Author Topic: EM Drive Developments Thread 1  (Read 780524 times)

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1520 on: 10/05/2014 08:03 PM »
I already had a google drive folder with a few things in it so I just made this happen quickly and easily.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline ThinkerX

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1521 on: 10/05/2014 09:27 PM »
Quote
Well, for the argument, that could also be a neutrino jet, or any light particle with more kinetic energy than rest mass. The photon with a 0 rest mass is just a limit case. Also this is getting convoluted : have to take incoming DM <500km/s, and convert mass content to kinetic energy of collimated ejected relativistic particles that are light enough (otherwise they are less relativistic, and thrust is worse) and wall crossing (neutrinos, X rays). Mmm, you could even do the following : take incoming DM <500km/s, convert mass to energy, and with the energy of 1 million DM particles, accelerate 1 DM particle at relativistic speed.

Would be dark matter powered dark matter jet rocket. Call that a "dark matter ramjet". Unless anyone can point me to previous publication or grant, I hereby take precedence on that concept  8)

An SF author, Mike Brotherton, beat you to it in 2008.  His 'dark drive,' a sort of 'dark matter bussard ramjet,' was the drive for his starships in 'Spider Star.'  Worth noting: before writing SF, he had a PHD in Astronomy, held a research position at 'Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory' (whatever that is:) ) and Kitt Peak National Observatory.  Seems to be a bit of an X-Ray expert.  However, the description of his 'dark drive' was superficial.

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1522 on: 10/05/2014 10:13 PM »
On the subject of wall crossing particles, anyone have any ideas on how a particle within the emdrive could be wall crossing at the big end but not the other walls given how it was designed?
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1523 on: 10/05/2014 10:18 PM »
On the subject of wall crossing particles, anyone have any ideas on how a particle within the emdrive could be wall crossing at the big end but not the other walls given how it was designed?

Take a look at the differences between the walls of the tapered cavity and its ends.  The walls are metallic (copper).  The end surfaces appear to be circuit board polymer material perhaps PCB.  I recall that @notsosureofit recognized the circuit board material as material @notsosureofit has in house.

There appears to be a difference in color between the large and smaller end surfaces, but it may just be a matter of lighting.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2014 10:19 PM by Rodal »

Offline Notsosureofit

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1524 on: 10/05/2014 10:18 PM »
Yes, long wavelength interaction w/ a condensate of bosons acts like a phonon generation.

It's in here: http://cua.mit.edu/8.422_S07/BECinDiluteGases205-214.pdf

My head hertz.

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1525 on: 10/05/2014 10:30 PM »
The fact that operating at a frequency of 1937 MHz has a Q more than 4 times higher but a thrust force 1/2 as much as operating at a frequency of 1933 MHz is extremely problematic for all these inertia theories if they ignore the dielectric:

1) McCulloch  (Unruth radiation)
2) the ZPF and Cassimir effect theories

because the frequencies are practically the same (0.3% difference between them) yet the thrust forces differ by a factor of 2.  Also the effect is very contrary to Prof. McCulloch  's model which is proportional to Q and inversely proportional to frequency.  The thrust at 1937 is 1/2 as much while according to McCulloch's formula should be 4 times as high.

All the ZPF theories have similar problems. This is a death knell for all of them if they ignore the dielectric.

Again, an analysis of this effect needs a consideration of the dielectric thermoplastic.  It may be difficult to consider the dielectric thermoplastic effect in all of this (including its nonlinearity), but the data all points in that direction.  Einstein said to make things as easy as possible but never simpler than necessary.  Any theory that ignores the dielectric cannot explain the results
« Last Edit: 10/05/2014 10:37 PM by Rodal »

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1526 on: 10/05/2014 10:38 PM »
Yes, long wavelength interaction w/ a condensate of bosons acts like a phonon generation.

It's in here: http://cua.mit.edu/8.422_S07/BECinDiluteGases205-214.pdf

My head hertz.

