Author Topic: Star Trek Discovery  (Read 34646 times)

Offline Star One

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
  • UK
  • Liked: 1336
  • Likes Given: 168
Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #180 on: 10/18/2017 05:55 AM »
Burnham is toeing the line dividing her from being a Mary Sue and an Author's Pet. We're told that she's this genius of an officer, probably the best and the brightest of the best and the brightest. However, we, as the audience, are asked to take this on faith as we have had very little actual proof of this presented to us except affirmations from other characters.

I find it strange that this Mary Sue accusation only get wheeled out when it is a female lead character.

Offline Ben the Space Brit

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6996
  • A spaceflight fan
  • London, UK
  • Liked: 553
  • Likes Given: 638
Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #181 on: 10/18/2017 12:47 PM »
I would say the same thing about a male character with similar traits with the key difference that I would accuse him of being nearly a Marty Stu.
"Oops! I left the silly thing in reverse!" - Duck Dodgers

~*~*~*~

The Space Shuttle Program - 1981-2011

The time for words has passed; The time has come to put up or shut up!
DON'T PROPAGANDISE, FLY!!!

Offline sanman

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3892
  • Liked: 488
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #182 on: 10/18/2017 01:02 PM »
At the same time, characters need to have flaws - I was just mentioning that in the Star Wars thread. I liked how The Orville showed flaws in everybody - it helps us to identify with them more.


Online Thorny

  • Regular
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 647
  • San Angelo, Texas
  • Liked: 107
  • Likes Given: 90
Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #183 on: 10/18/2017 01:16 PM »
I find it strange that this Mary Sue accusation only get wheeled out when it is a female lead character.

Aren't "Mary Sue" stories where a brilliant, fresh-out-of-the-Academy girl comes to the Enterprise, falls in love with Kirk, Spock, Data, Riker (fill in the blank) and proceeds to save the day at the end of the story? I don't see that in Discovery/Burnham.

Offline Star One

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
  • UK
  • Liked: 1336
  • Likes Given: 168
Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #184 on: 10/18/2017 01:35 PM »
I find it strange that this Mary Sue accusation only get wheeled out when it is a female lead character.

Aren't "Mary Sue" stories where a brilliant, fresh-out-of-the-Academy girl comes to the Enterprise, falls in love with Kirk, Spock, Data, Riker (fill in the blank) and proceeds to save the day at the end of the story? I don't see that in Discovery/Burnham.

Nor do I which is why I canít see what the OP was on about, as Burnham is nothing like that in anyway shape or form.

Offline Ben the Space Brit

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6996
  • A spaceflight fan
  • London, UK
  • Liked: 553
  • Likes Given: 638
Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #185 on: 10/18/2017 02:03 PM »
I find it strange that this Mary Sue accusation only get wheeled out when it is a female lead character.

Aren't "Mary Sue" stories where a brilliant, fresh-out-of-the-Academy girl comes to the Enterprise, falls in love with Kirk, Spock, Data, Riker (fill in the blank) and proceeds to save the day at the end of the story? I don't see that in Discovery/Burnham.

That's a very common usage of the character but it isn't the only one.

In the most general terms, 'Mary Sue' defines characters that arrive out of the blue with implausible special abilities or refined skills and are instantly admired essentially universally by all the rest of the characters (and this can also go into becoming the focus of romantic thoughts for the canon primary character) despite doing very little to deserve it. The character also usually has a single extremely prominent flaw or drawback that is used unsubtly as an attempt to prove that he/she is not perfect. Mary Sues can sometimes also have dark or tragic backgrounds in an attempt to make them seem edgy or anti-heroes.

Not to be confused with a 'Scrappy' - A new character introduced mid-season that becomes the focus of the show (Seven of Nine nearly had that happen to her and it is to the writers credit that she didn't) -  or a 'Sixth Ranger' - Similar to the above but better integrated to the ensemble and usually a reformed villain.
« Last Edit: 10/18/2017 02:06 PM by Ben the Space Brit »
"Oops! I left the silly thing in reverse!" - Duck Dodgers

~*~*~*~

The Space Shuttle Program - 1981-2011

The time for words has passed; The time has come to put up or shut up!
DON'T PROPAGANDISE, FLY!!!

