Author Topic: Artificially Grown Meat  (Read 10876 times)

Offline Cinder

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Re: Artificially Grown Meat
« Reply #20 on: 05/19/2015 03:08 pm »
I suggest this thread at least tries to stick to the OP in-vitro method only and not explode into yet another should-we-eat-banana-flies-or-slugs-instead generic food thread. Mars section is littered with those.

Again, vegan tears aside what else do you need to feed into these meat growing vats? Plants need relatively simple inorganic substances, wondering what kind of processes/machinery is needed to either convert plants for the cell cultures or are they fed artificially converting inorganics to meat cell edible form?

I am assuming autotroph meat cells have not yet been invented  ::)
I only can bite Cinder-sized chunks of NSF at a time, and never saw those yet.  My bad.

I do think that gourmet meat esthetics (visual, taste, etc) can wait till work is finished for initial settlement foundations.  C.F. what SpaceX employees put up with back then on Kwaj.
« Last Edit: 05/19/2015 03:09 pm by Cinder »
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Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Artificially Grown Meat
« Reply #21 on: 05/26/2015 11:24 am »
Mars is the last place that will get vat meat -- Mars will still be growing meat from animals after that has become obsolete on Earth.

It seems intuitive that Mars will tend to have higher-tech production than Earth.  That intuition is wrong.  Mars production will tend to be lower tech as long as the size of the colony on Mars is much smaller than Earth's.

Think of it in terms of the net amount of labor that needs to go into producing various goods.  If something is done with individual human labor, the labor content will be about the same on Earth as on Mars.  But anything done in a factory will have a much higher labor content on Mars than Earth, because either the scale of the factory on Mars will be much, much lower or the good will have to be imported from Earth because the factory doesn't even exist on Mars.

Now it's true that resources available on Earth but more scarce on Mars might skew that in some cases.  But I don't think that's the case with at least some animals.  It may be impractical to raise a whale on Mars, but not a chicken.  A chicken is a nice small factory for turning plant matter into meat.  It doesn't require spare parts and trained technicians to repair it.  It doesn't take a large factory to create another chicken.  It doesn't require chemical inputs and cleaning agents that come from large industrial facilities.

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Artificially Grown Meat
« Reply #22 on: 05/27/2015 04:19 pm »
On earth meat originally serves two purposes: provide nutrients unavailable or little available from plant sources and turn environmental resources into food that are not directly digestible by people (e.g. grass). For lab grown meat we need as mentioned above a very rich nutrient broth, and to create this broth we need a whole industrial process. In the end adapting petri grown meat boils down to this: is it easier to take care of animals, providing nutrition, veterinary services, removing waste in exchange for meat, eggs and milk (depending on the animals chosen) or is it easier to build a bio-fabricator to make the broth where we grow petri dish meat? What is the opportunity cost of not growing animals? What will we do with the hay or the food leftovers? I am under the impression that growing animals, probably something small and able to consume multiple feed types (pigs? Rabbits? Chickens?) is easier and more robust than growing lab meat.

Offline MattMason

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Re: Artificially Grown Meat
« Reply #23 on: 05/27/2015 06:30 pm »
Mars is the last place that will get vat meat -- Mars will still be growing meat from animals after that has become obsolete on Earth.

It seems intuitive that Mars will tend to have higher-tech production than Earth.  That intuition is wrong.  Mars production will tend to be lower tech as long as the size of the colony on Mars is much smaller than Earth's.

Think of it in terms of the net amount of labor that needs to go into producing various goods.  If something is done with individual human labor, the labor content will be about the same on Earth as on Mars.  But anything done in a factory will have a much higher labor content on Mars than Earth, because either the scale of the factory on Mars will be much, much lower or the good will have to be imported from Earth because the factory doesn't even exist on Mars.

Now it's true that resources available on Earth but more scarce on Mars might skew that in some cases.  But I don't think that's the case with at least some animals.  It may be impractical to raise a whale on Mars, but not a chicken.  A chicken is a nice small factory for turning plant matter into meat.  It doesn't require spare parts and trained technicians to repair it.  It doesn't take a large factory to create another chicken.  It doesn't require chemical inputs and cleaning agents that come from large industrial facilities.

Excellent example. And chickens also readily produce a high-protein foodstuff: eggs.

