Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. And that is what this thread has become with the exception of a few people. Therefore, I will check back in a 2 weeks. But until the traveler stops posting nonsensical crap I am gone for now.
Somebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:<<You need to ask yourself why copper mesh is not used in the microwave industry to build waveguides? Would be heaps lighter, lower weight and cost.Might be because mesh it is good at absorbing microwave energy that strikes it but bad at reflecting / propogating microwave energy that strikes it.The inside of your cavity needs to be very highly polished, ding & scratch free rigid copper that reflects and propogates microwave energy with VERY little energy loss, instead of absorbing the energy and turning it into heat.>>That's not correct, actually in the aerospace industry the use of a mesh is quite common:" Why is my Satellite Dish full of holes?" http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=16208.0Wikipedia <<With lower frequencies, C-band for example (IEEE C 4 – 8 GHz), dish designers have a wider choice of materials. The large size of dish required for lower frequencies led to the dishes being constructed from metal mesh on a metal framework. At higher frequencies, mesh type designs are rarer though some designs have used a solid dish with perforations>>
Somebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:<<You need to ask yourself why copper mesh is not used in the microwave industry to build waveguides? Would be heaps lighter, lower weight and cost.Might be because mesh it is good at absorbing microwave energy that strikes it but bad at reflecting / propogating microwave energy that strikes it.The inside of your cavity needs to be very highly polished, ding & scratch free rigid copper that reflects and propogates microwave energy with VERY little energy loss, instead of absorbing the energy and turning it into heat.>>That's not correct, actually in the aerospace industry the use of a mesh is quite common:" Why is my Satellite Dish full of holes?" http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=16208.0"A study of microwave transmission perforated flat plates" http://ipnpr.jpl.nasa.gov/progress_report2/II/IIO.PDFWikipedia <<With lower frequencies, C-band for example (IEEE C 4 – 8 GHz), dish designers have a wider choice of materials. The large size of dish required for lower frequencies led to the dishes being constructed from metal mesh on a metal framework. At higher frequencies, mesh type designs are rarer though some designs have used a solid dish with perforations>>http://www.yldperforatedmetal.com/Perforated-Metal-Screen.htm
Quote from: Rodal on 07/11/2015 02:16 pmSomebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:<<You need to ask yourself why copper mesh is not used in the microwave industry to build waveguides? Would be heaps lighter, lower weight and cost.Might be because mesh it is good at absorbing microwave energy that strikes it but bad at reflecting / propogating microwave energy that strikes it.The inside of your cavity needs to be very highly polished, ding & scratch free rigid copper that reflects and propogates microwave energy with VERY little energy loss, instead of absorbing the energy and turning it into heat.>>That's not correct, actually in the aerospace industry the use of a mesh is quite common:" Why is my Satellite Dish full of holes?" http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=16208.0Wikipedia <<With lower frequencies, C-band for example (IEEE C 4 – 8 GHz), dish designers have a wider choice of materials. The large size of dish required for lower frequencies led to the dishes being constructed from metal mesh on a metal framework. At higher frequencies, mesh type designs are rarer though some designs have used a solid dish with perforations>>I will state my case again:Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.
Quote from: Rodal on 07/11/2015 02:16 pmSomebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:I will state my case again:Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.
Somebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:
Quote from: TheTraveller on 07/11/2015 02:22 pmQuote from: Rodal on 07/11/2015 02:16 pmSomebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:<<You need to ask yourself why copper mesh is not used in the microwave industry to build waveguides? Would be heaps lighter, lower weight and cost.Might be because mesh it is good at absorbing microwave energy that strikes it but bad at reflecting / propogating microwave energy that strikes it.The inside of your cavity needs to be very highly polished, ding & scratch free rigid copper that reflects and propogates microwave energy with VERY little energy loss, instead of absorbing the energy and turning it into heat.>>That's not correct, actually in the aerospace industry the use of a mesh is quite common:" Why is my Satellite Dish full of holes?" http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=16208.0Wikipedia <<With lower frequencies, C-band for example (IEEE C 4 – 8 GHz), dish designers have a wider choice of materials. The large size of dish required for lower frequencies led to the dishes being constructed from metal mesh on a metal framework. At higher frequencies, mesh type designs are rarer though some designs have used a solid dish with perforations>>I will state my case again:Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.Very simple...rigidity and weather resistance.
