOL.

A lot of those details are just in one line, maybe a bit of dialogue by the characters.  Even after reading it 3 times, I missed many of the little details about what was going on in the background with NASA.  But between Mike and I searching for those details, we have managed to find them.  Plus, having a digital copy I can search REALLY helps a lot. 

I never realized missions to Skylab were flying 3 times a year for 10 years and a Moonlab once a year for 5 or 6 until Mike found the reference. 

Here is the quotes for the MEM test flights:
We’ve defined six preliminary classes of mission, designated here A to F. They are mostly Earth-orbit tests of the system components. But they lead up to the final flight — mission class F — which will be the full Mars landing attempt.
" The C mission is another unmanned shakedown, this time of a MEM test article in near-operational condition. The D mission will be the first manned MEM flight, to Earth orbit; this will be a long-duration mission to test for space soak.
“The two E-class missions will be further manned MEM tests; we’re intending to trial the new descent systems with lunar and/or Earth landings. Also in this period we expect to confirm orbital assembly procedures. Finally, the F mission will be the Mars flight itself, and it’s got to be ready to depart on March 21, 1985. Otherwise we wait two more years for the next opposition. The precise sequencing of the other missions, and their dates, is to be determined; we’re intending to take advantage of success…”
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/09/2015 11:49 PM
And about the Command Modules, Ares was Block V not IV, sorry.

"But this Apollo — called a “Block V” design by the Rockwell engineers who had built her — was put together very differently from the early models, the old Block IIs, which had flown to the Moon in the 1960s, and even from the later Block III and IV Earth-orbital ferries."

and
"The irony was that the Apollo system had been heavily upgraded in the last few years. Rockwell had stretched the original lunar flight design, making it more robust and reliable, and increasing its capacity; Apollo was mostly used as an orbital ferry craft for taking crews to and from the Skylabs, but even flying solo it was capable of supporting as many as four men for eight days in orbit. Rockwell was even trying to make the Command Module reusable, by providing saltwater protection and modularizing its components — so a module could be cannibalized after splashdown, even if the whole thing couldn’t be flown again."
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/13/2015 01:35 PM
Working on the booster stage:
An oxygen tank, the end caps for the hydrogen tanks and all of the tank cylinders.  And finally, the four hydrogen tanks together.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/14/2015 12:13 AM
I painted the hydrogen tanks orange and want to make them the same color as the shuttle tank insulation.  I assume it would get very dark after exposure to sunlight even in space.  I will do more weathering on it later.  I attached the oxygen tanks temporarily to see how the fit is progressing.  After I finish the hydrogen tanks, I will glue them and work on struts and fuel lines to the engine.

 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 04/14/2015 02:12 AM
I used Rust for my first ET's.

But now I use my dwindling supply of Sloth Brown or Yellow Ochre which Testors no longer makes.  It can still be found on E-Bay though.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/14/2015 11:33 AM
I used to have yellow ochre too, but it is gone.  I also had a terra cotta brown which looks good too.  I still have some of the paint I used for my Delta IV, I may dry brush that on the tanks.  It is really impossible to match a paint to something that changes color over time!  I just pick  a favorite photo and try to match that.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/14/2015 11:32 PM
Well, with today off and watching a Falcon take flight, I did some more work on Mars One.  I dry brushed the orange tanks with the paint left over from my Delta IV model.  After that dried, I attached the LOX tanks between each LH2 tank.  Some Plastruct trusses were put in between the tanks.   I then worked on the main engine assembly, making the section of the truss that extends around the engine mount.  I attached the engine to the tank assembly and added fuel lines from the LOX tanks.  Then put the whole ship together to see how it looks!  I added an airlock module to the design just to the aft of the modules.

Solar arrays and more details are next.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/15/2015 11:42 PM
I made one solar panel extended and one collapsed.  This way, it will be easier to handle and display with only one sticking out of the top.  I also made the radiators for the top and bottom.  There are still some tanks to make for the crew module exterior and some details on the fuel tanks left to do.  A few weeks ago, I didn't think I would ever get this close to finishing the ship.

Mars One is almost ready to fly to Mars! ( I wish it had another name, since Mars One is in use today)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/15/2015 11:54 PM
And this vacuum formed cone will be the MEM!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/16/2015 01:49 AM
There are four "storage tanks" on top of the central tunnel.  I used tanks from the destroyed Pilgrim 1 model and cut them to size and wrapped them in gold mylar.  I think that is all the work for today.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/16/2015 03:56 PM
Here is the MEM.  It is very light weight, so it attaches and stays on the forward docking port easily.  The retro pack is the top of a cap from a tube of model cement.  It is the perfect shape and size.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: RichO on 04/16/2015 06:01 PM
Very Cool  Ron!!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/16/2015 08:18 PM
Thanks, Rich! 

Here are some picture of the whole ship together.  I still need the comsat and the decals are drying after printing.

I can't wait to put this into orbit around Mars!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 04/16/2015 09:03 PM
Nice work!  What scale do you figure it is.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/16/2015 09:12 PM
Nice work!  What scale do you figure it is.

I scaled it to 1/144th scale.  To compare to everything else.  The tubes are the same diameter as the Spacelabs in the Revell Shuttle. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 04/16/2015 10:37 PM
Cool.  I was thinking the MEM was a lot smaller than it is.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/16/2015 11:15 PM
Actually, this MEM is small.  According to the manual, it is suppose to be 30' in diameter which would be 2.5'' in scale.  The cone and dish I got from Plastruct is 2'' in diameter.  This MEM would be 24' in diameter. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/17/2015 01:22 AM
These pictures will give you an idea of the scale.  This is the ship next to the actual manual and an in scale Revell Shuttle: the Independence.  The Independence has the crew transport module in her payload bay.  I took one of my really old shuttles and put a new name on it.  It's door hinges were broke, so I glued the doors open.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: roma847 on 04/17/2015 06:07 AM
Come on Ron,
(http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/speak_cool.gif) I can't wait to see this in orbit around Mars!   (http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/goodjob.gif)

The green men surely will be amazed and have a lot of fun - stunning stuff. (http://scaleworld.forenworld.net/images/smilies/biggrin.gif) (http://scaleworld.forenworld.net/images/smilies/stupid.gif) (http://scaleworld.forenworld.net/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)

(http://scaleworld.forenworld.net/images/smilies/hallo.gif)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/17/2015 04:14 PM
Soon, Manfred, soon!

These are the decals I printed, but they didn't show up well on the metal hulls of the modules.  I will have to think of something else. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/18/2015 03:07 PM
OK, I have added the decals.  Each module has it's name on it, Hab 1, Hab 2, Lab and Storage.  The United Nations was supposed to organize this mission so it's flag is large on the front of the ship with "Mars One" on the opposite side.  Under Mars One are the flags of the main participating nations and their agencies.  A group of those flags also are placed on each hab module. 

I will try to take some beauty shots soon to put her in orbit of Mars.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/18/2015 03:47 PM
BTW, it would have been 28 days, exactly 4 weeks since Ares launched 30 years ago.  So here is Ares, 4 weeks out and still 143 days from Venus flyby and 341 days from Mars orbit!!

Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/19/2015 03:37 AM
February 20, 1997: Mars One on approach to Mars Orbit Insertion burn.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 04/19/2015 08:45 AM
I like the Aviation Week Cover.

Mars I looks good, too...
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/21/2015 12:28 AM
Here is a few more pictures of Mike's Discovery and it's staging. 

The first photo is the dropping of the 2nd stage and ignition of the 3rd and final booster stage.  The 3rd stage boosts the habitat out of Earth orbit and on it's flyby trajectory around Mars and back.

And the last picture is of the habitat leaving Earth and the spent 3rd stage behind.  The habitat has it's own small engine for course correction. 

Now, I need some photos of the habitat with it's solar panels so I can fly it around Mars!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/21/2015 07:41 PM
Here is another one of Mars One during it's orbital insertion burn.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/21/2015 11:12 PM
Here is a side by side comparison of both Ares and Mars One.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: RanulfC on 04/22/2015 09:36 PM
And that makes me thing of bubbles saying:
 "Mars One: Took your time didn't you?"
"Ares: Do NOT turn left at Phobos, we're just sayin..."

Randy
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 05/05/2015 02:49 PM
I modified two more patches for Moonlab flights.  So, now I have 1, 2, 3 and 5. With Enterprise as the CSM for Moonlab 1, I will assume Kitty Hawk would be Moonlab 2, and Casper for Moonlab 3.

I realized that Atlantis was never used for a vehicle in Voyage, so maybe Moonlab 4 and the Grissom for Moonlab 5/Soyuz.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 05/10/2015 01:50 AM
On the 50th day since launch, the Ares crew conducted an Interview with CNN.  With question submitted by children, Tom Mintier asked the astronauts the questions, and then waited for the answers.  The next interviews would be taped and the time delay edited out.

This was a fun photo to do.  I googled images of astronauts in the shuttle and ISS to find some in the correct pose.  I then added the actors faces from the audio to those photos using Gimp.  With Astronaut Scott still standing in for Gershon, I had to add the bottom of an EVA suit to his photo, since I could not find a full body shot.  I then put them into a photo of Skylab.  I had to manipulate a CNN logo to the correct color, and create the “Live” and “from ARES Mission Module” in MS Paint.  Once it was all put together, I filtered it in Gimp to look like a VHS screen capture from 1985!

The whole thing took about 3 hours to do.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 05/25/2015 10:29 PM
Mission Elapsed Time [Day/Hr:Min:Sec] Plus 066/06:34:51(May 25, 1985)
Phil Stone hadn’t slept well. It was almost a relief when his intercom started piping out some kind of music, gentle elevator stuff with guitars.
The music cut off.
Fred Haise, working as capcom, came on the line. “When you’re ready, Ares, I’ve got a couple of flight plan updates and an update on your consumables, and the morning news, I guess.”
“Surely. What have we got… The Lakers have beaten the Boston Celtics four to two for the NBA title. Natalie might be glad to hear that. Or she might not. The TWA hijack continues. It looks as if the passengers have been moved out and dispersed around the Beirut slums… Here’s something for you, Ralph; I know you’re a sci-fi buff. Gene Roddenberry has said he’s scrapping the treatment he’d prepared for a new Star Trek series. It was going to be like the first, with the huge space cruiser Enterprise with massive phaser banks, bigger and more powerful than anything they’re likely to encounter. But he’s changed his mind; he’s been inspired by you guys, apparently. Now, Roddenberry says he’s aiming for something called Star Trek Explorer, about a small, pioneering band of humans and aliens in their fragile craft, going much farther than anyone has gone before… How about that, guys. Science fact changing the face of science fiction. It says here.”
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 05/30/2015 01:48 PM
OK, granted it is still a long way off for this to happen real time, but I am really happy with this photo!

Challenger approaching landing.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 05/30/2015 02:55 PM
Most excellent
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 05/30/2015 04:56 PM
Superb picture !

I loved the alternate Star Trek, too.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 06/01/2015 12:10 AM
Thanks!  I am trying to do more surface shots for next year.  "Next year", wow. it still is hard to fathom that it would have been such a long mission!  It makes me realize just how hard the flight to Mars would be. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 06/02/2015 03:35 PM
Ronpur - if you ever need a soundtrack to Baxter Voyage then there's an album that fit the bill wonderfully. It is Dire Straits "On the Night" (recorded during their huge On every street tour that lasted all over the years 1991-92). Admittedly the album didn't existed in 1986, although most tracks had probably been released by the mid-80's.

(http://www.google.fr/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://www.discology.be/jaquettes3/Dire-Straits_On-The-Night.jpg&sa=X&ei=as9tVcWwG4G1UKLkgMAE&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNEyPIoFYjQBtHS-LOE22kf8BBjNXA)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Night
1.    "Calling Elvis"                                   10:25
2.    "Walk of Life"                               5:06
3.    "Heavy Fuel"                                       5:23
4.    "Romeo and Juliet"                      10:05
5.    "Private Investigations"               9:43
6.    "Your Latest Trick"                       5:35
7.    "On Every Street"                               7:01
8.    "You and Your Friend"                       6:48
9.    "Money for Nothing"                          6:28
10.    "Brothers in Arms"                             8:54

I would suggest "Brother in arms" for the novel finale, when Natalie set her foot on Mars.

"Romeo and Juliet" > Apollo-N scary reentry with Ben Priest feelings.

"Calling Elvis" > the Venus flyby, September 8, 1985

"Your latest trick" > any part that describe Earth as seen from orbit.

Still thinking about the others...
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 06/11/2015 07:34 PM
While I wait for the next scheduled update from Voyage, I painted up an old space shuttle and turned it into a US Air Force space shuttle.  Here it is seen on SLC-6 at Vandenberg AFB. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 07/19/2015 11:14 PM
 From Voyage by Stephen Baxter:
"Mission Elapsed Time [Day/Hr:Min:Sec] Plus 121/12:23:34 (July 20, 1985)
Gershon floated out of the docking adapter and into the Command Module’s forward access tunnel. He emerged headfirst at the top of Apollo’s conical cabin. He did a neat somersault in the air, translating from the “up” of the Mission Module to the “down” of the Apollo.
He adjusted his headset and made sure he had a working comms link to the rest of the Ares cluster — both York and Stone responded from intercoms in the Mission Module — and he fired off a call to Fred Haise, who was the capcom on the ground. He didn’t wait for his signal to crawl across the Solar System to bring him a reply before beginning work, however.
He began to power up Apollo’s systems.
During the transfer to Mars and back, all but essential systems were quiescent on Apollo. There were umbilical connections through the docking system which hooked up Apollo to the main solar panel arrays, so Apollo didn’t have to run on its own power. Every fifty days or so, Gershon was supposed to go through this routine of checking Apollo’s systems. He was making sure they would be working when it came time for the crew to ride Apollo home, back down through the air of Earth.
The chore took maybe 40 percent of his attention.
He dug a cassette tape out of his pocket and slid it into the deck forward of Stone’s flight station. The sound of violins — a light, delicate phrase — came drifting out into the cabin’s thin air. Gershon closed his eyes, and let the music wash over him. Mozart: Symphony Number 40. Exquisite. He felt himself relax, and even the cabin around him started to feel bigger.
Nam vets were supposed to live up to the image of spaced-out Jimi Hendrix fans. And in Houston, image was an important thing: when you had ten guys, with equally good qualifications, competing for one seat, intangibles like image could win you a flight, or lose you one.
So Gershon kept his Mozart to himself.

He was alone in the cabin as he worked through his checklist. Closing the hatch was strictly against regs, and he had to clear it with Stone every time he went in there. But Apollo was one of the few places in the whole cluster where you could get a little genuine privacy. Stone understood. You had to have a little space, a little time to yourself.
It was strange to think that there were only three human beings within tens of millions of miles of this point, and yet here they were cooped up together, for months on end, in this collection of tin cans. The only solid interior partitions in the Mission Module were those around the crapper.

He worked steadily through the gauges and dials and computer screens in front of him, and compared them with the expected readings printed out on his teletyped checklist. His headset was voice-activated; he’d fixed it so that the Mozart stopped playing when he spoke."
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 07/19/2015 11:17 PM
"Gershon liked working with Apollo hardware.
The basic design was antiquated, but it was fifteen years since its last major failure, on Apollo 13. Anyway, there wasn’t necessarily anything wrong with “antiquated.” To a pilot, it was the difference between a development vehicle and an operational bird; for “antiquated” read “proven.” In Gershon’s view it would have been a crying shame to have abandoned the Apollo line back in the early 1970s and try to build a newfangled spaceplane. Nice as the shuttle would have been to fly.
The enhancements Rockwell had applied over the years had turned the basic configuration into a flexible, robust space truck. Outwardly the ship stuck nose first to the front of the Mission Module Docking Adapter looked much the same as every other Apollo which had ever flown: it was made up of the classic configuration, the cylindrical Service Module, with its big propulsion system engine bell stuck on the back, and the squat cone of the Command Module on top. But this Apollo — called a “Block V” design by the Rockwell engineers who had built her — was put together very differently from the early models, the old Block IIs, which had flown to the Moon in the 1960s, and even from the later Block III and IV Earth-orbital ferries.

The Service Module had more reaction control gas and less main engine propellant. The old Service Modules had vented excess water, produced by the onboard batteries; the Ares model stored its water in tanks, to avoid having frozen ice particles drifting around near the cluster. The whole configuration had more batteries, and there was more stowage area and locker space in the Command Module. There was an atmosphere interchange duct in the upper docking assembly, to cycle air from the Mission Module into the Command Module. And so on.

Reliability was essential on long-duration missions. Many of Apollo’s systems had redundant backups — straightforward copies, to be substituted in case of a failure — but the old triple-redundancy design paradigm they’d used to get to the Moon wouldn’t work, it had been found, on long-duration missions. Enough redundancy to achieve an acceptably low level of risk over such a span of time would have resulted in a spacecraft of immense weight and complexity.
So the designers had gotten smarter. In addition to simple redundancy, some functions could be performed by dissimilar components, or by components from different subsystems, to reduce the chance of a single failure mode knocking out many functions altogether — as had happened in Apollo 13. And the maintenance capabilities of the crew weren’t ignored, either. The whole ship was more modular and accessible than in its first design, so that components could be reached, and repaired or replaced comparatively easily. There were also isolation valves,switches, test equipment, and fault diagnosis tools. Some of the components contained their own BITEs, microelectronic built-in self-test units."
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 07/19/2015 11:21 PM
While Gershon listens to Mozart as he works in the CSM, York works in the science module and Stone works in the habitat.  Ares has now been en route to Mars for 121 days still 248 days to go to MOI, with the next major event to be the Venus flyby in September. 


I am sure Baxter picked this date for this mission update because it is the anniversary of Apollo 11.  The photos I modified placed "Gershon" in the command module and "York" in the Skylab.  I found a photo from Skylab of what I think maybe Conrad, and used that for Stone.  And of course, another photo of my Ares model, showing the inhabited part of the spacecraft.  The Venus flyby is scheduled for September 8.  But, I have a few more things in work before then.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 07/20/2015 04:43 PM
I remember going to the hobby shop 30 years ago this week to spend my birthday money on this 1/144th scale Revell model of the Ares.  It was full of inaccuracies, using the Block 1 Apollo instead of the Block IV.  And it used the old S-IVB stage instead of the Ares Mission Module.  I would have to wait 10 years before accurate replacement parts were made of resin.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 07/29/2015 12:46 PM
My grandparents went to Florida back in 1970 when we lived in Illinois.  They brought this back, which I still have and is very well worn.

And below that is the one they would have brought back in this timeline.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: ohaithere01 on 08/07/2015 08:24 PM
Okay, so i was re-reading Voyage and i saw this. Did they make the F-1A's to run on LH2 instead of RP-1? If so, would they have less thrust than standard F-1s?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 08/07/2015 08:35 PM
Hum, oh boy, these things are what I live for!  If I can't find another reference to this, I would assume it to be an error.  There are several, the Dana having two rookie flights is one of them, and issues with the timeline.  But there seem to be more in the Ares section than anywhere else. 

