Author Topic: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes  (Read 23422 times)

Offline 93143

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
  • Liked: 312
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #20 on: 12/08/2013 08:59 pm »
[Bane's voice in my head right now:  "...and he shall appear!"]

to send information across the universe in an apparent violation of the physics as we presently understand them.

Using a wormhole to communicate superluminally is not a violation of currently-understood physics.  It's allowed by general relativity (wormholes are a real, studied class of spacetime metrics), and not disallowed by quantum mechanics (unless you can show that the formation of a sufficiently benign wormhole is forbidden, which is by no means clear, but that's a separate issue from the communication itself).

The prohibition on superluminal communication is from special relativity, and only holds in flat space.

The objections on causal grounds are just philosophical objections from people who are uncomfortable with the implications.  They are not based on any known physical principle (and IMO are on fairly shaky philosophical ground too).

Besides, this 1984 JBIS paper suggests that superluminal travel (=communication) doesn't necessarily result in such causality violation anyway...
« Last Edit: 12/08/2013 09:20 pm by 93143 »

Offline QuantumG

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9238
  • Australia
  • Liked: 4477
  • Likes Given: 1108
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #21 on: 12/08/2013 09:24 pm »
More to the point, this paper is about a quantum gravity theory that would supersede general relativity, if widely accepted. To be that, it will need to make some accurate predictions which  general relativity doesn't, and preferably be easier to use.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline JohnFornaro

  • Not an expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10974
  • Delta-t is an important metric.
  • Planet Eaarth
    • Design / Program Associates
  • Liked: 1257
  • Likes Given: 724
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #22 on: 12/08/2013 10:30 pm »
[Bane's voice in my head right now:  "...and he shall appear!"]

to send information across the universe in an apparent violation of the physics as we presently understand them.

Using a wormhole to communicate superluminally is not a violation of currently-understood physics.

Then "all you have to do" is send a message across the universe, and get back to me yesterday on how well that went.
« Last Edit: 12/08/2013 10:31 pm by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline 93143

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
  • Liked: 312
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #23 on: 12/09/2013 07:21 am »
You do understand the distinction between currently accepted physics and currently available technology, right?

Offline KelvinZero

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4286
  • Liked: 887
  • Likes Given: 201
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #24 on: 12/09/2013 07:25 am »
[Bane's voice in my head right now:  "...and he shall appear!"]

to send information across the universe in an apparent violation of the physics as we presently understand them.

The objections on causal grounds are just philosophical objections from people who are uncomfortable with the implications.  They are not based on any known physical principle (and IMO are on fairly shaky philosophical ground too).

Besides, this 1984 JBIS paper suggests that superluminal travel (=communication) doesn't necessarily result in such causality violation anyway...

I really dont think it is a matter of timidity. In any case I would only consider accepting such a pronouncement from one of the superstars of physics (and they can be arrogant and wrong like anyone else).

The reason you cannot dismiss causality casually is because if you have a paradox, you don't even know what you have. You can't describe it's behavior. Sure you might have FTL, but if you can't describe its rules I would just assume it is one of the known exceptions, such as not carrying data, or expansion in one direction only.

That censor field is interesting and I would like to have a better idea of how it would feel to live in such a universe. I expect that travel in one direction slows travel in the opposite direction for some period or something like that. It would be great to see it broken down in a form simple enough for StarTrek episode writers to obey.




Offline gospacex

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3024
  • Liked: 543
  • Likes Given: 604
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #25 on: 12/09/2013 10:52 am »
The General Relativity is not proven enough to make plans about building wormholes. It has quite a number of problems.

GR is a classical theory, no consistent quantization was found yet.

In GR, gravitation is merely a spacetime curvature, so it isn't "really" a field. But since variable gravity can create waves, which can move other objects, then these waves must be carrying energy. But in GR, there is no consistent way to express this energy of gravitational waves - whatever method you pick, there is a coordinate system where it vanishes.

In GR, there is no consistent way to define energy globally - it can only be defined for small local (infinitestimal) regions of spacetime. As an example, because of metric expansion of space, energy density of a cubic light-year filled with cold hydrogen goes down proportionately to delta-L^3 (where L is length scale), but energy density of a cubic light-year filled with electromagnetic radiation  goes down as delta-L^4 (!) - redshift eats an additional part of energy proportional to delta-L. How about conservation of energy?!

