Author Topic: SLS manifest targets Europa and Mars Sample Return missions  (Read 132902 times)

Offline Chris Bergin

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/11/sls-manifest-europa-mars-sample-return-missions/

Via the new internal SLS manifest overview (L2). Also, that is what SLS will look like, thanks to super talented Nathan Koga in L2).

Yes, I know we'll get the usual suspects rushing to say "no money!" I did mention that is the major driver, but the thought process on the manifest is the interesting thing here.
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Offline BrightLight

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Nice article Chris - is their any indication about funding from NASA or congress for these science missions?
« Last Edit: 11/04/2014 01:51 am by BrightLight »

Offline Martin FL

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That's a really interesting write up. Thanks!

Nice article Chris - is their any indication about funding from NASA or congress for these science missions?

And I actually read the article, unlike Brightlight ;)

Offline BrightLight

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That's a really interesting write up. Thanks!

Nice article Chris - is their any indication about funding from NASA or congress for these science missions?

And I actually read the article, unlike Brightlight ;)
I don't want to belabor this but has someone in either the House or Senate made positive suggestions for funding either a Mars return or Europa mission? - I didn't see that in the article.

Offline CyclerPilot

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I like that a Mars sample return is being discussed.  The article mentions the mars ascent vehicle docking with a crewed orion to transfer the sample canister.  Does anyone know if the transfer will take place in Earth orbit or Mars orbit?

Offline wannamoonbase

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Interesting and a small step in the right direction.

But the flight rate for Orion needs to pick up.  Once ever couple of years is too slow to be sustainable.

Edit: Carrying costs to keep the system viable will be almost the same as flying and not flying when it's that slow.
« Last Edit: 11/04/2014 02:31 am by wannamoonbase »
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Offline robertross

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Really good article Chris, thanks.

(fingers crossed something definitive can happen with SLS now)

Offline arachnitect

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I like that a Mars sample return is being discussed.  The article mentions the mars ascent vehicle docking with a crewed orion to transfer the sample canister.  Does anyone know if the transfer will take place in Earth orbit or Mars orbit?

Samples would be returned to earth/moon space robotically, picked up by manned Orion there.
A Mars sample return mission is on the order of $7-$9 billion.

It's rather nutty for the HEOMD people to start penciling-in a mission for another directorate that it is impossible for that directorate to afford. That's essentially assuming that the Science Mission Directorate would spend an entire decade's worth of procurement on a single mission. Not realistic at all.

I'm confused about this. There were some (very notional) "one shot MSR" slides from MPPG at one point, but I thought that the Mars 2020 rover plans have made that redundant? There would then be two additional missions to retrieve the samples and return them to earth; does SLS enable a two launch profile that would be advantageous somehow?

Offline Zed_Noir

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After reading the article. Do I understand the proposed Mars sample return mission need the the EUS to be in service along with EVA from the Orion/MPCV?

The EUS is currently a powerpoint, need to be in service.

The Orion have to be in service with a working service module from someone.

Doing EVA from the Orion/MPCV means more redesigns to support EVA with the capsule. Along with new EVA gear, unless you take them from the ISS program.

IRRC there is only enough RS-25 on hand for 3 or 4 flights. So the production have to be restarted by about 2020 if there is going to be SLS flights after the RS-25 supply get used up.

If the above four projects get full funding than SLS could manifest scientific missions if the payloads also get funded. That is a lot of funding over several presidential & Congressional terms.  ::)

Offline uko

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Great read, but I feel like something is mixed up in the article..
First there is talk of EM-3, with no mission outline but a date of August 15, 2023.
Then there is talk of MSR for 2024.
And after that, EM-4, again, no outline, but date of August 15, 2025.

I would think that EM-3 or EM-4 is one of those missions that returns the MSR canister?
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Offline redliox

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Re: SLS manifest targets Europa and Mars Sample Return missions
« Reply #10 on: 11/04/2014 08:48 am »
Then there is talk of MSR for 2024.
And after that, EM-4, again, no outline, but date of August 15, 2025.