That sounds like a strong and swift return-on-investment, especially if there were technology that could freeze fertilized chicken eggs for hatching once on the surface. Feed as well could be grown in transit or, given the volume and weight, simply carried.

Images of Popeye's and KFC stores across Utopia Plantitia and free-range chicken. Where do I sign? And what barbeque sauce company will sponsor this trip?
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Offline spacenut

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Re: Artificially Grown Meat
« Reply #24 on: 05/27/2015 06:40 pm »
Animal waste is fertilizer for plants.  Sometimes food for fish like carp and catfish.  Smaller animals can be grown in small cages and fed the stems, in-eatable leaves, and plant waste from vegetable preparation.  Corn stalks and wheat straw can be eaten by larger animals, when and if they are taken to Mars.  Algae can be grown and dried into pellets to feed animals.  Tilipia, catfish, chickens, and rabbits will probably be the first animals taken for food production. 

Oxygen for humans and animals will probably have to be made from CO2 or from Martian soil in processing materials from soil until massive large scale agriculture and plants can be grown.  Most of earths oxygen is produced from ocean algae, not from plants.  Algae can be grown to feed tilapia and for animal pellets and will produce some oxygen, how much don't know. 

Online guckyfan

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Re: Artificially Grown Meat
« Reply #25 on: 05/27/2015 06:44 pm »
Oxygen for humans and animals will probably have to be made from CO2 or from Martian soil in processing materials from soil until massive large scale agriculture and plants can be grown.  Most of earths oxygen is produced from ocean algae, not from plants.  Algae can be grown to feed tilapia and for animal pellets and will produce some oxygen, how much don't know.

If you grow enough food for human consumption the plants will provide enough oxygen. Ideally a closed circuit, but in reality probably some waste from plants and some excess oxygen.

Offline spacenut

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Re: Artificially Grown Meat
« Reply #26 on: 05/27/2015 06:54 pm »
That's why I mentioned the oceans and algae since that is where most of earth's oxygen comes from.  Mars doesn't have the large oceans for that to happen, thus a side effect of producing lox for rocket fuel, is to funnel some off for breathing.  I don't think enough plants, even with fruit trees, fruit producing bushes, vegetables, and even algae production can produce enough breathable oxygen for humans and meat producing animals and birds on Mars, thus having to supplement it for a long time. 

Offline JasonAW3

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Re: Artificially Grown Meat
« Reply #27 on: 05/27/2015 07:10 pm »
Mars is the last place that will get vat meat -- Mars will still be growing meat from animals after that has become obsolete on Earth.

It seems intuitive that Mars will tend to have higher-tech production than Earth.  That intuition is wrong.  Mars production will tend to be lower tech as long as the size of the colony on Mars is much smaller than Earth's.

Think of it in terms of the net amount of labor that needs to go into producing various goods.  If something is done with individual human labor, the labor content will be about the same on Earth as on Mars.  But anything done in a factory will have a much higher labor content on Mars than Earth, because either the scale of the factory on Mars will be much, much lower or the good will have to be imported from Earth because the factory doesn't even exist on Mars.

Now it's true that resources available on Earth but more scarce on Mars might skew that in some cases.  But I don't think that's the case with at least some animals.  It may be impractical to raise a whale on Mars, but not a chicken.  A chicken is a nice small factory for turning plant matter into meat.  It doesn't require spare parts and trained technicians to repair it.  It doesn't take a large factory to create another chicken.  It doesn't require chemical inputs and cleaning agents that come from large industrial facilities.

Hadn't really considered the full implications of a vat meat system, but I think you may have a point.  I would not be supprised to see a high meat pigmy cattle developed especially for such colonial situations.  However, there will still need to be somewhat open areas for the "cattle" to roam, and using robots similar to Roombas to clean up messes in the grass, such an area also would be useful for colonists psychological conditions.

     Truth be told, it would likely be a VERY good idea to create a large enclosed green space with a variety of animals to remind early colonists of home and avoid "Cabin Fever" issues.  Later colonists will likely build cities and green spaces in the lava tubes and caves of Mars.  (I suspect that they may look much like the semi-tubular landscapes depicted for torus type space colonies, up through and including a central tubular elevator structure to the surface for surface operations.
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Offline vulture4

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Re: Artificially Grown Meat
« Reply #28 on: 05/27/2015 08:09 pm »
Producing animal tissue in cell culture is incredibly difficult, if you don't believe me try it. Where would all the critical components of the sterile growth media come from in a remote outpost? The inclusion of conventional animals in a closed ecological life support system was a major area of research at Kennedy Space Center in the 1990s. The most efficient meat producer was found to be tilapia, which can grow at a phenomenal rate. Unfortunately fish are naturally carnivours and raising tilapia without some animal protein input is not easy, so at least acquatic invertebrates are needed as well to convert plant to animal protein. Chickens are also more efficient than cattle. But the most practical solution, particularly with GM crops with enhanced nutrient content, is to go vegitarian.