I will look tonight to see if I see anything else. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 08/08/2015 02:13 AM
OK, I have reviewed the book, and found this passage, from after the Saturn VB accident:

"Dana was speaking, in his thin, frail voice. Udet drew a little more upright in his chair.
“At 6.6 seconds before launch, the Saturn’s kerosene-fueled F-1A main engines were ignited in sequence and run up to full thrust, while the entire structure was still bolted to the launchpad. The thrust of the main engines pushed the Saturn assembly upward, against the restraint exerted by the pin-down bolts anchoring it to the pad. When the Solid Rocket Boosters’ restraining bolts were explosively released the stack’s ‘stretch’ was suddenly relieved…”"

There are more saying the MS-1C uses RP-1.

The F1-A used kerosene then, so that reference is an error. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 08/17/2015 08:46 PM
At a mission elapsed time of +150 Days, Ares is only 24 days from passing Venus to pick up speed to get to Mars. 

The ship looks very tiny in space, all alone in the dark........
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 08/18/2015 10:10 PM
I found an old photo of the sign by the gate at Kennedy Space Center.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 08/23/2015 02:04 PM
I missed this update by a few days.

"The subprobe had been ejected twenty-three days ago, from a compartment at the base of the Mission Module, and had been pushed onto a slowly diverging orbit. Ares was missing Venus by a few thousand miles; the probe, pushed ahead of Ares, was supposed to impact the planet directly, a few minutes before the closest approach of the main craft. The probe would hit in the middle of the dayside, in an upland region called Ishtar Terra.
The probe was contained within its aeroshell deceleration module, a deep, streamlined pie dish. Its TV cameras couldn’t see out of the aeroshell, but there was a radio-transparent window at the top, so the probe could talk to Ares."

The probe in my photo is an actual Pioneer Venus Probe, just deformed a bit to make it look different.  A small rectangular hatch is open on the rear of the Mission Module in the background.


Edit: Replaced Probe
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 08/24/2015 12:19 AM
Sure looks lonely out there.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 08/26/2015 01:53 PM
I wasn't satisfied with the probe release picture, so I found a probe and angle I liked better.  Photo replaced.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 08/28/2015 07:58 PM
With the Venus Flyby approaching, the crew today deployed the Science Pallet.  Insert of the pallet being worked on in the VAB.

I had forgotten to build and attach the pallet until a few days ago.  By placing it in this location, it would not be seen in any of my previous photos.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/01/2015 12:49 PM
September 1, 1985.  165 days since launch.  Ares was approaching Venus for it's fly by.  This would give the craft the needed velocity to make it to Mars, with the fuel on board. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/08/2015 04:27 PM
Mission Elapsed Time [Day/Hr:Min:Sec] Plus 171/13:24:02 (Sept 8, 1985)
“Sixty minutes to pericenter,” Stone said.
All three members of the crew were in the Mission Module’s science platform. At the heart of this little octagonal chamber, lined with its banks of switches and displays, they were strapped into harnesses and had their feet hooked into stirrups.
Above York’s head there was a small science viewport. A brilliant, shifting white light beat down over her face, flooding the fluorescents.
She could see the upper half of a fat, pale, gibbous disc.
My God. That’s Venus.
To her naked eye, the dayside of the planet was glaring white — much brighter than Earth, from a similar distance — and it washed out the stars. Of the thin slice of nightside she could see nothing at all.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/08/2015 04:36 PM
The plan was for Ares to skim around behind the dark side of the planet. The slingshot would twist the ship’s trajectory through thirty degrees, and Ares would be hugely accelerated. As Ares had crawled, unpowered, around the sun, it had drawn only a little way ahead of Earth; so Ares was passing between Venus and Earth. The cluster would pass into the shadow of Venus, but it would never be out of Earth’s line of sight.
The members of the crew had their assignments for the Venus encounter phase: Stone was monitoring the cluster’s trajectory, Gershon was to follow the atmospheric-entry subprobe Ares had released, and York was operating the Mission Module’s sensor pallet.
In one of the video monitors she had an image of the cloud tops in ultraviolet light. It showed a wealth of blue-gray detail invisible to the naked eye: cloud structures that swept around the planet, complex bows and cells that distorted and stretched out along the planet’s lines of latitude. The whole thing, in its computer-generated false colors, looked almost Earthlike.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/08/2015 04:39 PM
York returned to her station. “The TV mosaics have started,” she reported. “And the planetary strip photography. Everything’s nominal on the pallet.”
“Pericenter,” Stone said abruptly. “How about that. Mission elapsed time one seventy-one days, fourteen hours, twenty-four minutes.” He checked his displays. “It’s the eighth of September 1985, and here we are at Venus, guys. Distance to the surface three thousand, one hundred, fifty-five miles and change. We’ve come a hundred and seven million miles from Earth, and we’re within fifty miles of the nominal trajectory. Damn fine shooting.”
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 09/08/2015 07:36 PM
Damn Fine Shooting!!!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/05/2015 03:14 AM
After seeing The Martian, I have decided to take a look at my next Mars model.  This will be based on one of Von Braun's mission plans from 1969.  Keeping it in universe with "Voyage", I will portray it as Hans Udet's original plan to use the NERVA to fly a mission to Mars.

I am assuming it would take 3 Saturn VB launches to place the fueled NERVA tugs in orbit with one to launch the Mission Module and MEM.  The Mission Module will be the same as what was flown in 1985-86.  The crew would follow on a Saturn 1B launch, and not a shuttle as was the Von Braun plan. 

I may make this model a smaller scale than the 1/144th Ares I already have built.  Maybe a desktop model that sat on Udet's desk at Marshall!

I also drew up a plan that uses 4 NERVA tugs.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 10/05/2015 07:32 PM
The Boeing IMIS used 5 Nerva stages.  3 to leave, 1 for MOI and one to return to earth.  Cross fed.

Someplace I have the launch campaign.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 10/06/2015 02:33 AM
I have read in this thread here:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29798.0
about the differences in the plans.  Boeing's used the nuclear tugs designed for lunar missions, while the Von Braun used tugs designed for a Mars mission.  That is why Boeing used more.  I have to re-read some sections of Voyage to figure out what Udet's plan was, I assume it was Von Braun's.

It also looks like they would have needed fuel lofted as well.  The shuttle was part of that plan to take fuel and provisions to the ship.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 10/06/2015 07:39 AM
That's great ! Can't help much about Udet plan - it was very murky in the book. What I remember is that Bleeker and York visits the NERVA testbed, Bleeker told her that development is so hard and delayed they had to sacrifice many useful functions, such as restart and deep throthling. Voyage NERVA, even without the 1980 disaster, would have lacked S-IVB flexibility.

My opinion is, considering the difficulties with NERVA, they would used just one to push the stack out of Earth orbit, and that would be it. Everything else would be plain chemical propulsion through the S-IVB.

After the disaster it is made clear that the S-II replaced the NERVA for Earth orbit departure.

Clustering NERVAs would be dangerous: neutrons would jump from the central NERVA to the lateral ones, messing up everything.

This discuss difficulties and dangers of an Earth orbit NERVA
http://www.wired.com/2012/09/nuclear-flight-system-definition-studies-1971/

Quote
contractors had recommended that no piloted spacecraft approach to within 100 miles of an operating NERVA I engine.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 10/07/2015 12:14 AM
That's great ! Can't help much about Udet plan - it was very murky in the book. What I remember is that Bleeker and York visits the NERVA testbed, Bleeker told her that development is so hard and delayed they had to sacrifice many useful functions, such as restart and deep throthling. Voyage NERVA, even without the 1980 disaster, would have lacked S-IVB flexibility.

My opinion is, considering the difficulties with NERVA, they would used just one to push the stack out of Earth orbit, and that would be it. Everything else would be plain chemical propulsion through the S-IVB.

After the disaster it is made clear that the S-II replaced the NERVA for Earth orbit departure.

Clustering NERVAs would be dangerous: neutrons would jump from the central NERVA to the lateral ones, messing up everything.

This discuss difficulties and dangers of an Earth orbit NERVA
http://www.wired.com/2012/09/nuclear-flight-system-definition-studies-1971/

Quote
contractors had recommended that no piloted spacecraft approach to within 100 miles of an operating NERVA I engine.

I have that report! It's very good.  Full of the nasty details that NTR advocates don't like to think on.  Baxter also does a great description of what can go wrong, something alse that NTR supporters don't like to think about.

The NERVA Mars missions all had three NERVAs side by side.  In some all three fired for Earth departure, in others only the two outer ones.  Single NERVAs were for flyby missions.

Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 10/10/2015 08:17 AM
Bellcomm was to NASA what Jiminy Cricket is to Pinocchio: the voice of reason they never really listened...
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/19/2015 03:02 AM
If anyone is interested, I made up a calendar of these images on Lulu for myself!  Message me if you want the link.  It is set at the minimum price they charge: $9.99.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 01/17/2016 02:11 AM
I did a bit of a clean up on the Aviation Week magazine.  There was an issue published March 25 and April 1 in 1985.  I don't think that they could have released an issue 3 days after the launch with photos back then, so I went with April 1.  I have been working on photos and models for the landing in March and departure in April.  Stay tuned for this incredibly long mission!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 01/26/2016 12:03 AM
I went back and revisited an earlier part of the novel, Voyage, the Apollo-N flight.
The first image shows the Saturn-N in flight, at about the time it would be hit with the first stage pogo.
The second is the moment of ignition of the NERVA engine several days latter.  And the the moment of the explosion, with a few bits of debris flying free.  The SM thrusters are firing, trying to keep the attitude of the vehicle stable.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 01/26/2016 11:30 AM
Cool pictures as usual.
Tuesday January 28, 1986 30th anniversary coming soon.  :(
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 01/26/2016 11:55 AM
There is a brief extract in the novel from the report on the accident:

Thursday, January 8, 1981

…On admission, Colonel Priest was nauseated, chilled, and agitated, with glassy eyes. His temperature was 104 degrees. He had been cut from his pressure suit. He suffered repeated vomiting, and swelling of the face, neck, and upper extremities. His arms were so swollen, in fact, that his blood pressure could not be taken with the normal cuff, and the nurses had to enlarge it.

He was periodically conscious, and sometimes coherent and logical, but I judged he was not strong enough to contribute to any debriefпngs concerning the accident.

Priest’s difficulty in speaking and lapses into incoherence made his relatives in attendance, and some of my staff, feel uncomfortable.

Twenty-four hours after admission I ordered four samples of bone marrow to be taken from Priest’s sternum and iliac bones (both front and rear). Priest was very patient during the proceedings. The samples were used to determine the whole body dose.

During the fourth and fifth days after admission, Priest was in great pain from injuries to the mucous membranes of the mouth, esophagus, and stomach. The mucous membranes were coming off in layers. Priest lost both sleep and appetite. Starting on the sixth day his right shin, on which the skin was disintegrating, began to swell and feel as if it was bursting; it then became rigid and painful.

On the seventh day, on account of a profound agranulocytosis — that is, a drop in the number of granular forms of leucocytes, responsible for immunity — I ordered an administration of 750 milliliters of bone marrow with blood.

Priest was then moved to a room sterilized with ultraviolet light. A period of intestinal syndrome began: bowel movements occurred between twenty-five and thirty times every twenty-four hours, containing blood and mucus; there was tenesmus, rumbling, and movement of fluids in the region of the caecum.

Owing to the severe lesions in the mouth and esophagus, Priest did not eat for several days. We provided nutrient fluids intravenously. In the meantime, soft blisters appeared on the perineum and buttocks, and the right shin was bluish purple, swollen, shiny, and smooth to the touch.

On the fourteenth day Colonel Priest began to lose his hair, in a curious manner: all the hair on the back of his head and body fell out. He grew weaker, and his lapses into unconsciousness or incoherence grew more prolonged.

On Friday January 2, the thirtieth day after the accident, Priest’s blood pressure suddenly dropped.

Fifty-seven hours later, Colonel Priest died; I recorded the immediate cause of death as acute myocardial dystrophy.

Under the microscope, it was quite impossible to see Priest’s heart tissue. The cell nuclei were a mass of torn fibers. It is accurate to say that Priest died directly from the radiation itself, and not from secondary biological changes. Gentlemen, it is impossible to save such patients, once the heart tissue has been destroyed.

Of the three members of Apollo-N’s crew, only Colonel Priest was found to be alive when the capsule was recovered after reentry. The radiation from the ruptured NERVA core had hit Colonel Priest from behind, doing most harm to his back, his calves, his perineum, and buttocks.

His mother, wife, and son were in attendance at his death.

Source: Report of the Presidential Commission on the Apollo-N Malfunction, Vol. I: Testimony of Dr. I.S. Kirby to the Medical Analysis Panel (extract) (Washington, DC: Government Printing Office, 1981)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 01/28/2016 10:03 AM
Mission Elapsed Time [Day/Hr:Min:Sec] Plus 313/11:33:22 (Jan 28, 1986)
313/11:37:07 CDR Okay. Natalie, I believe you’re going to tell the folks about our call signs for the rest of this mission.
313/11:37:11 MSP Thank you. I know that sometimes our space-age jargon confuses the hell out of people.
313/11:37:15 CDR Hot mike.
313/11:37:17 MSP Confuses people. And it sure confuses me. For instance, our space travelers’ “calendar.” We count our days from the moment we left the ground, aboard our Saturn VB booster, from the Jacqueline B. Kennedy Space Center. So, to us, today is MET 313 days — that’s three hundred and thirteen days of Mission Elapsed Time, more than three hundred days since we left Earth. While to you, it is a plain old Tuesday, January 28, 1986. And this business of the call signs is another problem. Why is it that spacecraft sometimes have call signs — individual names, like Apollo 11’s Eagle and Columbia — and at other times Houston will refer to us as just, say, “Ares”? The answer is that we need to use call signs when there is more than one separate spacecraft involved in a flight, and they need to be distinguished in our radio conversations. And that’s going to be true on this flight, when we get to Mars in a couple of months’ time, and we land on the surface in our MEM. Unlike the Apollo missions to the Moon, we decided not to choose the names for our separate craft until now, until after the launch, as we haven’t needed them. As a crew we thought we’d prefer to spend some of the long transfer time to Mars on thinking about that.
313/11:38:18 MMP Sure. That’s what we did. Rather than watch videotapes of the Super Bowl.
313/11:38:25 CDR [INAUDIBLE]
313/11:38:28 MSP So today I’m going to tell you what names we’ve chosen. I know we have a lot of children listening today, at schools, and I hope this will bring alive some of the history lessons you have, and you’ll be able to see how what we’re doing today, in our exploration of Mars, is really an extension of the great journeys you can read about in your texts. Phil, if you…
313/11:38:46 CDR Sure. We’ve decided to name our spacecraft after famous exploration sailing ships of the past, uh, in line with what Natalie’s just said. And I’m particularly pleased with the name we’ve given to our Mission Module — that is, the place we’re living in during the voyage — because it was from the Mission Module that we conducted our study of Venus, as we flew past that planet. And we’ve decided to name it after the sailing ship which Captain James Cook commanded to Tahiti in 1769, to watch a transit of Venus across the sun: Endeavour. Ralph…
313/11:39:17 MMP Yeah. Then there’s our Apollo, which we’ll use to return to Earth. We’ve chosen the name Discovery. That’s actually for two ships: the one Henry Hudson captained in 1610, in his search for a northwest passage between the Atlantic and the Pacific, and another of the ships Cook captained, when he visited Hawaii, and Alaska, and western Canada. Back to Natalie.
313/11:40:00 MSP And now the MEM, the Excursion Module which will be the first ship to land humans on the surface of Mars. We’re going to call it after a famous U.S. Navy ship, which made a prolonged and very successful exploration of the Atlantic and Pacific oceans in the 1870s.
313/11:40:19 CDR Yes.
313/11:40:21 MSP We’re naming our MEM Challenger.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 01/28/2016 10:25 AM
really great. By the way, was does "HOT MIKE" mean ?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 01/28/2016 10:34 AM
It was a warning that the word "hell" went out over the open microphone, so Natalie had better watch her language. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: luke strawwalker on 02/01/2016 09:15 PM
I used to have yellow ochre too, but it is gone.  I also had a terra cotta brown which looks good too.  I still have some of the paint I used for my Delta IV, I may dry brush that on the tanks.  It is really impossible to match a paint to something that changes color over time!  I just pick  a favorite photo and try to match that.

I did a whole series of paint tests to match the ET foam color, detailed in my Dr. Zooch "Return to Flight" Space Shuttle thread #2 over on The Rocketry Forum...

Here's some links to the relevant posts, with lots of pics of the results and the methods used in text...

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?1207-Dr-Zooch-Return-To-Flight-Space-Shuttle-build-thread-2&p=13260#post13260

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?1207-Dr-Zooch-Return-To-Flight-Space-Shuttle-build-thread-2&p=13266#post13266

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?1207-Dr-Zooch-Return-To-Flight-Space-Shuttle-build-thread-2&p=13268#post13268

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?1207-Dr-Zooch-Return-To-Flight-Space-Shuttle-build-thread-2&p=13271#post13271

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?1207-Dr-Zooch-Return-To-Flight-Space-Shuttle-build-thread-2&p=13431#post13431

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?1207-Dr-Zooch-Return-To-Flight-Space-Shuttle-build-thread-2&p=16277#post16277

Enjoying the thread and KUTGW!  OL J R :)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/02/2016 11:39 AM
I used to have yellow ochre too, but it is gone.  I also had a terra cotta brown which looks good too.  I still have some of the paint I used for my Delta IV, I may dry brush that on the tanks.  It is really impossible to match a paint to something that changes color over time!  I just pick  a favorite photo and try to match that.

I did a whole series of paint tests to match the ET foam color, detailed in my Dr. Zooch "Return to Flight" Space Shuttle thread #2 over on The Rocketry Forum...

Here's some links to the relevant posts, with lots of pics of the results and the methods used in text...

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?1207-Dr-Zooch-Return-To-Flight-Space-Shuttle-build-thread-2&p=13260#post13260

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?1207-Dr-Zooch-Return-To-Flight-Space-Shuttle-build-thread-2&p=13266#post13266

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?1207-Dr-Zooch-Return-To-Flight-Space-Shuttle-build-thread-2&p=13268#post13268

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?1207-Dr-Zooch-Return-To-Flight-Space-Shuttle-build-thread-2&p=13271#post13271

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?1207-Dr-Zooch-Return-To-Flight-Space-Shuttle-build-thread-2&p=13431#post13431

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?1207-Dr-Zooch-Return-To-Flight-Space-Shuttle-build-thread-2&p=16277#post16277

Enjoying the thread and KUTGW!  OL J R :)
That is awesome work! It will help me when I ever get around to building that SLS model.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/21/2016 05:20 PM
This arrived in the mail 30 years ago.

I found the MEM image in a Google search. Then created the NG cover in paint! Based it on the Titanic cover of Dec 1986.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 02/21/2016 10:20 PM
Way Cool Ron!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/21/2016 10:51 PM
Thanks, Mike.
My favorite model kit.  The model was used during the news conference when the crew was announced.  It has decals for Iowa and Challenger.  I would do a Monogram box, but they always used artwork, not photos. 

