Author Topic: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings  (Read 22739 times)

Offline ADC9

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Offline CFE

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Re: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings
« Reply #1 on: 04/28/2007 10:47 am »
I don't understand how ULA plans on promoting Atlas & Delta concurrently when there's so much overlap in terms of capabilities.  For that matter, how will USAF or NASA pick between the two for future contracts?  I tend to think that Atlas V is more flexible and reliable than Delta IV, and there's little reason for keeping Delta IV in production (aside from silly concerns about Atlas's Russian engine.)
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Offline clongton

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Re: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings
« Reply #2 on: 04/28/2007 11:18 am »
Quote
CFE - 28/4/2007  6:47 AM

(aside from silly concerns about Atlas's Russian engine.)
How many RD-180's are on-hand, and how many are still in the pipeline?
How many are LM going to need for the forseeable future?
Is the RD-180 still being produced ONLY in Russia and if so, what is the likelyhood that PWR will be licensed to do the production stateside?
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Offline wannamoonbase

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Re: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings
« Reply #3 on: 04/28/2007 11:32 am »
I agree with the RD-180 comments.  Its too bad that there isn't a US equivalent designed and built.  Perhaps 10 or 20% more powerful.  It always comes back to that Russian engine and political question.  Which is too bad because its a great engine.
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Offline Heg

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Re: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings
« Reply #4 on: 04/28/2007 11:55 am »
BTW, is there any possibility to restart develompment of the RS-84? Or to develop simplified, throw-away engine based on it?
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Offline rsp1202

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Re: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings
« Reply #5 on: 04/28/2007 02:02 pm »
Simplified version should be developed, but there's just no money, and seemingly no will.

Offline Antares

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Re: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings
« Reply #6 on: 04/28/2007 04:46 pm »
Quote
clongton - 28/4/2007  7:18 AM
How many RD-180's are on-hand, and how many are still in the pipeline?
How many are LM going to need for the forseeable future?
Is the RD-180 still being produced ONLY in Russia and if so, what is the likelyhood that PWR will be licensed to do the production stateside?
20ish, 70ish
Total order was 101.
Only in Moscow.  Some technical uncertainty, MUCH financial uncertainty.
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Offline quark

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Re: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings
« Reply #7 on: 04/29/2007 03:35 am »
Quote
Antares - 28/4/2007  10:46 AM

Quote
clongton - 28/4/2007  7:18 AM
How many RD-180's are on-hand, and how many are still in the pipeline?
How many are LM going to need for the forseeable future?
Is the RD-180 still being produced ONLY in Russia and if so, what is the likelyhood that PWR will be licensed to do the production stateside?
20ish, 70ish
Total order was 101.
Only in Moscow.  Some technical uncertainty, MUCH financial uncertainty.

This issue is a complete strawman.  

The quality and reliability of the RD-180 produced in Russia is beyond question.  The question of establishing a second source in the US is not a matter of licensing.  All that is in place.  It is a matter of need and money.  The supply is not currently at risk and the capability to co-produce in the US exists.  All the intellectual property is in country, translated and the engineering expertise has been established.  But given the current production rate and the expense of creating a new factory, there is NO business case.

If there was sufficient demand or reason to question the Russian supply, a second source could be established within a few years.

Get over it.  The RD-180 is the best rocket engine on earth.  It far out strips the RS-68 or SSME.  It just so happens to be designed and built by Russians.

Offline MATTBLAK

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Re: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings
« Reply #8 on: 04/29/2007 03:54 am »
Best/most versatile LOX/RP-1 engine, anyway. Its big brother the RD-170 is more powerful than the F-1, but the RD-180's more compact size and more probable upgradeability means it would make a decent engine for Ares V/Direct strap-on boosters. 2x strap-ons, each powered by 3x RD-180s would be a formidable asset to a heavy lifter, outperforming 5-Segment SRBs in every way. Heck, an Ares V with 5.4m strap-on boosters, powered by 'only' 2x RD-180s would still lift more than 100 metric tons to LEO, if 2x J-2X are used in the EDS/Upper Stage. That kind of booster would be the best possible mix of Atlas, Delta, Shuttle and Saturn heritage.

My recipe:

Create Atlas V, Phase 2 (5.4m diameter corestage, 2x RD-180 - Upper Stage; 1x J-2X). No need for Ares 1, but work done on Ares 1 second stage not wasted. This would be a very good CLV.

A derivative of this CLV becomes the basis of the strap-on boosters for Ares V/Direct (8.4m diameter corestage -- heritage Shuttle E.T. tooling) but powered by 'only' 4x RS-68-Regen (Ares IV?). Upperstage? 8.4m diameter EDS, optimised with maximum possible propellant load, with 2x J-2X and on-orbit loiter of up to 30 days.

