Author Topic: Commercial Crew - Discussion Thread 1  (Read 640857 times)

Offline joek

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #520 on: 11/01/2014 02:43 am »
When you suggest this "would be part of the record" had it occurred, do you mean it would currently be public knowledge?
Not public knowledge, or likely to be made public.  It is part of the record NASA is required to maintain to support their actions (e.g., in cases such as this where the decision is subject to scrutiny by the GAO).  None of that record, other than the final source selection statement, is typically made public.

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #521 on: 11/02/2014 04:11 am »
With all of the talk about the difference between the SEB and the SSA, all I can do is point out an historical reference.

When proposals were received for the Apollo CSM, the SEB of the time recommended the Martin Company.  They were told by NASA management (the equivalent of the SSA at that time) to rescore their evaluation giving a greater multiplier to anyone who had previously built experimental aircraft -- this was apparently done to increase North American Aviation's score.  The Martin Company *still* got the highest score and was recommended by the SEB.

The SSA then proceeded to override the SSB's scoring of the proposals and awarded the contract to North American.

This caused a fair little scandal after the Apollo 1 fire, and some of the people who were involved in overriding the SEB's recommendation went through a good, long time sitting on pretty hot seats.  But no one was fired for it.

So, yes, the SSA can and has overridden the recommendations of the SEB on a given contract award.  The SSA has the power and the authority to do so, if they think they're right.  But they also have to take the heat if they're wrong, or if the decision comes under scrutiny down the road due to "unforeseen circumstances"...

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Offline joek

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #522 on: 11/02/2014 08:10 pm »
With all of the talk about the difference between the SEB and the SSA, all I can do is point out an historical reference.

When proposals were received for the Apollo CSM, the SEB of the time recommended the Martin Company.  They were told by NASA management (the equivalent of the SSA at that time) to rescore their evaluation giving a greater multiplier to anyone who had previously built experimental aircraft -- this was apparently done to increase North American Aviation's score.  The Martin Company *still* got the highest score and was recommended by the SEB.

...

Much has changed between then and now.  The process, roles and responsibilities are much more structured.  The SSA cannot force the SEB to revise their results unless the SSA can show that the SEB did not perform their evaluation per the rules.  For the SSA to retroactively change the rules would be an obvious and egregious violation of the evaluation and selection process.  I seriously doubt Gerst would be dumb enough to think he could get away with that today.

If the SSA has a substantive disagreement with the SEB as to the importance of discriminators or the manner in which the SEB performed its evaluation, that would be documented and part of the record which the GAO will examine as part of the challenge.  In any case, the selection statement clearly points out where the SSA disagreed with the SEB on the importance of various discriminators.

Offline Roy_H

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #523 on: 11/07/2014 04:01 am »
I like to track the CCiCap milestones via NASA's Commercial Spaceflight - 60 Day Reports
http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/commercial/document_library.html#.VFwQAskhPph
but it is now 120 days. Does anyone know why the delay and when the next report will come out?
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Offline yg1968

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Offline fatjohn1408

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #525 on: 11/20/2014 10:03 am »
I was wondering if there are any actual contracts already online? A search on fbo.gov didn't help.

If not could someone at least give me a link to the exact figures of the awards all articles round off to the nearest 100 million.

Thanks a lot!

Offline Garrett

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #526 on: 12/02/2014 03:21 pm »
seeing as Boeing have just completed the first milestone of their CCtCAP contract*, I'm re-asking fatjohn1408's question in the post above: have any contracts been published yet?

Also, has a list of milestones even been published yet?

* see here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32438.msg1295208#msg1295208
and here: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/kennedy/news/releases/2014/release-20141201.html

edit: added links above
« Last Edit: 12/02/2014 03:23 pm by Garrett »
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Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #527 on: 12/02/2014 04:11 pm »
I don't think that the CCtCap contracts will be released until the SNC protest is over.