"Friday, August 17, 1984
LYNDON B. JOHNSON SPACE CENTER, HOUSTON
The questions came drifting out of a sea of lights so intense that they seemed to bake York’s face dry.
“How does it feel to be on the crew?” “What about the guys you beat out?” “Who will be first on the surface?” “What’s it like in space?…”
The three of them — chaperoned by Joe Muldoon and Rick Llewellyn, head of NASA’s Public Affairs Office — sat on a rickety podium, with the NASA logo emblazoned behind them, and a Revell model of a Columbia MEM on the table before them. The briefing room in the Public Affairs Office was packed, and in front of their table there was what the Old Heads called a goat xxxx, an unseemly scramble of microphones and camera lenses, pushed into the faces of the astronauts."
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/21/2016 11:48 PM
And of course, the map supplement from the NG issue.  Note the image of Mariner 10!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/25/2016 12:01 PM
It appears that this image from last March has been nominated for a "Turtledove Award" on Alternate History Forum.  I am quite surprised and honored.  There is a lot of amazing work over there.  Here is a link to the nominees.  And you have to be a member to vote.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=382277
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/29/2016 01:59 AM
With just a few weeks before Ares arrives in Martian orbit, an image of the first sight of the Red Planet was released by NASA.  The image was captured by the onboard camera on the MS-II stage.

You will have to enlarge the photo to see Mars.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: AlexA on 02/29/2016 01:28 PM
I am trying to keep documents in the era, so to speak, so I roughed up this graphic to show the layout of the Ares launch vehicle. 

And after I drew this up, I realized I forgot the Orbital Maneuvering Module for my model.

IIRC One difference between the Ares Mission Module and Skylab is that the oxygen tank was a 'solar storm shelter' on the MM (instead of for waste). This begs the question of what to do with solid waste on a long-duration mission?
I suspect on-board storage wouldn't be practical, so some sort of waste airlock? I guess you'd want to give waste some impulse to avoid it following you to Mars!
How does the DRM deal with this issue?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 02/29/2016 02:54 PM
I found this paragraph:
"The Mission Module was based on the design of the Skylabs, which had been in use for more than a decade. Such was the lifting capacity of the Saturn VB that the Mission Module had been delivered to Earth orbit “dry” — carrying no fuel — and with interior partitions and equipment already fitted. The crew occupied what had been the hydrogen tank, all forty-eight feet of it, with its domed ceiling and floor. Hidden under the floor was the lox tank, much smaller, a cramped, squashed sphere. The lox tank was used to hold stores, and with its thicker walls it would serve as the crew’s storm shelter — shielding them from solar flares, if any blew up in the course of the mission."

So, yes, it was a storm shelter, but also used for storage, so it could very well have had been used for everything. 

I would have imagine that the waste would have been compressed, or dried and just stored.  I can't find any info on what Baxter's real idea was on this important detail.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: AlexA on 03/02/2016 12:26 PM
How much detail does Baxter gove on what USSR was doing in space during the timespan of the novel? (it's a long time since I read it).

What launcher did the Soyuz/Moonlab mission use? Aparently (see Zond) Proton only had enough dV for a free-return lunar trajectory, so wouldn't be suitable for lunar orbit rendezvous with Moonlab. Was it N-1 (programme continued and fixed in response to Ares?)? Or maybe the dual-launch recently proposed by Space Adventures (Soyuz s/c on Soyuz rocket + Block D on Proton).

I assume there wouldn't be a Buran shuttle in the Voyage timeline. So what did USSR do instead?
Use N-1 for big LEO spacestations? Or maybe next Mars mission after Ares would be Soviet lead (though if USSR still collapsed in 1989 could cause problems). Joint USSR/Nasa Mars missions instead of Shuttle/Mir?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/02/2016 01:18 PM
They did use the N-1 for the Moonlab mission.  Since the US never had a shuttle, there was no mention of Buran as well.  The Soyuz used for the Moonlab flight did not have an orbital module. 

There is actually a lot more with the Soviets than you would expect.  Natalie York is friends with a Russian cosmonaut, Vladimir Viktorenko.  He fly the Soyuz to Moonlab and does some training with York and Gershon after the Apollo-N disaster.  He is one of the first to congratulate her when she is named to the mission.  She carries a little bit of grass he gave her for good luck in the mission and gave her a small cosmonaut figure that was named Boris.  She carried all the way to Mars.  He also represented the Soviet Union at Jim Dana's funeral and was present at the launch of Ares, saying farewell to the crew as they entered the Astrovan.

They only kept flying Soyuz and Salyut as in our timeline.  No mention of further lunar flights, but they had to have happened.  Another mention was a Soyuz being sent up to photograph the remains of the Apollo-N reactor.  I want to believe that Ares II would have launch within 10 years and Vladimir Viktorenko would have been on that flight or the next.   But he would have been Russian by then, not Soviet.


FYI, I have a digital copy of Voyage that I can search for these references, I don't have the thing memorized,LOL.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 03/03/2016 06:41 AM
Baxter said the Soviet have abandonned their lunar landing program and there is no trace of a Soviet Mars shot. I don't think that's very realistic - the Soviets just seat on their hands and do nothing as the U.S goes to Mars.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/03/2016 11:46 AM
They also sent unmanned landers to Mars that were very successful. So why the US looses all of those Voyagers and Vikings, the Soviets gain them. And they develop their long term space flight as well. So with that and the success of the N-1, they could have come up with a Mars shot. I like to think that in the 1990s, the two countries decide to go back together, as we decided to do ISS.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: AlexA on 03/03/2016 01:08 PM
They also sent unmanned landers to Mars that were very successful. So why the US looses all of those Voyagers and Vikings, the Soviets gain them. And they develop their long term space flight as well. So with that and the success of the N-1, they could have come up with a Mars shot. I like to think that in the 1990s, the two countries decide to go back together, as we decided to do ISS.

Some detail on Soviet plans for Mars Rover (Mars-4NM) and Sample return (Mars-5NM):
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/mars5nm.htm (http://www.astronautix.com/craft/mars5nm.htm)
Cancelled in 1974 in RL, presumably continued in Voyage TL as a challenge to Ares (as they did with the moon race).
Is it plausible that a Soviet rover and/or sample return "beat" Ares but wasn't meantioned in the novel?
More likely they had multiple failures and only succeded in laters launch windows (1988/90?).

As for manned Mars plans, see here:
http://www.astronautix.com/fam/rustions.htm (http://www.astronautix.com/fam/rustions.htm)

Quote
1972 During the Year - . Launch Vehicle: UR-700M. •Soviet Mars expedition work ends - . Nation: USSR. Related Persons: Chelomei. Spacecraft: MK-700. Chelomei's preliminary draft project for the UR-700M launch vehicle and LK-700 spacecraft was reviewed by a government expert commission. Based on the decades worth of development and tens of billions or roubles required to realise the project, the state commission recommended that further work on manned Mars expeditions be deferred indefinitely.
From http://www.astronautix.com/craft/mk700.htm (http://www.astronautix.com/craft/mk700.htm)

With NASA manned Mars programme announced 15 JAN 1972, the outcome of the above meeting would have been very different. We know they pressed on with N1 to achive Moonlab mission in 1980.
I suspect they may have dusted off the TMK-1/MaVr plans which were N1 launched flyby mission instead of devleoping the massive UR-700 rocket.
See: http://www.astronautix.com/craft/tmk1.htm (http://www.astronautix.com/craft/tmk1.htm) and http://www.astronautix.com/craft/mavr.htm (http://www.astronautix.com/craft/mavr.htm)

So maybe Russian "Aelita" in 1992 window (maybe slipped to 1994 due to collapse of USSR).
Followed by joint Nasa/Russian Ares2/Aelita2 mission in late 1990s (instead of ISS). Maybe long-stay instead of 30 days.

Summary:

1972-1986 N1 fixed and man-rated. Multiple unmanned Mars mission failures. Large N1-launched LEO spacestations. Manned mars flyby developed in secret.
27 NOV 1980 N1/Soyuz Moonlab
[1986 Nasa Ares-1 landing]
1988 Mars 4NM "Marsokhod" rover succesful
1989 USSR collapses
1990 Mars 5NM successful Mars sample return
1994 Aelita Manned mars flyby - N1/TMK-1
1998 Nasa/Russian Ares2/Aelita2 long-stay manned landing
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/03/2016 01:21 PM
I think he would have mentioned the Soviets getting samples back, if it had happened.  And I double checked, there wasn't any mention of a Soviet Mars rover. 

I have a great book on the N-1 that has a lot of info on that Soviet Mars mission  I am coming up with an idea to join Salyut and Saturn components into a International Mars Mission in the 90s.  I will bring that to Alt History with my own post Voyage Timeline when ready!

It has to lead to a base on Mars today, Chaffee Base.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: RanulfC on 03/03/2016 04:49 PM
Baxter said the Soviet have abandonned their lunar landing program and there is no trace of a Soviet Mars shot. I don't think that's very realistic - the Soviets just seat on their hands and do nothing as the U.S goes to Mars.

Not that difficult to see under the circumstances actually. Instead of Apollo-Soyuz they "joined" in the Moonlab program and then "participated" in the Ares program (York went to Russia for training after all) but overall both in intent and fact "Voyage" is all about America with Russia being a "sideline" at best. (Reagan would have seriously attempted to cut them out after his election as possible anyway) At that point they might have tried to set up a competing Mars program but it's highly doubtful they'd have the time or resources to actually do anything before they collapse.

It's never mentioned or hinted at but I'd suspect they do about what they do in out TL and with the N1 and Soyuz build up a LEO and possibly Cis-Lunar program.

Ronpur: I'd love to see an extension of the Voyager time-line but realistically I don't see it leading to a Mars base I'm afraid. Voyage presumes enough interest and support to push past the post Apollo-11 "slump" but doesn't actually show how that is accomplished. (Kennedy surviving would not do it unless he has a serious change of heart and pulled us out of Vietnam among other things) And it seems pretty evident that the US and NASA are straining to get the single landing done, with no indication of a follow up in the works. (You would think someone would have mentioned the parts or process' of Ares-2 being in the background if they were in fact there) While it's possible a joint US-Russian mission to Mars could occur in the mid-to-late 90s instead of the ISS it's probably not likely given the circumstances. (The US "won" the Cold War Economically, which the Ares program is going to seriously decrease the "margin" thereof :) ) With Reagan's military build up during the 80s, the fall of the USSR in the early-90s along with the push in the US for a "peace dividend" in the mid-to-late-90s I don't see any logical way to NOT have the post-Apollo slump after Ares-1 if not worse.

Randy
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 03/03/2016 07:40 PM
The book definitely says it's a one-off mission.  I suppose it is possible that a very successful mission and some major findings by the crew could change that, but I suspect it is unlikely.  Also inconsistent with Baxter's generally nihilistic outlook on things.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/03/2016 08:09 PM
Very likely he intended it to be a one off, but I want to be optimistic, lol. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: AlexA on 03/04/2016 03:12 PM
My (very rough) post 1986 timelime is based on following assumptions/contraints:

No US-only Ares-2. The joint US/Russian 1990s mission takes the place of ISS. US could well be lesser partner - maybe there's a flight-spare MEM which they'll barter for a couple of seats?
The USSR "participation" in Ares limited to single Moonlab mission and a some training exchanges (much like ASTP). [If they were a major participant I'd expect one of the Ares crew to be Soviet].
N1 not cancelled which means the planned N1 based Mars missions (unmanned & manned) aren't cancelled.
Soviet response to Ares similar to what they did with Apollo: Unmanned rover & sample return and manned flyby. Paid for by money not spent on Buran. Developed in secret/disguise and true purpose only announced when they are successful.
No major USSR Mars successes prior to 1986 - so I pushed everything later.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: RanulfC on 03/04/2016 03:14 PM
Very likely he intended it to be a one off, but I want to be optimistic, lol. 

Well it IS "Book 1 of the NASA Trilogy" you know :) (All three books having nothing to do with each other though) The main point however is that Ares is Apollo taken to it's logical (and extreme) conclusion which ends up being a dead end. It's telling that the book has the passage where someone bemoans the decision to NOT go after a Space Shuttle because that would have changed thing significantly and made the "space program" more affordable/sustainable. The 'in-joke' being we know from our own time line this isn't true, but the other 'in-joke' being how much of what was accomplished in OTL that we lose in order to put flags-and-footprints on Mars and still end up with no clear plan on what comes next. It is a harsh look at the whole idea that if we'd "just kept going" the whole thing would never have stopped which ignores the reality in both time lines.

Well if you get right down to it "Voyage" is nothing but fiction anyway, so you don't have to truly "justify" continuing the time line. But as I'm sure you're already aware, (IIRC you've been on the AH forums :) ) most people who are serious about AH can find numerous flaws in the time line where butterflies have to be replaced with B-52 sized Alien Space Bats to keep things going. In my case I say go for it as I'd like to see what happens. For a good (heck even a fair one to be honest) story I'm willing to suspend a great deal of reality to support the story.

Similarly Baxter required certain things to "happen" to allow the story he wanted to present so he invoked "reasons" for those outcomes, most of which do not stand up to any critical scrutiny, or for that matter any basis in reality (Nerva-II comes to mind) but he required the outcomes so the story took precedence over any other factor. I'd say you can't really go "wrong" if you follow his lead in following up his story :)

Randy
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/04/2016 03:27 PM
Mission Elapsed Time [Day/Hr:Min:Sec] Plus 349/11:14:03 (March 5, 1986)
Two months out, Mars had been the brightest object in the sky save the sun, but still a starlike point. Then — twenty days from orbit insertion — Mars had opened out into a disk. And where the line between light and dark crossed the planet, she could see, with her naked eye, wrinkles and bumps: craters and canyons, catching the light of the sun.
Gradually, as the days had unfolded, she’d made out more and more recognizable detail on the surface. There was the huge gouge of the Valles Marineris — a wound visible even from a million miles out — and the polar cap in the north, swelling with water ice in advance of the coming winter, and the great black calderas of the Tharsis volcanoes.
It was remarkable how much she could recognize. Almost as if she had been here before.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/04/2016 03:42 PM
Very likely he intended it to be a one off, but I want to be optimistic, lol. 

I'd say you can't really go "wrong" if you follow his lead in following up his story :)

Randy

I am looking at one simple line in the book by York during her interview:
"Find water, and there will be lots more flights, guys. Seats for you all. But you need me to find the water."
And since water is discovered by her in the very end of the book, that is where I start that there will be a return, but it will be a long time coming. :)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 03/04/2016 08:51 PM
my own take about the post-1986 Voyage-verse: the MEM was turned into a fat lunar lander and a lunar base was created as the next logical step after Moonlab.
That's how Tim Josephson salvaged the MEM large development cost: build more of them as lunar landers, and the unit cost should drop.
 Without the heavy heatshield and with a much weaker gravity rate, the L-MEM scrapped a lot of propellant tanks and thus there was more room for the crew. 30 days on Mars probably meant much more days on the Moon.

Return to Mars is like our universe Return to the Moon: always ten years in the future.

The Voyage-verse manned space program is just like ours, but one step upward - Ares is like our Apollo, while their lunar base is our ISS (boring, a retreat when compared to Ares)

In both universes NASA takes a step backward
Mars > Moon instead of Moon > low Earth orbit
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: RanulfC on 03/05/2016 12:58 AM
We're also forgetting there actually WAS a "sequel" to Voyage dealing with the British Space Program:
"Prospero One"
http://web.archive.org/web/20050310032846/http://www.cix.co.uk/~sjbradshaw/baxterium/prospero.html

Randy
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: RanulfC on 03/05/2016 01:02 AM
my own take about the post-1986 Voyage-verse: the MEM was turned into a fat lunar lander and a lunar base was created as the next logical step after Moonlab.
That's how Tim Josephson salvaged the MEM large development cost: build more of them as lunar landers, and the unit cost should drop.
 Without the heavy heatshield and with a much weaker gravity rate, the L-MEM scrapped a lot of propellant tanks and thus there was more room for the crew. 30 days on Mars probably meant much more days on the Moon.

Return to Mars is like our universe Return to the Moon: always ten years in the future.

The Voyage-verse manned space program is just like ours, but one step upward - Ares is like our Apollo, while their lunar base is our ISS (boring, a retreat when compared to Ares)

In both universes NASA takes a step backward
Mars > Moon instead of Moon > low Earth orbit

Not a bad idea actually. Though I'd think the Voyage-verse would still end up mostly defaulting to LEO with the Moon being a secondary prize IF they can keep the funding going. I'd also throw in the note that Reagan announced SDI in 1983 and the Ares program capability represents a larger capability than what the Shuttle could have supported which makes it more likely to me that it might get more traction for actual orbital hardware. That having been said I don't see the Soviets reacting at ALL well to such a development, more so than the Shuttle.

Randy
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/05/2016 11:05 AM
We're also forgetting there actually WAS a "sequel" to Voyage dealing with the British Space Program:
"Prospero One"
http://web.archive.org/web/20050310032846/http://www.cix.co.uk/~sjbradshaw/baxterium/prospero.html

Randy

That was a weird sequel/prequel!  LOL.  I have had the plastic to do that model for about 6 months, but haven't started it.  I still haven't figured out how it was really ending. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 03/05/2016 07:54 PM
Btw the MEM used LOX/methane and they actually tested a Sabatier reaction on Mars. For all the pessimism about future manned Mars shots in the book, I felt Baxter opened a door to a sequel there (ISRU = much less fuel = cheaper missions). God knows what happened to Bob Zubrin in the Voyage alternate reality...
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: RanulfC on 03/08/2016 05:23 PM
We're also forgetting there actually WAS a "sequel" to Voyage dealing with the British Space Program:
"Prospero One"
http://web.archive.org/web/20050310032846/http://www.cix.co.uk/~sjbradshaw/baxterium/prospero.html

That was a weird sequel/prequel!  LOL.  I have had the plastic to do that model for about 6 months, but haven't started it.  I still haven't figured out how it was really ending.

Yes and it "fits" (and adds to) the overall depressing nature of the Time Line I'd say. The Brits kept pushing the original Black Arrow launcher because the cost for continuation wasn't that much overall. But a MANNED program with a sizable increase in the launcher AND decades behind both Russia and the US doesn't really sound at all plausible to me.

Notes say that the ending wasn't meant to be as ambiguous as it came out. He survived the reentry and the whole program was closed so it's considered a folly/failure but looked back to "fondly" with a HUGE amount of AH "What could have been" generated in the Voyage-verse :)

Randy
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: RanulfC on 03/08/2016 05:23 PM
Btw the MEM used LOX/methane and they actually tested a Sabatier reaction on Mars. For all the pessimism about future manned Mars shots in the book, I felt Baxter opened a door to a sequel there (ISRU = much less fuel = cheaper missions). God knows what happened to Bob Zubrin in the Voyage alternate reality...

Really? I don't recall that at all but it might make sense for some purposes like generating oxygen for the crew and methane for a rover but I don't see them "topping off" the lander significantly in 30 days. There's a significant power issue due to no use of nuclear power in the Voyage-verse. The lander as I understood it runs on fuel cells using LOX/LH2, so I thought, but even if they use methalox there's not going to be enough power to spare for significant ISRU.
(@6 months to fully fuel the ERV in MD with a nuclear reactor)

I'd discussed with Ronpur50 that most of the current "incentive" for Zubrin to come up with Mars Direct is gone in the Voyage-verse as his main point has always been simply to GET people to Mars. That's already happened in Voyage and there is no groundswell of renewed public or political support for going back or colonization. The main difference is that Zubrin's argument of "that's not how we did Apollo" in regards to orbital assembly and infrastructure building is negated because that's mostly what they DID do for Ares and while OTL Mars Direct uses only two launches to get everything to Mars the nuclear moratorium seriously hinders the architecture due to the power available.

