Author Topic: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries  (Read 34064 times)

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #20 on: 09/25/2013 05:05 pm »

- what does "radiation shielding" mean?  Heat shielding (if there is only 3 engines on F9R-1) I could understand.  But radiation shielding?
-
Heat is just another form of radiation. That is, if you consider radiation as electromagnetic radiation. The electromagnetic spectrum holds all forms of electromagnetic radiation from below the low frequences of radio all the way up to the high frequency gamma radiation. All other forms of electromagnetic radiation, including heat (= infrared) are in between those two extremes.
Shielding the bottom part of the rocket against heat is actually shielding the rocket from infrared radiation.

Technically correct, but the phrase "radiation shielding" as applied to space systems usually connotes high frequency EM/particle radiation, not heat transfer. It's not typically used to describe thermal protection, which is what this appears to be.
Not all radiation is ionizing radiation. Radio waves are radiation. Infrared is radiation. Visible light is radiation. All it needs to do is radiate, i.e. travel in a line away from the source.

Just because the layman doesn't understand what the term means doesn't mean the article is incorrect in using the term.
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Offline go4mars

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #21 on: 09/25/2013 05:30 pm »
Cool thread and article.  I especially like the photos of the Grasshopper 2. 

Article name is great too.    I wonder if the name of the rocket factory could be changed to "The Rookery".  :D
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Offline Jason1701

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #22 on: 09/25/2013 05:45 pm »
Delta IV's production was also designed for 40 cores/year.

BTW, they're test-firing engines nearly every day at McGregor I hear. They can test two at once.

Two M1Ds, plus an MVacD and two SuperDracos! Not to mention stage- and component-level tests.

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #23 on: 09/25/2013 07:08 pm »
Cool thread and article.  I especially like the photos of the Grasshopper 2. 

Article name is great too.    I wonder if the name of the rocket factory could be changed to "The Rookery".  :D

Thanks! I was, however, someone would have photoshopped it by now, with the stages having baby faces, one crying, one with a dummy/pacifier, another doing that weird baby laugh face.....

.....but that's just me :D
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Offline douglas100

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #24 on: 09/25/2013 08:09 pm »

..It's been suggested that F9R-1 will have only three engines, which would seem to jibe with the photo.

Yes, agree. It looks like the centre engine is still to be installed.

I thought the idea of the octaweb was that all 9 engines would be mounted on it prior to integration with the stage. This doesn't seem to be the case for F9R-1, unless they are going with only two engines, which seems unlikely, since the centre one is used for landing. But this stage is a special article so I guess its assembly sequence might be different from a standard stage.
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Offline hop

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #25 on: 09/25/2013 08:23 pm »
How the devil do you build, certify, test fire, & integrate 182 rocket engines a year, much less 400.
Through the 70s and 80s, the R7 family averaged a bit over one launch per week. That's 260 cores and engines with 1040 combustion chambers per year.

Offline jedsmd

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #26 on: 09/25/2013 08:29 pm »

..It's been suggested that F9R-1 will have only three engines, which would seem to jibe with the photo.

Yes, agree. It looks like the centre engine is still to be installed.

I thought the idea of the octaweb was that all 9 engines would be mounted on it prior to integration with the stage. This doesn't seem to be the case for F9R-1, unless they are going with only two engines, which seems unlikely, since the centre one is used for landing. But this stage is a special article so I guess its assembly sequence might be different from a standard stage.




The tooling for installing 9 engines at the same time is visible inline with the left core. (I think :) )

Offline cambrianera

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #27 on: 09/25/2013 08:44 pm »
That makes me wonder. We saw an entire area dedicated to the mating of engines with the octaweb (see pic).
I believe the tooling seen in the picture is only a truss to push and slide the assembled octaweb plus engines inside the bottom part of the stage.
That's also why the GH2-F9R is differently treated, needing only three engines (as seems).
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Offline smoliarm

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #28 on: 09/25/2013 10:41 pm »
Cool thread and article.  I especially like the photos of the Grasshopper 2. 

Article name is great too.    I wonder if the name of the rocket factory could be changed to "The Rookery".  :D

Thanks! I was, however, someone would have photoshopped it by now, with the stages having baby faces, one crying, one with a dummy/pacifier, another doing that weird baby laugh face.....

.....but that's just me :D

I'm not that good with PS,
I just got a line for that picture with six Dragons:
"Mommy, look! Baby-dragons! Can I have one?! PLEASE!!"

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #29 on: 09/26/2013 12:49 am »
Assuming "cores" encompasses both first and second stages, and that SpaceX might eventually have three FH launches/yr:
 - 3xFH: 12 cores using 81 M1D and 3 M1D-Vac
 - 14xF9: 28 cores using 126 M1D and 14 M1D-Vac
Total engine count under this would be 207 M1D + 17 M1D-Vac = 224 engines.

That's not such a huge number to keep moving through a production line. It would keep MacGregor reasonably busy though if test-firing every engine - every week 4 or 5 production engines arrive for testing, as well as any development tests.

I had always understood SpaceX to use the term "core" to mean something with nine engines -- a first stage of a Falcon 9 or one of the three parallel lower stages of a Falcon Heavy.  I didn't think it included upper stages.