In GR, as you all know, there are solutions with singularities. It is actually pretty bad: apparently, if a particle travels on its worldline and meets a singularity, the time coordinate... just ends there. That just does not make sense. How coordinate can *end*??

GR does not allow spin-orbit interaction, but we know it exists, and it is even used in some devices now.

There are modified versions of GR which fix spin-orbit problem. One is Einsten-Cartan theory, basically GR + spin. There are several others.

Many of them predict the same observable effects we saw so far when we were testing GR: frame dragging, gravitational time dilation and redshift, and so on. So they are not any less credible than "standard" GR.

These other theories predict different things when we look at extremely strong fields. For example, recent results show that Einsten-Cartan theory may be avoiding singularity problem.

I take this indicates that we are bound to get a better theory of gravity. Then this whole wormhole business will need to be revisited based on the new theory.
« Last Edit: 12/09/2013 10:54 am by gospacex »

Offline gospacex

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3024
  • Liked: 543
  • Likes Given: 604
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #26 on: 12/09/2013 11:06 am »
The reason you cannot dismiss causality casually is because if you have a paradox, you don't even know what you have. You can't describe it's behavior.

I think causality problems can be resolved akin to what has to be done to complex logarithm function to make sense:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_logarithm

Check the picture at the bottom of the page.

"The various branches of log z cannot be glued to give a single function log C*->C because two branches may give different values at a point where both are defined."

Similarly, if we go around a closed timelike curve, causality holds locally at every point, but when we return to the "same" point in spacetime, it is not really the same point. Spacetime got foliated.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #27 on: 12/09/2013 11:55 pm »
there was another article on wormholes and time travel and how worm holes make it easier to come up with a quantum theory of gravity.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/12/131208090633.htm

When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline KelvinZero

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4286
  • Liked: 887
  • Likes Given: 201
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #28 on: 12/10/2013 07:58 am »
I think causality problems can be resolved akin to what has to be done to complex logarithm function to make sense:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_logarithm

Check the picture at the bottom of the page.

"The various branches of log z cannot be glued to give a single function log C*->C because two branches may give different values at a point where both are defined."

Similarly, if we go around a closed timelike curve, causality holds locally at every point, but when we return to the "same" point in spacetime, it is not really the same point. Spacetime got foliated.
Um.. I think I need some of those explanations simple enough for start trek episode writers around about now ;)

How would FTL behave according to that idea?

Offline watermod

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 519
  • Liked: 177
  • Likes Given: 153
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #29 on: 12/10/2013 07:13 pm »
If you look at this article  http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100111091222.htm regarding an entanglement experiment on a solid state circuit...  Then would the current article suggest a micro-wormhole on the solid state device?
If so then one can make a test-bed platform for experiments to answer some of the questions.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #30 on: 12/11/2013 10:15 am »
they're everywhere! They're everywhere!  ;D
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline JohnFornaro

  • Not an expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10974
  • Delta-t is an important metric.
  • Planet Eaarth
    • Design / Program Associates
  • Liked: 1257
  • Likes Given: 724
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #31 on: 12/11/2013 02:28 pm »
You do understand the distinction between currently accepted physics and currently available technology, right?

Oh yeah.  That's why, pragmatically speaking, "all you have to do" is send a message across the universe, and get back to me yesterday on how well that went.

That's all there is to do next if the "currently accepted physics" is complete in every detail, right?

Put another way, you do realize that I am strenuously objecting to phraseology of simplicity when clearly all the facts are not known, and what is being phrased seems to break the rules of causality, as if these rules are there to be broken, such as this pseudo-scientific phraseology, which has no scientific backing whatsoever:

"The objections on causal grounds are just philosophical objections from people who are uncomfortable with the implications."
« Last Edit: 12/11/2013 02:37 pm by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #32 on: 12/18/2013 07:03 pm »
If a wormhole is opened, I have heard that it is impossible to travel farther back in time than when the wormhole was created (please see diagram).

It seems a traveler could only arrive before he left if the wormhole was around at the time before when he arrives before leaving.