Offline spacenut

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Re: Artificially Grown Meat
« Reply #29 on: 05/27/2015 08:23 pm »
They already have small breeds of cattle that are around 3' or 1m at the shoulder.  They even have small milk cows.  Goats might be more efficient for milk production as they will eat almost any vegetation. 

Oh, lava tubes might not be necessary as Mars regolith can be piled over living areas as well as water storage.  Only about 18" of water or 0.5m can stop a lot of radiation and water will be needed for the colony, and if stored in shallow overhead tanks, can provide gravity pressure for plumbing and serve as a radiation barrier.  A lot of water will be needed for potable water, showering, watering plants and animals, and for fish and taking waste for fertilizer processing.  Natural light will be needed sometimes and whether directly with windows, or through prisms indirectly will help avoid "cabin fever".

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Artificially Grown Meat
« Reply #30 on: 05/27/2015 08:38 pm »
First of all of we source our food on Mars, photosynthesis in the Martian habitat will far exceed the breathing needs of people. The habitat will have an oxygen surplus, not a deficit for the simple reason that it is impossible to consume 100% of the biomass, directly or indirectly. Putting animals will allow more of the biomass to be consumed, especially the kind that is not palatable to humans, but getting calories from meat requires 3 or so times what comes from plant sources. It is best if we directly eat the seaweed rather than feed it to animals. Growing feed makes little sense in a Mars habitat, feeding the animals our waste on the other hand is welcome.

GM crops are not nutritionally superior, far from it. 98% of approved GM varieties are for plant protection purposes, e.g. bt corn or Roundup Ready corn. There is work in golden rice that will have vitamin A, but this is the exception, not the rule. One of the findings of the Mars simulation missions and the space station is palate fatigue, eating the same foods all the time in the long term makes it tasteless. It is better to have a variety of food crops grown rather than engineer one supercrop and eat it all day.

Now I remember from my undergrad days that growing stuff (e.g. fungi) in petri dishes required substrates such as PDA (potato dextrose agar). Stem cells were even harder. I would really like to see a breakdown of the substrate required to grow lab meat and where it comes from: in PDA's it would be potatoes, dextrose from sugarcane and agar which is a seaweed. Has anyone done this kind of breakdown, preferably per kg of meat?

Offline spacenut

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Re: Artificially Grown Meat
« Reply #31 on: 05/28/2015 12:41 am »
Algae is not seaweed, it is one celled micro-organisms that turn water green.  Oceans with algae produce almost all the earth's oxygen, not plants since the world is 75% water on the surface.  Water keeps the earth's temperature more constant.  That is why I suggested water in storage tanks above living habitats.  NASA also has suggested using water as a radiation shield in the outer walls of a deep space human craft.  Water above living areas can also help regulate the inside with outside temperature, especially on Mars.  Tilipia eat algae, and algae can be dried and used for food pellets, to feed animals.  Humans can use these pellets for vitamin supplements, but not for food.  Algae can also be squeezed for the oil and can be made into fuel on earth, however it costs about $4-5 to produce algae oil.  I just do not see enough food plants producing enough oxygen for humans, small animals, and fish in small enclosed environments without supplemental oxygen.  Not until very large areas can be contained for plant growth. 