Offline Star One

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
  • UK
  • Liked: 1336
  • Likes Given: 168
Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #186 on: 10/18/2017 02:09 PM »
I find it strange that this Mary Sue accusation only get wheeled out when it is a female lead character.

Aren't "Mary Sue" stories where a brilliant, fresh-out-of-the-Academy girl comes to the Enterprise, falls in love with Kirk, Spock, Data, Riker (fill in the blank) and proceeds to save the day at the end of the story? I don't see that in Discovery/Burnham.

That's a very common usage of the character but it isn't the only one.

In the most general terms, 'Mary Sue' defines characters that arrive out of the blue with implausible special abilities or refined skills and are instantly admired essentially universally by all the rest of the characters (and this can also go into becoming the focus of romantic thoughts for the canon primary character) despite doing very little to deserve it. The character also usually has a single extremely prominent flaw or drawback that is used unsubtly as an attempt to prove that he/she is not perfect. Mary Sues can sometimes also have dark or tragic backgrounds in an attempt to make them seem edgy or anti-heroes.

Not to be confused with a 'Scrappy' - A new character introduced mid-season that becomes the focus of the show (Seven of Nine nearly had that happen to her and it is to the writers credit that she didn't) -  or a 'Sixth Ranger' - Similar to the above but better integrated to the ensemble and usually a reformed villain.

I donít think sheís that kind of character but if you are so intent with defining the character in that way then all I can suggest is to stop watching the show and all matters will then be resolved.
« Last Edit: 10/18/2017 02:14 PM by Star One »

Online mme

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1055
  • Santa Barbara, CA, USA, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way Galaxy, Virgo Supercluster
  • Liked: 1268
  • Likes Given: 3285
Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #187 on: 10/18/2017 04:05 PM »
Yeah. From the beginning of episode one it almost seems like she has a death wish and/or can't conceive of any impulse of her's being suboptimal. But being a human trying to be a Vulcan can't be easy. I think the writer's are just trying too hard. Hopefully they'll settle down.

We all forget that many shows take a season or two to figure things out. TNG had two lousy seasons before it started to get good. DS9 had a weak first season and took awhile to find its groove.

I do think there are some writing flaws in the show, including Burnham. One of the problems I have with her is that she's not internally consistent. We're led to believe that one of her strengths is that she was raised and educated on Vulcan. And yet she's incredibly impulsive, even more so than the other human characters. It just isn't consistent.
Ah but humans are funny like that.  To quote Heinlein: "Man is not a rational animal; he is a rationalizing animal." I believe there are a psychological studies that show that extremely intelligent people frequently use their intelligence to justify irrational beliefs and behaviors.
Space is not Highlander.  There can, and will, be more than one.

Offline Todd Martin

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Elgin, IL
  • Liked: 54
  • Likes Given: 77
Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #188 on: 10/18/2017 04:26 PM »
As a Trek fan, I'm committed to watching and have generally enjoyed the series so far.  Episode 5, in my opinion, showed a disturbing unethical behavior on the part of the Captain (leaving Mudd behind at gun point).  This bothers me because I learned a great deal as a kid about morality by watching TOS.  I'm hoping Captain Lorca is later held accountable or at least his immorality has negative consequences.  Otherwise, this will be just another show.

Offline Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10986
  • Liked: 2453
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #189 on: 10/18/2017 04:37 PM »
As a Trek fan, I'm committed to watching and have generally enjoyed the series so far.  Episode 5, in my opinion, showed a disturbing unethical behavior on the part of the Captain (leaving Mudd behind at gun point).  This bothers me because I learned a great deal as a kid about morality by watching TOS.  I'm hoping Captain Lorca is later held accountable or at least his immorality has negative consequences.  Otherwise, this will be just another show.

I cannot say that I was greatly disturbed that he left Mudd behind. But it also wasn't very much like Star Trek to do so. The way Star Trek would normally do this is that Lorca would save Mudd, bring him back to Discovery, and promptly throw him into the brig.