So, 10 Falcon 9 plus 10 Falcon Heavy launches a year is 40 cores.  And I believe 10 F9 plus 10 FH launches is what SpaceX has said before they are targeting.

They've also talked about a production rate of 400 Merlin 1 engines a year, which would be just about right for 10 F9 plus 10 FH -- 380 engines for the 20 launches, plus 20 spares.

Offline smoliarm

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #30 on: 09/26/2013 08:28 am »
Assuming "cores" encompasses both first and second stages, and that SpaceX might eventually have three FH launches/yr:
 - 3xFH: 12 cores using 81 M1D and 3 M1D-Vac
 - 14xF9: 28 cores using 126 M1D and 14 M1D-Vac
Total engine count under this would be 207 M1D + 17 M1D-Vac = 224 engines.

That's not such a huge number to keep moving through a production line. It would keep MacGregor reasonably busy though if test-firing every engine - every week 4 or 5 production engines arrive for testing, as well as any development tests.

I had always understood SpaceX to use the term "core" to mean something with nine engines -- a first stage of a Falcon 9 or one of the three parallel lower stages of a Falcon Heavy.  I didn't think it included upper stages.

So, 10 Falcon 9 plus 10 Falcon Heavy launches a year is 40 cores.  And I believe 10 F9 plus 10 FH launches is what SpaceX has said before they are targeting.

They've also talked about a production rate of 400 Merlin 1 engines a year, which would be just about right for 10 F9 plus 10 FH -- 380 engines for the 20 launches, plus 20 spares.

Yes, I remember this too, Elon mentioned that number, and Gwynne said the same quite recently.
But, as I recall this last time she said "four hundreds engines a year" (like "all engines", not specifically Merlins). So, I suspect she counted Dracos into these 400 as well.
However, with 3 CRS mission a year, this makes only 13% difference.

Offline Jcc

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #31 on: 09/26/2013 11:05 am »
Quote
According to L2 information, the only noticeable differences in the Crew Dragon weldment are that the aft cylinder is a few inches longer than on Cargo, and there are clevises machined into the edge of the forward bulkhead to receive SuperDraco thrusters.

Does this mean that SuperDracos will be used only on Crewed Dragon and not Cargo Dragon?
Not used on the current version of Cargo Dragon (i.e. not for CRS missions). SpaceX plan for Cargo Dragon to eventually use SuperDracos. Think 2016 timeframe.

This means cargo dragons could have a LAS also. Nice if transporting very valuable cargo!

Offline guckyfan

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #32 on: 09/26/2013 11:18 am »

This means cargo dragons could have a LAS also. Nice if transporting very valuable cargo!

That would require the cargo to be able to withstand the high G-force on escape and the packing for that.  I think the advantage would be more in powered landing, easy recovery of downmass and easy reuse of the Dragon.


Offline Roy_H

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #33 on: 09/26/2013 12:20 pm »

This means cargo dragons could have a LAS also. Nice if transporting very valuable cargo!

That would require the cargo to be able to withstand the high G-force on escape and the packing for that.  I think the advantage would be more in powered landing, easy recovery of downmass and easy reuse of the Dragon.

I certainly agree that the primary advantage would be in landing, but since the capability is there it would be foolish to discount LAS. Assuming most cargo could withstand high G forces, loosing only some of the cargo and saving the very valuable Dragon would be well worth it.
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Online Mike_1179

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #34 on: 09/26/2013 12:29 pm »
If you're willing to give up payload in place of it.

Offline ChefPat

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #35 on: 09/26/2013 01:00 pm »
If you're willing to give up payload in place of it.
If the rocket is in the process of deflagrating I think the payload will too if you don't use the LAS.
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Offline JBF

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #36 on: 09/26/2013 01:03 pm »
If you're willing to give up payload in place of it.
If the rocket is in the process of deflagrating I think the payload will too if you don't use the LAS.

His point is that if you add enough packaging to handle the abort thrust it will decrease the payload you can take up if there is no abort.
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Offline notsorandom

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #37 on: 09/26/2013 01:07 pm »
Regardless if the the LAS is used to save cargo there may be some manufacturing and economic benefits in having as few differences between the different Dragon versions as possible.

Offline guckyfan

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #38 on: 09/26/2013 02:33 pm »
Regardless if the the LAS is used to save cargo there may be some manufacturing and economic benefits in having as few differences between the different Dragon versions as possible.

Also if NASA agrees it would be a great advantage to demonstrate powered landing with cargo instead of manned Dragon. I don't know if they can hover with Super Draco or thrust is too high like with Falcon. If they cannot it might be difficult to demonstrate powered landing. Or they can do it with helicopter or airplane drops.




Offline mr. mark

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Re: SpaceX show off their Falcon and Dragon nurseries
« Reply #39 on: 09/26/2013 02:40 pm »
I'm more interested in SpaceX timelines for manned Dragon development. First, we have the drop test which was supposed to come very soon. Next the pad LAS test and then the in flight LAS test.  Wonder how SpaceX is doing with the timeline?
« Last Edit: 09/26/2013 02:41 pm by mr. mark »

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