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Commercial and US Government Launch Vehicles => Commercial Space Flight General => Topic started by: Guardian700 on 10/28/2017 06:43 AM

Title: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Guardian700 on 10/28/2017 06:43 AM
Hello all lovers of astronautics. The table below is in great demand among the Russian-speaking segment of the Internet. In the English-speaking segment, I did not find anything like this, so I decided to translate it.

https://aboutspacejornal.net/2017/09/21/comparative-cost-of-launching-payloads-into-space-on-different-launch-systems/

If you find errors or inaccuracies in the translation or numbers, write, I will correct
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: SmallKing on 10/28/2017 08:29 AM
A insider once said in the Chinese forum that the cost of CZ5 would be slightly higher than one billion yuan(~150 million dollars)
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Guardian700 on 10/28/2017 08:57 AM
A insider once said in the Chinese forum that the cost of CZ5 would be slightly higher than one billion yuan(~150 million dollars)

Done, thank you!
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: ringsider on 10/28/2017 10:25 AM
Hello all lovers of astronautics. The table below is in great demand among the Russian-speaking segment of the Internet. In the English-speaking segment, I did not find anything like this, so I decided to translate it.

https://aboutspacejornal.net/2017/09/21/comparative-cost-of-launching-payloads-into-space-on-different-launch-systems/

If you find errors or inaccuracies in the translation or numbers, write, I will correct

I don't think Vega is 5m dollars. More like $35m.
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Guardian700 on 10/28/2017 12:05 PM
I don't think Vega is 5m dollars. More like $35m.

Done, many thanks! In the Russian version of Wikipedia was a mistake - fixed.
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: SmallKing on 10/28/2017 02:36 PM
A lot of date was inaccurate I thought. The cost of Soyuz-2 is higher than Falcon9s, and the baseline of Atlas-5 is 109M
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: SmallKing on 10/28/2017 02:41 PM
Here some old data for reference
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Guardian700 on 10/28/2017 02:44 PM
A lot of date was inaccurate I thought. The cost of Soyuz-2 is higher than Falcon9s, and the baseline of Atlas-5 is 109M

I don't think that Soyuz-2 is more expensive than Falcon, but pay attention for what year prices. Where did the information about Atlas V?

Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: SmallKing on 10/28/2017 02:50 PM
A lot of date was inaccurate I thought. The cost of Soyuz-2 is higher than Falcon9s, and the baseline of Atlas-5 is 109M

I don't think that Soyuz-2 is more expensive than Falcon, but pay attention for what year prices. Where did the information about Atlas V?
https://www.rocketbuilder.com/start/configure
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: SmallKing on 10/28/2017 02:53 PM
A lot of date was inaccurate I thought. The cost of Soyuz-2 is higher than Falcon9s, and the baseline of Atlas-5 is 109M

I don't think that Soyuz-2 is more expensive than Falcon, but pay attention for what year prices. Where did the information about Atlas V?
Quote
Five Soyuz rocket launches and associated services were valued at 397 million euros, according to the commission's contract announcement in January. The launch price was higher than Galileo officials expected, complicating the already-mounting budget trouble.
https://spaceflightnow.com/news/n1007/07galileo/
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Guardian700 on 10/28/2017 03:26 PM
A lot of date was inaccurate I thought. The cost of Soyuz-2 is higher than Falcon9s, and the baseline of Atlas-5 is 109M
Quote
Five Soyuz rocket launches and associated services were valued at 397 million euros, according to the commission's contract announcement in January. The launch price was higher than Galileo officials expected, complicating the already-mounting budget trouble.
https://spaceflightnow.com/news/n1007/07galileo/

It's about Souz-ST 80 million. Launch from the Guiana Space Centre in French Guiana. This is the Europeans are launching, for them is more expensive ...
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Guardian700 on 10/28/2017 03:31 PM
A lot of date was inaccurate I thought. The cost of Soyuz-2 is higher than Falcon9s, and the baseline of Atlas-5 is 109M