Offline Star One

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
  • UK
  • Liked: 1336
  • Likes Given: 168
Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #190 on: 10/18/2017 04:40 PM »
As a Trek fan, I'm committed to watching and have generally enjoyed the series so far.  Episode 5, in my opinion, showed a disturbing unethical behavior on the part of the Captain (leaving Mudd behind at gun point).  This bothers me because I learned a great deal as a kid about morality by watching TOS.  I'm hoping Captain Lorca is later held accountable or at least his immorality has negative consequences.  Otherwise, this will be just another show.

Would you rather they did what the Federation did in the TOS episode Muddís Women where he is effectively a human trafficker and all the crew are seen to do is leer over the ladies.
« Last Edit: 10/18/2017 04:41 PM by Star One »

Offline Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10986
  • Liked: 2453
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #191 on: 10/18/2017 04:51 PM »
Ah but humans are funny like that.  To quote Heinlein: "Man is not a rational animal; he is a rationalizing animal." I believe there are a psychological studies that show that extremely intelligent people frequently use their intelligence to justify irrational beliefs and behaviors.

But we're not talking about a real human here, we're talking about a character on a TV show. I agree that humans can be confoundingly unpredictable at times (heck, I've known people for years, watched their actions, and then seen them do things that just don't really fit what I thought I knew about them). I had problems with the very first episode because of a lack of consistency:

-nobody has seen the Klingons in 100 years, except that they attacked a Vulcan colony (with Burnham on it) 20 years earlier
-the Vulcan reached a peaceful understanding with the Klingons and they don't fight anymore, except that the Klingons attacked that Vulcan colony
-Burnham was educated and trained on Vulcan and should be very logical, except that she rather impulsively disobeys orders a lot

I feel like I need to provide caveats all the time: I don't hate the show (well, except for changing the Klingons). But it has some issues that I hope they work out. I'd like to see it get better.

Online Thorny

  • Regular
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 647
  • San Angelo, Texas
  • Liked: 107
  • Likes Given: 90
Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #192 on: 10/18/2017 05:17 PM »
As a Trek fan, I'm committed to watching and have generally enjoyed the series so far.  Episode 5, in my opinion, showed a disturbing unethical behavior on the part of the Captain (leaving Mudd behind at gun point).

The 'leave Mudd behind' scene was telegraphed when Lorca told the story of the USS Buran, where he killed his crew rather than let them be taken prisoner.* He's ruthless. And frankly, I don't understand how he is still a starship captain after that. I'm wondering if this all plays in to what Burnham is doing on the ship.

*I think. Or was that just a story he told to test Mudd? I thought Mudd raised the subject first, but I'm not sure.

Offline Todd Martin

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Elgin, IL
  • Liked: 54
  • Likes Given: 77
Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #193 on: 10/18/2017 05:21 PM »

Would you rather they did what the Federation did in the TOS episode Muddís Women where he is effectively a human trafficker and all the crew are seen to do is leer over the ladies.
[/quote]

Well, what I saw in TOS:  Mudd's Women was
 * The placebo effect is a powerful thing
 * Drugs don't hold up over the long run
 * Marriage should be more than about how beautiful your wife is

Note, all of Mudd's women were freed from the clutches of Mudd at the end.  Mudd is arrested.  All in all, a fantastic episode IMHO.

Offline Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10986
  • Liked: 2453
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #194 on: 10/18/2017 05:24 PM »
As a Trek fan, I'm committed to watching and have generally enjoyed the series so far.  Episode 5, in my opinion, showed a disturbing unethical behavior on the part of the Captain (leaving Mudd behind at gun point).

The 'leave Mudd behind' scene was telegraphed when Lorca told the story of the USS Buran, where he killed his crew rather than let them be taken prisoner.* He's ruthless. And frankly, I don't understand how he is still a starship captain after that. I'm wondering if this all plays in to what Burnham is doing on the ship.

*I think. Or was that just a story he told to test Mudd? I thought Mudd raised the subject first, but I'm not sure.

Mudd is the one who tells the story about how Lorca killed his crew. Lorca confirms it and says that he did not want them to be captured by the Klingons.