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Artificially Grown Meat
« Reply #32 on: 05/28/2015 04:42 am »
My thinking is mass balance. To feed people you need food. If we go with the plant only path, carbon is required to create the food the people will eat. However you will also need carbon to produce the inedible parts of food (e.g. plant fiber) and the inedible parts of plants (leaves, stalk, roots). The inedible parts can be used to feed animals (e.g. fish) or mushrooms but in the end parts are simply indigestible and accumulate. This is a constant carbon sink. If we choose to grow feed and keep a CAFO, the same inefficiency simply is increased, there is an even bigger carbon sink, both in the flesh and in the eventual waste. On earth carbon eventually gets released geologically, this is why we do not have a no CO2 atmosphere yet. If we are talking on Mars, I would also refer you to the MIT study on MarsOne, while there are known issues in the study due to problems with CROPSIM, they stumbled into an issue known to anyone familiar with greenhouses: A greenhouse with mature plants consumes CO2 voraciously, to the point that the atmosphere becomes toxically high in O2 and plants shut down photosynthesis until CO2 can be supplied (usually by opening a window to renew the air). So long we source food from the habitat (rather than from earth) net photosynthesis will be higher than respiration. I am thinking of spirulina as the source of food on Mars which is definitely edible by people and can be eaten as a main meal, though in the developed world people prefer pills.

Getting back to the topic of this thread, what are the constituents of the nutrient solution for the lab grown meat, and what would be the carbon flows compared to keeping live animals? If we can keep oxygen from reaching toxic levels and we can relieve the stress on the ECLSS, we might want to go the lab grown meat route.

Offline spacenut

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Re: Artificially Grown Meat
« Reply #33 on: 05/28/2015 04:59 am »
People need variety.  Spirulina is algae that has been processed.  However, it can be fed in pill form as pellets for chickens, rabbits, or even tilapia fish.  This in turn creates at least three varieties of meat to eat, and cooked say 5 different ways each, gives you 15 different dishes.  Chickens also produce eggs.  Unless spirulina can be made like meat texture and flavored, it will not be eaten directly by humans.  Algae is one of the biggest carbon sinks, yes, but it takes oceans of algae to put off enough oxygen in earths atmosphere.  Not sure if plants alone can do this well enough, but with massive algae production, maybe. 

There are no true vegetarians, they must consume eggs or fish or take supplements along with rice, soybean products, and nuts to get enough protein. 

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Artificially Grown Meat
« Reply #34 on: 05/28/2015 07:45 am »
There are no true vegetarians, they must consume eggs or fish or take supplements along with rice, soybean products, and nuts to get enough protein.

Actually, there are quite a few vegans around where I live, and they do in fact consume no animal products.  They are quite careful about it.  There are even a couple of pure vegan restaurants I know that have surprisingly good food (and this is coming from someone who thinks burgers are one of the best foods around).

Vegans have to be careful to eat the right things to get sufficient nutrients, but there's no doubt it can be done by adults long term.

Offline spacenut

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Re: Artificially Grown Meat
« Reply #35 on: 05/28/2015 02:16 pm »
Most people will not choose to be vegetarian.  I for one can't.  I am allergic to wheat, soy, peanuts, milk, and tomatoes.  All of which I ate in my younger days.  I am not allergic to any meats except crab and I don't like crab.  So, no soy protein, no peanut products, and no milk products, and very little wheat.  I can tolerate small amounts of wheat, but it swells my stomach.  I have to substitute oats, corn, and rice.  Also, diets such as the Neolithic, Adkins, and South Beach diets have a lot of protein (meat) and little carby vegetables and people can live healthy. 

India, being Hindu, is where most vegetarians live.  However, they do eat unfertilized eggs, and fish.  Most colonists going to Mars are going to be westerners who are meat eaters and Asians (China-Japan) who are also meat eaters.  There might be some Indians since they also have a space program.  However, meat is going to be a necessity one way or another.  The most simple is tilapia, algae eating, and fast growth.  Like I said somewhere else a tank of about 4'x6'x8' can provide enough tilapia for one meal a week for a family of 4 in a year.  Their waste is pumped out of the bottom of the tank to fertilize plants by hydrophonics.  Chicken waste can feed catfish and also fertilize plants.  Layers only require a 1 cubic ft of space to live (in American chicken farms), and lay two eggs a day, once in the morning, and once at midnight when lights are turned on for a couple of hours to fool them.  Once layers stop producing two eggs a day, they are sent to market for meat. 