I don't think that Soyuz-2 is more expensive than Falcon, but pay attention for what year prices. Where did the information about Atlas V?
https://www.rocketbuilder.com/start/configure

Depending on the modification
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Guardian700 on 10/29/2017 03:13 AM
A lot of date was inaccurate I thought. The cost of Soyuz-2 is higher than Falcon9s, and the baseline of Atlas-5 is 109M

I don't think that Soyuz-2 is more expensive than Falcon, but pay attention for what year prices. Where did the information about Atlas V?
https://www.rocketbuilder.com/start/configure

Many thanks, after played with RocketBuilder, changed the values for Atlas V
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Guardian700 on 11/03/2017 04:26 AM
Added a new launch vehicle - "Minotaur-C" with the cost of launching
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Guardian700 on 11/11/2017 02:36 AM
Hi! On November 14, launch of the Delta II and the satellite JPSS 1, so adding Delta II to the table. But unfortunately found the cost of launch only for 2009. If someone has a new information, please write.
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: gongora on 11/11/2017 02:42 AM
Hi! On November 14, launch of the Delta II and the satellite JPSS 1, so adding Delta II to the table. But unfortunately found the cost of launch only for 2009. If someone has a new information, please write.

There won't be any more Delta II rockets made (this is the next to last one).
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Guardian700 on 11/11/2017 04:01 AM
There won't be any more Delta II rockets made (this is the next to last one).

I thought that they were no longer being run ... Let's see


Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: rayleighscatter on 11/12/2017 12:48 PM
There's a US government report online from last summer that has two charts with prices for commercially available rockets. The first chart is on page 22, the second chart is on page 30.

http://www.gao.gov/assets/690/686613.pdf

Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Guardian700 on 11/13/2017 02:27 AM
There's a US government report online from last summer that has two charts with prices for commercially available rockets. The first chart is on page 22, the second chart is on page 30.

http://www.gao.gov/assets/690/686613.pdf

Many thanks!!! Changed!
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Zed_Noir on 11/13/2017 09:35 PM
There's a US government report online from last summer that has two charts with prices for commercially available rockets. The first chart is on page 22, the second chart is on page 30.

http://www.gao.gov/assets/690/686613.pdf

Many thanks!!! Changed!

There is a typo in the first chart (table 4). It is $2684 per kg, not $2864 per kg for the Falcon 9. According to @LouScheffer.

Quote from: LouScheffer
It's even better than it looks - there's a typo in the table.   The SpaceX entry should be 2684 $/kg, not 2864.

This is immediately clear when you ask how Proton can be comparable.  They payload is 23,000 vs 22,800, or about 1% more.  But the cost is more than 1% higher.  So at least one of the numbers must be wrong, and it's SpaceX.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42617.msg1714471#msg1714471 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42617.msg1714471#msg1714471)
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Guardian700 on 11/14/2017 03:01 AM

There is a typo in the first chart (table 4). It is $2684 per kg, not $2864 per kg for the Falcon 9. According to @LouScheffer.

Quote from: LouScheffer
It's even better than it looks - there's a typo in the table.   The SpaceX entry should be 2684 $/kg, not 2864.

This is immediately clear when you ask how Proton can be comparable.  They payload is 23,000 vs 22,800, or about 1% more.  But the cost is more than 1% higher.  So at least one of the numbers must be wrong, and it's SpaceX.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42617.msg1714471#msg1714471 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42617.msg1714471#msg1714471)

Before I change, who is LouScheffer? And why does he think so?
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: LouScheffer on 11/14/2017 04:13 AM

There is a typo in the first chart (table 4). It is $2684 per kg, not $2864 per kg for the Falcon 9. According to @LouScheffer.

Quote from: LouScheffer
It's even better than it looks - there's a typo in the table.   The SpaceX entry should be 2684 $/kg, not 2864.

This is immediately clear when you ask how Proton can be comparable.  They payload is 23,000 vs 22,800, or about 1% more.  But the cost is more than 1% higher.  So at least one of the numbers must be wrong, and it's SpaceX.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42617.msg1714471#msg1714471 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42617.msg1714471#msg1714471)

Before I change, who is LouScheffer? And why does he think so?