Further it's quite clear that there's little interest at the time for extended or extensive Mars missions anymore than there was for similar expansion for post-Apollo Lunar missions so there is going to a lull no matter what. By the time the Ares crew returns, Reagan will have proposed SDI in 1983 (three years prior) and probably that NASA focus on orbital or Cis-Lunar work in support of that, though actual political and public support, and even administration support, will likely be pretty low. (Reagan is modernizing and building up the military as well and that has priority, so I don't see him actually proposing or supporting another Mars mission) NASA will gladly tie into the SDI program for the money if nothing else. None of this is going to make the Soviet's feel any more secure than they did in OTL.

Then along comes the Soviet Collapse and G.H.W. Bush and his Space Exploration Initiative which with the fall of the Soviet Union may actually include a suggestion of a return to Mars, but the major "problem" with the SEI OTL was the amount of money and effort spent on building an infrastructure in LEO and Cis-Lunar space to support the mission to Mars which Zubrin compared to the "simple and direct" approach of how Apollo was carried out. Again Zubrin's primary goal was (and always has been) to get people to Mars as soon as possible rather than focusing on relying on 'long-term' public or political support. The main fault in MD has always been the assumption that once begun such a program would be more 'difficult' to stop and would automatically engender renewed interest and support from a basically apathetic public and governments. Zubrin's own example of comparing MD to Apollo should be a clue how wrong the former assumption is and the latter is an assumption in OTL with no supporting facts and in the Voyage-verse time line is fully counter-factual.

Voyage-verse is a lot less adverse to orbital assembly and the arguments for fully reusable interplanetary transfer vehicles, landers and such are more potent as well. Throw in that between the end of Ares and the proposal of SEI we may have actually gone back to the Moon already and even if Congress is less than willing to spend "big" on SEI simply keeping things going from Reagan-Bush may in fact build up that very infrastructure anyway.

Which is were/when things get interesting, by the time Clinton get into office, (if the butterflies allow it :) ) you're again looking at a perceived need to keep Russian scientists "employed" so the don't sell themselves to the highest bidder and instead of an ISS a joint Mars mission might look intriguing. On the other hand, I have to point out it might not as well. A Saturn-VB/N-1 based space station using size-appropriate parts might look better depending on the politics.

Randy
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 03/09/2016 10:35 AM
Very interesting answer Ranulf. I'd say (for Clinton) why not a joint lunar base using a modified MEM + Soyuz / Moonlab experience ? Kind of ISS on the Moon...
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: RanulfC on 03/09/2016 05:16 PM
Very interesting answer Ranulf. I'd say (for Clinton) why not a joint lunar base using a modified MEM + Soyuz / Moonlab experience ? Kind of ISS on the Moon...

Well the original goal was to have Clinton be the one to commit to a new Mars mission before York is to old to go back which is what Ronpur50 had in mind. Myself I'm arguing that's probably not going to happen. I can see Clinton suggesting a joint Lunar base or extended expeditions but I don't see Congress paying for it. There's a reason the ISS is what it is and was done the way it was.

Following that "logic" I think if Clinton said Mars, Congress would probably spring for the Moon or LEO. Pessimist me says LEO, but optimist me says they'd probably go for the Moon at this point. It really depends on what Russia can handle at the time.

Randy
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/09/2016 05:31 PM
I am leaning that way myself now.  An ISS on the Moon or in orbit of it would be very likely.  I can see York tirelessly campaigning to return.  Her frustrations growing, knowing she may never return, but just hopes to see someone return in her lifetime. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/18/2016 12:31 PM
One week before the landing of Ares, President Ronald Reagan is seen meeting former President John F. Kennedy in the White House to discuss the mission and the future of NASA.  Kennedy was helped to the chair from his wheelchair by his aides for the photo.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/21/2016 10:00 PM
31 years ago today. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/23/2016 11:48 PM
After over a year in space, Mars would have been looking quite large as Ares approached.

Cameras would have been snapping pictures and live video...delayed of course...would have been streaming on the TV networks and CNN.  The excitement must have been huge!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/24/2016 07:20 PM
A view from the on board camera on Ares as it maneuvers to enter orbit 30 years ago tomorrow.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/25/2016 11:29 AM
Mission Elapsed Time [Day/Hr:Min:Sec] Plus 369/09:27:26 (March 25, 1986)
“Five minutes to the burn.”
She was sealed into her suit, shut in with the hiss of oxygen, the whir of fans, the scratch of her own breathing. She felt isolated, cut off. Lousy design. I need to hold somebody’s hand.
“Okay, Ralph,” Stone said. “Translation control power, on.”
“On.”
“Rotational hand controller number two, armed.”
“Armed.”
“Okay. Stand by for the primary TVC check.”
“Pressures coming up nicely,” Gershon said. “Everything is great…”
A hundred feet behind them, the big MS-II injection stage was rousing from its long, interplanetary hibernation. Heaters in the big cryogenic tanks were boiling off vapor, bringing up a pressure sufficient to force propellant and oxidizer out of the tanks, and Stone and Gershon were running tests of the sequence which would bring the hydrogen and oxygen into explosive combination inside the combustion chambers of the four J-2S engines.
In the window above her, she could see a segment of a circle: bone white in the starlight, quite precise, immense.
“…Oh, my God.”
Stone twisted, awkward in his suit, and peered over his shoulder. “What’s wrong?”
“Look at that. I think it’s Hellas.” The deepest impact crater on Mars. And white, with its frozen lake of carbon dioxide. Somewhere in there, the Soviets had set down Mars 9.
Stone grunted. “You’re going to be looking at that for a long time.” He turned his back, his disapproval evident, and resumed the preburn checklist with Gershon.
“Thirty seconds,” Stone said. “Everything is looking nominal. Still go for MOI.”
He placed his gloved hand over the big plastic firing button.
The whole burn was automated, York knew, controlled by computers in the cluster’s Instrumentation Unit, the big doughnut of electronics behind the Mission Module. Multiple computers, endlessly checking everything and backing each other up and taking polls among themselves. It was hard to see what could go wrong. Nevertheless, Stone sat there with his hand on the button, ready to take over if he had to. To York, it looked comical — and yet, somehow heroic as well. Touching.
“Twenty seconds,” Stone said. “Brace, guys.”
“All systems are go for MOI,” Gershon said.
York checked her own racks. “Roger, go.”
She checked the restraints across her chest, rapidly, and settled her head against her canvas headrest. She tried to make sure there were no creases or folds in the thick layers of the pressure suit under her legs or back.
She felt her heart pound, and chill sweat broke out across her cheeks and under her chin.
“T minus ten seconds,” Gershon said.
Stone’s hands hovered over his controls.
“Eight seconds.”
“I got a 99,” Stone said. He pushed a button. “Press to proceed.”
York felt air rush out of her in a sigh.
“Six seconds,” Gershon said. “Five, four. Ullage.”
There was a brief rattle, a sharp kick in the small of her back. Eight small solid-fuel rockets, clustered around the base of the MS-II, had given the booster a small shove, helping the propellants settle in their tanks.
Gershon said, “Two. One. Ignition.”
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/25/2016 11:30 AM
Mission Elapsed Time [Day/Hr:Min:Sec] Plus 369/09:27:26 (March 25, 1986)

Stone and Gershon began to run through a readout of the status of the maneuver so far.
“Burn time four four five.” Four minutes, forty-five seconds. Halfway through. “Ten values on the angles: BGX minus point one, BGY minus point one, BGZ plus point one…” Velocity errors on the burn were amounting to only a foot per second, along each of the three axes of space. “No trim. Minus six point eight delta-vee-cee. Fuel thirty-eight point eight. Lox thirty-nine zip, plus fifty on balance. We ran an increase on the PUGS. Projected for a two nineteen point nine times twelve six eleven point three…”
York translated the numbers in her head. The burn was working. The cluster was heading for an elliptical orbit, two hundred by twelve thousand miles: almost perfect.
“Hey, Natalie.” It was Gershon.
“What?”
“Look up.”
With an effort, she tilted back her head. The helmet restricted her, and under the acceleration her skull felt as if it had been replaced by a ball of concrete, tearing at her neck muscles.
Through her small window she saw the battered southern plain of Mars.
And the bulging landscape above her was lit up, right at the center, by a soft, pink glow; it was like a highlight on a huge, ocher bowling ball.
It was the glow of the burn, the light of the MS-II.
For the first time in the planet’s four-billion-year history, artificial light had come to the Martian night.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/25/2016 12:12 PM
Ares was in orbit, but the Voyage was not over yet!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 03/25/2016 12:53 PM
Quote
For the first time in the planet’s four-billion-year history, artificial light had come to the Martian night.

THIS is the kind of moments that make Voyage such a great novel
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/26/2016 02:28 AM
 The fat, faithful MS-II injection engine was still evidently the stack’s center of gravity — though the two External Tanks were long discarded — and ahead of it was fixed the slim MS-IVB stage which would brake them back into Earth orbit. The whole of Endeavour, their cylindrical Mission Module with its solar array wings, had been separated from the MS-IVB, turned around and redocked nose first; the idea was to free up the MEM from its shroud at the Mission Module’s base. Meanwhile Discovery, their Apollo, was docked to a lateral port, so it dangled sideways from the Mission Module, like a berry from the line of fuel-tank cylinders.
When Challenger returned to Martian orbit, the MEM would be discarded, and the remaining modules — booster stages, Mission Module, and Apollo — would be reassembled, once more, in a straight line, for the burn home.
The cluster was a collection of cylinders and boxes and panels, crudely assembled — and clumsily repositioned since their entry into Martian orbit. To York, all the orbital construction work — sliding modules through space like kids’ construction blocks — was unnerving. When they separated the Mission Module from the boosters, they were cutting themselves loose from their only ride home, for God’s sake! But she understood that there were backup strategies at every stage, ways they could reassemble some kind of configuration that could tolerate a ride home, even if they lost the landing.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/27/2016 02:41 PM
Mission Elapsed Time [Day/Hr:Min:Sec] Plus 371/01:32:30 (March 27, 1986)
Gershon gave Challenger’s attitude control rockets a final blip, a squirt to make sure they were functional.
Solenoids thumped.
“Everything is copacetic, guys.”
Stone’s face, behind his scuffed faceplate, was set, almost grim. “Good. Then let’s get the hell on with it,” he said.
Gershon grinned.
With a clatter of explosive bolts, Challenger kicked free of the rest of Ares. Then came a brief burn of the retropack, the small solid rocket cluster strapped to the base of the MEM.
The burn knocked Challenger into a new, low orbit around Mars.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/27/2016 02:45 PM
Challenger was committed to Mars.
Suddenly she got an unwelcome sense of perspective, a feeling of how small and fragile the little capsule was. It was different from landing on Earth. On Earth you were descending toward an inhabited planet, toward oceans full of ships waiting to pick you up.
Out here there were only the three of them, jammed up against each other in their little pod, descending toward a dead world. So far from Earth they couldn’t even see it. Out here, they weren’t closing off their journey, coming home; out there, they were pushing out still farther, into extremes of technological capability and risk, so far from Earth that Mission Control couldn’t even speak to them in real time. It was like climbing the ladder one more rung.
But what York felt was not fear, but mostly relief. Another abort threshold crossed. The farther the mission went, the fewer things were left to go wrong.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/27/2016 02:47 PM
PGNS released the craft from the landing program, and Challenger began its final descent.
He picked a little gully, just beyond the landing point, to use as a reference for the craft’s height and motion, and he stared at the gully as he worked toward killing his horizontal velocity. The MEM had to land straight down, with no sideways motion. Otherwise, the touchdown might break off a landing leg.
There was a haze of dust all around the craft, billowing up, obscuring his view, adhering to the window in great ocher streaks.
“Thirty seconds.”
“Any forward drift?”
“You’re okay. Hundred up. Down at three and a half.”
The haze was all around him. And now he could see dust flying away from him in all directions, scouring over the surface. The streaks confused his perception of his motion, the way fog blowing across a runway could sometimes. But he could see a big rock, sticking up through the haze, and he focused on that.
“Sixty feet. Down two. Two forward. Two forward. Good.”
He clicked the descent toggle, killing the speed, until Challenger was floating toward Mars as slow as a feather.
“Fifty feet. Thirty. Down two and a half. We’re kicking up a lot of dust.”
I can see that, damn it. The MEM was drifting backwards, and Gershon couldn’t tell why. And going backwards was bad, because he couldn’t see where he was going. He pulsed the hand controls.
“Twenty.”
Well, he’d killed the backward motion, but a sideways drift had crept in. Fuck. He was frakked with himself. He wasn’t flying his bird smoothly at all.
“Four degrees forward. Three forward. Drifting left a little. Faint shadow.”
The shadow closed up, and dust billowed, so he couldn’t see the ground anymore. He struggled to get the MEM vertical.
He kept falling, blind.
“Four forward. Three forward. Down a half. Drifting left.”
Gershon felt a soft bump.
“Contact light,” Stone said. “Contact light, by God!”
For one second, Gershon stared at Stone.
Then he killed the descent engine, fast.
The vibration that had accompanied the engine firing, all the way down through the powered descent, faded at last. He should have cut it as soon as the contact light came up; if the engine kept firing too close to the surface the back pressure from its own exhaust could blow it up…
Challenger fell the last five feet, and impacted on Mars with a firm thud. Gershon felt the landing in his knees, and every piece of gear in the cabin rattled.
“Shit,” he said.
Stone started to rattle through the post-touchdown checklist. “Engine stop. ACA out of detent.”
“Out of detent.”
“Mode control both auto. Descent engine command override off. Engine arm off…”
They got through the T plus one checkpoint, their first stay/no-stay decision.
And then they had the ship buttoned up tight, and it looked like they could stay for a while.
Out of Gershon’s window there was a flat, close horizon. He could see dunes, and dust, and little rocks littering the surface. Nothing was moving, anywhere. Without buildings, or people or trees, it was hard to tell the scale of things. The sky was yellow-brown, the sun small and yellow and low. The light coming in the window was a mix of pink and brown, and he could see how it reflected off his visor, and off the flesh of his own cheeks.
Martian light, on his face.
He saw Stone grin, behind his faceplate. “Houston, this is Mangala Valles. Challenger has landed on Mars.” Gershon could hear the confident elation in his voice.
Gershon and Stone and York shook hands, and slapped each other on the back, and threw mock punches at each other’s helmets.
Gershon said, “Houston, can you pass on my regards to Columbia Aviation. This old Edsel has brought us down. JK, you are one steely-eyed missile man.”
He checked his station. He had fourteen seconds of landing fuel left. Well, the hell with it. Fourteen seconds is a long time. Armstrong himself only had about twenty seconds left, and nobody beefed about that.
Anyhow, it’s going to be a long time before anyone comes back, to better what I did today.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/27/2016 02:50 PM
Suddenly she got an unwelcome sense of perspective, a feeling of how small and fragile the little capsule was. It was different from landing on Earth. On Earth you were descending toward an inhabited planet, toward oceans full of ships waiting to pick you up.
Out here there were only the three of them, jammed up against each other in their little pod, descending toward a dead world. So far from Earth they couldn’t even see it. Out here, they weren’t closing off their journey, coming home; out there, they were pushing out still farther, into extremes of technological capability and risk, so far from Earth that Mission Control couldn’t even speak to them in real time. It was like climbing the ladder one more rung.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 03/27/2016 04:44 PM
great stuff Ron!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 03/27/2016 05:36 PM
Quote
“Contact light, by God!”
For one second, Gershon stared at Stone.

The moment when the unflappable Commander Phil Stone cracks open and give away some emotion  ;D
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: AlexA on 03/30/2016 11:40 AM
After over a year in space, Mars would have been looking quite large as Ares approached.

Cameras would have been snapping pictures and live video...delayed of course...would have been streaming on the TV networks and CNN.  The excitement must have been huge!

The mission module solar panels seem to be edge-on to the sun in this shot - not much good for power generation! If one assumes they can't rotate (as per SkyLab I believe), would the Ares stack have spent most of it's journey 'flying sideways'?
Related question, would the MM need a radiator? On SkyLab this was at the base, which is not available on Ares.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/30/2016 03:26 PM


After over a year in space, Mars would have been looking quite large as Ares approached.

Cameras would have been snapping pictures and live video...delayed of course...would have been streaming on the TV networks and CNN.  The excitement must have been huge!

The mission module solar panels seem to be edge-on to the sun in this shot - not much good for power generation! If one assumes they can't rotate (as per SkyLab I believe), would the Ares stack have spent most of it's journey 'flying sideways'?
Related question, would the MM need a radiator? On SkyLab this was at the base, which is not available on Ares.

Yep, it would have spent most of the flight sideways, except when they needed to do course changes.  The chrome on the outside of the MM on my model is supposed to be the radiators, of a type that looks like the shuttles.  I don't think Baxter mentioned them.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/30/2016 03:27 PM
It was time.
She said, “I’ll step off the footpad now.”
She held on to the ladder with her right hand and leaned out to the left. She raised her left boot over the lip of the footpad, pushed it out a little way, and — silently, carefully — lowered it to the dust.
Nobody spoke; Stone, Gershon, remote Earth. It was as if the whole of creation was focused on her, on this moment.
She tested her weight, bouncing on her left boot in the gentle gravity. The Martian regolith was firm enough to hold her. As she had known it would be.
She was standing with one foot on this clumsy artifact from Earth, the other on the virgin terrain of Mangala. She looked around, briefly, at the empty landscape, framed by the rounded rim of her faceplate, and she could see the play of soft ocher light over her nose and cheeks, the flesh of a human face, here on Mars.
Holding on to the ladder, she placed her right foot on the ground. Then, cautiously, she let go of the ladder. She was standing freely on Mars.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/30/2016 03:29 PM
“…Natalie?”
She hadn’t said anything, she realized.
She turned to Challenger. The human artifact was a squat, white-painted toy, diminished by the distance she had come; the sun made the sky glow behind it. She could still see the pearl-gray interior of the airlock, embedded at the center of the MEM, and above that she could make out the fat cylinder of the ascent stage, with its propellant tanks clustered like berries around a stalk.
There was a single set of footsteps, crisp in the duricrust, leading from Challenger to where she stood, beyond the circular splash of dust from the MEM’s landing rocket. They looked like the first steps on a beach after a receded tide; they were the only footsteps on the planet.
By God, she thought, we’re here. We came for all the wrong reasons, and by all the wrong methods, but we’re here, and that’s all that matters. And we’ve found soil, and sunlight, and air, and water.
She said: “I’m home.”
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/30/2016 03:31 PM
And that, is the end of the book.   But not the coverage of the mission.  I have more photos prepared all the way to splashdown in November.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 03/30/2016 04:27 PM
November 6, 1986 !

I did a quick search on Wikipedia and it confirmed my doubts that OTL November 1986 was not different from the year as whole - shitty, gritty, and scarying.

Quote
November 3

 Iran–Contra affair: The Lebanese magazine Ash-Shiraa reports that the United States has been selling weapons to Iran in secret, in order to secure the release of 7 American hostages held by pro-Iranian groups in Lebanon.
 

November 4 – Democrats regain control of the United States Senate for the first time in 6 years.

