Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 10  (Read 1635186 times)

Offline Mark7777777

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Thanks for your post. In the future if you could use complete sentences http://study.com/academy/lesson/complete-and-incomplete-sentences-examples-lesson-quiz.html in posts that would be appreciated -- meaning people don't have extra cognitive load associated with trying to summize a logical meaning.

Tia

Now, if only TT would throw in some video of his "amazing results", a lot of us would be happy campers, no?

There is a paper and patent in the works. Do hope the paper will make it through peer review, via the same journal as Dr. White used. Do note that Dr. White's paper is yet to make it into print. It seems that being in the Articles in Advance of JOPP is maybe as far as it will go.

Will confirm that 50g at 100W or approx 5N/kW has been achieved. Working to increase that by 10x with an ultimate goal of 100-200N/kW (10-20kgf/kW) without using cryo cooling or superconducting cavities.

Can share that the number of transits of the dual travelling waves (really photon wavelets) is the driver and not the Q, which while important, is really just one of the factors that determines the number of transits.

Offline Flyby

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Now, if only TT would throw in some video of his "amazing results", a lot of us would be happy campers, no?

There is a paper and patent in the works. Do hope the paper will make it through peer review, via the same journal as Dr. White used. Do note that Dr. White's paper is yet to make it into print. It seems that being in the Articles in Advance of JOPP is maybe as far as it will go.

Will confirm that 50g at 100W or approx 5N/kW has been achieved. Working to increase that by 10x with an ultimate goal of 100-200N/kW (10-20kgf/kW) without using cryo cooling or superconducting cavities.

Can share that the number of transits of the dual travelling waves (really photon wavelets) is the driver and not the Q, which while important, is really just one of the factors that determines the number of transits.
Are you sure you did not make any magnitude error there?
These numbers, (50gf/100W) do seem HUGE, compared to what we've seen so far...

My first reaction is a certain degree of disbelieve, mainly because apart from words , you did not show anything yet.
But at the same time, I can not believe that you, as an experienced engineer, would make all these things up as a fantasy. You often make big  (sometimes inaccurate) claims and make a lot of noise/fuzz. But i can  not imagine that you would deliberately lie on this...

So.... I'm perplexed by the numbers you put forward, not knowing what to make of it...

IF - and i can't stress the conditional enough - your numbers reflect a reality that you got an EMdrive producing 5N/kW, then this is a huge paradigm shift. All dedicated forum dwellers inhere know that...
I wish i could believe it, but my modest science education dictates i need proof before I can accept this a real thing...

Offline flux_capacitor

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I concur on what has been said already.
Moreover:
Have you seen how in Yang's drawing those angled lines, showing where plain materials are located, are considerably thinner only for the big end plate, explicitly suggesting a different material used in here than the rest of the construction? Although it was right there under our nose for years, we missed that. This is exactly like in the picture of the test article with a thick copper big end plate sitting on top of a cavity + waveguide made of a different material (maybe aluminum or heated/plated brass).

I am almost certain it is indeed Yang's EmDrive.
« Last Edit: 06/18/2017 09:46 am by flux_capacitor »

Offline RERT

Dr.Rodal -

A simple reason to have one end of the frustum with a Copper surface and the other Silver is to deliberately produce more electrical asymmetry. By all accounts geometrical asymmetry is important, as may be asymmetry introduced by dielectrics. Introducing further asymmetry by using metals with different resistivity might help. Seems to imply someone knows, or at least has a theory, as to how the asymmetry drives the force. Or maybe they have been listening here, because I did suggest something similar a few ?thousand? posts back🙂 !

Offline Rodal

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Dr.Rodal -

A simple reason to have one end of the frustum with a Copper surface and the other Silver is to deliberately produce more electrical asymmetry. By all accounts geometrical asymmetry is important, as may be asymmetry introduced by dielectrics. Introducing further asymmetry by using metals with different resistivity might help. Seems to imply someone knows, or at least has a theory, as to how the asymmetry drives the force. Or maybe they have been listening here, because I did suggest something similar a few ?thousand? posts back🙂 !
Yes, a number of us in early EMDrive threads have previously suggested to build the ends of materials having different electric permittivity or different magnetic permeability (depending on whether the mode is TM or TE), but as I wrote:

Also, what would be the reason to make the big end out of copper, if the rest of the construction is silver coated?
If the rest is silver coated, why not make the whole thing silver coated?

if it (silver coating) is good for the goose, why isn't it good for the gander ?

(Silver has 6% higher conductivity than copper)

Material   σ (S/m) at20 °C
Silver     6.30×107
Copper   5.96×107

Ratio of (conductivity of silver)/(conductivity of copper) = 1.06 

only 6% difference in conductivity
If the purpose was to

Quote from: RERT
deliberately produce more electrical asymmetry
,

and the material for the body was brass, why coat it with silver ? you will have much more electrical asymmetry using brass and copper:



Table of electrical conductivity for different materials considered in Yang's EM Drive

Material   σ (S/m) at 20 °C

Silver        6.30×107    (Silver coating on body, suggested by Potomac Neuron)
Copper      5.96×107     (Copper big end plate evident in photograph)
Aluminum  3.69×107      (Aluminum body suggested by Star-Drive)
Brass        1.59×107      (Brass body stated by Yang in her papers)

Ratio of (conductivity of silver)/(conductivity of copper) = 1.06   
Ratio of (conductivity of copper)/(conductivity of aluminum) = 1.62 
Ratio of (conductivity of copper)/(conductivity of brass) = 3.75



Compared with copper and brass, copper and silver (suggested by Potomac Neuron) have practically identical conductivity (only 6% difference), while copper and (uncoated) brass (specified by Yang) have the greatest difference in conductivity: a factor of 3.75 times.

If the brass would have been coated with silver the " electrical asymmetry" would have been greatly reduced from 3.75 times to only 6% difference in conductivity.

If Yang's EM Drive was made of aluminum (as suggested by Star-Drive) instead of brass, the "electrical asymmetry" between copper and aluminum would have been a factor of 1.62.

Silver and copper have the smallest electrical asymmetry of the possible materials that have been discussed for Yang's EM Drive.

Copper and (uncoated) brass (the material that Yang wrote her EM Drive was made of) -not silver- have the greatest electrical asymmetry.

----------
PS1: finally, if the brass (specified by Yang) would have been coated with silver (as suggested by others),  it would probably be coated on the internal surfaces of the cavity (which are not shown) instead of being coated on the external surfaces of the cavity shown in the photograph.  If the principle was to attain the greatest electrical asymmetry, there would be no such silver coating of the brass (anywhere), as the greatest asymmetry is produced by copper and brass.  And there would be no purpose in coating the outside surface of the brass with silver. The simplest interpretation of the data then appears to be that the body was made of uncoated brass (as specified by Yang in her papers) and that the big end endplate was made of copper (which as pointed out by flux_capacitor https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42978.msg1691170#msg1691170  was something shown in the drawing).  With a brass body and a copper big end, the greatest asymmetry in electrical conductivity is achieved, and such construction (brass and copper) would be consistent with Yang's papers and her drawing.
« Last Edit: 06/18/2017 02:44 pm by Rodal »

Offline flux_capacitor

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Why are we sure that the material shown in the picture looks like silver-coated brass? What if the dark patterns were only due to overheating of uncoated brass (see TheTraveller's post)? After all Yang pumped up to 2.5 kW of electric power in the cavity, multiple times. This is quite a lot.

I also think her cavity, if it corresponds to the later one used in her last nullified low-power test, is the same cavity used in her previous high-power tests, retrofitted to use a coaxial feed. If it was another, different cavity, why put a coaxial feed onto a WR340 waveguide? Shawyer used either a waveguide (Demonstrator with a magnetron) or a coaxial feed plugged directly onto the cavity side wall (Flight Thruster with TWTAs), not a combination of both.

So I think Yang used this cavity first with a magnetron feeding RF through the "giant" waveguide (giant wrt the cavity size, like Tajmar's cavity, a not so clever design IMHO) and later fitted a coaxial input onto the existing soldered waveguide to use a lighter and lower power steady state RF power source. Not a smart move in my opinion: the thick wall cavity + its giant waveguide seems very heavy to be used on a low-power torsion pendulum test stand. Maybe the large weight was the reason why Yang had to put not one, but three stiff wires… that maybe ruined the sensitivity of the setup.

Offline FattyLumpkin

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Sim of Yang's frustum wall angles...will have to check back for the frequency. I suppose we could get more energy focused on the small plate by shortening the length? Not to mention (if memory serves) I believe she reported TE012 not 3.   fl
« Last Edit: 06/18/2017 03:42 pm by FattyLumpkin »

Offline ThatOtherGuy

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only 6% difference in conductivity

What if the pics are just some kind of "decoys" (or mockups) ?
« Last Edit: 06/18/2017 04:05 pm by ThatOtherGuy »

Offline Rodal

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...For the sake of clarification do you mean Dr White has abandoned his interest in EM drive?
Dr. White is giving a 40 minute presentation on the EM Drive and White's QV pilot wave theory, and chairing a Breakthrough Propulsion session next week in New York's workshop:

http://www.citytech.cuny.edu/physicsworkshop/

Foundations of Interstellar Studies
Workshop at City Tech, CUNY
June 13-15, 2017, New York, NY USA

Day 3: Breakthrough Propulsion, June 15, 2017
Time   Topic   Speaker   Organization
08.40   Welcome by Session Chairman: Harold White
08.50   1. Pilot Wave Model for Impulsive Thrust from RF Test Device Measured in Vacuum    Harold G. White   NASA JSC Eagleworks
09.30   2. Mach Effect Gravitational Assist Drive    Heidi Fearn et al.   California State University Fullerton
10.10   3. Entanglement and Chameleon Acceleration    Glen A. Robertson   GAResearch LLC
From what I heard (I was not there), Dr. White only talked about his theory and did not present any further experiments with the EM Drive at the Foundations of Interstellar Studies, Workshop at City Tech, CUNY.

Also, unfortunately no video was taken of the presentations

« Last Edit: 06/18/2017 06:06 pm by Rodal »

Offline Star One

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Is it possible his interest has departed from practical experimentation and is now purely theoretical?

Online M.E.T.

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Now, if only TT would throw in some video of his "amazing results", a lot of us would be happy campers, no?

There is a paper and patent in the works. Do hope the paper will make it through peer review, via the same journal as Dr. White used. Do note that Dr. White's paper is yet to make it into print. It seems that being in the Articles in Advance of JOPP is maybe as far as it will go.

Will confirm that 50g at 100W or approx 5N/kW has been achieved. Working to increase that by 10x with an ultimate goal of 100-200N/kW (10-20kgf/kW) without using cryo cooling or superconducting cavities.

Can share that the number of transits of the dual travelling waves (really photon wavelets) is the driver and not the Q, which while important, is really just one of the factors that determines the number of transits.
Are you sure you did not make any magnitude error there?
These numbers, (50gf/100W) do seem HUGE, compared to what we've seen so far...

My first reaction is a certain degree of disbelieve, mainly because apart from words , you did not show anything yet.
But at the same time, I can not believe that you, as an experienced engineer, would make all these things up as a fantasy. You often make big  (sometimes inaccurate) claims and make a lot of noise/fuzz. But i can  not imagine that you would deliberately lie on this...

So.... I'm perplexed by the numbers you put forward, not knowing what to make of it...

IF - and i can't stress the conditional enough - your numbers reflect a reality that you got an EMdrive producing 5N/kW, then this is a huge paradigm shift. All dedicated forum dwellers inhere know that...
I wish i could believe it, but my modest science education dictates i need proof before I can accept this a real thing...

I have to concur with Flyby. As someone who has been following this topic off and on since the very first EMDrive thread on this forum, and the Mach Effect discussion before that, I have to say that results on the scale you are reporting represent a fundamental breakthrough, taking this as yet unproven phenomenon to the level where it becomes visible to the naked eye.

NASA, the Pentagon, and who knows who else should be beating your door down soon, if true.

Offline dustinthewind

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Now, if only TT would throw in some video of his "amazing results", a lot of us would be happy campers, no?

There is a paper and patent in the works. Do hope the paper will make it through peer review, via the same journal as Dr. White used. Do note that Dr. White's paper is yet to make it into print. It seems that being in the Articles in Advance of JOPP is maybe as far as it will go.

Will confirm that 50g at 100W or approx 5N/kW has been achieved. Working to increase that by 10x with an ultimate goal of 100-200N/kW (10-20kgf/kW) without using cryo cooling or superconducting cavities.

Can share that the number of transits of the dual travelling waves (really photon wavelets) is the driver and not the Q, which while important, is really just one of the factors that determines the number of transits.

Q is directly correlated with the number of times the photon transits back and forth yet it seems you imply Q is not important.  I want to argue that what you might be saying is that the number of stored photons is more important than Q.  So stored energy.  This implies more power or energy per sec or larger cavities. 

If Q isn't important then you might agree that increased energy lost to something else would reduce the Q?

Do you have any experimental evidence you could share with is that might indicate cavity specs, energy fed, in what manner, and with indication of resulting forces?  Images also perhaps?
Follow the science? What is science with out the truth.  If there is no truth in it it is not science.  Truth is found by open discussion and rehashing facts not those that moderate it to fit their agenda.  In the end the truth speaks for itself.  Beware the strong delusion and lies mentioned in 2ndThesalonians2:11.  The last stage of Babylon is transhumanism.  Clay mingled with iron (flesh mingled with machine).  MK ultra out of control.  Consider bill gates patent 202060606 (666), that hacks the humans to make their brains crunch C R Y P T O. Are humans hackable animals or are they protected like when Jesus cast out the legion?

Offline Bob Woods

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For folks on this thread, a human interest story about a young man who graduated today with a degree in Physics - at age 15:

'Harter’s college thesis, “Implications of the Nambu Jona Lasinio Model with a New
Regularization Renormalization Method,” discusses his work with Professor Guang Jiong Ni to extend an existing model that describes the interactions between subatomic particles. The aim is to bring the model to the point where it would generate specific quantitative results to measure the mass created by two massless particles.'

http://itmakesmecrazy.hardinwoods.com/2017/06/momentum-on-side-of-15-year-old-physics.html


Offline TheTraveller

Now, if only TT would throw in some video of his "amazing results", a lot of us would be happy campers, no?

There is a paper and patent in the works. Do hope the paper will make it through peer review, via the same journal as Dr. White used. Do note that Dr. White's paper is yet to make it into print. It seems that being in the Articles in Advance of JOPP is maybe as far as it will go.

Will confirm that 50g at 100W or approx 5N/kW has been achieved. Working to increase that by 10x with an ultimate goal of 100-200N/kW (10-20kgf/kW) without using cryo cooling or superconducting cavities.

Can share that the number of transits of the dual travelling waves (really photon wavelets) is the driver and not the Q, which while important, is really just one of the factors that determines the number of transits.

Q is directly correlated with the number of times the photon transits back and forth yet it seems you imply Q is not important.  I want to argue that what you might be saying is that the number of stored photons is more important than Q.  So stored energy.  This implies more power or energy per sec or larger cavities. 

If Q isn't important then you might agree that increased energy lost to something else would reduce the Q?

Do you have any experimental evidence you could share with is that might indicate cavity specs, energy fed, in what manner, and with indication of resulting forces?  Images also perhaps?

The Q is important as it sets the 5xTC decay time that sets the life time of the trapped photon wavelets.

HOWEVER Q and number of transits, end plate adsorb and emit events, are not directly related.

What I have discovered is it is better to go for high Q via using a larger big end plate diameter than in lengthening the cavity. Ie a TE019 cavity has higher Q but lower number of transits over the 5xTC decay time and lower thrust vs a TE013 lower Q but higher number of transits cavity.

My work is now focused on TE011 cavities with big end plates as the modelling shows they can deliver higher Q and higher number of transits.

Have yet to build a TE011 spherical end plate cavity as building the highly curved small and big end plates to a optical tolerance of 1/10 wave accuracy is not an easy nor low cost task.

You might notice this design is similar to Roger's cryo cavity. It seems I'm still a few steps behind him in evolving the design.
« Last Edit: 06/18/2017 11:52 pm by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline Chrochne

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Do we have technical drawing of the 3G patent (third generation) Mr. Shawyer mentioned in his presentation please? I found only the 2G (second generation).

I wonder how Mr. Shawyer overcame that High Q acceleration problem.

According to common sources Internal Doppler shift was observed by using photonic crystal. Is it possible that they found out way how to modify this photonic crystal for the specific photonic waves? I would love to  read some scientific articles about it.
« Last Edit: 06/19/2017 07:17 am by Chrochne »

Offline Flyby

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If you consider the drawing "superconductive cavity with piezoelectric compensation" as a 2.0 EMdrive (as seen in TT's post, last image) design, then I can say that not so long ago, a new drawing surfaced with an YBCO on safire substrate on big end and special shaped small end (was not parabolic, to mu surprise).
Also new to this design is the relocation of the RF feed to the centre of small end and use of a helicoidal antenna. Also to be noted is that the supercooling only happens on the big end of the fustrum.

If that is to be considered a 3.0 design (?), that's something only R.Shawyer can answer...

If not, then he'll need to explain where the difference or evolution is to be observed between 2.0 and 3.0....

(attached is the 3.0 ?)
« Last Edit: 06/19/2017 06:47 am by Flyby »

Offline dustinthewind

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HOWEVER Q and number of transits, end plate adsorb and emit events, are not directly related.


Sorry, proportional to.
Follow the science? What is science with out the truth.  If there is no truth in it it is not science.  Truth is found by open discussion and rehashing facts not those that moderate it to fit their agenda.  In the end the truth speaks for itself.  Beware the strong delusion and lies mentioned in 2ndThesalonians2:11.  The last stage of Babylon is transhumanism.  Clay mingled with iron (flesh mingled with machine).  MK ultra out of control.  Consider bill gates patent 202060606 (666), that hacks the humans to make their brains crunch C R Y P T O. Are humans hackable animals or are they protected like when Jesus cast out the legion?

Offline Chrochne

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If you consider the drawing "superconductive cavity with piezoelectric compensation" as a 2.0 EMdrive (as seen in TT's post, last image) design, then I can say that not so long ago, a new drawing surfaced with an YBCO on safire substrate on big end and special shaped small end (was not parabolic, to mu surprise).
Also new to this design is the relocation of the RF feed to the centre of small end and use of a helicoidal antenna. Also to be noted is that the supercooling only happens on the big end of the fustrum.

If that is to be considered a 3.0 design (?), that's something only R.Shawyer can answer...

If not, then he'll need to explain where the difference or evolution is to be observed between 2.0 and 3.0....

(attached is the 3.0 ?)

Exactly my toughts Flyby. I think this is 2G (second generation)

Link for the PDF is here.

https://www.ipo.gov.uk/p-find-publication-getPDF.pdf?PatentNo=GB2537119&DocType=A&JournalNumber=6647

Mr. Phil - can you ask Mr. Shawyer about the 3G (third generation) EmDrive? Can he share some technical drawing or not yet? 3rd generation will have very important aspect in it. It is how they overcame that High Q acceleration problem. It is crucial to compare then 2nd generation and 3rd generation desing / technical drawing.

Mod: Flyby. I think you are correct and this can be 3rd generation. The date would suggest it. As Mr. Shawyer wrote that in 2014 Jan it was in theoretical stage. Date of filling of the patent is 7.4.2015.

Also there is a lot of mentions of that High Q problem.
« Last Edit: 06/19/2017 09:30 am by Chrochne »

Offline Flyby

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Btw, I found a pdf version of Shawyer's powerpoint presentation.(more convenient maybe?)
http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Shrivenham-presentation-V.3.pdf

Note that the presentation was held on February 7th 2017.
So why the huge time delay?

And let's stay honest, apart from the new image (potentially Yang's device) , nothing world shocking was revealed in this document.
In all honesty, I found it a bit underwhelming : a lot of hot air and very little beef.

So...Really? Is that supposed to impress the UK military ????

Somebody really has to assist Shawyer with marketing strategies, cause a first year marketing student would get an F for such a presentation...
« Last Edit: 06/19/2017 08:01 am by Flyby »

Offline Chrochne

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Btw, I found a pdf version of Shawyer's powerpoint presentation.(more convenient maybe?)
http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Shrivenham-presentation-V.3.pdf

Note that the presentation was held on February 7th 2017.
So why the huge time delay?

And let's stay honest, apart from the new image (potentially Yang's device) , nothing world shocking was revealed in this document.
In all honesty, I found it a bit underwhelming : a lot of hot air and very little beef.

So...Really? Is that supposed to impress the UK military ????

Somebody really has to assist Shawyer with marketing strategies, cause a first year marketing student would get an F for such a presentation...

Mr. Shawyer is under strict NDA and it got even worse lately. It got worse with the information release since his start of the cooperation with the Gilo Industries.
I know that most of the interviews need approval of military first and they usualy scrap quite a lot of information he provides there. Yes, it is depressing, that we are not able to aquire more information.  :(


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