Author Topic: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo  (Read 12978 times)

Offline Skyrocket

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Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« on: 07/30/2007 03:52 PM »
Hi,

i stumbled recently upon this photo of a Tsiklon launch:
http://www.yuzhmash.com/ksm/p_ksm_en_1_2.htm

It is title "Tsiklon-3", but looks like a "Tsiklon-2". But Tsiklon-2 were only launched from Baikonur, but the trees is the background clearly indicate a Plesetsk launch - but there only Tsiklon-3 were launched.

Can anyone shed a little light on this riddle?


Offline Jester

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #1 on: 07/30/2007 05:15 PM »
I'll add to the confusion:

The picture indeed seems to be a Tsyklon 2 from Plesetsk

however, from the shape of the upper stage it looks like a Tsyklon M which is also sometimes refered to as Tsyklon 3

Offline Jester

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #2 on: 07/30/2007 05:55 PM »
.

Offline Skyrocket

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #3 on: 07/30/2007 09:13 PM »
Might it be either a Tsiklon-2 or a Tsiklon-M (which i think is the same as the Tsiklon-2), the problem is to find a payload, which could be launched by a two stage Tsiklon from Plesetsk.


Offline Jester

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #4 on: 07/30/2007 09:28 PM »
This might help:

Check this page (picture on the right and M variant in the table under 3)
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/tsyklon.html

Offline Skyrocket

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #5 on: 07/31/2007 08:23 AM »
Concerning the "Tsiklon-M" there is some confusion, as it is attiributed to both the Tsiklon-2 and Tsiklon-3 lauchers
There are three versions of the Tsiklon rocket (or four, if we count the R-36-O FOBS launcher):

8K69 = R-36-O
11K67 = Tsiklon-2A
11K68 = Tsiklon-3
11K69 = Tsiklon-2

As in all lists Tsiklon-3 launches are the only, which took place from Plesetsk, at least one of these is a Tsiklon-2 version.
Tsiklon-3 list: http://www.skyrocket.de/space/doc_lau_det/tsiklon-3.htm
But none of the payloads is in an orbit, which could be reached by a two stage version.

Perhaps the image is indeed a Tsiklon-3 with a smaller diameter fairing. Does anyone know the diameter of the S5M upper stage of the Tsiklon-3 upper stage.


Offline Skyrocket

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #6 on: 07/31/2007 08:48 AM »
If i compare the image of real Tsiklon-2 launch ( http://www.cosmoworld.ru/spacehistory/photos/tsiklon.jpg ) and the ominous Plesetsk launch ( http://www.yuzhmash.com/__img/CIKLON00.gif ) i notice, that the base of the payload fairing is different and slightly widened. This could perhaps be to accomodate the wider base of the S5M stage ( http://www.yuzhnoye.com/Aerospace%20Technology/Launch%20Vehicles/Cyclone/Cyclone%203/PGcyclone3_sm_r.jpg )


Offline Jester

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #7 on: 08/01/2007 01:40 PM »
Quote
Skyrocket - 31/7/2007  10:48 AM

If i compare the image of real Tsiklon-2 launch ( http://www.cosmoworld.ru/spacehistory/photos/tsiklon.jpg ) and the ominous Plesetsk launch ( http://www.yuzhmash.com/__img/CIKLON00.gif ) i notice, that the base of the payload fairing is different and slightly widened. This could perhaps be to accomodate the wider base of the S5M stage ( http://www.yuzhnoye.com/Aerospace%20Technology/Launch%20Vehicles/Cyclone/Cyclone%203/PGcyclone3_sm_r.jpg )


Could be, but to add the to confusion, the M version appartently was declassified at a later time then the other, could it be some sort of test launch ?
have you tried to contact yuzhmash and ask them about the picture ? (i know it's a long shot, but you never know)

Offline Skyrocket

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #8 on: 08/01/2007 01:48 PM »
Quote
Jester - 1/8/2007  3:40 PM

Could be, but to add the to confusion, the M version appartently was declassified at a later time then the other, could it be some sort of test launch ?

As far as i know, there is no Tsiklon-M designation. There are only the 8K69, 11K67, 11K68 and
11K69 versions. The Tsiklon name was assigned much later (iirc in the 80ies). In case of the 11K67, which got the designation Tsiklon-2A it was long after the version has been retired.

Quote
Jester - 1/8/2007  3:40 PM
have you tried to contact yuzhmash and ask them about the picture ? (i know it's a long shot, but you never know)

Yes, but unfortunately without replies.


Offline Jester

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #9 on: 08/01/2007 02:26 PM »
uhmm, i think we are at a dead end here, we know for sure that the image is Plesetsk.
so either, the image is photoshopped (which i hightly doubt) or somebody isn't telling the truth about what has been launched from Plesetsk

maybe ask anik if there is another source of a Plesetsk launch log and compair with what you have ?