Bad times for Reagan it seems. The return of the Mars crew will be a welcome distraction  :)

Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/09/2016 03:35 PM
I have worked at this one for a while.  After a few days of EVAs, the crew has set up a AMSEP(Ares Mars Surface Experiment Package) and deployed robotic rovers.  Also, a rover for the crew has been deployed.  Each EVA was only 4 hours.  The robot came in handy for exploration, since it could be done by the crew from inside Challenger.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/10/2016 02:02 AM
Cover of Time magazine showing York on Mars.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 04/10/2016 12:50 PM
Good stuff Ron
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/21/2016 12:01 AM
After 3 weeks on the surface of Mars, the crew of the Challenger is 3 days from lifting off to return to their orbiting spacecraft. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/23/2016 03:11 AM
High above the surface of Mars, the currently unmanned Ares spacecraft awaits the return of it's crew.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/23/2016 03:13 AM
April 23, 1986: After nearly a month on the surface of Mars, Stone, Gershon and York lift off in Challenger's ascent stage.  This still is from the Crew Rover's TV camera.  The rover's tracks to it's parking spot can be seen on the surface.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/23/2016 03:18 AM
After reaching orbit, Challenger docks with Endeavour, it's fuel tanks depleted and discarded.  The crew returns to the mission module and begins to transfer samples to storage for the return home.  They will the begin to prepare Ares for Trans-Earth Injection.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 04/23/2016 04:30 PM
Nice stuff Ron.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/23/2016 10:30 PM
Today the crew rearranged the spacecraft, first by jettisoning Challenger and then undocking Discovery.  The Endeavour undocked and does it's flip again so Discovery can dock at the nose, getting Ares ready for departure!

Ares then fires the four engines of the MS-II for the last time to begin the TEI burn.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 04/23/2016 10:31 PM
After the remaining fuel in the MS-II stage is used up, it is discarded and the MS-IVB stage fires for the first time.  Ares has begun it's return to Earth!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 08/19/2016 12:51 PM
Only a few months until Ares returned to Earth.  None of this is covered by the Voyage novel.  But, we have wondered how things would have gone.  Would there be problems with the spacecraft?  Illness with the crew?  I often wonder, giving the way Baxter wrote, would he have had them die before returning home?  LOL.

For my version of events, post Ares, a failure of the solar arrays on Endeavour force the crew to only draw power from the MS-IVB stage.  Putting the ship in low power mode, something that was planned for.  Science that was planned for the return flight gets cancelled, and worries about the J-2 engine have the crew prepare for a direct descent, a very risky plan.  Instead of entering high Earth orbit with the entire vehicle, they separate in the CSM and re-enter directly.  This would mean that the Ares would continue on past Earth, and no mission to retrieve the bulk of the Mars samples would occur.  Can the crew make it home safe?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 08/19/2016 12:55 PM
There has been interest eleswhere in having an embroidered version of the Ares patch made.  I, as of yet, have no idea how much they would cost.  Is there any interest from anybody here of purchasing a patch?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 08/23/2016 08:29 AM
Potentially, yes. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 08/23/2016 10:44 AM
I have two patch artist that are interested in seeing it made.  They know how to make patches, and have ideas on changes.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 08/24/2016 04:23 AM
Since it's a landing, perhaps the MEM in the corner
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 08/24/2016 06:14 AM
I'm very tempted to buy one...
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: tea monster on 08/24/2016 11:19 AM
This has been a hell of a project! Excellent work on all the media.

What have you got lined up next?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 08/24/2016 11:58 AM
Well, hopefully, the Ares patch works out.  And then I have some items for the return of Discovery.   And I still plan on doing the NERVA Mars vehicle and one with an Orion attached.   But, that may be a bit in the future, I have a Soviet Lunar Lander to build!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/01/2016 01:17 PM
This is the revised Ares patch and I am very happy with the result.  We are looking into the cost to produce it, so if anyone is interested, please let me know so I can get a handle on how many to produce. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/15/2016 03:10 AM
The final version of the Ares mission patch and the first sample.  Having been a patch collector since 1978, I am excited to have this look like it will work out.  And should be about $6 each when done.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/02/2016 02:07 AM
Only 6 days from homecoming, the Ares crew snaps a photo of Earth from the window of their habitat module, Endeavour.  The vehicle will fire it's J-2M engine on the MS-IVB stage to enter Earth orbit.  If this fails, they must board the CSM Discovery and use it's SPS engine to make an emergency re-entry. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/02/2016 02:15 AM
When the J-2M engine works, Ares will enter high orbit one day before splash down.  The crew will then board the CSM Discovery and prepare for de-orbit.  The Ares will remain in orbit and a recovery crew will launch on a Saturn 1B and recover the remaining samples and other experiments not brought down with the crew.  They would also evaluate the ship after it's time in deep space to learn about how it deteriorated.  These lessons would be applied to future spacecraft.*




*this is not part of the book, just speculation for why the ship was left in orbit.




Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/06/2016 01:23 AM
One day before splashdown, Ares returns to Earth orbit.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/06/2016 12:37 PM
In high earth orbit, Discovery undocks with all that remains of Ares and prepairs to come home.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/06/2016 12:38 PM
A short time later, the capsule is under the chutes and ready for spalshdown!!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/06/2016 12:40 PM
The USS Belleau Wood stands by for recovery.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/06/2016 12:46 PM
Divers with Discovery, attaching tow cables to bring it into the Wood's dock.  The crew will stay onboard and be helped out once the spacecraft is secure.

All of the splashdown and recovery is total speculation, as it was never seen in the book.  I find it highly unlikely that the Mission Module would continue to perform flawlessly on the return.  I am sure some emergency may have happened, power failure, life support failures or whatever.

The parachutes are from Orion as is the recovery techniques. 

This is the final image I have done for Voyage, so far.  My patches arrive next week! 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/06/2016 12:51 PM
Here is a little story I wrote about the recovery:

November 6, 1986: Pacific Ocean

   The ocean waves slapped up against the outside of Discovery.  Seawater sometimes splashed the window in spacecraft.  The small capsule rocked in the sea as Natalie York looked out her window at blue sky for the first time in over 20 months.  She tried to lift her head to look out the window directly, but she felt like an elephant was sitting on it.  No, make that three elephants.  The force of Earth's gravity was back, and she was feeling it now.  After so much time in weightlessness in the Mission Module, it was hoped that the rigorous exercising the crew did would help them recover faster.  It was a bit easier to recover when they reached Mars, but her muscles still ached after her first Mars walk.  By the end of the 24 days on the surface, she felt like she was born on Mars, and never wanted to leave. Actually, she had, in a way, always felt like she belonged on Mars. Her now world famous “I'm Home” quote was truer than most people believed.
   “You OK, Nat?” Gershon asked her.
   What a question.  How could she answer that.  Their mission was a huge success, she had walked on Mars, fulfilled the dream of her life and now returned to what would surely be a heroes welcome at the age of 38.  A major power failure on the return journey had caused major concerns for the crew.  Two of the Ares's solar panels failed, forcing the crew to curtail power usage.  Experiments on the Martian samples stopped and no more hot showers. They were forced to open panels to re-wire the spacecraft in flight, and were able to make sure they would have enough power to fire the J-2M engine and enter Earth orbit.  They avoided a direct re-entry that would have required them to leave many of their hard earned samples behind.  Now, all of the samples from Mars would be retrieved by another crew launching on a Saturn 1B. 
   After all of this, the question arose in her mind “Now what?'' and it scared her.
   
   York's train of thought was interrupted by a thumping on the hatch.  An US Navy frogman had dropped from a SH-60 Seahawk helicopter and was knocking on their hatch to see if they were alright.  The first human being they had seen since they left Earth 20 months earlier.
   Phil Stone manage to lift an arm and give him a thumbs up.
   “We're home, guys.  Welcome to Earth.” he said. 
   
   They heard a few more thumps on the outside of their capsule.   Frogmen were climbing it, attaching tow cables to the top and a flotation collar around the base.  The cable was from the US Navy amphibious assault ship USS Belleau Wood.  They would be towed inside the ship, where they could be isolated and removed on stretchers, since their bodies would be too weak to walk out on their own.
   But before that began, the hatch opened briefly and a package containing 3 Biological Isolation Garments were tossed inside.  They would have to manage to get out of their flight-suits and into the garments before their spacecraft could be opened and they disembarked.  Not an easy task inside the bobbing ship, that was rapidly rising in temperature.
   Unstrapping from her seat, York dropped down to the bottom on the capsule and began removing her flight coveralls.  They had not worn their heavy space suits for splashdown, which made this task much simpler.  The plan was for her to change first while the guys waited above, then they would switch, a needless attempt to maintain her privacy.  She had long ago given up that in the almost two year flight. 
   By the time all three had managed to get into their BIGs, the tow cables had been attached to Discovery and the Navy personnel on board the Wood had begun to pull them into the landing dock.  Gravity was not kind to them.  The change of garments had worn them out.  The three of them collapsed onto their couches and the rocking of the spacecraft in the waves did not agree with Natalie's inner ears.  She felt the nausea creeping up and removed her mask and grabbed a plain white bag from the storage pouch next to her couch.  She quickly filled it with the contents of her stomach as she retched.
   After she finished, she sealed the bag and dropped it to the floor of the cabin. 
   “I wonder if they will want to analyze that?' she joked. 
   “I think they will have enough stuff to look at, Nat.” Ralph replied, feeling a little green himself. 
   In a few minutes, they felt the capsule bump into the loading ramp of the  Belleau Wood.  Sailors scrambled outside the Discovery, making sure she was sliding onto the rollers that would place her onto the specially designed support frame that would secure her for the return to San Diego.  Once the tiny gumdrop shaped capsule was secure, they heard the crew begin to open the hatch, for the first time since March 1985, Discovery's hatch was about to fully open. 
   Light from the outside streamed into their tiny ship as hatch cracked open, then it swung wide, and they were greeted by the masked face of Joe Muldoon.  He reached in and grabbed each of their gloved hands, shaking them vigorously.
   “Welcome home, Martians!” he exclaimed. “So glad to see you guys again!”
   “Glad to be home.” Phil Stone replied.     
   “You said it, Phil!” Ralph chimed in. “I need a beer!”
   “How 'bout you Nat?  Glad to be home?” Muldoon asked.
   “Yeah, I guess.  Home.....” she sighed as she replied.  For some reason, she felt like she would never feel at home now. 

   
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 11/06/2016 06:50 PM
Nice ending Ron.  Sad to see it end.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/06/2016 11:00 PM
To me, it brings home just how long a Voyage to Mars would be.  I have my doubts this would have work.  So many things could have gone wrong, but they did spend years testing systems on Skylab and Moonlab.  And developing upgraded J-2 engines and systems for storing fuel long term.  He never says what they really are.

We know far more today than we did in the 1990s when Baxter wrote this book about long term effects on the crew of zero gravity.  We still haven't figure out how to deal with it very well.  It would not be very helpful to spend a year going to Mars and then the crew can not function.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 11/07/2016 12:53 PM
I had forgotten that November 6 marked their return date ! Nice stuff, as usual. I always felt that, once the Berlin wall crumbled Natalie would marry Viktorenko (the only person on Earth that could understand how she felt, bar the dead Ben priest)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/07/2016 05:52 PM
I had forgotten that November 6 marked their return date ! Nice stuff, as usual. I always felt that, once the Berlin wall crumbled Natalie would marry Viktorenko (the only person on Earth that could understand how she felt, bar the dead Ben priest)

I always saw him as more of a father figure, the older mentor. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 11/07/2016 06:08 PM
I wouldn't discount the possibility, but he is as probably old as Muldoon.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/07/2016 06:38 PM
He flew on Voskhod 3, so basically Leonov's age.  He would have been born in 1928, and York was born in 1948.  She had some interesting conversations with Bleeker, so, if his wife leaves him after he is grounded, I think York could end up with him.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 11/07/2016 10:44 PM
Nope.  Not Bleeker.  :)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/08/2016 10:08 PM
Nope.  Not Bleeker.  :)

I really like Adam Bleeker in the book, he was very intelligent and capable.  You don't get as many flights as he did and be incompetent.  But, he was rather analytical and cold.  So. maybe not York's type.

But in the BBC Audio, he was played as just a bit smarted then Gomer Pyle.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/08/2016 10:13 PM
I had to update a few photos with the new patch design.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/10/2016 10:10 PM
Oh, wow, the patches turned out great!!  I have extras, if anyone wants them.  $6 shipped, just PM me.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 11/11/2016 12:22 PM
Hey guys.

  I lurked this thread since seeing Chris P. Bacon's video, and I gotta say it's great to see a lot of work put into a mission I think is pretty awesome and many times I wish it was real.  Apollo to Mars is no small feat.  Too bad in the book, so much to sacrificed to make it happen.*

  Come to say that I have actually put together my own Ares mission in KSP and plan to put the finishing touches on the craft before I attempt to fly it.  I'm doing the Realism Overhaul mods and RSS, and using other mods that give me all of the craft I need to make this as authentic as possible.  I've been wanting to fly this mission in a game since seeing RSFerino's video way back, and soon I'll be among the ones that have done it.

  I have a thread in the KSP forums of my work: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/146593-another-voyage-ares-mission-and-a-kspers-crash-course-in-realism-overhaul/&page=1  You can see some screenshots and a diary of my progress along with the author of the MEM mod I'll be using.  He was a huge help in making this possible by updating his mod and adding a few cool features to his MEM.  I should note that my MEM will use airbrakes, which may not be canon to Voyage, but I hope you guys can forgive me for that.

  Finally, I want to livestream my mission.  I'm not sure when I will do it, but hopefully soon.  I'll be doing it on Twitch.  If you want to watch a KSP player attempt the Ares mission, you're all invited.

  I'm hoping in the end, I can make a video and some documentation of the craft and mission, maybe like a press kit or diagrams you guys created detailing my craft specs and mission plans down to abort modes and time stamps.  We'll see what I can do.  Lacking MS Office is a bit of a setback but I guess I can use Open Office.

  Anyway, just saying great work here and that you've inspired and helped quite a few people make this world come to life including myself.  I definitely want to fly more missions from this book including Moonlab, Apollo-N, and even the nine assembly flights.  I'm even planning on a post-Ares mission to Titan (what if NASA gets even bolder and decides to risk it all for a mission to Saturn's mysterious moon?)  This won't be from the book Titan (I haven't read that at all and it sounds depressing), but more like a Titan mission in the Voyage-verse.

  Anyway, I'll leave you with a few screenshots from my months of practice and development.

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/259346498855130700/47C4374DE35DC60650CCEA0256B4F988D3357986/)

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/259344790743296688/8B394D1C3369EC723E5642742C219CB04FD20CBE/)

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/259344790720536908/D7FA914BED8CA7D4B459CAA36CB6F8203753800A/)

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/259344790720537669/2D3F380EFACA8152022CD24343E106CA2630A436/)

  Hope you guys don't mind me borrowing some of your designs for my craft and combining them with what I think the Ares might have looked like.

*I don't own the book, but I did read most of it it online from a Russian site.  I can't afford to buy a copy, or I would and reference it, but I haven't had to do much of that thanks to this thread and other online sources.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/11/2016 12:41 PM
That is fantastic!  I can't wait to see your version of it.  Use whatever you like, this is a labor of love of this book.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 11/12/2016 02:43 AM
Yeah.  I just love the challenge of Apollo to Mars with a Venus fly-by.

I feel the plan would be a bit insane IRL though, and there are ways to improve this mission.  Still, Baxter did a great job with scientific accuracy.

Personally, I feel Eyes Turned Skyward is a more realistic alt-history NASA.  No Mars missions in that, but also no Space Shuttle.  The Saturn V gets cancelled, but the Saturn 1B gets updated with a F-1A-powered first stage (Saturn 1C) and redesigned Apollo CSM (Block III), and NASA sticks to a long-term plan of space stations.  It's more of a compromise between these two worlds.  On the plus side, we go back to the moon in the '90s and establish bases there (on something called the Saturn Multibody and Saturn Heavy and the EOR approach), but no Mars mission.  It's interesting if you like alt history, and it's free for reading online (thought I don't know where).
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/12/2016 03:49 AM
It is on the Alt History Forum.  It is a very interesting timeline and amazing graphics.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 11/12/2016 05:46 AM
Yeah.  It's a really great read.

KSP has some craft for it in mods.  May work on some of those missions after I do the Baxter ones.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: MATTBLAK on 11/12/2016 06:27 AM
Nittany Tiger; second hand paperback copies of Baxter's 'Voyage' can be brought on Ebay or Amazon.com for very little. In many cases, the postage will cost more than the book but even that wouldn't be too bad for a single paperback ;)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: MATTBLAK on 11/12/2016 07:13 AM
And Baxter's 'Titan' is a great book - but it is a grim, dystopic read at times. I think portraying the book's Titan mission would be an interesting thing to do. Perhaps you could do a sequel to the Baxter/Ares Mars mission? Imagine a scenario whereby they do a second, one-off mission to ameliorate all the hardware investment. Short stay or long stay mission scenarios can be investigated, though I imagine that even on the second mission, NASA would not be ready for a 500 day surface stay. Perhaps the trajectories could be 'tweaked' to allow a surface stay longer than the original Ares mission with York, Stone and Gershon, which was to be only 30 days. A stay of perhaps as long as 40-45 days?

How? Design Reference Mission? Timeframe - in the late 1980's?

1: A cargo and Descent-only MEM is designed to leave Low Earth orbit alongside the crewed Mission Module/propulsion stack on another, smaller propulsion stack. This time; the crew is 4x Astronauts not 3 as before. This will become apparent later. More enhanced Saturn V launches, yes - but this IS a fantasy, alt-history scenario after all.

2: Upon arrival in Martian orbit, the Cargo MEM is sent unmanned down to the landing site first. If it arrives safely, the Prime Mission can proceed. The Crewed MEM lands close as possible to the Cargo MEM, which is carrying more supplies, tools, experiments and power generators - fuel cells and RTG units for power, which could be run to the crew MEM by extension cabling. Maybe even a larger, more capable Mars Roving Vehicle could be carried to allow further travels from the base site. Or merely two identical Rovers that could act as a redundant 'rescue' vehicle to tow back a broken down Rover if it is too far away for walkback constraints. The crew of four could conduct 'tag team' EVAs for more than 30 days, maximizing the amount of surface exploration time. Perhaps two of the crew could even live apart in the Cargo MEM so as to minimize the crowding 4 would have in only one MEM.

3: With uprated or optimized Ascent systems propulsion over the first Ares crew's MEM, the second Ares crew's MEM is powerful enough to raise 4x Astronauts and an improved quantity of Martian regolith and rocks back to the Ares Mission Module waiting in Martian orbit. Then, it's time to return to Earth...
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 11/12/2016 03:10 PM
I enjoyed Eyes Turned Skyward, but found it unbelievable due to the actual events of the real time line.  Baxter's seemed much more believable.  I did like the return to the moon aspects, but space stations are so dull.  They just go round and round.  Not high adventure, unlike the early days of Vostok, Mercury, Voskshod, Soyuz, Gemini, and Apollo.  Not going anywhere.

useful things can be done in LOE, don't get me wrong. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 11/12/2016 07:03 PM
And Baxter's 'Titan' is a great book - but it is a grim, dystopic read at times. I think portraying the book's Titan mission would be an interesting thing to do.