Offline Garrett

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #528 on: 12/03/2014 11:19 am »
I don't think that the CCtCap contracts will be released until the SNC protest is over.
and yet they're allowed release info when CCtCap milestones are completed. Bizarre.
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Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #529 on: 12/10/2014 01:22 am »
Commercial crew will be getting $805M for FY 2015 and the Shelby language requiring certified cost and pricing for commercial crew and cargo is now gone. See this thread for more information:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34827.msg1300580#msg1300580
« Last Edit: 12/10/2014 01:30 am by yg1968 »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #530 on: 12/10/2014 04:09 am »
How does the $805M compared to what was expected, what was requested, what is needed, and what was previously approved?
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Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #531 on: 12/10/2014 04:14 am »
The President requested $848M in his FY 2015 budget and commercial crew got $696M last year (in FY 2014). I suspect that it is enough but I don't know for sure.
« Last Edit: 12/10/2014 04:24 am by yg1968 »

Offline newpylong

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #532 on: 12/10/2014 03:12 pm »
Great news. That number should be enough to sustain the path for 2017 for both providers.
« Last Edit: 12/10/2014 03:13 pm by newpylong »

Offline erioladastra

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #533 on: 12/17/2014 01:05 am »
Great news. That number should be enough to sustain the path for 2017 for both providers.

I don't think that will be enough for two full providers...

Offline Roy_H

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #534 on: 12/19/2014 03:51 am »
Great news. That number should be enough to sustain the path for 2017 for both providers.

I don't think that will be enough for two full providers...
What makes you that? The $805M is just for this year. Boeing got awarded $4.2B and SpaceX 2.6B, but these figures include two flights each delivering astronauts to the ISS. So to figure out what portion is for development is a little murky. Assume about $150M/flight for SpaceX and $200M/flight for Boeing so that leaves $6.1B over 3 years or about $2B/year. So yeah, this year's budget is less than half that, but these projects tend to get more expensive as they become closer to reality. It seems pretty clear to me, now that the contracts have been awarded, that NASA is not going to down-select to one provider. I expect next year's budget to be $2B+.
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Offline enkarha

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #535 on: 12/19/2014 10:05 am »
The notional numbers in the President's budget requests top out at 872 million in 2016. This year's budget discussions will be interesting.
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Offline wjbarnett

Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #536 on: 12/19/2014 06:40 pm »

SpaceX Completes First Commercial Crew Transportation Milestone
December 19, 2014

SpaceX Crew Dragon concept
An artist concept of SpaceX Crew Dragon approaching the Interantional Space Station.

NASA has approved the completion of SpaceX’s first milestone in the company’s path toward launching crews to the International Space Station (ISS) from U.S. soil under a Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap) contract with the agency.

During the Certification Baseline Review, SpaceX described its current design baseline including how the company plans to manufacture its Crew Dragon spacecraft and Falcon 9 v.1.1 rocket, then launch, fly, land and recover the crew. The company also outlined how it will achieve NASA certification of its system to enable transport of crews to and from the space station.

“This milestone sets the pace for the rigorous work ahead as SpaceX meets the certification requirements outlined in our contract,” said Kathy Lueders, manager of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program. “It is very exciting to see SpaceX's proposed path to certification, including a flight test phase and completion of the system development.”

On Sept. 16, the agency unveiled its selection of SpaceX and Boeing to transport U.S. crews to and from the space station using their Crew Dragon and CST-100 spacecraft, respectively. These contracts will end the nation’s sole reliance on Russia and allow the station’s current crew of six to increase, enabling more research aboard the unique microgravity laboratory.

Under the CCtCap contracts, the companies will complete NASA certification of their human space transportation systems, including a crewed flight test with at least one NASA astronaut aboard, to verify the fully integrated rocket and spacecraft system can launch from the United States, maneuver in orbit, and dock to the space station, and validate its systems perform as expected.

Throughout the next few years, SpaceX will test its systems, materials and concept of operations to the limits to prove they are safe to transport astronauts to the station. Once certified, the Crew Dragon spacecraft and Falcon 9 v1.1 rocket will be processed and integrated inside a new hangar before being rolled out for launch. This will all take place at the historic Launch Complex 39A at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida.

The Crew Dragon is expected to be able to dock to the station for up to 210 days and serve as a 24-hour safe haven during an emergency in space.

“SpaceX designed the Dragon spacecraft with the ultimate goal of transporting people to space,” said Gwynne Shotwell, SpaceX President and Chief Operating Officer.  “Successful completion of the Certification Baseline Review represents a critical step in that effort—we applaud our team’s hard work to date and look forward to helping NASA return the transport of U.S. astronauts to American soil.”