Bringing Light to the DarkThere is virtually no detailed experimental data for any EMDrive test. The data which is available is not independently verified. We try to form understandings of what is going on inside the EMDrive based on no detailed and verifiable data. The process becomes more faith based than science based. Until we have independently verified experimental data, on the same device but verified by multiple independent sources, nothing useful will happen. That is why I constructed my experimental EMDrive program, to provide detailed independently verified data that can become the focus of theory discussions.During my experimental data runs, I will provide live streaming video, live data feeds and real time chat. I will publish the live session times and you all are welcome to stop by, observe and make suggestions on test protocols, data collection methods and what to test for. With-in the limits of my test system, I will try to honour every data/test request in as close to real time as possible.Once that process is completed, I will provide independent verifiers, at no cost, a complete EMDrive test system, minus the rotary test rig.This is the only way I know of to allow all of us to focus on what the independently verified experimental data will be trying to teach us.
Quote from: rfmwguy on 07/11/2015 02:55 pmQuote from: TheTraveller on 07/11/2015 02:22 pmQuote from: Rodal on 07/11/2015 02:16 pmSomebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:<<You need to ask yourself why copper mesh is not used in the microwave industry to build waveguides? Would be heaps lighter, lower weight and cost.Might be because mesh it is good at absorbing microwave energy that strikes it but bad at reflecting / propogating microwave energy that strikes it.The inside of your cavity needs to be very highly polished, ding & scratch free rigid copper that reflects and propogates microwave energy with VERY little energy loss, instead of absorbing the energy and turning it into heat.>>That's not correct, actually in the aerospace industry the use of a mesh is quite common:" Why is my Satellite Dish full of holes?" http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=16208.0Wikipedia <<With lower frequencies, C-band for example (IEEE C 4 – 8 GHz), dish designers have a wider choice of materials. The large size of dish required for lower frequencies led to the dishes being constructed from metal mesh on a metal framework. At higher frequencies, mesh type designs are rarer though some designs have used a solid dish with perforations>>I will state my case again:Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.Very simple...rigidity and weather resistance.Build as you will, just understand there is NO data that I can find on how copper mesh works as a waveguide. That should maybe tell you something?I'll build using solid and rigid copper than has a highly polished, scratch and ding free internal surface and is capable of being silver plated with a gold over flash.Time will tell what results the copper mesh builders get.
Quote from: TheTraveller on 07/11/2015 03:10 pm...Build as you will, just understand there is NO data that I can find on how copper mesh works as a waveguide. That should maybe tell you something?I'll build using solid and rigid copper than has a highly polished, scratch and ding free internal surface and is capable of being silver plated with a gold over flash.Time will tell what results the copper mesh builders get.Data here for example:http://ipnpr.jpl.nasa.gov/progress_report2/II/IIO.PDFincluding waveguide and free space techniques.
...Build as you will, just understand there is NO data that I can find on how copper mesh works as a waveguide. That should maybe tell you something?I'll build using solid and rigid copper than has a highly polished, scratch and ding free internal surface and is capable of being silver plated with a gold over flash.Time will tell what results the copper mesh builders get.
Quote from: TheTraveller on 07/11/2015 02:22 pmQuote from: Rodal on 07/11/2015 02:16 pmSomebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:I will state my case again:Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.Quote from: TheTraveller on 07/11/2015 02:22 pmQuote from: Rodal on 07/11/2015 02:16 pmSomebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:I will state my case again:Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.*****Heat in a heavy commercial waveguide from continuous running, changing and longitudinal dimensions thereby affecting wave transmission. It would be nice if we could afford a slab of copper (like what was used in the design of the SCSC for accelerating the proton beams) to absorb the excess heat, but my gofundme isn't going to allow that. A closed cavity is like a copper pot capped off on your stove heating water for tea. You cannot control the retention of the heat and eventually at 1000 watts input it might reach a thermal equilibrium of about 170F or 76.6C but not without going through growth pains. If you throw in some water into the cavity with a hole, it might whistle like a teapot before too long. The perforated copper at least allows some heat to escape and prevents the hot air balloon theory. The side walls are the killer in thermal expansion, just like a high power wave guide where the tune length is the critical issue.My endplates are allowed to laterally expand and I'm limiting the long axis expansion with a perforated copper design for heat.