If I've read the synopsis properly, Titan's mission is a bunch of grav assists with Lagrange points (Interplanetary Transfer Network), and KSP's gravity model doesn't simulate Lagrange points unless you download an experimental mod which may or may not work in RSS.  That might be why no-one has done the mission yet.  It's also a one-way trip, and I'd want them to come back.

Quote
Perhaps you could do a sequel to the Baxter/Ares Mars mission? Imagine a scenario whereby they do a second, one-off mission to ameliorate all the hardware investment. Short stay or long stay mission scenarios can be investigated, though I imagine that even on the second mission, NASA would not be ready for a 500 day surface stay. Perhaps the trajectories could be 'tweaked' to allow a surface stay longer than the original Ares mission with York, Stone and Gershon, which was to be only 30 days. A stay of perhaps as long as 40-45 days?

How? Design Reference Mission? Timeframe - in the late 1980's?

1: A cargo and Descent-only MEM is designed to leave Low Earth orbit alongside the crewed Mission Module/propulsion stack on another, smaller propulsion stack. This time; the crew is 4x Astronauts not 3 as before. This will become apparent later. More enhanced Saturn V launches, yes - but this IS a fantasy, alt-history scenario after all.

2: Upon arrival in Martian orbit, the Cargo MEM is sent unmanned down to the landing site first. If it arrives safely, the Prime Mission can proceed. The Crewed MEM lands close as possible to the Cargo MEM, which is carrying more supplies, tools, experiments and power generators - fuel cells and RTG units for power, which could be run to the crew MEM by extension cabling. Maybe even a larger, more capable Mars Roving Vehicle could be carried to allow further travels from the base site. Or merely two identical Rovers that could act as a redundant 'rescue' vehicle to tow back a broken down Rover if it is too far away for walkback constraints. The crew of four could conduct 'tag team' EVAs for more than 30 days, maximizing the amount of surface exploration time. Perhaps two of the crew could even live apart in the Cargo MEM so as to minimize the crowding 4 would have in only one MEM.

3: With uprated or optimized Ascent systems propulsion over the first Ares crew's MEM, the second Ares crew's MEM is powerful enough to raise 4x Astronauts and an improved quantity of Martian regolith and rocks back to the Ares Mission Module waiting in Martian orbit. Then, it's time to return to Earth...

Not a bad idea, but I don't know if you can tweak the stay time.  With space flights, you're at the mercy of orbital mechanics and you don't get much flexibility with your time windows unless you find a better way there (i.e. a new propulsion method).  NERVA is out for anything Voyage, so it's either another opposition-class mission for the short stay, a long stay, or find a new way to push the craft there (maybe ion or plasma gets developed.)

A cargo mission for a base could do a direct transfer to Mars.  No need for the Venus swingby, and much less fuel needed.  Maybe do it in one or two Saturn V-B launches.  Furthermore, if you're sending supplies to Mars, why not set up a base?  It would justify a second expensive Ares mission, and this time it could go straight to Mars.  With the budget NASA gets in the book though, it might not happen until the 21st century, if it happens at all.

Quote from: mike robel
enjoyed Eyes Turned Skyward, but found it unbelievable due to the actual events of the real time line.  Baxter's seemed much more believable.  I did like the return to the moon aspects, but space stations are so dull.  They just go round and round.  Not high adventure, unlike the early days of Vostok, Mercury, Voskshod, Soyuz, Gemini, and Apollo.  Not going anywhere.

"Going nowhere" is pretty much the real life space program right now.  We haven't gone back to the moon in over 40 years, and we're not planning on going back anytime soon.  We were in LEO with the Space Shuttle since the Apollo days with Spacelab, Mir, and then the ISS, and now we're trying to get our manned capabilities back hoping the SLS doesn't get canned and private industry can fill the need for LEO manned capsules (and take us back to the moon and go to Mars).  LEO and space stations might be boring from an exploration standpoint, but they're cheaper and more likely to get congressional funding than huge missions like Ares.  It's the sad truth.

ETS is less exciting than Voyage, but IMO it's more realistic because congress and NASA would more happily go with ETS's missions than Voyage's.  We'd still have our robotic missions to Venus, Mars, the outer planets, and so on, and even return to the moon.  We just wouldn't have the Space Shuttle, which was a dead end anyway.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to explore the solar system.  I think we should send humans to every place we can so we can figure out how to live on other planets and maybe other solar systems.  It's crucial to our long-term survival.  It's just that no-one wants to pay for it right now except for a few hopeful entrepreneurs.  I was originally intrigued by Voyage's Ares mission and wish we had done this, but only if we had also got our robotic missions like Viking and Voyager 1 and 2 as well.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: MATTBLAK on 11/12/2016 09:04 PM
You might be right about sending the cargo mission on a fast transit first - though if it were to do a fast entry, it would need an upgraded heat shield and a bit more delta v for landing; I wouldn't want to sacrifice the downmass capability of the Cargo MEM with a heavier heatshield and more propellants. Probably best if it just made a standard Hohmann transfer to Mars, a propulsive capture into orbit and a standard descent, albeit unmanned. If a second Ares mission were doing long stay; then the Cargo MEM would need to carry a small nuclear reactor and maybe an inflatable surface Habitat that could attach to the Crew MEM. And a separate Cargo pallet lander for more supplies? Because I don't think a second cargo MEM would be practical.

Sending a cargo MEM to Mars (about 50 tons) would need what sort of propulsion stack? I'm thinking just a single refueled S-II departure stage with no external tanks and a single S-IVB to brake into Martian orbit if it were a fast transit. If a slow trajectory were chosen; say 9 or 11 months instead of six - then what about a single S-IVB for departure and an Apollo Service Module derivative with all six bay segments fitted with propellant tanks (29 tons capacity) for capturing into Martian orbit?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 11/13/2016 11:30 PM
You might be right about sending the cargo mission on a fast transit first - though if it were to do a fast entry, it would need an upgraded heat shield and a bit more delta v for landing; I wouldn't want to sacrifice the downmass capability of the Cargo MEM with a heavier heatshield and more propellants. Probably best if it just made a standard Hohmann transfer to Mars, a propulsive capture into orbit and a standard descent, albeit unmanned. If a second Ares mission were doing long stay; then the Cargo MEM would need to carry a small nuclear reactor and maybe an inflatable surface Habitat that could attach to the Crew MEM. And a separate Cargo pallet lander for more supplies? Because I don't think a second cargo MEM would be practical.

Sending a cargo MEM to Mars (about 50 tons) would need what sort of propulsion stack? I'm thinking just a single refueled S-II departure stage with no external tanks and a single S-IVB to brake into Martian orbit if it were a fast transit. If a slow trajectory were chosen; say 9 or 11 months instead of six - then what about a single S-IVB for departure and an Apollo Service Module derivative with all six bay segments fitted with propellant tanks (29 tons capacity) for capturing into Martian orbit?

You can increase the cargo mass of the MEM if you use chutes, ballutes, airbrakes, and other implementations.  Actually practicing the landing, I found that it would take quite a bit of fuel to do a landing without chutes and ballutes, and I the MEM mod maker came up with turning the side heat shields into airbrakes that fold out, and they work well.  Boggles my mind why Baxter ditched chutes and ballutes (and I forgot the reason he did in the book).  The good news is that the Saturn VB can still lift a heavier MEM (if the Saturn VB in the book used the SRBs I used, which are UA1564s (156in motors), and these might be too powerful), so it's not out of the question than the Voyage MEM had more fuel than the real life proposed one.  I personally deviated from the book here because there's not a lot of space to fit extra fuel and I still want to add a rover to my MEM, and I don't know if the propulsion stack can carry the heavier MEM to Mars and still have enough delta V to do the whole.  I'm leaving some stuff in the air to keep this fun.

As far what it takes to get the cargo MEM there with just Saturn V parts, I don't know at this time.  Might take as little as just an MS-II or two or three MS-IVBs stacked on top of each other.  This is a rough guess and your guesses might be more accurate.

Finally, I thought about the logistical and political effects of another Ares, and I actually realized that making the second flight a long-stay is probably a bad idea.  You do want to convince funders to make a base, but doing it right after you only did a short-stay mission is too risky and expensive I would think.  You'd have to send much more supplies, more expensive equipment, and maybe regular supply trips.  I would think the best NASA could do is a proving mission like you mentioned where they would send an unmanned MEM first and then another manned Ares on an opposition mission (Venus swingby) to do a slightly longer stay to prove habitation tech.  This of course if the first mission didn't cause the crew malicious health effects from long-duration space flight and radiation exposure which would kill any hope of a future mission (don't want another Apollo-N after all).  All of this being highly optimistic that Congress will even approve a second Ares at all.  The first mission would have to be the driver for any future missions.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 11/14/2016 11:32 AM
I just had a realization about what it would take to send a cargo MEM to Mars.

The Saturn VB has the payload capacity to lift a MEM, Skylab (Ares Mission Module), and Apollo CSM to orbit (and still have about 1000 m/s delta V left or more since I'm not the best at making orbits).  If you're just wanting to lift an MEM, you don't need to worry about the AMM and CSM.  You'd have enough room on one Saturn VB for a MEM and a MS-IVB.  Furthermore, Saturn VBs use J-2Ss, which were supposed to have three restarts.  If you put that on the MS-II, you'd could loft that, an MS-IVB, and cargo MEM in orbit, then relight the MS-II if you have spare fuel for a Trans-Mars (Trans-Arean?) injection and then the MS-IVB to push it on and brake it at Mars before you land the MEM.

So, you'd just need one single Saturn VB launch to launch a cargo MEM to Mars.  Easy and straightforward.

I think I will do an Ares 2 when I finish this Ares in the style of a Mars base precursor.  Either that, or Apollo to Titan.  I'll detail that on the KSP forums because I don't want to hijack Ronpur's thread more than I have already.  Basically, I would think it would only happen in this world if Ares 1 ends favorably and maybe Russia lends some money for a couple of spots on the trip as mentioned earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/14/2016 11:55 AM
I have been trying, unsuccessfully, to write "Beyond Ares" that shows what happens to the crew after they return.  So far, it involves only York.  The passage of the splashdown is part of it.  So far, I have some nice moments from the world wide tour they take, her meeting Neil Armstrong, Russia, White house dinner with the Reagans and Bush.  Here Bush asks her to serve on the Space Council when he gets elected.  They also meet JFK shortly before his death. 

Why I would love to see Ares 2, I envision a Lunar infrastructure.  A small shuttle to fly crew to a space station, which Gershon gets to test fly. Then a reusable Apollo taxi to a Lagrange point lunar station that has a reusable lander to go to the surface.  The Russians join the base plan during the Clinton years, using their upgrade N-1 to help in construction.  Then a lunar base that in 20 years, becomes a colony on the moon.  So by "today" we would have a 100 person base on the moon.  It would be then, with commercial flights to the base and the rise of those companies, like we see today, that plans to go to Mars return.  And with the experience of the Moonbase (Chaffee Base) that those plans become colonial. 

The final chapter has an elderly York, in 2030, watching the launch of one of those colony ships with her son, Ben.  So, like our Apollo program, we retreat from deep space to the moon, and only after decades of staying in lunar space, do we get back to Mars.  Sort of like how we retreat from the moon to low earth orbit.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/14/2016 10:59 PM
I have been told that the Ares patch shows up in Baxter's recent novel, Ultima.  Apparently it deals with an alternate timeline where Ares crashed.  It seams to be a story about multiverses.  And this crashed Ares timeline is just a quick mention.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 11/15/2016 12:03 AM
I just got the patches I ordered from Ron.  The pictures do not do them justice. If you are fan of the book, you should get them and perhaps stick them inside the book.  :)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 11/15/2016 11:44 AM
To me, it brings home just how long a Voyage to Mars would be.  I have my doubts this would have work.  So many things could have gone wrong, but they did spend years testing systems on Skylab and Moonlab.  And developing upgraded J-2 engines and systems for storing fuel long term.  He never says what they really are.

I think the book says they're J-2Ss, which stand for J-2 Simplified.  It was a new kind of J-2 with a more simplified fuel feeding system that was likely going to be used on the next production run of Saturn Vs if they had been ordered in real life.  The J-2X that was going to be developed for the Ares 1 and SLS is an upgraded version of this.

Batxer's Saturn VB is a logical progression of the Saturn V MLV program, so I think he went with his Saturn VBs having F-1As and J-2Ss.  His F-1As also had throtting capability because first-stage throttling was mentioned in the Ares ascent.  I can attest to this flying my Saturn VB in KSP RO, because without F-1A throtting and proper SRB thrust curves, I get dynamic pressure on ascent hitting over 50 kPa.

I should mention that on the Austronautix website, they mention a Saturn VB that's nothing like Baxter's.  It's just a modified Saturn V first stage called the Saturn 1D with jettisonable outer engines.  Just a fun fact. http://www.astronautix.com/s/saturnv-b.html

I have been trying, unsuccessfully, to write "Beyond Ares" that shows what happens to the crew after they return.  So far, it involves only York.  The passage of the splashdown is part of it.  So far, I have some nice moments from the world wide tour they take, her meeting Neil Armstrong, Russia, White house dinner with the Reagans and Bush.  Here Bush asks her to serve on the Space Council when he gets elected.  They also meet JFK shortly before his death. 

Why I would love to see Ares 2, I envision a Lunar infrastructure.  A small shuttle to fly crew to a space station, which Gershon gets to test fly. Then a reusable Apollo taxi to a Lagrange point lunar station that has a reusable lander to go to the surface.  The Russians join the base plan during the Clinton years, using their upgrade N-1 to help in construction.  Then a lunar base that in 20 years, becomes a colony on the moon.  So by "today" we would have a 100 person base on the moon.  It would be then, with commercial flights to the base and the rise of those companies, like we see today, that plans to go to Mars return.  And with the experience of the Moonbase (Chaffee Base) that those plans become colonial. 

The final chapter has an elderly York, in 2030, watching the launch of one of those colony ships with her son, Ben.  So, like our Apollo program, we retreat from deep space to the moon, and only after decades of staying in lunar space, do we get back to Mars.  Sort of like how we retreat from the moon to low earth orbit.

I wonder if they would even go as far as to go back to the moon.  I would think NASA would spend many years out of space trying to come up with a post-Apollo plan.  IRL, one idea for the MEM was to be a heavy lunar lander, and those could be used to construct a base on the Moon.  Of course, Congress would demand NASA to exercise post-Ares austerity, so they might lose funding for the Saturn VB and have to come up with a cheaper heavy lifter, or keep the Saturn VB and only fly it once every few years.  We'd be back on the moon, but without any funding for any robotic exploration that NASA probably still wants.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: MATTBLAK on 11/15/2016 12:16 PM
If they wanted a much cheaper booster than the Saturn VB, but one that could send Apollo CSMs on lunar missions in two launches, I once read of a Saturn 1B replacement concept that would have a single F-1A on a new first stage derived from S-IVB tooling, with the J-2S equipped S-IVB upper stage, but that stage stretched a little for more propellant. This launcher could fly with zero, 2 or 4x Titan III derived solid boosters. The four booster version could get about 50 tons into LEO. Docking a CSM with an S-IVB launched separately could send that CSM to the Moon. A new Lander or an improved Apollo LM could be sent ahead on a separate 2x launch sequence. Though because the Apollo LM is much lighter than a CSM and it's propellant supply; it would need an additonal propulsion stage to brake it into Lunar Orbit. Perhaps one derived from another LM Descent Stage, albeit a legless one.

This 50 ton launcher mission architecture has been similarly proposed as a future Chinese Design Reference Mission; not to mention for ESA as well. I would have some doubts that 4x enhanced Saturn 1Bs would be cheaper than a single Saturn VB, but some have suggested that 'bulk quantity' manufacture could standardize and help bring down costs.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/15/2016 01:12 PM

I wonder if they would even go as far as to go back to the moon.  I would think NASA would spend many years out of space trying to come up with a post-Apollo plan.  IRL, one idea for the MEM was to be a heavy lunar lander, and those could be used to construct a base on the Moon.  Of course, Congress would demand NASA to exercise post-Ares austerity, so they might lose funding for the Saturn VB and have to come up with a cheaper heavy lifter, or keep the Saturn VB and only fly it once every few years.  We'd be back on the moon, but without any funding for any robotic exploration that NASA probably still wants.

It won't be until 1998 that the Moon thing starts to happen, after the Russians join up, parallel to our ISS.  In the meantime, there is a S-II stage based Skylab II in Earth orbit.  I have a Saturn VB Block II with extended first stage and a VC with liquid boosters eventually.  Also, they make the F-1 engines reusable on the VC, in a parachute pod. Baxter talked about making as much of the Saturn VB reusable as possible in the book, but as far as I know, it only became the SRBs that were.  So, my Saturn VC will be his eventual upgrade.  These are only used to launch construction flights.  The resupply and crew flights use the reusable shuttle, Earth-Moon Taxi and Reusable Lander.  That is why they have the orbiting stations, crew transfer points.  But even this won't be in place until 2005, 20 years after Ares.

Robotic funding will return, with Mars missions starting in 1998.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Finn Mac Doreahn on 11/15/2016 06:31 PM
I have been trying, unsuccessfully, to write "Beyond Ares" that shows what happens to the crew after they return.  So far, it involves only York.  The passage of the splashdown is part of it.  So far, I have some nice moments from the world wide tour they take, her meeting Neil Armstrong, Russia, White house dinner with the Reagans and Bush.  Here Bush asks her to serve on the Space Council when he gets elected.  They also meet JFK shortly before his death. 

Why I would love to see Ares 2, I envision a Lunar infrastructure.  A small shuttle to fly crew to a space station, which Gershon gets to test fly. Then a reusable Apollo taxi to a Lagrange point lunar station that has a reusable lander to go to the surface.  The Russians join the base plan during the Clinton years, using their upgrade N-1 to help in construction.  Then a lunar base that in 20 years, becomes a colony on the moon.  So by "today" we would have a 100 person base on the moon.  It would be then, with commercial flights to the base and the rise of those companies, like we see today, that plans to go to Mars return.  And with the experience of the Moonbase (Chaffee Base) that those plans become colonial. 

The final chapter has an elderly York, in 2030, watching the launch of one of those colony ships with her son, Ben.  So, like our Apollo program, we retreat from deep space to the moon, and only after decades of staying in lunar space, do we get back to Mars.  Sort of like how we retreat from the moon to low earth orbit.

Could you possibly post this on AH.com?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/15/2016 11:41 PM
I will eventually.  When I get enough done the way I want.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: RanulfC on 11/16/2016 06:00 PM
I have been told that the Ares patch shows up in Baxter's recent novel, Ultima.  Apparently it deals with an alternate timeline where Ares crashed.  It seams to be a story about multiverses.  And this crashed Ares timeline is just a quick mention.

Book 2 in the "Proxima" duo-logy according to the sites. And it appears it is all about 'alternate history' since the protagonist gets captured by 21st Century Romans who flew a Starship to their Proxima which is on the other side of the "gate" they find in the book "Proxima".
http://www.tor.com/2013/09/04/book-review-proxima-stephen-baxter/
http://www.tor.com/2014/11/25/book-review-ultima-stephen-baxter/

Randy
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: RanulfC on 11/16/2016 07:54 PM
Yeah.  I just love the challenge of Apollo to Mars with a Venus fly-by.