Egad -- by bringing together the best mix of everybody's ideas, we'd solve the 'launch problem'!!

What's that, some of you say? They wouldn't go for it?

Oh... :(  ;)
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Offline Christine

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Re: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings
« Reply #9 on: 04/30/2007 02:17 pm »
Quote
MATTBLAK - 28/4/2007  10:54 PM
My recipe:
Create Atlas V, Phase 2 (5.4m diameter corestage, 2x RD-180 - Upper Stage; 1x J-2X). No need for Ares 1, but work done on Ares 1 second stage not wasted. This would be a very good CLV.

Or you can use the RL-10 or RL-60 which will give you engine out, better isp, and save you a billion on engine development.

Offline Jim

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Re: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings
« Reply #10 on: 04/30/2007 02:41 pm »
Quote
Christine - 30/4/2007  10:17 AM

Quote
MATTBLAK - 28/4/2007  10:54 PM
My recipe:
Create Atlas V, Phase 2 (5.4m diameter corestage, 2x RD-180 - Upper Stage; 1x J-2X). No need for Ares 1, but work done on Ares 1 second stage not wasted. This would be a very good CLV.

Or you can use the RL-10 or RL-60 which will give you engine out, better isp, and save you a billion on engine development.

RL-60 is also development project and  maybe a little behind the J-2

Offline Damon Hill

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Re: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings
« Reply #11 on: 05/04/2007 11:25 pm »
Last I heard, the RL60 prototype was working hardware and the production version hardware was already partly built.  I don't think a full flight version had actually been assembled before the program apparently went on the shelf.  Mitsubishi has begun testing the similar MB-XX as of late 2005.  I'd be interested in knowing the cost of a RL60 in production volume, and if its higher Isp would justify a four engine cluster over a single J-2X.

J-2X really seems like a whole new program even though it's directly derived from existing hardware.  Be nice to have, though.

Offline WHAP

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Re: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings
« Reply #12 on: 05/05/2007 03:16 am »
Quote
Director - 4/5/2007  6:32 PM

"The RD-180 is the best rocket engine on earth. It far out strips the RS-68 or SSME. It just so happens to be designed and built by Russians."

Which explains why an RD-170 recently failed spectacularly, and why an SSME has a much higher exhaust velocity, is reusable, and has flown in excess of 330 times with very few mishaps, none of them catastrophic.

There are a bunch of threads that get into arguments about the meaning of "best".  RD-180 has double the thrust (at sea level), 10% higher thrust to weight, and greater throttle range, in approximately the same size package.  SSME has higher ISP, but I don't think that's a big plus for a booster engine.  What does higher exhaust velocity give you as far as performance?  What's the cost to refurbish two SSME's vs. the cost of a new RD-180?

RD-180: http://www.spaceandtech.com/spacedata/engines/rd180_specs.shtml
SSME: http://www.spaceandtech.com/spacedata/engines/ssme_specs.shtml

As I recall, the cause of the Zenit failure hadn't been officially released yet, so what do you know that implicates the RD-170 vs. something upstream?

Of course, the SSME discussion is OT for this thread, but it would be hard to argue that the RS-68 comes close to the RD-180 in terms of performance.
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Offline MATTBLAK

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Re: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings
« Reply #13 on: 05/05/2007 04:52 am »
Quote
Christine - 1/5/2007  1:17 AM

Quote
MATTBLAK - 28/4/2007  10:54 PM
My recipe:
Create Atlas V, Phase 2 (5.4m diameter corestage, 2x RD-180 - Upper Stage; 1x J-2X). No need for Ares 1, but work done on Ares 1 second stage not wasted. This would be a very good CLV.

Or you can use the RL-10 or RL-60 which will give you engine out, better isp, and save you a billion on engine development.

Cluster of 5x RL-10-B2 engines weight: 3320 pounds, thrust: 125,000 pounds. Isp -- 462 seconds.
5x RL-60 engines weight: 5500 pounds, thrust: 300,000 pounds. Isp -- 465 seconds.

1x J-2X weight: 4000 pounds (approx.), thrust: 290,000 pounds. Isp -- 448 seconds (goal).

Conclusion? Standard RL-10 too weak, RL-10-B2 better but 5x thrust still far inferior to 1x J-2X or cluster of RL-60s. 1x J-2X lowest structural weight and simplest plumbing. 5x RL-60s a reasonable alternative, but higher weight and complexity of multiple engine cluster hauled to space impacts payload amount and reliability statistics, despite a desirable engine-out ability. And would a cluster of 6x RL-60s on a 5.4 meter diameter stage be feasible. Would they fit? I'll have to look into that.
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Offline clongton

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Re: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings
« Reply #14 on: 05/05/2007 12:17 pm »
Quote
MATTBLAK - 5/5/2007  12:52 AM

Quote
Christine - 1/5/2007  1:17 AM

Quote
MATTBLAK - 28/4/2007  10:54 PM
My recipe:
Create Atlas V, Phase 2 (5.4m diameter corestage, 2x RD-180 - Upper Stage; 1x J-2X). No need for Ares 1, but work done on Ares 1 second stage not wasted. This would be a very good CLV.