By expanding the station crew size and enabling private companies to handle launches to low-Earth orbit -- a region NASA has been visiting since 1962 -- the nation's space agency can focus on getting the most research and experience out of America's investment in ISS. NASA also can expand its focus to develop the Space Launch System and Orion capsule for missions in the proving ground of deep space beyond the moon to advance the skills and techniques that will enable humans to explore Mars.
Jack

Online woods170

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #537 on: 12/19/2014 07:14 pm »
Link: http://www.nasa.gov/content/spacex-completes-first-commercial-crew-transportation-milestone/

Nice development too: Boeing and SpaceX both completing their Certification Baseline Review for CCtCap within 3 weeks from each other.



SpaceX Completes First Commercial Crew Transportation Milestone
December 19, 2014

SpaceX Crew Dragon concept
An artist concept of SpaceX Crew Dragon approaching the Interantional Space Station.

NASA has approved the completion of SpaceX’s first milestone in the company’s path toward launching crews to the International Space Station (ISS) from U.S. soil under a Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap) contract with the agency.

During the Certification Baseline Review, SpaceX described its current design baseline including how the company plans to manufacture its Crew Dragon spacecraft and Falcon 9 v.1.1 rocket, then launch, fly, land and recover the crew. The company also outlined how it will achieve NASA certification of its system to enable transport of crews to and from the space station.

“This milestone sets the pace for the rigorous work ahead as SpaceX meets the certification requirements outlined in our contract,” said Kathy Lueders, manager of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program. “It is very exciting to see SpaceX's proposed path to certification, including a flight test phase and completion of the system development.”

On Sept. 16, the agency unveiled its selection of SpaceX and Boeing to transport U.S. crews to and from the space station using their Crew Dragon and CST-100 spacecraft, respectively. These contracts will end the nation’s sole reliance on Russia and allow the station’s current crew of six to increase, enabling more research aboard the unique microgravity laboratory.

Under the CCtCap contracts, the companies will complete NASA certification of their human space transportation systems, including a crewed flight test with at least one NASA astronaut aboard, to verify the fully integrated rocket and spacecraft system can launch from the United States, maneuver in orbit, and dock to the space station, and validate its systems perform as expected.

Throughout the next few years, SpaceX will test its systems, materials and concept of operations to the limits to prove they are safe to transport astronauts to the station. Once certified, the Crew Dragon spacecraft and Falcon 9 v1.1 rocket will be processed and integrated inside a new hangar before being rolled out for launch. This will all take place at the historic Launch Complex 39A at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida.

The Crew Dragon is expected to be able to dock to the station for up to 210 days and serve as a 24-hour safe haven during an emergency in space.

“SpaceX designed the Dragon spacecraft with the ultimate goal of transporting people to space,” said Gwynne Shotwell, SpaceX President and Chief Operating Officer.  “Successful completion of the Certification Baseline Review represents a critical step in that effort—we applaud our team’s hard work to date and look forward to helping NASA return the transport of U.S. astronauts to American soil.”

By expanding the station crew size and enabling private companies to handle launches to low-Earth orbit -- a region NASA has been visiting since 1962 -- the nation's space agency can focus on getting the most research and experience out of America's investment in ISS. NASA also can expand its focus to develop the Space Launch System and Orion capsule for missions in the proving ground of deep space beyond the moon to advance the skills and techniques that will enable humans to explore Mars.

« Last Edit: 12/19/2014 07:15 pm by woods170 »

Offline baldusi

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #538 on: 12/20/2014 10:58 am »
Oh! I love it. Some nice real competition of upmanship is exactly what I like to see.

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial Crew (CCtCAP) - Discussion Thread
« Reply #539 on: 12/22/2014 06:44 pm »
Some CCiCap and CCtCap news:
http://www.nasa.gov/content/nasa-commercial-crew-partners-complete-23-milestones-in-2014-look-ahead-to-2015

Quote
SpaceX performed two milestones, its Dragon Primary Structure Qualification and Delta Crew Vehicle Critical Design Review, in November as part of its CCiCap agreement

Quote
In 2015, the company [SNC] will perform the second free-flight of its Dream Chaser test article at NASA’s Armstrong Flight Research Center.

Quote
Blue Origin continued the development of its Space Vehicle spacecraft designed to carry people into low-Earth orbit. The company also continued work on its subscale propellant tank assembly through an unfunded Commercial Crew Development Round 2 (CCDev2) agreement with NASA, which was recently extended until April 2016.
« Last Edit: 12/22/2014 06:57 pm by yg1968 »

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