No need for reputation here.  The table itself has all the data.  The cost is 61.2 million.  The payload is 22,800 kg.   That gives a cost of $2684/kg.   But the cost per kg entry, on the same line, says $2864.   Seems pretty clear this is just a typo, since your calculator can show you that $2684 is the correct value.
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Guardian700 on 11/14/2017 05:29 PM

No need for reputation here.  The table itself has all the data.  The cost is 61.2 million.  The payload is 22,800 kg.   That gives a cost of $2684/kg.   But the cost per kg entry, on the same line, says $2864.   Seems pretty clear this is just a typo, since your calculator can show you that $2684 is the correct value.

You're right, thanks - changed
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: john smith 19 on 11/16/2017 03:25 PM
There's a US government report online from last summer that has two charts with prices for commercially available rockets. The first chart is on page 22, the second chart is on page 30.

http://www.gao.gov/assets/690/686613.pdf
The actual physical pages are 27 and 35 respectively.

It's quite a range of $/Kg of mass, with over a decade in range. 
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Guardian700 on 11/18/2017 06:57 PM

The actual physical pages are 27 and 35 respectively.

It's quite a range of $/Kg of mass, with over a decade in range.

Better than nothing
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: john smith 19 on 11/18/2017 08:58 PM
Better than nothing
It's a start.
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Rik ISS-fan on 12/15/2017 10:21 AM
I think this NASA presentation contains a lot of relevant info for this topic:
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20170009968.pdf (https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20170009968.pdf)
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Davidthefat on 12/15/2017 07:11 PM
Just a question: why is price per kg the most quoted criteria regarding prices of launch?

When contracting a launch, you don't say "we only take up 50% of your mass capabilities, we will only pay 50% of the launch". You pay for a launch, unless you do some ride share mission. Launches have fixed costs, and potentially NRE costs for different payload interface structures (if multiple payloads were on flight)

Also generally payloads do not get up to the 80% to 100% capacity range of the launch vehicles; you would actually be paying a much higher $/kg on those missions.

edit: I feel like it's akin to buying a sedan vs an SUV/Minivan. The SUV/Minivan may cost $38k vas $26k of a sedan, but the SUV holds 7 people. You are saying "I'm paying $5.4k per person with a SUV vs $6.5k for a sedan" even though you only carry 4 people.
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: e of pi on 12/15/2017 07:50 PM
Just a question: why is price per kg the most quoted criteria regarding prices of launch?

When contracting a launch, you don't say "we only take up 50% of your mass capabilities, we will only pay 50% of the launch". You pay for a launch, unless you do some ride share mission. Launches have fixed costs, and potentially NRE costs for different payload interface structures (if multiple payloads were on flight)

Also generally payloads do not get up to the 80% to 100% capacity range of the launch vehicles; you would actually be paying a much higher $/kg on those missions.

edit: I feel like it's akin to buying a sedan vs an SUV/Minivan. The SUV/Minivan may cost $38k vas $26k of a sedan, but the SUV holds 7 people. You are saying "I'm paying $5.4k per person with a SUV vs $6.5k for a sedan" even though you only carry 4 people.
Obviously, $/kg is a simplified figure: it's one number, it could hardly ever be anything other than simplified. The benefit is the ability to compare product offerings or design approaches across a wide variety of sizes without having to stick a caveat of payload or capability on each one. The selection of a specific launcher for a specific mission doesn't just boil down to a comparison of $/kg between the launchers that are considered, but it can inform discussion to look at it when we want to compare broader categories of vehicles.

If a specific category of rockets (e.g. smallsat launchers like Pegasus or Electron have a significantly higher $/kg than larger vehicles (say, those with payloads >4 tons), which explains why multiple launching on larger vehicles is preferable for cubesats or smaller satellites like Orbcomm when conditions can allow sharing. If a specific manufacturer or vehicle production approach yields lower or higher $/kg across the board, then it offers a start to asking "what are they doing right/wrong?" and a basis for suggesting what LVs might exist in the future.