Or you can use the RL-10 or RL-60 which will give you engine out, better isp, and save you a billion on engine development.

Cluster of 5x RL-10-B2 engines weight: 3320 pounds, thrust: 125,000 pounds. Isp -- 462 seconds.
5x RL-60 engines weight: 5500 pounds, thrust: 300,000 pounds. Isp -- 465 seconds.

1x J-2X weight: 4000 pounds (approx.), thrust: 290,000 pounds. Isp -- 448 seconds (goal).

Conclusion? Standard RL-10 too weak, RL-10-B2 better but 5x thrust still far inferior to 1x J-2X or cluster of RL-60s. 1x J-2X lowest structural weight and simplest plumbing. 5x RL-60s a reasonable alternative, but higher weight and complexity of multiple engine cluster hauled to space impacts payload amount and reliability statistics, despite a desirable engine-out ability. And would a cluster of 6x RL-60s on a 5.4 meter diameter stage be feasible. Would they fit? I'll have to look into that.
What you are describing is the rough equivelant of the ICES stage that, because it's specifically designed to effectively cluster these engines, together with variable tank length for the correct propellant load, would be more efficient than simply multiplying the engine performances by the number of engines. It fits very nicely on the 5.4m core stage and LM is definately planning on fielding this stage as the next evolution in its plans.
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Offline Heg

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RE: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings
« Reply #15 on: 05/05/2007 12:57 pm »
Quote
Director - 5/5/2007  6:50 AM

"What does higher exhaust velocity give you as far as performance?"

   The ability to get to orbit, for one thing.


(...)

Well, the exhaust velocity is tightly connected with an Isp (you can in fact argue that it IS the Isp; it all depends on units in what you measure it), which in turn mainly depends on what fuel (and oxidizer) you burn in your engine. So an LH2/LOX engine will always have higher exhaust velocity (and Isp) than Kerosene/LOX one in the same conditions.
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Offline MATTBLAK

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Re: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings
« Reply #16 on: 05/05/2007 01:22 pm »

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/12382.pdf

(See above) Yes! I'm reminded now that up to 6x RL-10 derivatives can fit on an ICES 5.4m diameter stage. Since the RL-60 and RL-10 series are supposed to be very similar in dimensions, I would imagine that a cluster of six RL-60s would make a very high performance stage -- the superior Isp and thrust of the 6x RL-60s making up for the mass of the six engines (6x RL-60s weighs 6600 pounds, 360000 lbs thrust and 465 seconds Isp, VS 1x J-2X weighing 4000 pounds with 294000 pounds thrust and 448 seconds Isp).

Apples and oranges, you could say.

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Offline WHAP

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RE: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings
« Reply #17 on: 05/05/2007 01:31 pm »
Quote
Director - 4/5/2007  10:50 PM

"What does higher exhaust velocity give you as far as performance?"

    The ability to get to orbit, for one thing. 

We know that both engines can get payloads to orbit.  I'd rather have a more structurally efficient booster with lower Isp and higher thrust.

Quote

"What's the cost to refurbish two SSME's vs. the cost of a new RD-180?"

    We'll need to transition to full flow engines with channel wall nozzles.

 

I don't understand how this response addressed my question.  I was asking about the current design of both engines.
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Offline Jim

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Re: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings
« Reply #18 on: 05/05/2007 02:14 pm »
Doesn't matter.  SSME is a dead program.  No use after shuttle

Offline privateer

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Re: Boeing's Delta IV May Get New Wings
« Reply #19 on: 05/05/2007 03:42 pm »
Quote
Director - 4/5/2007  7:32 PM
"The RD-180 is the best rocket engine on earth. It far out strips the RS-68 or SSME. It just so happens to be designed and built by Russians."

Which explains why an RD-170 recently failed spectacularly, and why an SSME has a much higher exhaust velocity, is reusable, and has flown in excess of 330 times with very few mishaps, none of them catastrophic.

Comparison of Isp between LH+LOX and kero+LOX engines is unfair. *Of course* LH will win on Isp! But it will lose badly on tank volume and insulation (and therefore on tank dry weight), and also on higher difficulties and costs of dealing with LH production, storage and pumping versus kerosene.

You also forgot the cost of SSME.

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