Author Topic: F-1 Engine Production  (Read 2670 times)

Online spacenut

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F-1 Engine Production
« on: 06/22/2010 04:40 PM »
Does anyone know if there are any F-1 engines still on the "shelf"?  Also, can it be produced today?

Offline Downix

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Re: F-1 Engine Production
« Reply #1 on: 06/22/2010 04:43 PM »
Does anyone know if there are any F-1 engines still on the "shelf"?  Also, can it be produced today?
In theory any of the leftover F-1's could be ressurected, but aging of the metal likely would have eliminated any real hope of use.  Rocketdyne did research the possibility of restarting production, and are confident that they could, but it would be a few years to do and be pretty costly. 
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline beb

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Re: F-1 Engine Production
« Reply #2 on: 06/22/2010 04:46 PM »
Does anyone know if there are any F-1 engines still on the "shelf"?  Also, can it be produced today?

The issue isn't whether it can be produced today but where it should be. The F-1 had an isp of 263 while the RD-180 has an isp of 311 (surface. I'm assuming the F-1's isp is also surface, though not specified as such). That is an enormous gain in fuel efficiency. A RD-180 based HLV would be smaller but more effective than an Saturn V even though it would use more engines.

Offline kfsorensen

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Re: F-1 Engine Production
« Reply #3 on: 06/22/2010 04:46 PM »
If I had a nickel for every time this question has been asked....

Offline jimgagnon

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Re: F-1 Engine Production
« Reply #4 on: 06/22/2010 04:52 PM »
I emailed PWR earlier this year about just this question. They responded that all the F-1 technical and manufacturing data is preserved in their record retention system. Given sufficient money and interested, production could be restarted; early 90's estimates said a half billion dollars -- I'm sure it's more now.

There are five F-1s in NASA cold storage. They were test fired and fully vetted. Of course, that was some forty years ago...
« Last Edit: 06/22/2010 04:52 PM by jimgagnon »

Offline Downix

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Re: F-1 Engine Production
« Reply #5 on: 06/22/2010 04:56 PM »
Does anyone know if there are any F-1 engines still on the "shelf"?  Also, can it be produced today?

The issue isn't whether it can be produced today but where it should be. The F-1 had an isp of 263 while the RD-180 has an isp of 311 (surface. I'm assuming the F-1's isp is also surface, though not specified as such). That is an enormous gain in fuel efficiency. A RD-180 based HLV would be smaller but more effective than an Saturn V even though it would use more engines.
Any "new F-1" would be using the F-1A as the baseline, which has an ISP of 310 vac, 270 SL, just FYI.  Also would have 2 million lbf (9190kN).
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline Archibald

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Re: F-1 Engine Production
« Reply #6 on: 06/22/2010 05:49 PM »
Does anyone know if there are any F-1 engines still on the "shelf"?  Also, can it be produced today?

The answer in this article... www.thespacereview.com/article/588/1

Offline JDCampbell

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Re: F-1 Engine Production
« Reply #7 on: 06/22/2010 06:39 PM »
I emailed PWR earlier this year about just this question. They responded that all the F-1 technical and manufacturing data is preserved in their record retention system. Given sufficient money and interested, production could be restarted; early 90's estimates said a half billion dollars -- I'm sure it's more now.

There are five F-1s in NASA cold storage. They were test fired and fully vetted. Of course, that was some forty years ago...

Yeah, forty-years ago. Does that mean we buy another 100 from the Russians? Sure the RD-180 has a better lsp @SL, but does that mean the F-1A could not be improved? The Shuttle is done. It served its purpose with honors and the lives of our astronauts, but its time to move on and get back to basics. Right now we do not have a man-rated or a SH and you cannot put that weight on SpaceX.

   

Offline ugordan

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Re: F-1 Engine Production
« Reply #8 on: 06/22/2010 06:53 PM »
Sure the RD-180 has a better lsp @SL, but does that mean the F-1A could not be improved?

The F-1A is the improved engine. It's already close to the practical Isp limit for a gas generator engine. The point in restarting its production would be in not having to tinker with design changes, otherwise why bother with F-1A in the first place?

Offline JDCampbell

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Re: F-1 Engine Production
« Reply #9 on: 06/22/2010 07:37 PM »
Sure the RD-180 has a better lsp @SL, but does that mean the F-1A could not be improved?

The F-1A is the improved engine. It's already close to the practical Isp limit for a gas generator engine. The point in restarting its production would be in not having to tinker with design changes, otherwise why bother with F-1A in the first place?

True. That was the tweak. My apologies, I really meant along the lines of production improvements. To bad they never finished the M-1.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730065121_1973065121.pdf

Offline Downix

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Re: F-1 Engine Production
« Reply #10 on: 06/22/2010 10:13 PM »
Sure the RD-180 has a better lsp @SL, but does that mean the F-1A could not be improved?

The F-1A is the improved engine. It's already close to the practical Isp limit for a gas generator engine. The point in restarting its production would be in not having to tinker with design changes, otherwise why bother with F-1A in the first place?

True. That was the tweak. My apologies, I really meant along the lines of production improvements. To bad they never finished the M-1.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730065121_1973065121.pdf
We can do so much better now, with TAN and such.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline mmeijeri

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Re: F-1 Engine Production
« Reply #11 on: 06/22/2010 10:16 PM »
If I had a nickel for every time this question has been asked....

... then you still wouldn't have enough money to buy an actual F-1!  ;)
We will be vic-toooooo-ri-ous!!!

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