I remember an article on Dr Reginald Mallet's laser ring based frame dragging time machine idea that had a similar constraint. But i am not sure that the same constraint would apply to wormholes because some natural wormholes probably opened at all times throughout the existence of the universe. Do ERP bridges have the same constraint?
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #33 on: 12/19/2013 08:53 pm »
so if entanglement is a result of wormholes does that mean that kilometers long entanglement experiments have created wormholes that are kilometers long? and when they do the orbital entanglement experiment that has been proposed does that mean we have worm holes that reach orbital distances?
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline QuantumG

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9238
  • Australia
  • Liked: 4477
  • Likes Given: 1108
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #34 on: 12/19/2013 10:42 pm »
so if entanglement is a result of wormholes does that mean that kilometers long entanglement experiments have created wormholes that are kilometers long? and when they do the orbital entanglement experiment that has been proposed does that mean we have worm holes that reach orbital distances?

That's the theory.. but seeing these are the non-exotic forms of wormholes, it doesn't really mean anything.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #35 on: 12/20/2013 02:08 am »


That's the theory.. but seeing these are the non-exotic forms of wormholes, it doesn't really mean anything.

well for several reasons, yeah. I am not sure what you mean by non exotic; but you can't use wormholes for several reasons. normally they are transient. normally their aperture are so small nothing we know of can go through them. contact causes collapse too. but the thing i am getting at is the distant possibility of altering the set up so the restricting conditions do not apply.

we already know the things are quite ubiquitous.
now we have examples of man caused wormholes of macroscopic lengths.

we need to learn to isolate an individual wormhole without collapsing it.
we need to learn how to fix the ends of one.
we need to learn how to enlarge the openings without using prohibitive amounts of regular or exotic forms of energy or matter.
it would be good to be able to remotely control the location of the far aperture although we do not really need to ultimately in order for them to be useful.
if there is an event horizon then we need to learn how to eliminate it without destroying either the wormhole or the universe.

so lets say we do all of this (except remotely controlling the far opening.)
to use them for interstellar travel you would need to first take the far aperture to the destination location by conventional slow poke means. it could take hundreds or thousands of years. but you could still use it for interstellar travel once the initial trip is made. E.G; once a trip to Alpha Centauri (taking anywhere from 5 to 1700 years) is made from then on two way traffic and communications would be instantaneous.

And inside the solar system it would be even more useful. for example you could have apertures in orbit or on planetary surfaces. you could put any amount of stuff in orbit. you could move any amount of cargo and supplies and people to the moon or mars or wherever.

or you could use it to dump stuff into the sun like toxic waste or spent nuclear fuel.

EDIT this just reminded me:  there was a Japanese cartoon called Galaxy Express 999 in which the galaxy was lined together by a train line that had tracks going through dimensional portals or wormholes so you could get on a train and ride from places on your home world and ride to locations on the other side of the galaxy. to make it even more awesome the train engine was an old steam powered locomotive complete with cow catcher.
« Last Edit: 12/20/2013 02:17 am by Stormbringer »
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Offline QuantumG

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9238
  • Australia
  • Liked: 4477
  • Likes Given: 1108
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #36 on: 12/20/2013 02:32 am »
So, I'm guessing you've never read Peter F. Hamilton's Commonwealth series.

http://www.amazon.com/Pandoras-Star-Peter-F-Hamilton/dp/0345479211

I think the first book is fantastic, and it goes downhill after the 3rd. Your mileage may vary.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline scienceguy

  • Regular
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 836
  • Lethbridge, Alberta
  • Liked: 155
  • Likes Given: 279
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #37 on: 12/20/2013 02:35 am »


we already know the things are quite ubiquitous.
now we have examples of man caused wormholes of macroscopic lengths.



citation?
e^(pi*i) = -1

Offline QuantumG

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9238
  • Australia
  • Liked: 4477
  • Likes Given: 1108
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #38 on: 12/20/2013 02:36 am »


we already know the things are quite ubiquitous.
now we have examples of man caused wormholes of macroscopic lengths.



citation?

He means: according to this theory that entanglement = wormholes.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline Stormbringer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
  • Liked: 239
  • Likes Given: 92
Re: Quantum Entanglement is the equivelent of Worm Holes
« Reply #39 on: 12/20/2013 03:15 am »


we already know the things are quite ubiquitous.
now we have examples of man caused wormholes of macroscopic lengths.



citation?

He means: according to this theory that entanglement = wormholes.

that and the gravity equals wormholes thing too. so really there are at least three or 4 articles and at least two or three peer reviewed or pending review papers on it which can be tracked down in the footnotes of those articles.
When antigravity is outlawed only outlaws will have antigravity.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0