In your car example, I could say that $38k SUV is pricier per capacity. If I look at other vehicles in the automaker's line and they also have a higher $/passenger than the sedan manufacturer across their other vehicles, then I can say that if they ever made a sedan, it might also be pricer.
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Guardian700 on 12/26/2017 03:13 AM
Added a new launch vehicles: «Zenit-3SLB», «Zenit-3F» («Zenit-2SB»)
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: john smith 19 on 12/26/2017 07:16 AM
I think this NASA presentation contains a lot of relevant info for this topic:
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20170009968.pdf (https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20170009968.pdf)
Interesting.

Zapata has been involved in identifying the drivers for launch costs since at least the mid 90's and (I think) the mid 80's.

It's interesting that the Pegasus still seems the only option that's actually available for primary launches in the in 100s of Kg despite the highest $/Kg. It's a very expensive launcher for not much payload. Another interesting point is that for Atlas 401 and how reasonably priced they are.


Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: john smith 19 on 12/26/2017 07:24 AM
Just a question: why is price per kg the most quoted criteria regarding prices of launch?
It's a fair question and the answer is it does give a single metric across the whole range of LV's.

But you're right, you don't buy lift by the lb or Kg, you buy by the launch.

The other issue is a small LV simply can't carry the load, in the same way a car can't tow a 40ft container. If you want that you need an 18 wheeler.

A more subtle point is those prices only apply to full loads. Musk has talked of sub 1000$/lb for FH launches provided there are more than 4 a year and they are fully loaded IE to 50+tonnes, suggesting multiple ride shares will be needed if people actually want to get that low a price per Kg to orbit.
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: AncientU on 12/30/2017 02:53 PM
Just a question: why is price per kg the most quoted criteria regarding prices of launch?
It's a fair question and the answer is it does give a single metric across the whole range of LV's.

But you're right, you don't buy lift by the lb or Kg, you buy by the launch.

The other issue is a small LV simply can't carry the load, in the same way a car can't tow a 40ft container. If you want that you need an 18 wheeler.

A more subtle point is those prices only apply to full loads. Musk has talked of sub 1000$/lb for FH launches provided there are more than 4 a year and they are fully loaded IE to 50+tonnes, suggesting multiple ride shares will be needed if people actually want to get that low a price per Kg to orbit.

Not true.  Your thinking is somewhat stuck in the historical launch market paradigm... somewhat self-perpetuating if no one builds a drastically cheaper launch technology.

Blue Origin's New Glenn launching 400 OneWeb sats in 5 launches is the type of commodity payload that can use bulk capacity (modulo packing factor/volume limitations).  Fuel deliveries to LEO is another. 
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Guardian700 on 01/05/2018 02:38 AM
Long March-3C and prices for Long March-7 & «Ariane-6» added.
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Guardian700 on 01/17/2018 03:19 AM
Price for «Epsilon» added
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Kosmos2001 on 01/17/2018 08:34 AM
Dear Guardian700, is it possible to make the boxes wider? It is somehow laborious to read sometimes. Good work, btw. ;)
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Guardian700 on 01/18/2018 03:38 AM
Dear Guardian700, is it possible to make the boxes wider? It is somehow laborious to read sometimes. Good work, btw. ;)

Many thanks. The width is only 900 px max. There is no place to expand, unfortunately ... :(
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Arb on 01/21/2018 10:07 PM
Dear Guardian700, is it possible to make the boxes wider? It is somehow laborious to read sometimes. Good work, btw. ;)

Many thanks. The width is only 900 px max. There is no place to expand, unfortunately ... :(

Agreed with Kosmos2001. Also, why the limit?
Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: Guardian700 on 01/29/2018 03:12 AM
Agreed with Kosmos2001. Also, why the limit?

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Title: Re: Comparative cost of launching payloads into space on different launch systems
Post by: whatever11235 on 01/29/2018 06:34 PM
50% of page for ads is way too much.