I do get that the spray foam insulation is needed for SLS in it's current guise, it just this (excellent) article makes it feel like it takes a lot of time and effort (and thus money) due to design decisions and requirements when compared to other rockets. Falcon was used as a comparison earlier in the thread, and as stated that has insulation too, but LH2 (rather than RP-1) requires way more insulation, and the need to sit fully fueled for 4 hours (rather than "easy" and quick RP-1 tanking and detanking) as a requirement that also leads to even more insulation. Add them together and the $$$$ looks to skyrocket in comparison. Is the cost breakdown of all the insulation for each SLS rocket known?
On Ariane V, they use 2 cm thick insulating tiles made from expanded polyurethane.http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/87848/view
Quote from: Steven Pietrobon on 12/14/2017 04:27 amOn Ariane V, they use 2 cm thick insulating tiles made from expanded polyurethane.http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/87848/viewThank you for that, I had long searched for a good explanation or picture of what Ariane 5 used for TPS (especially how it compared to the Shuttle's ET, when particle release was a concern for STS - I still wonder how it compares).
Quote from: eeergo on 12/14/2017 11:18 amQuote from: Steven Pietrobon on 12/14/2017 04:27 amOn Ariane V, they use 2 cm thick insulating tiles made from expanded polyurethane.http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/87848/viewThank you for that, I had long searched for a good explanation or picture of what Ariane 5 used for TPS (especially how it compared to the Shuttle's ET, when particle release was a concern for STS - I still wonder how it compares). Ariane V doesn't have any debris concerns with the insulation as it doesn't have an orbiter hanging off it that has a fragile TPS. So that was something unique to the shuttle.
Quote from: DaveS on 12/14/2017 11:30 amQuote from: eeergo on 12/14/2017 11:18 amQuote from: Steven Pietrobon on 12/14/2017 04:27 amOn Ariane V, they use 2 cm thick insulating tiles made from expanded polyurethane.http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/87848/viewThank you for that, I had long searched for a good explanation or picture of what Ariane 5 used for TPS (especially how it compared to the Shuttle's ET, when particle release was a concern for STS - I still wonder how it compares). Ariane V doesn't have any debris concerns with the insulation as it doesn't have an orbiter hanging off it that has a fragile TPS. So that was something unique to the shuttle.Obviously But there must exist some level of knowledge, if perhaps not as detailed as STS with its cameras and cryopumping studies. Large TPS shedding might be damaging to other LV parts as well (see STS-112)
Quote from: eeergo on 12/14/2017 12:33 pmQuote from: DaveS on 12/14/2017 11:30 amQuote from: eeergo on 12/14/2017 11:18 amQuote from: Steven Pietrobon on 12/14/2017 04:27 amOn Ariane V, they use 2 cm thick insulating tiles made from expanded polyurethane.http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/87848/viewThank you for that, I had long searched for a good explanation or picture of what Ariane 5 used for TPS (especially how it compared to the Shuttle's ET, when particle release was a concern for STS - I still wonder how it compares). Ariane V doesn't have any debris concerns with the insulation as it doesn't have an orbiter hanging off it that has a fragile TPS. So that was something unique to the shuttle.Obviously But there must exist some level of knowledge, if perhaps not as detailed as STS with its cameras and cryopumping studies. Large TPS shedding might be damaging to other LV parts as well (see STS-112)Ariane has not experienced any significant loss of insulation tiles since they started using them on the H8 upper stage on Ariane 1.
Quote from: woods170 on 12/14/2017 08:11 pmQuote from: eeergo on 12/14/2017 12:33 pmQuote from: DaveS on 12/14/2017 11:30 amQuote from: eeergo on 12/14/2017 11:18 amQuote from: Steven Pietrobon on 12/14/2017 04:27 amOn Ariane V, they use 2 cm thick insulating tiles made from expanded polyurethane.http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/87848/viewThank you for that, I had long searched for a good explanation or picture of what Ariane 5 used for TPS (especially how it compared to the Shuttle's ET, when particle release was a concern for STS - I still wonder how it compares). Ariane V doesn't have any debris concerns with the insulation as it doesn't have an orbiter hanging off it that has a fragile TPS. So that was something unique to the shuttle.Obviously But there must exist some level of knowledge, if perhaps not as detailed as STS with its cameras and cryopumping studies. Large TPS shedding might be damaging to other LV parts as well (see STS-112)Ariane has not experienced any significant loss of insulation tiles since they started using them on the H8 upper stage on Ariane 1.This begs the question: was the panel solution studied for STS?
Wayne,Thanks for your perspective. It is very illuminating for me. However, I note the Saturn SIVB had internal insulation and proved to be a very reliable booster, as discussed in https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4206/ch6.htm. There was no mention of engine ingestion in the cited work.The S-II had external insulation, at first in premolded pieces (which had a lot of problems), and later it was sprayed on.I wonder if the external insulation was selected because the shuttle tank was not constructed by McDonnel-Douglas, but by Martin (if I recall correctly) and then by North American Rockwell (I think) and still later Boeing?Mike
...Intertank insulation was required for ascent heating primarily although it did help with the prelaunch time while tanked on the launch pad. It not only prevented heat transfer into the propellant tanks but preserved the material strength of the aluminum skin of the intertank during the aeroheating of ascent....
Very very basic question, common sense wise, why get away from the Saturn V design for a rocket going to the moon ?, the blueprints for man's greatest machine surely still exist. The shuttle design booster seems to troublesome, from foam to O rings etc. I suppose I will answer my own question, tooling perhaps ?