Somebody call NDT!
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1527 on: 10/05/2014 10:45 PM »
The fact that operating at a frequency of 1937 MHz has a Q more than 4 times higher but a thrust force 1/2 as much as operating at a frequency of 1933 MHz is extremely problematic for all these inertia theories if they ignore the dielectric:

1) McCulloch  (Unruth radiation)
2) the ZPF and Cassimir effect theories

because the frequencies are practically the same (0.3% difference between them) yet the thrust forces differ by a factor of 2.  Also the effect is very contrary to Prof. McCulloch  's model which is proportional to Q and inversely proportional to frequency.  The thrust at 1937 is 1/2 as much while according to McCulloch's formula should be 4 times as high.

All the ZPF theories have similar problems. This is a death knell for all of them if they ignore the dielectric.

Again, an analysis of this effect needs a consideration of the dielectric thermoplastic.  It may be difficult to consider the dielectric thermoplastic effect in all of this (including its nonlinearity), but the data all points in that direction.  Einstein said to make things as easy as possible but never simpler than necessary.  Any theory that ignores the dielectric cannot explain the results

I can't argue with that. It is dependent on how tightly the dielectric modes are constrained. I saw that discrepancy and didn't question it. Good job.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1528 on: 10/05/2014 10:46 PM »
somebody call the Nuclear Decommissioning Trust ? :)

Offline Notsosureofit

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1529 on: 10/05/2014 10:48 PM »
Yes, long wavelength interaction w/ a condensate of bosons acts like a phonon generation.

It's in here: http://cua.mit.edu/8.422_S07/BECinDiluteGases205-214.pdf

My head hertz.

Somebody call NDT!


So anyway, what that all means is: if the cloud of dark matter is composed of axions AND if they have formed (as was in some axion paper back there) a Bose-Einstein condensate, one does not need enough energy to create axions, just enough to raise the state of some.  If you do this the exitation propagates like a "phonon" in the condensate, which is a momentum transfer against the entire condensate (ie the "ocean to push against)

Highly speculative, who wants to try a calculation ?

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1530 on: 10/05/2014 10:50 PM »
somebody call the Nuclear Decommissioning Trust ? :)

Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1531 on: 10/05/2014 10:52 PM »
Yes, long wavelength interaction w/ a condensate of bosons acts like a phonon generation.

It's in here: http://cua.mit.edu/8.422_S07/BECinDiluteGases205-214.pdf

My head hertz.

Somebody call NDT!


So anyway, what that all means is: if the cloud of dark matter is composed of axions AND if they have formed (as was in some axion paper back there) a Bose-Einstein condensate, one does not need enough energy to create axions, just enough to raise the state of some.  If you do this the exitation propagates like a "phonon" in the condensate, which is a momentum transfer against the entire condensate (ie the "ocean to push against)

Highly speculative, who wants to try a calculation ?

I never thought I would "like" a thing about dark matter. I have believed two impossible things today.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1532 on: 10/05/2014 11:00 PM »
The fact that operating at a frequency of 1937 MHz has a Q more than 4 times higher but a thrust force 1/2 as much as operating at a frequency of 1933 MHz is extremely problematic for all these inertia theories if they ignore the dielectric:

1) McCulloch  (Unruth radiation)
2) the ZPF and Cassimir effect theories

because the frequencies are practically the same (0.3% difference between them) yet the thrust forces differ by a factor of 2.  Also the effect is very contrary to Prof. McCulloch  's model which is proportional to Q and inversely proportional to frequency.  The thrust at 1937 is 1/2 as much while according to McCulloch's formula should be 4 times as high.

All the ZPF theories have similar problems. This is a death knell for all of them if they ignore the dielectric.

Again, an analysis of this effect needs a consideration of the dielectric thermoplastic.  It may be difficult to consider the dielectric thermoplastic effect in all of this (including its nonlinearity), but the data all points in that direction.  Einstein said to make things as easy as possible but never simpler than necessary.  Any theory that ignores the dielectric cannot explain the results

Also this analysis of mode shapes  Took a while to find this again.
http://www.gregegan.net/SCIENCE/Cavity/Cavity.html cannot explain the experimental results.

The energy density for both the magnetic and electric fields increase with the frequency. This analysis cannot   explain the fact that the thrust would differ by a factor of 2 at frequencies less than 0.3% apart.