So you're right that by leaving Mudd behind, Lorca is demonstrating his ruthlessness--he is doing to Mudd exactly what he would not allow for his own crew. And I think that you're right that this is setting up stuff that will pay off later in the series, when Lorca's ruthlessness leads to his downfall, and somehow Michael redeems herself and ends up in command.

Online mme

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1055
  • Santa Barbara, CA, USA, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way Galaxy, Virgo Supercluster
  • Liked: 1268
  • Likes Given: 3285
Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #195 on: 10/18/2017 05:44 PM »
Ah but humans are funny like that.  To quote Heinlein: "Man is not a rational animal; he is a rationalizing animal." I believe there are a psychological studies that show that extremely intelligent people frequently use their intelligence to justify irrational beliefs and behaviors.

But we're not talking about a real human here, we're talking about a character on a TV show. I agree that humans can be confoundingly unpredictable at times (heck, I've known people for years, watched their actions, and then seen them do things that just don't really fit what I thought I knew about them). I had problems with the very first episode because of a lack of consistency:

-nobody has seen the Klingons in 100 years, except that they attacked a Vulcan colony (with Burnham on it) 20 years earlier
-the Vulcan reached a peaceful understanding with the Klingons and they don't fight anymore, except that the Klingons attacked that Vulcan colony
-Burnham was educated and trained on Vulcan and should be very logical, except that she rather impulsively disobeys orders a lot

I feel like I need to provide caveats all the time: I don't hate the show (well, except for changing the Klingons). But it has some issues that I hope they work out. I'd like to see it get better.
I'm on the same page. Apologies if I seem to be pushing back too hard, I think you've made a lot of really good points and I've really enjoyed reading your thoughts on the show. There are a lot of issues with the set up of the storyline and the characters. I'm probably trying to justify why I'm optimistic about the show to myself as much as anyone else.
Space is not Highlander.  There can, and will, be more than one.

Offline Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10986
  • Liked: 2453
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #196 on: 10/18/2017 06:40 PM »
I don't think we're in violent disagreement here. I'll keep watching Discovery, but I'm not totally hooked by it. One of my issues with it is that the main characters (Michael, Lorca) are less interesting to me than some of the others. I'm more interested in Saru and, believe it or not, Tilly.*

My biggest overall issues with the show, however, are:

-it just looks too different from previous Star Trek, particularly the Klingons, but other things as well
-it lacks the optimistic tone I've come to associate with Star Trek
-it's a bit too dark and humorless, and I wish they would lighten up a bit



*Her comment that she had a secret, that she was going to be a captain someday, was rather intriguing. I heard her say that and I thought "Now that's a story I'd like to see."


Offline Star One

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8253
  • UK
  • Liked: 1336
  • Likes Given: 168
Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #197 on: 10/18/2017 08:09 PM »
I don't think we're in violent disagreement here. I'll keep watching Discovery, but I'm not totally hooked by it. One of my issues with it is that the main characters (Michael, Lorca) are less interesting to me than some of the others. I'm more interested in Saru and, believe it or not, Tilly.*

My biggest overall issues with the show, however, are:

-it just looks too different from previous Star Trek, particularly the Klingons, but other things as well
-it lacks the optimistic tone I've come to associate with Star Trek
-it's a bit too dark and humorless, and I wish they would lighten up a bit



*Her comment that she had a secret, that she was going to be a captain someday, was rather intriguing. I heard her say that and I thought "Now that's a story I'd like to see."

Itís a bit early to judge though after just five episodes, I am not even sure Lorca is going to last the season.

Offline Blackstar

  • Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10986
  • Liked: 2453
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #198 on: 10/18/2017 09:58 PM »
And if you're like me (and I know that I am...), then you dislike what they've done with the Klingons. Fortunately, there are people out there who are fixing their work. Here's a proper Klingon D7 cruiser:




Online nacnud

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2021
  • Liked: 221
  • Likes Given: 145
Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #199 on: 10/18/2017 10:29 PM »
Hahaha, love it. Just like Star Wars and the despecialized versions :)

Tags: