Given these, I'm going to ask for consensus from both sides of the debate:Is it possible to conclude at this point that the *only way* to achieve 1 mission per synod per vehicle (given obvious assumptions like methalox + Raptor) is using high-velocity aerocapture as well as refueling from an already-prepared Mars surface fuel depot during a short (days-weeks) surface stay?
Quote from: Burninate on 11/04/2015 01:08 pmGiven these, I'm going to ask for consensus from both sides of the debate:Is it possible to conclude at this point that the *only way* to achieve 1 mission per synod per vehicle (given obvious assumptions like methalox + Raptor) is using high-velocity aerocapture as well as refueling from an already-prepared Mars surface fuel depot during a short (days-weeks) surface stay?I know no other way to achieve 1 mission per synod per vehicle than using opposition class missions. This requires refuelling from a Mars surface depot.The NASA Tracjectory Browser can give useful results. Earth re-entry speeds may be pretty high.
Why not fuel depots at either end as well as on the surface?
Quote from: MikeAtkinson on 11/04/2015 01:37 pmQuote from: Burninate on 11/04/2015 01:08 pmGiven these, I'm going to ask for consensus from both sides of the debate:Is it possible to conclude at this point that the *only way* to achieve 1 mission per synod per vehicle (given obvious assumptions like methalox + Raptor) is using high-velocity aerocapture as well as refueling from an already-prepared Mars surface fuel depot during a short (days-weeks) surface stay?I know no other way to achieve 1 mission per synod per vehicle than using opposition class missions. This requires refuelling from a Mars surface depot.The NASA Tracjectory Browser can give useful results. Earth re-entry speeds may be pretty high.One other possibility involves LMO refuelling and cargo transfer to dedicated surface to LMO craft.
Quote from: nadreck on 11/04/2015 03:48 pmQuote from: MikeAtkinson on 11/04/2015 01:37 pmQuote from: Burninate on 11/04/2015 01:08 pmGiven these, I'm going to ask for consensus from both sides of the debate:Is it possible to conclude at this point that the *only way* to achieve 1 mission per synod per vehicle (given obvious assumptions like methalox + Raptor) is using high-velocity aerocapture as well as refueling from an already-prepared Mars surface fuel depot during a short (days-weeks) surface stay?I know no other way to achieve 1 mission per synod per vehicle than using opposition class missions. This requires refuelling from a Mars surface depot.The NASA Tracjectory Browser can give useful results. Earth re-entry speeds may be pretty high.One other possibility involves LMO refuelling and cargo transfer to dedicated surface to LMO craft.If you think this is a legit alternative, could you expand on it sufficient to understand what you're proposing? It doesn't seem to mitigate the need for extreme aerocapture or a Mars surface depot or a short stay, and it sounds fairly difficult on top of that.Still waiting to hear acknowledgements or challenges from several others on my point.
My solution would be to make a vehicle that splits in two, a large drive section and a simple freight section that is just a frame with cargo containers attached all over it's surface and propellant tanks. Upon arrive at the destination the vehicles splits apart and changes out it's freight section and picks up a new one. At Earth a freight section full of cargo and propellants is picked up, at mars this freight section is empty of propellant and is dropped off and a section full of return propellant is picked up. With 3 freight sections per drive section you have one being loaded, one being unloaded and one in transit at all times, and the freight section acts as the propellant depot and the turn-around operation is simplified to a single docking and un-docking for the drive section.
Quote from: Impaler on 11/05/2015 02:20 amMy solution would be to make a vehicle that splits in two, a large drive section and a simple freight section that is just a frame with cargo containers attached all over it's surface and propellant tanks. Upon arrive at the destination the vehicles splits apart and changes out it's freight section and picks up a new one. At Earth a freight section full of cargo and propellants is picked up, at mars this freight section is empty of propellant and is dropped off and a section full of return propellant is picked up. With 3 freight sections per drive section you have one being loaded, one being unloaded and one in transit at all times, and the freight section acts as the propellant depot and the turn-around operation is simplified to a single docking and un-docking for the drive section.Something like this?
Impaler's concept always made sense to me, but with VTVL.I envisioned MCT as a fuel-and-propulsion central core, and then cargo/habitat all around it.It lands, sheds the payload, and can fly back much lighter.You automatically get the benefit of a large cross section for Mars EDL, and a smaller one when returning to Earth.Basically, Mars needs enclosed volumes for habitation and storage. It seems such a shame to haul back an empty cargo hold.This configuration also solves the "how to get the payload to the ground" question. It's already at ground level when you land.Get back to earth, attach new "saddle bags", and lift off again.IMO there won't be in-orbit refueling around Mars, and so it is important to minimize the empty mass of MCT on the flight back, so the same engine and tanks will give you more dV.
Quote from: Sohl on 11/05/2015 04:57 pmQuote from: Impaler on 11/05/2015 02:20 amMy solution would be to make a vehicle that splits in two, a large drive section and a simple freight section that is just a frame with cargo containers attached all over it's surface and propellant tanks. Upon arrive at the destination the vehicles splits apart and changes out it's freight section and picks up a new one. At Earth a freight section full of cargo and propellants is picked up, at mars this freight section is empty of propellant and is dropped off and a section full of return propellant is picked up. With 3 freight sections per drive section you have one being loaded, one being unloaded and one in transit at all times, and the freight section acts as the propellant depot and the turn-around operation is simplified to a single docking and un-docking for the drive section.Something like this? No nothing like that, it would look like this You see I'm not proposing a landing craft, I'm proposing a pure spacecraft (did I not mention it was SEP propulsion based). >
Not to pick nits, but Enterprise saucer section could land. The entire Intrepid Class (ex: Voyager) could land.
The BFR first stage won't even reach Earth orbit, dose that mean it's not part of the Mars Colonial Transport SYSTEM? I have already clearly described a landing craft (which you railed against most vehemently).