I would think that EM-3 or EM-4 is one of those missions that returns the MSR canister?

Well frankly if SLS is brought into the equation it would be hauling both orbiter and lander in a single shot.  When those elements (and the sampling rover, which is pretty much the 2020 rover now) were conceived, they were presuming nothing better than an Atlas V could be employed.  Totally different payload capacities.

...of course if you mean EM-4 in the sense they send an Orion out to retrieve the capsule in deep space THAT'S another matter.  Considering we've been returning samples since Stardust it seems ridiculous to involve humans directly....in a mission heavy on contamination concerns to boot!
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Offline jgoldader

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Re: SLS manifest targets Europa and Mars Sample Return missions
« Reply #11 on: 11/04/2014 09:34 am »
The timeline is all messed up for the asteroid sampling mission.  If the robotic part (not yet designed or funded, going to an as-yet unidentified asteroid on a mission of unknown duration) is launched in 2021, then the Orion part of the mission can't happen until 2023-2024 or so at least, or maybe even later, if returning the rock to lunar orbit takes years via SEP.

And having an Orion intercept, somehow, a Mars sample-return mission seems to me to at least double the cost and complexity and risk.  Shouldn't the spacecraft returning from Mars be coming in like a bat out of Heck?  Or is it going to carry fuel to enter Earth orbit?  And if, God forbid, there's an accident on the Orion end, who wants to explain to the public why the sample return capsule couldn't just parachute into the desert, like Stardust?  This mission really sounds like make-work.  And figure $2 billion each for the SLS flights, plus billions more for the robotic part... No, a handful of dirt and rocks from Mars isn't worth $6 billion+.

This notional manifest just can't be serious.  And maybe I'm one of "the usual suspects," but there's no money for this, and I believe there won't be when the bills need to be paid.
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Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: SLS manifest targets Europa and Mars Sample Return missions
« Reply #12 on: 11/04/2014 10:49 am »
The timeline is all messed up for the asteroid sampling mission.  If the robotic part (not yet designed or funded, going to an as-yet unidentified asteroid on a mission of unknown duration) is launched in 2021, then the Orion part of the mission can't happen until 2023-2024 or so at least, or maybe even later, if returning the rock to lunar orbit takes years via SEP.

And having an Orion intercept, somehow, a Mars sample-return mission seems to me to at least double the cost and complexity and risk.  Shouldn't the spacecraft returning from Mars be coming in like a bat out of Heck?  Or is it going to carry fuel to enter Earth orbit?  And if, God forbid, there's an accident on the Orion end, who wants to explain to the public why the sample return capsule couldn't just parachute into the desert, like Stardust?  This mission really sounds like make-work.  And figure $2 billion each for the SLS flights, plus billions more for the robotic part... No, a handful of dirt and rocks from Mars isn't worth $6 billion+.

This notional manifest just can't be serious.  And maybe I'm one of "the usual suspects," but there's no money for this, and I believe there won't be when the bills need to be paid.
My guess is the asteroid retrieval mission components will be cancel and the Mars sample return mission components will take their place.

Offline Chris Bergin



IRRC there is only enough RS-25 on hand for 3 or 4 flights. So the production have to be restarted by about 2020 if there is going to be SLS flights after the RS-25 supply get used up.

That will likely be my next article. That is changing.
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Offline wannamoonbase

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Re: SLS manifest targets Europa and Mars Sample Return missions
« Reply #14 on: 11/04/2014 11:54 am »


IRRC there is only enough RS-25 on hand for 3 or 4 flights. So the production have to be restarted by about 2020 if there is going to be SLS flights after the RS-25 supply get used up.

That will likely be my next article. That is changing.