Online edkyle99

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #10 on: 08/01/2007 03:11 PM »
The first two or three Tsyklon 3 launches reportedly carried "dummy" payloads, and one or two were thought to have reached improper orbits.  I wonder if, maybe, some of these initial test flights, in 1977, might have flown without a full-up three-stage launch vehicle, or were at least performed by an interim version of the final Tsyklon 3 launch vehicle.

I also wonder if we might be seeing an optical illusion here, since we are used to seeing Tsyklon 3 in a more colorful form.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Cyclone-3_rocket_launching_Meteor-3_satellite.gif

 - Ed Kyle

Online edkyle99

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #11 on: 08/01/2007 03:44 PM »
Another possibility is that our old Soviet friends played a trick during the early Tsyklon 3 era by doing a bit of airbrushing.  Consider the original image shown at:

http://www.esa.int/images/tsyclon_4_l.jpg

Here is a blow up of the payload fairing area.  I find it interesting that the base of the hammerhead section is *wider* than the rest!

Since Tsyklon 3 was a new launcher for classified sigints, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the Soviets had tried to obfuscate the payload fairing width during the early years.

 - Ed Kyle


Offline Skyrocket

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #12 on: 08/01/2007 03:45 PM »
Quote
edkyle99 - 1/8/2007  5:11 PM

I also wonder if we might be seeing an optical illusion here, since we are used to seeing Tsyklon 3 in a more colorful form.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Cyclone-3_rocket_launching_Meteor-3_satellite.gif

 - Ed Kyle

I do not think so. A standard Tsiklon-3 in white painting looks different to the ominous version:

http://www.icfcst.kiev.ua/museum/PHOTOS/Tsiklon.jpg


Offline Skyrocket

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #13 on: 08/01/2007 03:49 PM »
Quote
edkyle99 - 1/8/2007  5:44 PM

Another possibility is that our old Soviet friends played a trick during the early Tsyklon 3 era by doing a bit of airbrushing.  Consider the original image shown at:

http://www.esa.int/images/tsyclon_4_l.jpg

Here is a blow up of the payload fairing area.  I find it interesting that the base of the hammerhead section is *wider* than the rest!

 - Ed Kyle


I do not think it is photoshopped. Compare the wider section with the wider lower part of the S5M uppertage of the Tsiklon-3 in this drawing:
http://www.yuzhnoye.com/Aerospace%20Technology/Launch%20Vehicles/Cyclone/Cyclone%203/PGcyclone3_sm_r.jpg

I think it IS a Tsiklon-3, but with the smaller fairing of the Tsiklon-2.

Offline publiusr

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #14 on: 08/10/2007 04:39 PM »
Did the FOBs carry a smaller warhead?

 I would think the big 18-25 MT "City Buster" nuke was so heavy that it would demand a standard trajectory.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #15 on: 08/12/2007 03:14 PM »
No FOBS vehicle was ever launched from Plesetsk, so the photo isn't of FOBS.

Offline Skyrocket

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #16 on: 08/16/2007 08:20 AM »
Quote
Danderman - 12/8/2007  5:14 PM

No FOBS vehicle was ever launched from Plesetsk, so the photo isn't of FOBS.

By the way, the R-36-O, which launched the "FOBS" (OGCh) satellite-warheads looked completly different:

http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_lau_det/r-36-o.htm


Offline Nicolas PILLET

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #17 on: 11/02/2008 09:26 AM »
Excuse me for being a little late in this discussion !

In my opinion, this picture shows a Tsiklone-3 rocket with a different fairing. It wouldn't be the first time the Russians do that (example : Cosmos-3M with Sar Lupe fairings)...
« Last Edit: 11/02/2008 09:29 AM by Nicolas PILLET »
Nicolas PILLET
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Offline yaroslav

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #18 on: 11/07/2008 09:32 AM »
i don't think so, fairing covers 3rd stage too, so it should be bigger anyway

Головной обтекатель == fairing
Космический аппарат == spacecraft
Приборный отсек, Топливный отсек, Маршевый двигатель РД-251 == avionics, fuel tanks, engine == 3rd stage



Offline Nicolas PILLET

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #19 on: 11/14/2008 05:06 PM »
PROBLEM RESOLVED !!!!!!!!!!

This picture is Photoshopped !!

Look at this picture of the Intercosmos 25 launch, in december 1991.
Nicolas PILLET
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Offline Nicolas PILLET

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Re: Irritating Tsiklon launch photo
« Reply #20 on: 12/04/2008 04:35 PM »
Big update on my website : a story of the Tsyklon launchers.

http://www.kosmonavtika.com/lanceurs/tsiklone/tsiklone.html

It is in French, but I think many of you would be interested by the pictures of the facilities it includes.
Nicolas PILLET
Kosmonavtika : The French site on Russian Space

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