Author Topic: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level  (Read 5677 times)

Offline NUAETIUS

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Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« on: 04/21/2009 03:10 PM »
I have done a search here, and on google, but I can find no official information, or well informed speculation on this topic (some banter though). 

Considering the report just released by the Aerospace Corporation stating that The Delta and Atlas heavy's can carry Orion, are their designs that have been released by ULA for a Direct/Ares V class evolution of the Atlas/Delta families of rockets? 
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Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #1 on: 04/21/2009 04:02 PM »

Google Atlas Evolved and Atlas Phase 2 there are several threads on this the growth paths for Delta IV and Atlas V on NSF.
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Offline Nick L.

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #2 on: 04/21/2009 05:05 PM »
Atlas has the Phase 2 which has been extensively discussed.

For Delta IV I remember seeing some allusions to a theoretical 7-CBC cluster with crossfeeding and Al-Li (among other things) which produces a very nice performance boost. Also I saw a graphic depicting a "next generation Delta" which supposedly had Saturn-V type performance. I suspect that was "back-of-the-envelope" type preliminary analysis though.
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Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #3 on: 04/21/2009 06:05 PM »
ULA paper on Atlas growth options :

http://ulalaunch.com/docs/publications/Atlas/Evolved_Atlas_To_Meet_Space_Transportation_Needs_2005-6815.pdf

Not seeing the old Boeing Paper on Delta growth options. Maybe Ed has it tucked away.

Edit : Did find some growth options on the ULA product card for the Delta IV

http://ulalaunch.com/docs/product_sheet/DeltaIVProductCardFinal.pdf
« Last Edit: 04/21/2009 06:09 PM by kevin-rf »
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Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #4 on: 04/22/2009 04:57 AM »
THis is just my own opinion, but I think that adding a new upperstage to either lv with a J-2X would be a preferred option (to maintain jobs and infrastructure from Ares in Huntsville) and would be a large boost, anyone run numbers of Atlas V( 1 or 2) or Delta IV with a J-2x powered upperstage?
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Offline Jim

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #5 on: 04/22/2009 11:40 AM »
THis is just my own opinion, but I think that adding a new upperstage to either lv with a J-2X would be a preferred option (to maintain jobs and infrastructure from Ares in Huntsville) and would be a large boost, anyone run numbers of Atlas V( 1 or 2) or Delta IV with a J-2x powered upperstage?

It is too big, too much thrust
Also and upperstage from HSV wouldn't work, the upperstage is to integral to the EELV, that is where the guidance and control systems are, the payload interface, the fairing attachment, etc

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #6 on: 04/22/2009 12:59 PM »

As part of the EELV growth options there are proposals (RL-10 based) for new uppers for both Atlas and Delta that would increase performance.

Both current EELV uppers are under powered and sized for EELV Heavy LEO missions. The J-2X might be the wrong engine but there are RL-10 options. They just need $$$ and a mission that has the $$$ and justification (... Cough .... Orion ... Cough ...)
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Offline Danny Dot

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #7 on: 04/22/2009 01:03 PM »

Both current EELV uppers are under powered and sized for EELV Heavy LEO missions. The J-2X might be the wrong engine but there are RL-10 options. They just need $$$ and a mission that has the $$$ and justification (... Cough .... Orion ... Cough ...)

Can you expand on this?  CxP is saying the current upper stages are not good for Orion to LOE, but you are saying they are sized for a heavy LOE mission -- and Orion is a heavy LOE mission.

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Offline ugordan

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #8 on: 04/22/2009 01:08 PM »
I imagine the delta-V split between a Heavy EELV and its upper stage is shifted toward the first stage more so it reduces gravity losses a relatively underpowered 2nd stage would otherwise have for LEO missions.

From the Atlas V User Guide for example it can be seen the Centaur has a significantly shorter burn to LEO in the Heavy variant than what it usually does.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #9 on: 04/22/2009 02:47 PM »

Can you expand on this?  CxP is saying the current upper stages are not good for Orion to LOE, but you are saying they are sized for a heavy LOE mission -- and Orion is a heavy LOE mission.

Danny Deger

I was saying they are undersized for LEO on a Heavy. Might just be a play on how the words came out in my above post. That or the cofee hasn't kicked in yet ;)

Search the forum on Wide Body Centaur (Atlas) and ACES (Delta). There where .pdf's posted on both proposals. I am sure some of the NSF pack rats have the .pdf's saved somewhere. Can one of them please repost the .pdf's on both WBC and ACES?

 
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Offline Danny Dot

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #10 on: 04/22/2009 03:24 PM »

Can you expand on this?  CxP is saying the current upper stages are not good for Orion to LOE, but you are saying they are sized for a heavy LOE mission -- and Orion is a heavy LOE mission.

Danny Deger

I was saying they are undersized for LEO on a Heavy. Might just be a play on how the words came out in my above post. That or the cofee hasn't kicked in yet ;)

snip


Thanks for the clarification.  This is what I thought.

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Offline ugordan

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #11 on: 04/22/2009 04:30 PM »
From the Atlas V User Guide for example it can be seen the Centaur has a significantly shorter burn to LEO in the Heavy variant than what it usually does.

I'm curious; did the mission profile make use of Dual Engine Centaur (DEC)? That could explain the difference.