I feel the plan would be a bit insane IRL though, and there are ways to improve this mission.  Still, Baxter did a great job with scientific accuracy.

Personally, I feel Eyes Turned Skyward is a more realistic alt-history NASA.  No Mars missions in that, but also no Space Shuttle.  The Saturn V gets cancelled, but the Saturn 1B gets updated with a F-1A-powered first stage (Saturn 1C) and redesigned Apollo CSM (Block III), and NASA sticks to a long-term plan of space stations.  It's more of a compromise between these two worlds.  On the plus side, we go back to the moon in the '90s and establish bases there (on something called the Saturn Multibody and Saturn Heavy and the EOR approach), but no Mars mission.  It's interesting if you like alt history, and it's free for reading online (thought I don't know where).

If you hadn't known, (and for everyone's general information :) ) ETS has had some 'update' discussions with some KSP folks posting ETS component mods they did for KSP. Some really good stuff. We've also found out the Saturn 1C may in fact have been slightly more plausible than even the authors of ETS thought it was.
(They admitted that there was some problems with the single-F1 design but it turns out even as the "Saturn" was still the "Juno-V" the engineers had examined the possibility of using a single F1 in place of 4 of the H1 engines. They kept the outboard gimbled H1s for roll and directional control which solved most of the issues with the "plain" ETS Saturn-1C design)

I enjoyed Eyes Turned Skyward, but found it unbelievable due to the actual events of the real time line.  Baxter's seemed much more believable.  I did like the return to the moon aspects, but space stations are so dull.  They just go round and round.  Not high adventure, unlike the early days of Vostok, Mercury, Voskshod, Soyuz, Gemini, and Apollo.  Not going anywhere.

useful things can be done in LOE, don't get me wrong.

Baxter's is actually worse as when he wrote it no one was aware of Kennedy's regret at starting the Lunar Program and how much he was looking for a  way out of it. At the time most people generally assumed Kennedy was a "space cadet" and would have proposed something like a follow on Mars project. As it was he historically was looking for something, anything really, to avoid setting the Lunar Goal in the first place.

ETS makes a good case of avoiding the Shuttle decision while continuing to use the legacy Apollo hardware as much as possible. My problem with ETS is despite the "focus" on space station operations and support they then 'require' the Saturn Multibody and a heavy lift program to accommodate a Lunar Landing program very similar to, (though obviously a bit more robust) Apollo rather than actually using the already developed hardware and infrastructure.

Randy
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: RanulfC on 11/16/2016 08:37 PM
Batxer's Saturn VB is a logical progression of the Saturn V MLV program, so I think he went with his Saturn VBs having F-1As and J-2Ss.  His F-1As also had throtting capability because first-stage throttling was mentioned in the Ares ascent.  I can attest to this flying my Saturn VB in KSP RO, because without F-1A throtting and proper SRB thrust curves, I get dynamic pressure on ascent hitting over 50 kPa.

MLV-V-4(S)-B using F1As and J2T250Ks and Titan Boosters which is where he gets the "Saturn-VB" (its in there :) ) from and not the 1.5 stage S-1D stage which is what's confusing.
http://www.astronautix.com/s/saturnmlv-v-4s-b.html

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I should mention that on the Austronautix website, they mention a Saturn VB that's nothing like Baxter's.  It's just a modified Saturn V first stage called the Saturn 1D with jettisonable outer engines.  Just a fun fact. http://www.astronautix.com/s/saturnv-b.html

As note a bunch of confusion over the designations really, Baker noted that he actually tried to point out the 'differences' between his launcher (MLV-V-4(S)-B) by eliminating the "-" which is used for the Saturn V-B but as it appears no one noticed he's given up on trying to justify/explain it. (Much like how he's SO tired of hearing why the Apollo-N accident could not happen which he is WELL, very well at this point, aware of but he needed a reason for an all chemical mission rather than nuclear. From what I understand he'd have supported the idea of using an Orion drive but frankly that's probably TOO 'fiction' for a plausible book :) ) In essence the Saturn V-B was supposed to be a way t keep the Saturn-V S1 stage and use a version to replace the Saturn-1 with a bit more payload. Albeit at a much higher price but the price wasn't the point as much as keeping the Saturn-V alive.

On the architecture the LM stage should be able to use the S-IVB stage for both Lunar injection and braking since the LM is much lighter than the CM/SM. Really though you could even build a 'larger' LM using the Saturn Lunar Module Adapter section as a basis for a vehicle in a similar manner as suggested for using them for Space Station modules during the LESA and APP program studies.

If they wanted a much cheaper booster than the Saturn VB, but one that could send Apollo CSMs on lunar missions in two launches, I once read of a Saturn 1B replacement concept that would have a single F-1A on a new first stage derived from S-IVB tooling, with the J-2S equipped S-IVB upper stage, but that stage stretched a little for more propellant. This launcher could fly with zero, 2 or 4x Titan III derived solid boosters. The four booster version could get about 50 tons into LEO. Docking a CSM with an S-IVB launched separately could send that CSM to the Moon. A new Lander or an improved Apollo LM could be sent ahead on a separate 2x launch sequence. Though because the Apollo LM is much lighter than a CSM and it's propellant supply; it would need an additional propulsion stage to brake it into Lunar Orbit. Perhaps one derived from another LM Descent Stage, albeit a legless one.

Which one? VB or V-B? :)

The Saturn-1 replacement described as far as I know was mentioned in some of the Saturn-INT studies and expanded on in ETS but not seriously considered. (Mostly because it didn't use ENOUGH of the Saturn V components which again, was most of the point in the first place) I think it was using modified S1 or SII tooling because the S-IV tooling was in California while the others were in Mississippi which they were trying to keep open.

The "problem" was going to a new design mono-tank design for a "Saturn-1" stage didn't make a lot of sense either economically or technically even to mount and feed an F1 engine.

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This 50 ton launcher mission architecture has been similarly proposed as a future Chinese Design Reference Mission; not to mention for ESA as well. I would have some doubts that 4x enhanced Saturn 1Bs would be cheaper than a single Saturn VB, but some have suggested that 'bulk quantity' manufacture could standardize and help bring down costs.

Building more and flying more is (generally) been pretty much proven with various ELVs so it would make sense however in context in the "Voyage-verse" the whole point, (much as was heavily suggested OTL) the point is to keep as much "Saturn-V" production going as possible so in this case nothing about the "Saturn-1" would have survived 'post-Apollo' and the Saturn-V systems would be (and are) used as much as possible.

Randy
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 11/18/2016 01:24 PM
  Ranulf, I'm aware of the ETS mods for KSP.  I have Real Scale Boosters installed in my RO install, and it comes with some parts for the Saturn IC and Saturn MultiBody and some of the other rockets.  I used the RSB's F-1A throttling specs to determine my throttling range for the F-1As used by FASA, which is the mod I used to create my Saturn V-B.  I think the BDB mod has some ETS stuff and is getting more, though it's for stock KSP and not RSS/RO KSP. 

  I'm also aware that Baxter's Saturn V-B was based on a real study, which is why it's so easy to create the rocket with FASA because that includes parts for creating most if not all the Saturn V MLV designs.  The J-2Ts were aerospike engines and not typical Devall nozzle engines, and in Voyage, I think the Saturn V-B went with J-2Ss, which work fine when I use them on my Saturn V-B replica.  NASA probably just modified the MLV-V-4(S)-B proposal with J-2Ss instead of J-2Ts maybe to save cost or complexity because maybe the J-2S was easier to fit into the existing S-II and S-IVB designs than a J-2T owing to the J-2S piping being made to fit on the existing Saturn V upper stages.  I also figure the Saturn V-B being from the MLV program is why all of the stages get a M designation in front of them in the book (MS-IC, MS-II, and MS-IVB).

  In general, you can think of Kerbal Space Program as both a modelling game and a space flight game, because you can build any rocket you want and fly it around in space under the restrictions of Newtonian mechanics and simple gravity models.

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ETS makes a good case of avoiding the Shuttle decision while continuing to use the legacy Apollo hardware as much as possible. My problem with ETS is despite the "focus" on space station operations and support they then 'require' the Saturn Multibody and a heavy lift program to accommodate a Lunar Landing program very similar to, (though obviously a bit more robust) Apollo rather than actually using the already developed hardware and infrastructure.

IIRC, around the time of the revived lunar program in ETS, NASA didn't have anything heavy enough to do a lunar mission.  All they had was the Saturn IC, and they probably didn't want to bring back the Saturn V for obvious cost reasons.  Dunno if they could have lifted their lunar lander on a Saturn IC or not, or using another rocket, or if they needed to develop a heavy lifter like the Saturn Heavy.  Plus, with their plan, they wanted to loft a drive stage for TLI, which meant three launches for a lunar mission.

Another possibility would be to find a way to make the Saturn V cheaper and still get an equivalent payload capacity.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: RanulfC on 11/18/2016 05:28 PM
I'm also aware that Baxter's Saturn V-B was based on a real study, which is why it's so easy to create the rocket with FASA because that includes parts for creating most if not all the Saturn V MLV designs.  The J-2Ts were aerospike engines and not typical Devall nozzle engines, and in Voyage, I think the Saturn V-B went with J-2Ss, which work fine when I use them on my Saturn V-B replica.  NASA probably just modified the MLV-V-4(S)-B proposal with J-2Ss instead of J-2Ts maybe to save cost or complexity because maybe the J-2S was easier to fit into the existing S-II and S-IVB designs than a J-2T owing to the J-2S piping being made to fit on the existing Saturn V upper stages.  I also figure the Saturn V-B being from the MLV program is why all of the stages get a M designation in front of them in the book (MS-IC, MS-II, and MS-IVB).

 I seem to recall that they were stated to be J2S' which didn't actually make sense as the J2Ts had higher ISP and altitude compensation but most importantly allowed the Saturn MLV-V-4(S)-B to use the standard Saturn-V connections for the upper stages on the MLP and better fit through the VAB doors. (The aerospikes were much shorter than the J2 and allowed a shorter, more compact interstage which was required due to the first stage tank stretch) they used all the standard J2 fittings and gimbals though they had to redesign the thrust structure itself in general everything was pretty straight forward.

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In general, you can think of Kerbal Space Program as both a modelling game and a space flight game, because you can build any rocket you want and fly it around in space under the restrictions of Newtonian mechanics and simple gravity models.

I understand Orbiter is more accurate and somewhat more mod-able overall but KSP is neater and much easier to 'tweak' it seems to me. I have but have not used Orbiter btw.

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IIRC, around the time of the revived lunar program in ETS, NASA didn't have anything heavy enough to do a lunar mission.  All they had was the Saturn IC, and they probably didn't want to bring back the Saturn V for obvious cost reasons.  Dunno if they could have lifted their lunar lander on a Saturn IC or not, or using another rocket, or if they needed to develop a heavy lifter like the Saturn Heavy.  Plus, with their plan, they wanted to loft a drive stage for TLI, which meant three launches for a lunar mission.

Another possibility would be to find a way to make the Saturn V cheaper and still get an equivalent payload capacity.

Needed a heavy launch vehicle for a heavy lander and crew lander/surface station. No way to afford let alone justify bringing back the Saturn-V but you have enough left over technology, now being produced steadily so as to reduce costs, to build a three barrel "Saturn-1C" vehicle consisting of a single Saturn-1C core and two Saturn-1C boosters. They boost the cargo or manned lander into orbit. from there the cargo lander boosts itself to TLI while the manned lander needs to wait on another launch of dedicated TLI stage. Everything is expended and the crew capsule directly returns to Earth after the mission.

It's a decent "Apollo" like mission architecture, (and believe me we've discussed the various types and failings with the various "Apolloism" mentality that exist OTL and that ETS managed to turn into a working system) and a long as you don't mind repeating Apollo over and over again, (they do manage to get a 'base' out of it but its a very basic 'outpost' by the end with all the vulnerability to political whim that implies) and reinforce that "heavy-lift" is the only way to do space missions paradigm.

Resurrect the Saturn-V? They pretty much have to in order to keep going beyond the Moon, assuming of course they can parley the support from Congress and the public, the Saturn Multibody is pretty close to it's limits as it stands and the 'standard' architecture is to loft as few pieces as possible to assemble the flight. 5 to 7 Saturn-1Cs as a cluster booster and so on.

Or an enhanced Saturn-1C (similar to the DoD set up) starts delivering component to assemble to SS Freedom along with establishing a propellant depot and you build you Moon/Mars ship there. Worst comes to worst put up an 'assembly shack' based on modules you can loft on the Saturn-1C, (you did it with Freedom anyway) in a more effective orbit and do assembly there. You are under no TIME pressure but you are under budget pressure to do as much as possible with the money you have. Again however ETS made some basic assumptions and assumed government and NASA "Apolloism" would be difficult to overcome but less so to re-direct so...

This is why the time line "I" am trying to write the Saturn-1 and variants is the largest booster the US develops so that we have no means of 'skipping' right over learning how to work on-orbit and learning orbital assembly to go beyond LEO.

Randy
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 11/19/2016 04:14 PM
I seem to recall that they were stated to be J2S' which didn't actually make sense as the J2Ts had higher ISP and altitude compensation but most importantly allowed the Saturn MLV-V-4(S)-B to use the standard Saturn-V connections for the upper stages on the MLP and better fit through the VAB doors. (The aerospikes were much shorter than the J2 and allowed a shorter, more compact interstage which was required due to the first stage tank stretch) they used all the standard J2 fittings and gimbals though they had to redesign the thrust structure itself in general everything was pretty straight forward.

Yeah.  It would take much to adjust the Saturn V for use of the J-2Ts.  Plus, there are some questionable design decisions made in Voyage, mostly with the design of the MEM.  There might be some artistic freedom going on with using J-2Ss on the MLV-V-4(S)-B.  The Saturn V-B in Voyage is actually closer to the MLV-4-(S).

Just for fun, I put some J-2T-250ks on my Saturn V-B and launched it.  I found out that Realism Overhaul didn't add gimballing to the J-2Ts though for some reason, so my rocket had no steering in the second stage.  Should be an easy fix.

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/141130676906446459/39FC532C40DF4D42373D14A70986D6B6DC87F69A/)

(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/141130676906454339/2004C502243A353C8761AE16A901B509A773266D/)

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I understand Orbiter is more accurate and somewhat more mod-able overall but KSP is neater and much easier to 'tweak' it seems to me. I have but have not used Orbiter btw.

Orbiter is free and has a pretty good modding community, but it has a super-steep learning curve and less useful and intuitive flight tools when compared to KSP.  It's much harder to plan a mission in Orbiter unless you know how to use some of the flight planning MFDs, which have their own steep learning curve.  Orbiter also doesn't have the same level of detail with rocket mechanics as KSP does with Realism Overhaul.  Orbiter just uses one fuel for everything.  Even stock KSP has different fuels for different types of engines, though they still keep it simple.  On the other hand, it's easier to do cinematic missions with Orbiter (like the ASMO add-on for Apollo flights, which include real audio).  Plus, many modded Orbiter craft come with autopilot programs, so there's no learning how to make orbit if you just want the excitement of doing a mission (and the real NASA used computers to fly everything).

KSP is a sandbox rocket exploration game, so it has a bunch of customization.  You build your own rockets and fly your own missions, and the base game is designed around reducing the learning curve as much as possible without making it too easy, so you get tools such maneuver node editors and a real-time map to plan missions.  Plus, you have tons of mods to add parts and bring the game closer to a simulator (RSS/RO), and it does a much better job simulating real rocket science than Orbiter (mods for different fuels, different engines, limited ignitions, throttle restrictions, etc.).  You can basically go to the VAB in KSP and build your own Saturn V in hours versus having to learn a modelling program and code to built it in Orbiter.  Or you can build your own rocket with Saturn V parts.  I personally spent less than an hour building the Saturn V-B and a bit more time on a rough Ares Command Stack.  Most of my time in making my craft was lost in details and fine-tuning, but it was still fun and rewarding to do and felt like building a model.  Only downside is that there is no perfect autopilot system for rockets.  Mechjeb does have an automatic ascent function, but it's tuned more for the stock game and thus it doesn't work as well for RSS/RO.  So you have to learn to get into orbit, which is very difficult in RSS/RO.  It took me many tries to finally do it, and I had 1000+ hours of experience in stock KSP.  Despite that, I feel KSP RSS/RO is more flexible and easier to play than Orbiter, and it's easier and more fun to set up missions such as the Ares mission.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: RanulfC on 11/21/2016 08:47 PM
No the real difference is it isn't half as fun to watch an Orbiter rocket doing flips over the cape while the crew, (who are not cute green people) scream in panic whereas...

Randy :)
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/21/2016 09:57 PM
Do these simulators take into account such things as boil-off of your propellants?  That still bothers me about Baxter's mission.  And the one model I did based on the Mars One Crew Manual.

Also, can you model NERVA?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 11/22/2016 05:14 PM
Do these simulators take into account such things as boil-off of your propellants?  That still bothers me about Baxter's mission.  And the one model I did based on the Mars One Crew Manual.

In KSP, yes, but not in stock.  It's part of the Real Fuels mod, and it's a base part of the Realism Overhaul mod set.  Liquid hydrogen boils off with time, especially if you don't use cryogenic tanks.  I actually had to go into the configuration file for the FASA Saturn V tanks and change their type to cryogenic to slow boil off down enough so that all my LH2 wouldn't boil off before the mission is finished.  Dunno if other cryo fuels boil off such as LO2.  They may, but not nearly as fast as LH2.

I figure in the Voyageverse, NASA would have added extra cooling and insulation to the tanks of the propulsion stage to limit boil-off as much as possible.  The tanks may even have been orange, not white.  IIRC, the book mentions boil-off as an issue that they accounted for by orienting the Ares craft facing the sun, and they had invented tech to deal with long-term storage of super-cooled fuels, so cryogenic Saturn V tanks in my simulation isn't breaking canon.  Plus, there's still boil-off, but it takes years to boil off the LH2 in the Ares propulsion stage instead of days with default tanks.

In Orbiter, at least in Orbiter 2010, they don't simulate fuel beyond having it as a single resource and adding weight to the vehicle.  It's really limited compared to even stock KSP.

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Also, can you model NERVA?

KSP has NERVA engines.  The stock game has one just called the LV-N Nerv which runs on liquid fuel and has incredible efficiency but not much thrust.  If the LV-N gets damaged or destroyed, it doesn't do anything like spread radiation and kill Kerbals.  Some mods include other kinds of nuclear thermal drives, and LH2 or other fuels to run them with, but I don't know of any that simulate engine meltdown and irradiation.

In Realism Overhaul, NERVAs run on LH2 or LH2 + Oxidizer if they're LANTR-style engines.  They also have limited enriched uranium the depletes over time.   I don't think they can melt down and irradiates Kerbals though unless there's a mod for it.  They might just explode if overheated like in stock and be more of an inconvenience than a death sentence.

I assume you're asking because of Apollo-N in the book, which I actually did want to recreate.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 11/22/2016 10:30 PM
Actually, my next model will be the Von Braun NERVA.  Hopefully starting soon.  I have the tubes and parts and just need to start cutting plastic.

On my model of Ares, I added insulation to the outside of the MS-II and MS-IVB as well as the ETs.  The book describes the tanks as both orange and white, and the faded to ivory when they arrive at Mars!  I left them ivory and white.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 11/23/2016 11:18 AM
Cool.  I might do Van Braun NERVA shuttles as well after Ares.  Those would be better suited for a trip to Titan.