Chris, you are such a tease.  Ha ha

Now I'm going to be checking hourly until I see the story. 
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Offline Chris Bergin



IRRC there is only enough RS-25 on hand for 3 or 4 flights. So the production have to be restarted by about 2020 if there is going to be SLS flights after the RS-25 supply get used up.

That will likely be my next article. That is changing.

Chris, you are such a tease.  Ha ha

Now I'm going to be checking hourly until I see the story. 

Sorry! ;D I agreed to a news embargo on that. Not sure when it will be released, I'm hoping real soon, but when a company is responsive and then asks a favor (wasn't really a demand embargo, more a cooperation embargo) then I'm always going to agree.
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Offline tesla

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Re: SLS manifest targets Europa and Mars Sample Return missions
« Reply #16 on: 11/04/2014 12:43 pm »


IRRC there is only enough RS-25 on hand for 3 or 4 flights. So the production have to be restarted by about 2020 if there is going to be SLS flights after the RS-25 supply get used up.

That will likely be my next article. That is changing.

Chris, you are such a tease.  Ha ha

Now I'm going to be checking hourly until I see the story. 

Sorry! ;D I agreed to a news embargo on that. Not sure when it will be released, I'm hoping real soon, but when a company is responsive and then asks a favor (wasn't really a demand embargo, more a cooperation embargo) then I'm always going to agree.

SLS with Raptor or BE-4 engines of course... xD Better shut up now, this is how rumors get stared.  :-X
Go SLS and Orion! God bless America.

Offline veblen

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Re: SLS manifest targets Europa and Mars Sample Return missions
« Reply #17 on: 11/04/2014 01:10 pm »
A Mars sample return mission is on the order of $7-$9 billion.

It's rather nutty for the HEOMD people to start penciling-in a mission for another directorate that it is impossible for that directorate to afford. That's essentially assuming that the Science Mission Directorate would spend an entire decade's worth of procurement on a single mission. Not realistic at all.

Just imagine a robot gets a trip to Jupiter courtesy of (for eg) 4 shuttle engines, 2 souped up SRB's and a EUS: I think this is bucking the recent space mission trend of doing more while  using less (2 for the price of one like EPOXI), wouldn't you say?;)

Offline newpylong

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Re: SLS manifest targets Europa and Mars Sample Return missions
« Reply #18 on: 11/04/2014 01:14 pm »
After reading the article. Do I understand the proposed Mars sample return mission need the the EUS to be in service along with EVA from the Orion/MPCV?

The EUS is currently a powerpoint, need to be in service.

The Orion have to be in service with a working service module from someone.

Doing EVA from the Orion/MPCV means more redesigns to support EVA with the capsule. Along with new EVA gear, unless you take them from the ISS program.

IRRC there is only enough RS-25 on hand for 3 or 4 flights. So the production have to be restarted by about 2020 if there is going to be SLS flights after the RS-25 supply get used up.

If the above four projects get full funding than SLS could manifest scientific missions if the payloads also get funded. That is a lot of funding over several presidential & Congressional terms.  ::)

This is out of scope of this thread but the existing Orion design supports non-emergency EVA. The CSM design allows vacuum. ARM is baselined to do this.

Offline robertross

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Re: SLS manifest targets Europa and Mars Sample Return missions
« Reply #19 on: 11/04/2014 01:15 pm »
A Mars sample return mission is on the order of $7-$9 billion.

It's rather nutty for the HEOMD people to start penciling-in a mission for another directorate that it is impossible for that directorate to afford. That's essentially assuming that the Science Mission Directorate would spend an entire decade's worth of procurement on a single mission. Not realistic at all.

I completely agree, however justification of flight schedule (and the number of assignable flights) is likely the over-arching goal at this stage. If they can't build momentum to back a minimum number of flights (as noted in the article), then SLS cancellation comes front & center in a constrained fiscal environment. If enough people want to go to Europa, or get a quick Mars sample return mission in, it's harder to cancel.

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