Either this is due to:

a) The actual cavity is not rotationally symmetric (the only hint of this is the off center inner circle)
or
b) the effect is not at all due to the mode shape but something to do with the dielectric not that related to mode shape (and even less related to Q )

Based on my experience (I have not done an analysis yet) I favor b) since I cannot justify such huge differences for this geometry based on such a small frequency difference.

There is something important we are missing here
« Last Edit: 10/05/2014 11:17 PM by Rodal »

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1533 on: 10/05/2014 11:02 PM »
WRT to nature not providing a means for having that hoverboard thing... nature does allow for it. practical considerations get in the way; but nature allows it. You just have to overcome a magnetic to gravity coupling factor of trillions to one according to GR. (i learnt that when reading about the ESA and Martin Tajmar's paper.) It does not matter much that Tajmar recanted. His recantation does not negate GR itself.)

but the upshot is you can have a hover board. it's probably be the size of the empire state building laid on it's side but you could have one. In theory at least.
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1534 on: 10/05/2014 11:05 PM »
We're finding transformations here in this forum at pretty much every energy level, relating to converting electricity to mechanical thrust. It is becoming apparent to me that the underlying mechanisms for why the emdrive might have done something, is a complex mechanism taking place at several energy levels at once, with transformations in between. As in real life, most things happen on a spectrum and aren't cut and dry. The modes we can access depend on the limits of our technology, so indeed it seems likely that most of the effect is dielectric related in this test article. If it works, we can continually optimize it by accessing greater and greater energies as technology evolves. I hope we can influence some folks to come over and really tear this problem apart.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2014 11:12 PM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1535 on: 10/05/2014 11:10 PM »
The fact that operating at a frequency of 1937 MHz has a Q more than 4 times higher but a thrust force 1/2 as much as operating at a frequency of 1933 MHz is extremely problematic for all these inertia theories if they ignore the dielectric:

1) McCulloch  (Unruth radiation)
2) the ZPF and Cassimir effect theories

because the frequencies are practically the same (0.3% difference between them) yet the thrust forces differ by a factor of 2.  Also the effect is very contrary to Prof. McCulloch  's model which is proportional to Q and inversely proportional to frequency.  The thrust at 1937 is 1/2 as much while according to McCulloch's formula should be 4 times as high.

All the ZPF theories have similar problems. This is a death knell for all of them if they ignore the dielectric.

Again, an analysis of this effect needs a consideration of the dielectric thermoplastic.  It may be difficult to consider the dielectric thermoplastic effect in all of this (including its nonlinearity), but the data all points in that direction.  Einstein said to make things as easy as possible but never simpler than necessary.  Any theory that ignores the dielectric cannot explain the results

Also this analysis of mode shapes  Took a while to find this again.
http://www.gregegan.net/SCIENCE/Cavity/Cavity.html cannot explain the experimental results.

The energy density for both the magnetic and electric fields increase with the frequency. This analysis cannot   explain the fact that the thrust would differ by a factor of 2 at frequencies less than 0.3% apart.

Either this is due to:

a) The actual cavity is not rotationally symmetric (the only hint of this is the off center inner circle)
or
b) the effect is not at all due to the mode shape but something to do with the dielectric not that related to mode shape (and even less related to Q )

Based on my experience (I have not done an analysis yet) I favor b) since I cannot justify such huge differences for this geometry based on such a small frequency difference.

There is something important we are missing here

I cannot justify such a huge difference on thrust

Well the Cannae did provide a thrust too, and it isn't shaped like a bell. I previously asserted the pillbox didn't matter, and way way back in my posts, I advised to design the thing instead taking cues from coax cables, and cluster them, because of the Cannae tube. Later I dropped that in favor of clustering cone shapes in a wafer. Maybe I was right the first time.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Notsosureofit

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1536 on: 10/05/2014 11:16 PM »
Yes, long wavelength interaction w/ a condensate of bosons acts like a phonon generation.

It's in here: http://cua.mit.edu/8.422_S07/BECinDiluteGases205-214.pdf

My head hertz.

Somebody call NDT!


So anyway, what that all means is: if the cloud of dark matter is composed of axions AND if they have formed (as was in some axion paper back there) a Bose-Einstein condensate, one does not need enough energy to create axions, just enough to raise the state of some.  If you do this the exitation propagates like a "phonon" in the condensate, which is a momentum transfer against the entire condensate (ie the "ocean to push against)

Highly speculative, who wants to try a calculation ?