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Artificially Grown Meat
« Reply #36 on: 05/28/2015 06:50 pm »
As far as I remember from animal husbandry class an egg requires 20 hours to go down the duct, from the moment the chicken creates the egg yellow until the moment the entire egg is birthed. Practicing Orthodox Christians which means at least all of the monks go vegan, no meat, milk, eggs, fish and if a special occasion (such as decapitation of John the Baptist on August 29 or lent within lent such as Wednesdays and Fridays during the Great Lent) no oil and wine for most of the year. There are though several ecclesiastic rules that they must eat meat once a year (usually Easter) to prove that they are Orthodox Christians and not Manicheans. If you look in ancient Greece or for that matter, any part of Greek history before the 1950's, people could only afford to eat meat on special occasions, such as religious festivals (with the meat often paid by the community) or weddings. Full time vegan diet is possible, though it requires serious effort in the planning stage to create something sufficiently nutritious. I do see the first colonists on Mars subsisting on a monastic type diet. It will take serious effort to house goats or sheep, let alone cows, so there will not be much dairy available. Chickens are small, I do see chicken cages more likely but producing the feed requires far more land that just producing food for people. The idea of lab meat sounds at first look wonderful, but you are trading one type of complexity (what to do with manure, bedding, skin, bones etc) with another (creating broth, maintaining healthy lab cells etc)

Offline JasonAW3

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Re: Artificially Grown Meat
« Reply #37 on: 05/28/2015 07:06 pm »
They already have small breeds of cattle that are around 3' or 1m at the shoulder.  They even have small milk cows.  Goats might be more efficient for milk production as they will eat almost any vegetation. 

Oh, lava tubes might not be necessary as Mars regolith can be piled over living areas as well as water storage.  Only about 18" of water or 0.5m can stop a lot of radiation and water will be needed for the colony, and if stored in shallow overhead tanks, can provide gravity pressure for plumbing and serve as a radiation barrier.  A lot of water will be needed for potable water, showering, watering plants and animals, and for fish and taking waste for fertilizer processing.  Natural light will be needed sometimes and whether directly with windows, or through prisms indirectly will help avoid "cabin fever".

Lava tubes might not be needed, but the amount of protection as well as volume provided for potentile growth far out balances the work requirements that a regolith covered facility would require.  Using "skylight" holes as both access and entry to lava tubes, minimizes material needed to be shipped to Mars while maximizing available potentile pressurized volume.  (Note: the larger a pressurized volume available, the lower the danger from depressurization as larger volumes hold a larger volume of air than smaller tube style habitats).

     While the earliest colony structures WILL likely be regolith covered surface structures, building them near "skylight" holes with the intent to eventually build colonial facilities in the lava tubes, would be economically and manpower saving.
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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Artificially Grown Meat
« Reply #38 on: 05/31/2015 08:35 pm »
Mars is the last place that will get vat meat -- Mars will still be growing meat from animals after that has become obsolete on Earth.

It seems intuitive that Mars will tend to have higher-tech production than Earth.  That intuition is wrong.  Mars production will tend to be lower tech as long as the size of the colony on Mars is much smaller than Earth's.

Think of it in terms of the net amount of labor that needs to go into producing various goods.  If something is done with individual human labor, the labor content will be about the same on Earth as on Mars.  But anything done in a factory will have a much higher labor content on Mars than Earth, because either the scale of the factory on Mars will be much, much lower or the good will have to be imported from Earth because the factory doesn't even exist on Mars.

Now it's true that resources available on Earth but more scarce on Mars might skew that in some cases.  But I don't think that's the case with at least some animals.  It may be impractical to raise a whale on Mars, but not a chicken.  A chicken is a nice small factory for turning plant matter into meat.  It doesn't require spare parts and trained technicians to repair it.  It doesn't take a large factory to create another chicken.  It doesn't require chemical inputs and cleaning agents that come from large industrial facilities.

Hadn't really considered the full implications of a vat meat system, but I think you may have a point.  I would not be supprised to see a high meat pigmy cattle developed especially for such colonial situations.  However, there will still need to be somewhat open areas for the "cattle" to roam, and using robots similar to Roombas to clean up messes in the grass, such an area also would be useful for colonists psychological conditions.

     Truth be told, it would likely be a VERY good idea to create a large enclosed green space with a variety of animals to remind early colonists of home and avoid "Cabin Fever" issues.  Later colonists will likely build cities and green spaces in the lava tubes and caves of Mars.  (I suspect that they may look much like the semi-tubular landscapes depicted for torus type space colonies, up through and including a central tubular elevator structure to the surface for surface operations.
Dwarf cows exist now as really high end pets mostly. They are called mini moos or something like that. but the same role  can be provided by Goats and sheep.

But for your entertainment here are some Mini Moo info.

http://www.littlemoos.com/miniature-cattle.php
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