We've had some discussions about the Pu-238 supply issue in the past:http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26900.0http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=16912.0There is now good news on this front. After six years of effort by NASA officials, and 20+ years since the last American Pu-238 production, in August the Department of Energy inserted some Neptunium targets into a reactor in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, irradiated them, and removed them in September. They are now in the process of refining those targets to extract minute amounts of Pu-238, which has been used in the past to power numerous American spacecraft and currently powers the Curiosity rover on Mars.This is NOT production of Pu-238. Instead, this is essentially an initial test run so that DoE can determine if their processes and handling procedures and production models for Pu-238 are correct. As a NASA official told me, the last time that DoE ever handled this stuff in this form was over two decades ago--the only thing they have been doing since then is handling the essentially finished product, not the production, and there's a lot that they need to re-learn about doing that.I was also told that NASA no longer expects the Russians to offer their remaining Pu-238 for sale, and NASA is not interested in purchasing it. Instead of giving NASA money to the Russians, NASA would rather spend that money on indigenous production.I did not find out when they expect to actually start producing Pu-238 again, but my guess is that they'll do that in the next 1-2 years.
Quote from: Blackstar on 10/27/2012 01:25 amThey are now in the process of refining those targets to extract minute amounts of Pu-238, ...Any idea where this refining will take place? They're tearing down buildings in Paducah where Oak Ridge's gaseous diffusion took place during the later years of the Cold War. A bit of a mess there, as in many similar places like Hanford or Rocky Flats, with nasty clean up and former worker cancers, etc. - Ed Kyle
They are now in the process of refining those targets to extract minute amounts of Pu-238, ...
Last I read was that the Advanced Test Reactor at the Idaho National Laboratory and the High Flux Isotope Reactor at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory were the top potential producers.
First time I've seen this get mentioned in the Public Media.http://news.yahoo.com/u-restarts-plutonium-production-space-probes-013110181.html
Blackstar, he's just pulling down you being over the moon with this news, I don't even think if we filled your pockets with all the Pu-238 ever produced we could pull you off of cloud 9 and back down to earth Short of someone developing a tabletop fusion device, this is the only way we are ever going to explore the outer solar system. It is great to see the US re-taking it's lead.
Most likely the probably want it to be used in things like UAVs so that they may fly for years rather than days.
The only problem I have is that I doubt their production rate of 1.5 kg per year will be enough to satisfy demand. 1.5 kg per year is only enough to supply an unmanned mission every 5 years. Manned missions to Mars or the Moon would require much more.At the same time the DOD has expressed interest in using Pu-238 for some yet to be disclosed national security purpose. Most likely the probably want it to be used in things like UAVs so that they may fly for years rather than days.
AFAIK, DoD is referring mainly to satellites.
Quote from: russianhalo117 on 03/21/2013 01:16 pmAFAIK, DoD is referring mainly to satellites.Are you sure, space is not the only remote hard to reach location that lacks a power outlet.
1-The only problem I have is that I doubt their production rate of 1.5 kg per year will be enough to satisfy demand. 1.5 kg per year is only enough to supply an unmanned mission every 5 years. 2-Manned missions to Mars or the Moon would require much more.3-At the same time the DOD has expressed interest in using Pu-238 for some yet to be disclosed national security purpose. Most likely the probably want it to be used in things like UAVs so that they may fly for years rather than days.
NASA is a collection of people, centers, programs, offices, and budgets. They are not one single collective. They have specific budgets for their work and they seek to protect their budgets. If somebody from another program, particularly outside of their directorate (NASA has four directorates), or even outside of their division comes to them and says "I want you to do X for me," the first response they will get is "Do you have the money in your budget to pay me to do that?" If the answer is "no," then they will be shown the door.
Quote from: kevin-rf on 03/21/2013 01:23 pmQuote from: russianhalo117 on 03/21/2013 01:16 pmAFAIK, DoD is referring mainly to satellites.Are you sure, space is not the only remote hard to reach location that lacks a power outlet. I meant mostly not mainly.
Quote from: DarkenedOne on 03/21/2013 11:45 am1-The only problem I have is that I doubt their production rate of 1.5 kg per year will be enough to satisfy demand. 1.5 kg per year is only enough to supply an unmanned mission every 5 years. 2-Manned missions to Mars or the Moon would require much more.3-At the same time the DOD has expressed interest in using Pu-238 for some yet to be disclosed national security purpose. Most likely the probably want it to be used in things like UAVs so that they may fly for years rather than days. 1-Right now the "demand" is only 1.5 kg per year.
2-That is true. However, they are not approved and funded, so they pose no demand. If they get approved and funded, and if they determine that they require Pu-238, then they (the human spaceflight program) will be expected to pay for it and the supply will be increased.
We actually considered this issue during our study back in 2008 or so. Somewhere I probably even have NASA's briefing chart on this. If I remember correctly, the human spaceflight stated requirement was something like twice the robotic/science requirement. At that time the Constellation program was considering using RTGs/ASRGs to provide backup emergency power for a lunar outpost. It was a legitimate use, assuming that NASA actually developed a lunar outpost. However, at the time we looked at this, we all realized that either Constellation was going to get scaled back or canceled, and that their requirement was not going to emerge until the 2020s or 2030s at the earliest. So the committee instead focused upon the much more near-term requirement for the science program. And to be totally honest, the most important thing was simply restarting production, not how much actually gets produced. That's because the restart cost is the greatest cost. You have to fund people, new equipment, and processes (and things like lab space for doing the processing). Once you've done that, then you can worry about increasing production later.
And although you won't understand this because it's obscure Washington policy-wonky stuff, the key issue is getting the bureaucracy to MOVE. The easiest thing in the world is doing nothing. What was most important was to get production started so that everybody was comfortable with that and willing to keep producing Pu-238 and wasn't going to stop. The bizarre thing about this is that NASA and DoE were in agreement on restarting Pu-238 production. The White House was in favor of it. And nobody was opposed to it from an anti-nuke standpoint. And yet it took SIX YEARS simply to get the go-ahead. That's because of weird inside government issues.
I do not see anything changing until either NASA is given the right to produce its own Pu-238