A third option, which might be "cheating," is nuclear pulse.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: MATTBLAK on 11/30/2016 08:38 PM
I've received my Ares patches from ronpur - they are excellent quality! Message the good man for ordering details...
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/10/2017 12:36 AM
 With the completion tonight of Saturn I:SA-5, I have added another Saturn to my collection. The collection includes two fictional Saturns, including Ares.

Left to right: Modified Revell 1/96 scale. 1/200 AMT SA-501, 1/100 4-D Vision cutaway, And the 1/144 scale:Saturn VB from "Voyage", Saturn V from "Interstellar", Saturn V-Skylab, Saturn V-Apollo8, Saturn V-500F, Saturn IB-Skylab, Apollo 7-Saturn IB, Apollo 5-Saturn IB, Saturn IB-SA-203, Saturn IB-SA-201, Saturn I-SA-6 and finally:SA-5!!

And the first one I ever had, with me back in 1969!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 03/10/2017 02:07 AM
Did they really use a Saturn V to launch the ranger in Interstellar?  It was always hard to tell with the camera angles in the movie.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 03/10/2017 06:40 AM
Much like how he's SO tired of hearing why the Apollo-N accident could not happen which he is WELL, very well at this point....

Can you explain please?  because the more I read about NERVA the more plausible the accident seems and the more I am glad to was cancelled before something nasty happened.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 03/10/2017 10:45 AM
Did they really use a Saturn V to launch the ranger in Interstellar?  It was always hard to tell with the camera angles in the movie.

Yes, it is.  The 1/72 model kit of the Ranger comes with a 1/144 scale version that fits a Saturn V model.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 03/10/2017 04:23 PM
Much like how he's SO tired of hearing why the Apollo-N accident could not happen which he is WELL, very well at this point....

Can you explain please?  because the more I read about NERVA the more plausible the accident seems and the more I am glad to was cancelled before something nasty happened.

I did a little research, and from what I can tell, a NERVA containment failure and meltdown is plausible, but the radiation exposure issue may not be.  This is because the liquid hydrogen would shield the crew from any radiation the NERVA produced, even in a severe containment failure.

In the Apollo-N accident, the S-N stage was still well-packed with LH2, so there was plenty of shielding between them and the failed NERVA rocket, and therefore they should have all survived the accident.

From http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2011/ph241/hamerly1/

Quote
Protecting the crew from radiation is as important as preventing a nuclear meltdown. Neutron shielding, which can weigh several tons, must be installed between the reactor and the crew, and the distance between the two should be maximized to take greatest advantage of the fact that radiation flux falls off with the square of the distance. Placing the fuel tanks between the crew and the rocket is a very effective way to shield the crew, since hydrogen makes an excellent neutron scatterer. [4]

Now this is not to say they weren't in danger during the failure as if they were to separate from their S-N stage and somehow the S-N stage rotated around after sep (which might be common), then they could have received a much higher dose of radiation.  They could have also been far enough away from the engine for attenuation to reduce the exposure though.

So, yeah, I'm sure Baxter got a load of "But the LH2 would have shielded them" comments, but he had to ignore that for the sake of the story.

EDIT: I should also mention that I'm sure NASA would have loads of safety features in the NERVA built-in even if the engine was built under a time crunch, such as automatic shutdown if a problem that could lead to a contamination failure were to develop.

Furthermore, Google Kiwi-TNT.  This was a NERVA-program test of a Kiwi reactor where they made one go critical on purpose to test the effects of a containment failure.  So IRL, the NERVA guys were thinking about "what if the engine explodes Chernobyl-style during use?" among other possible events of containment failure.

Quote from: Ronpur50
Yes, it is.  The 1/72 model kit of the Ranger comes with a 1/144 scale version that fits a Saturn V model.

I suspected the rocket they launched on in the movie was a Saturn V-derived rocket, but not an actual Saturn V.  Given the setting and events, I didn't think it would be practical for NASA to build more Saturn Vs for their missions, and they could only scrounge up two to three from displays and refurbish them for flight.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Dalhousie on 03/10/2017 09:06 PM
Much like how he's SO tired of hearing why the Apollo-N accident could not happen which he is WELL, very well at this point....

Can you explain please?  because the more I read about NERVA the more plausible the accident seems and the more I am glad to was cancelled before something nasty happened.

I did a little research, and from what I can tell, a NERVA containment failure and meltdown is plausible, but the radiation exposure issue may not be.  This is because the liquid hydrogen would shield the crew from any radiation the NERVA produced, even in a severe containment failure.

In the Apollo-N accident, the S-N stage was still well-packed with LH2, so there was plenty of shielding between them and the failed NERVA rocket, and therefore they should have all survived the accident.

From http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2011/ph241/hamerly1/

Quote
Protecting the crew from radiation is as important as preventing a nuclear meltdown. Neutron shielding, which can weigh several tons, must be installed between the reactor and the crew, and the distance between the two should be maximized to take greatest advantage of the fact that radiation flux falls off with the square of the distance. Placing the fuel tanks between the crew and the rocket is a very effective way to shield the crew, since hydrogen makes an excellent neutron scatterer. [4]

Now this is not to say they weren't in danger during the failure as if they were to separate from their S-N stage and somehow the S-N stage rotated around after sep (which might be common), then they could have received a much higher dose of radiation.  They could have also been far enough away from the engine for attenuation to reduce the exposure though.

This is exactly what happens in the story.

Quote
So, yeah, I'm sure Baxter got a load of "But the LH2 would have shielded them" comments, but he had to ignore that for the sake of the story.

First of all he did not ignore it and secondly anyone who said that did not read the story.  The Bellcom report on the NERVA program was critical of what it saw as rather optimistic assumptions radiation shielding assumptions.  Not least that the shielding from the propellant went down as radiation increased.


Quote
EDIT: I should also mention that I'm sure NASA would have loads of safety features in the NERVA built-in even if the engine was built under a time crunch, such as automatic shutdown if a problem that could lead to a contamination failure were to develop.

Unfortunately when it comes down to it, safety features don't always work in a catastrophic accident.  besides it's not contamination that was an issue in the story, but radiation exposure to an unshield life core and its fragments.

Quote
Furthermore, Google Kiwi-TNT.  This was a NERVA-program test of a Kiwi reactor where they made one go critical on purpose to test the effects of a containment failure.  So IRL, the NERVA guys were thinking about "what if the engine explodes Chernobyl-style during use?" among other possible events of containment failure.

Read the reports several years ago.  This experiment produced one of the most serious radiation plumes up to that time.  It shows the rather cavalier attitude to safety exhibited by program, and referred to by Baxter. The test deliberately released 1.6 million Curies into the environment, as opposed to the far better publicised Windscale fire which accidently only released 33,000 Curies.  The core was basically vapourised.  There were other tests earlier on where the engines ejected bits of incandescent core through unscheduled rapid disassembly.  These would have been more like the Apollo-N accident.  I attach a photo of the Kiwi TNT test.  The glowing particles are core fragments.

One thing that Baxter does mention that I have not been able to confirm was the positive power profile and deliberate instability of the design, although both seem likely. 
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 03/11/2017 01:46 AM
I stand corrected, and granted it's been a year since I've read the story, and I don't have a copy.  LH2 shielding was my first thought on as to why the accident wasn't considered plausible.  Furthermore, I know the accident created a propellant leak that would have vented the protective LH2 as time went on.

Honestly, this whole tragedy could have been avoided if the test was unmanned, but RL NASA sent pilots on the first space shuttle flight, and they do sometimes toss safety aside (which played roles in both RL space shuttle disasters), so it's not implausible for this to happen in the story.  Honestly, I never saw it as implausible except that I think NASA might have had more failsafes built into a test NERVA and fly it unmanned.

It's just hard to say.

Also, I meant to say "containment failure."  I missed that error.  What I was thinking about was an electronic failsafe that would turn the graphite moderators to a full position to try to shut down the core if temps exceeded a certain threshold (and a temp increase did precede the explosion IIRC).  Containment failure would be the NERVA shielding blowing and spreading radiation out.

I have a limited knowledge of NERVA and nuclear reactors, so I'm prone to make mistakes.

It would be interesting to model the radiation field of an exposed NERVA core.  IIRC, only part of the shielding was busted, and it busted out the side, so I wonder how the radiation would spread out.

Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 03/11/2017 02:14 PM
There actually was an unmanned test that (of course) went perfectly. :(

The 1/72 scale Ranger is pretty cool, 1/72 was my favorite scale ten years ago (before I stopped modeling)

I wish there could be a Big Gemini add-on either in Kerbal or Orbiter. If anybody can help :p

ETS and my own TL Explorers started exactly the same  premise (entirely coincidentally) but they are entirely different. Ranulf, how is your TL going ?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: brickmack on 03/12/2017 02:03 AM
There actually was an unmanned test that (of course) went perfectly. :(

The 1/72 scale Ranger is pretty cool, 1/72 was my favorite scale ten years ago (before I stopped modeling)

I wish there could be a Big Gemini add-on either in Kerbal or Orbiter. If anybody can help :p

ETS and my own TL Explorers started exactly the same  premise (coincidentally) but they are entirely different. Ranulf, how is your TL going ?

Big Gemini is included in FASA for KSP (along with several other Gemini-derivatives) and is compatible with Realism Overhaul too
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 03/12/2017 09:39 AM
very cool. What is FASA ?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: brickmack on 03/12/2017 03:41 PM
http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/22888-105-fasa-544/
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 03/14/2017 05:31 PM
Yeah, FASA has Big Gemini, MOL, the Saturn C-8, the M-1, and the 156" UA SRBs for any Saturn MLV you want to make.  It doesn't have stretched S-I, S-II, or S-IVB stages, but you can install procedural parts and add the stretching yourself.

Frizzank isn't working on FASA anymore, but I think someone else is updating it for people who want to use it in Real Solar System + Realism Overhaul installs.  You can get a stock version from them as well.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 06/27/2017 03:21 PM
Hey.  Finally got a copy of Voyage a few weeks ago courtesy of a friend.  It's interesting how things differ between my interpretation on KSP and what happens in the book, especially during the launch sequence.  For instance, I started throttleback for Max Q sooner because I didn't think 40 kPa dynamic pressure was acceptable (I can use MechJeb to give me Q, and the mod Ferram Aerospace Research will give a high dynamic pressure warning if Q exceeds 40 kPa).  I also eject the launch escape tower sooner, and I chose my time based on studies.  I'm actually not sure when the "right" time is to jettison a LES and go to a Mode II+ abort mode.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 06/29/2017 10:22 PM
Definitely after SRB jettison!  I would assume shortly after S-II ignition, like was done on Apollo.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 06/30/2017 06:03 AM
In the book, LES jettison is done shortly after S-II ignition like in a standard Saturn V launch.  I've seen videos of this mission having the LES jettison occur shortly after SRB sep though, while the MS-IC is still firing.  After reading this paper, I went with the latter.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19720017278.pdf

From what I gather, the LES was best used while the LV was still in the atmosphere and mostly vertical.  After SRB sep in my launches, the LV is 72 km high and at a pitch of around 35 degrees.  It also has a high vertical velocity, so it's going to be crossing the Karman line pretty quickly.  Therefore, I jettison the LES at 80 km, where the MS-IC is still firing.  I imagine in an abort, the engines would be commanded to shut down and the SPS would fire to push the CSM away from a potentially-catastrophic explosion.

I'm truly not sure of the logic behind when to transition from using an LES for aborts to using a different abort option.  I just went with what I felt was best based on that paper, and it just happens to differ from what's in the book just like how my F-1A throttling timing differs from the book.  I'm not a NASA rocket scientist, so I can't say my way is "correct," but it works well with respect to KSP RSS/RO, which is pretty close to reality.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 07/02/2017 08:41 PM
I have always read that the LES was best used in those times as well.  The other part of the LES is the Boost Protective Cover, and it really only had a use in the atmosphere.  So once that was behind, and the SPS could take over, there was no longer a need to carry the extra weight.  I can't wait to see what you are coming up with!!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 07/02/2017 08:56 PM
Thanks.  I need to get back on the project since it's 90% complete.  I left off on testing the Venus probe, where I used the Huygens probe as a stand-in for the Venus probe.  I didn't know the book actually had a description of the probe, but that's OK for now.  I plan on doing a test run of the mission.

I wonder if they guided the probe for a direct hit with Venus, or just aimed it at the limb of the planet for aerocapture?  The latter seems more likely because of the fewer g-forces on the probe and longer time spent in the atmosphere.  A direct descent is insane, and I've had probes explode from g-overload and overheating trying to aim it straight on (and these probes are rated for 50 Gs in-game I believe, and I can edit the tolerances, but I don't want to create a magical device).

I think I did read about the LES being used as a forward heat shield for ascent, so like you said, it would be logical to just ditch it when the rocket is above the majority of the atmosphere where shock heating is negligible to non-existent because it's just dead weight. 

I know Baxter did his homework for the novel, but he might have taken some artistic liberties, and he might have let some things slide since it's science fiction, and the focus of the book is the story of Natalie and the challenges of a Mars mission in an alternate post-Apollo NASA, not the hardcore technical and scientific details of the mission itself.  I've had a lot of fun researching and simulating the rigorous details of the mission though.  It almost makes me feel like I work at NASA right now given how much I've accomplished for this one mission.  I just want to make something special for it like a video or series.

Was also thinking of pictures and descriptions like what you did with the models, except using KSP screenshots.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 07/03/2017 09:59 PM
I imagined the Venus Probe to be the same as Pioneer Venus.  Since that never existed in Voyage, it made sense to me that the first probe would be that.  But it is also described as a pie dish, which sounds more Huygens-like.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 07/28/2017 05:54 AM
There is a description of the probe I think, and they mention it being a sphere with fins within a pie-shaped dish.

"The pressure vessel was a sphere of thick metal.  There were vanes on the sphere to make it spin, so that it was stabilized during its fall, and there were tough little windows cut into the surface so that the probe's instruments could see out."

It's page 470 in my copy.  The pressure vessel is the part of the probe in the pie-shaped heat shield that falls out after the probe gets so far down in Venus that the atmosphere is a superfluid.  In KSP RSS, you can float probes down this way since the terminal velocity is so low that it's lower than many part's crash tolerances.

I'm planning the flight in KSP RSS now.  Might have to move the planets around a bit since planetary motions aren't perfect in RSS.  I've advanced my game to March 17th, 1985, but finding a Earth -> Venus -> Mars trajectory is tricky even with tools for finding flybys.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 08/24/2017 03:49 PM
If anyone is interested, I started my first full run of my Ares recreation in KSP RSS.  It's more of a practice run, but it goes from launch to landing.  Already learned some interesting things about the mission and what the real Ares might have done versus the mission in the book.

Already, one big discrepancy is the Venus flyby.  I can't get a darkside flyby that doesn't result in a lower heliocentric orbit versus a higher one.  However, KSP uses a simple two-body gravity model.  It can be enhanced with a mod called Principalia I think, which introduces n-body physics into KSP, and maybe a dark-side flyby could result in a higher orbit in KSP there.  Overall, I'm interested in working out the vector math and even calculus to see if a dark-side Venus flyby could get you to Mars and not Mercury.  I'm also not sure if, when I approach Venus, that my trajectory will actually be on the dark side.  KSP's trajectory planning tools show a light-side encounter even in local body frame of reference mode (shows trajectories with respect to the dominant body in each sphere of influence).

Another discrepancy that I figured out was the G-forces apparently experienced by the Ares breaking into Mars orbit.  Baxter describes the Ares experience 4.6 G's max as it breaks into Martian orbit.  This is with a MS-II powered by 4 J-2S engines pushing a fully-fueled MS-IVB (minus boil-off) and Ares Command Stack.  However, during the launch, at least in my simulation, the MS-II (I used an MS-II) of the Saturn VB with five J-2S engines reached only 2+ Gs pushing just the Ares Command Stack into orbit.  There's no way the Ares Propulsion Module could produce a 4.6 G acceleration with one less engine and more mass to push.  I think even if you consider mass loss due to waste disposal and cryogenic boil-off, you're not going to get 4.6 Gs of acceleration from the APM breaking into Mars orbit.  This might be "artistic licensing" in action though, and Baxter broke reality to add to the drama of the scene.  I can forgive that.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 08/25/2017 01:26 AM
I know Baxter had help from JSC on the mission profile, including the flyby.  I have only a very vague understanding of the math involved in orbits.  So I can't give you any help.  You may also want to look at the Mars One Crew Manual, it uses an almost identical Venus flyby. 

Have you messaged any of the others who have modeled the mission in KSP?
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 08/25/2017 07:44 AM
The only other person I know who's done the mission is Chris P. Bacon.  Some have replicated the Ares, but did conjunction-class missions instead of opposition-class as in Voyage.  Again, I haven't got to Venus yet in my attempt, nor do I know if KSP does model flybys perfectly with it's simplistic gravity model (patched conics model I think it's called), so it's possible that Baxter's version is doable.  To answer your question, though, I have not contacted anyone else who's done an opposition-class Mars mission about how their attempt went.

I'll snap a pic of what my orbit plan looks like tomorrow.  I had a bug with a mod, so I didn't get to Venus today because I need the mod to move crew around between parts of my ship.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Nittany Tiger on 08/27/2017 04:13 AM
I thought about the problem and did conclude that KSP's patched conics gravity model doesn't take into account momentum transfer between a planet and another body flying by it.  You can also see it as the game not taking frame of reference velocity into account in gravitational interactions.  This means that only directional accelerations are possible with KSP's base gravity model, and this is why a flyby on Venus on the dark side lowers the orbit instead of raises it.

I came to this conclusion experimenting with the maneuver node system.  I found that a maneuver node right after leaving Venus' SOI having the velocity components shown gives the trajectory found in the novel.  The pericytherian at Venus is very close to what's in the book, and it's a dark-side flyby.

(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/844843553287073381/B013AC8D636AB78A79A159296D5B75D5CAFF1FB2/)

It gives an arrival date at Mars of March 23rd, 1986, which is two days from canon.

The delta v of that maneuver node is about 6,537 m/s.  Some rough calculations show that the velocity difference between the orbit before and after the encounter is about 9 km/s, which I would put a +/- 2 km/s difference on that since I couldn't get exact orbital specifics, did change that maneuver node a bit, and I'm doing a very rough calculation of orbital velocities.  Finally, the difference between Earth and Venus's velocity is 5,409.3 m/s give or take.

Point is, Venus does add its velocity to the craft during the flyby.  I can make a better mathematical proof of this later when it's not 12 AM, but I think the rough numbers show that the issue with my flyby is just KSP's fault and not Baxter's.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: mike robel on 08/27/2017 05:31 AM
Cool Stuff.  I wish I had the patience to do such modeling, but alas, I don't.  Well, I do.  But it is directed toward military wargaming.
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Pipcard on 09/14/2017 07:25 AM
If Blue Origin existed in the universe of "Voyage," their fourth launch system would be called "New York."
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Ronpur50 on 09/14/2017 05:56 PM
If Blue Origin existed in the universe of "Voyage," their fourth launch system would be called "New York."


Perfect!
Title: Re: Modelling Mars
Post by: Archibald on 09/14/2017 07:35 PM
Excellent joke.