I just checked the table with typical mission profiles and it doesn't specify that, but it does say it's a GSO transfer so probably a single engine Centaur and my assumption above is hence invalid.

Offline yinzer

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #12 on: 04/22/2009 07:05 PM »
From the Atlas V User Guide for example it can be seen the Centaur has a significantly shorter burn to LEO in the Heavy variant than what it usually does.

I'm curious; did the mission profile make use of Dual Engine Centaur (DEC)? That could explain the difference.

I just checked the table with typical mission profiles and it doesn't specify that, but it does say it's a GSO transfer so probably a single engine Centaur and my assumption above is hence invalid.

Think about it.

The Heavy has the same Centaur as the other Atlas 5 rockets, and is carrying much more payload.  The Centaur will have to burn longer to push the payload from LEO to GTO.  Therefore it cannot burn as long to get the payload from booster separation to LEO.  The booster stages have to get the Centaur and payload closer to LEO, which is accomplished by using three CCBs and throttling the center one down early in flight.
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Offline mmeijeri

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #13 on: 04/23/2009 03:29 AM »
Can one of them please repost the .pdf's on both WBC and ACES?

http://www.ulalaunch.com/docs/publications/Delta/The_Advanced_Cryogenic_Evolved_Stage_(ACES)_2006LeBar7454.pdf
http://www.ulalaunch.com/docs/publications/Atlas/Atlas_Centaur_Extensibility_to_Long-Duration_In-Space_Applications_2005-6738.pdf

The new name for WBC is apparently ICES - Integrated Common Evolved Stage. I haven't seen any papers on merging the two efforts, although I recall someone on NSF saying a new common upper stage for Atlas and Delta would use the Centaur design and manufacturing & materials of DCSS, since these are their respective strong points.
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Offline TrueGrit

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #14 on: 04/23/2009 04:24 AM »
Just a question for those thinking a J-2X...  Why would ULA invest such a huge cost into an engine that is a drag, litterly, to GTO-GSO?  Right now NASA has shuned ULA, disparaging its products at every turn, and the DoD market is for GTO-GSO satelittes.  I know this is NASASpaceFlight and thus focused on LEO...  But there seems to be distain for Delta IV and Atlas V being optimized for GTO-GSO mission.  Blame that on NASA for not providing a market for such capability.  Does it make sense for ULA to buddy up with a customer that spits its face, and turn our back on the one who they play basketball with on the weekend?

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #15 on: 04/23/2009 09:17 AM »
According to the link below, the name ACES is now used for a possible common upper stage for Atlas and Delta, combining the previous ACES and ICES efforts:

http://www.unitedlaunchalliance.com/docs/publications/ULA/ISS_Cargo_RFI_Final_09062007.pdf
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Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #16 on: 04/23/2009 09:43 AM »
If I recall correctly, the Atlas-V Phase 2 and the evolved Delta-IV both require new upper stages and new, wider-diameter CCBs.  In fact, although there is considerable component commonality, they are very much new LVs (I have started thinking of them as Atlas-VI and Delta-V). 

Given the amount of work needed to produce these 70-100t launchers, are there any bones that could be thrown to MSFC with regards to development and production of such new launchers? It might smooth things over with the honourable gentlemen for Alabama and Florida if this were not simply a boon to ULA's constituent companies and their workforces.
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Offline MKremer

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #17 on: 04/23/2009 11:09 AM »
Given the amount of work needed to produce these 70-100t launchers, are there any bones that could be thrown to MSFC with regards to development and production of such new launchers? It might smooth things over with the honourable gentlemen for Alabama and Florida if this were not simply a boon to ULA's constituent companies and their workforces.

I would guess "no". It would require giving up too much proprietary info from both companies to the gov't.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #18 on: 04/23/2009 12:54 PM »

Don't forget ULA has that new super state of the art production facility that boeing built when they thought they would be pumping EELVs out as fast as toyota pumps out cars. If "heavy lift" uses an ULA EELV growth option, it kinda argues against using MSFC. Unless the "heavy lift" is to big to build in that new plant.
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Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #19 on: 04/23/2009 01:00 PM »
Don't forget ULA has that new super state of the art production facility that boeing built when they thought they would be pumping EELVs out as fast as toyota pumps out cars.

Well, if Delta-IV gets the manned CLV mission, then they will be building, what, four D-IVH+ units per year? That on top of their commercial, NASA unmanned and DoD contracts.

I suppose that I was thinking something along the line of an 'exclusive' NASA EELV-HLV manned upper stage/EDS that can be designed at and built at Huntsville or something similar.
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Offline Jim

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Re: Delta or Atlas family evolved to HLV level
« Reply #20 on: 04/23/2009 01:14 PM »

1.  Well, if Delta-IV gets the manned CLV mission, then they will be building, what, four D-IVH+ units per year? That on top of their commercial, NASA unmanned and DoD contracts.

2.  I suppose that I was thinking something along the line of an 'exclusive' NASA EELV-HLV manned upper stage/EDS that can be designed at and built at Huntsville or something similar.

1.  The facility was sized for 40 boosters per year

2.  That would never happen.  EELV's are not going to used any upperstage that is done out of house.  Upperstages are too integral to the vehicle to be done separately
« Last Edit: 04/23/2009 01:15 PM by Jim »

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