I never thought I would "like" a thing about dark matter. I have believed two impossible things today.

Gotta keep turnin ova rocks :http://arxiv.org/pdf/1303.1137v1.pdf

This last is an experimental demonstration.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2014 11:25 PM by Notsosureofit »

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1537 on: 10/05/2014 11:20 PM »
..
Well the Cannae did provide a thrust too, and it isn't shaped like a bell. I previously asserted the pillbox didn't matter, and way way back in my posts, I advised to design the thing instead taking cues from coax cables, and cluster them, because of the Cannae tube. Later I dropped that in favor of clustering cone shapes in a wafer. Maybe I was right the first time.
Yes you deserve lots of credit for that.  There has been an assumption about the cavity and the Q that are completely negated by the experimental results.

But this doesn't mean that this is a propellant less device.  The effect still maybe an artifact due to the magnetic damper field interacting with the power cable and the dielectric.

The first thing that NASA should do is:

run everything from a battery, self-contained, as done by Brito, Marini and Galian

damp the pendulum with oil or other non-magnetic damper as done by Brito, Marini and Galian


No external power
No magnetic field from the magnetic damper

There are a number of people in this forum that have asked for this to go into space.  This thing should first be run with a battery and without a magnetic damper.  That should be much faster, easier and cheaper to do than sending this into space.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2014 11:50 PM by Rodal »

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1538 on: 10/05/2014 11:27 PM »
Someone will read our ramblings. Some will laugh but some will raise an eyebrow. Btw I shared ALL my bookmarks on the Google Drive doc. Now I'm going to sleep. Later.
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline aero

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #1539 on: 10/05/2014 11:52 PM »
The fact that operating at a frequency of 1937 MHz has a Q more than 4 times higher but a thrust force 1/2 as much as operating at a frequency of 1933 MHz is extremely problematic for all these inertia theories if they ignore the dielectric:

1) McCulloch  (Unruth radiation)
2) the ZPF and Cassimir effect theories

because the frequencies are practically the same (0.3% difference between them) yet the thrust forces differ by a factor of 2.  Also the effect is very contrary to Prof. McCulloch  's model which is proportional to Q and inversely proportional to frequency.  The thrust at 1937 is 1/2 as much while according to McCulloch's formula should be 4 times as high.

All the ZPF theories have similar problems. This is a death knell for all of them if they ignore the dielectric.

Again, an analysis of this effect needs a consideration of the dielectric thermoplastic.  It may be difficult to consider the dielectric thermoplastic effect in all of this (including its nonlinearity), but the data all points in that direction.  Einstein said to make things as easy as possible but never simpler than necessary.  Any theory that ignores the dielectric cannot explain the results

Also this analysis of mode shapes  Took a while to find this again.
http://www.gregegan.net/SCIENCE/Cavity/Cavity.html cannot explain the experimental results.

The energy density for both the magnetic and electric fields increase with the frequency. This analysis cannot   explain the fact that the thrust would differ by a factor of 2 at frequencies less than 0.3% apart.

Either this is due to:

a) The actual cavity is not rotationally symmetric (the only hint of this is the off center inner circle)
or
b) the effect is not at all due to the mode shape but something to do with the dielectric not that related to mode shape (and even less related to Q )

Based on my experience (I have not done an analysis yet) I favor b) since I cannot justify such huge differences for this geometry based on such a small frequency difference.

There is something important we are missing here

I cannot justify such a huge difference on thrust

Well the Cannae did provide a thrust too, and it isn't shaped like a bell. I previously asserted the pillbox didn't matter, and way way back in my posts, I advised to design the thing instead taking cues from coax cables, and cluster them, because of the Cannae tube. Later I dropped that in favor of clustering cone shapes in a wafer. Maybe I was right the first time.

Well, the frequency is only a little different but the drive power is also a lot different. So is the energy within the cavity a lot different.

If the energy is coupling with some unknown particle couldn't it be quite sensitive to the rate of change of wave amplitude (frequency and power) within the cavity? So what would the mass of the particle need to be in order for it couple with more strongly in one case than the other? Just throwing it out there.
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