Quote from: SeeShells on 07/11/2015 03:04 pmQuote from: TheTraveller on 07/11/2015 02:22 pmQuote from: Rodal on 07/11/2015 02:16 pmSomebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:I will state my case again:Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.Quote from: TheTraveller on 07/11/2015 02:22 pmQuote from: Rodal on 07/11/2015 02:16 pmSomebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:I will state my case again:Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.*****Heat in a heavy commercial waveguide from continuous running, changing and longitudinal dimensions thereby affecting wave transmission. It would be nice if we could afford a slab of copper (like what was used in the design of the SCSC for accelerating the proton beams) to absorb the excess heat, but my gofundme isn't going to allow that. A closed cavity is like a copper pot capped off on your stove heating water for tea. You cannot control the retention of the heat and eventually at 1000 watts input it might reach a thermal equilibrium of about 170F or 76.6C but not without going through growth pains. If you throw in some water into the cavity with a hole, it might whistle like a teapot before too long. The perforated copper at least allows some heat to escape and prevents the hot air balloon theory. The side walls are the killer in thermal expansion, just like a high power wave guide where the tune length is the critical issue.My endplates are allowed to laterally expand and I'm limiting the long axis expansion with a perforated copper design for heat.I suggest you might be lucky to get 100W inside the cavity as the magnetron output is all over the board.My build is air tight, with O ring seals at the end. There is an air valve in the side wall that will allow the cavity to be pumped down to a partial vacuum and back filled with N. It will still run at a partial vacuum but filled with N.I believe around 10Ws of power will be more than enough to get good acceleration on my rotary test rig. While I will do tests up to 100W, they will not be the normal test runs, which will be run at around 10Ws.I have no intention of frying my EMDrive, that has taken 2 weeks full time work to manufacture, by subjecting it to high heat stress.
Quote from: TheTraveller on 07/11/2015 03:10 pm...Build as you will, just understand there is NO data that I can find on how copper mesh works as a waveguide. That should maybe tell you something?I'll build using solid and rigid copper than has a highly polished, scratch and ding free internal surface and is capable of being silver plated with a gold over flash.Time will tell what results the copper mesh builders get.Data here for example, in the Jet Propulsion Laboratory website:http://ipnpr.jpl.nasa.gov/progress_report2/II/IIO.PDFincluding waveguide and free space techniques. Mostly aerospace applications are interested in this. You are not going to find people interested in making small-cross-section waveguides out of perforated plates, for commercial applications since durability much trumps any weight savings for commercial applications.
I suggest you might be lucky to get 100W inside the cavity as the magnetron output is all over the board....
Quote from: TheTraveller on 07/11/2015 03:18 pmQuote from: SeeShells on 07/11/2015 03:04 pmQuote from: TheTraveller on 07/11/2015 02:22 pmQuote from: Rodal on 07/11/2015 02:16 pmSomebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:I will state my case again:Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.Quote from: TheTraveller on 07/11/2015 02:22 pmQuote from: Rodal on 07/11/2015 02:16 pmSomebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:I will state my case again:Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.*****Heat in a heavy commercial waveguide from continuous running, changing and longitudinal dimensions thereby affecting wave transmission. It would be nice if we could afford a slab of copper (like what was used in the design of the SCSC for accelerating the proton beams) to absorb the excess heat, but my gofundme isn't going to allow that. A closed cavity is like a copper pot capped off on your stove heating water for tea. You cannot control the retention of the heat and eventually at 1000 watts input it might reach a thermal equilibrium of about 170F or 76.6C but not without going through growth pains. If you throw in some water into the cavity with a hole, it might whistle like a teapot before too long. The perforated copper at least allows some heat to escape and prevents the hot air balloon theory. The side walls are the killer in thermal expansion, just like a high power wave guide where the tune length is the critical issue.My endplates are allowed to laterally expand and I'm limiting the long axis expansion with a perforated copper design for heat.I suggest you might be lucky to get 100W inside the cavity as the magnetron output is all over the board.My build is air tight, with O ring seals at the end. There is an air valve in the side wall that will allow the cavity to be pumped down to a partial vacuum and back filled with N. It will still run at a partial vacuum but filled with N.I believe around 10Ws of power will be more than enough to get good acceleration on my rotary test rig. While I will do tests up to 100W, they will not be the normal test runs, which will be run at around 10Ws.I have no intention of frying my EMDrive, that has taken 2 weeks full time work to manufacture, by subjecting it to high heat stress.With great power comes great load.Are you putting your carousel on a anti-vibration stand?Shell