Author Topic: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-181  (Read 118412 times)

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #140 on: 11/08/2014 12:56 am »
This should be fun. Someone pass the popcorn.
Before the age of rockets, movie theaters use to serve devil'd eggs instead of popcorn.
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Offline Jim

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #141 on: 11/08/2014 01:09 am »

I've spent my entire career running circles around guys like Jim...If he responds to my posts, I will respond to him.
I never run away from people like him...In the end they all go thump thump. Every one of them.

Running in circles means you are failing around and never got anywhere.  Also, the rest sounds like a bit of "unlimited arrogance".

And like I said, they are intuitively obvious, so you must want somebody to school you in the basics of launch vehicle integration.

Here are the reasons stated below, for those with "limited knowledge":

The Spacex facility isn't sited for solids
The erector is not designed to lift a loaded vehicle.
The erector is design for a vehicle with a constant diameter.
The solid stage is not compatible with the Falcon 9 fairing.
The cranes are not certified for solids nor likely have the lifting capability.
The GSE in the hangar is not sized to hold the solid stage nor designed for mating it to the first stage.
The empty launch vehicle is lifted as a whole onto the erector, the solid stage would put loads into the 1st stage.
The OSC stage avionics are not compatible with the Spacex booster avionics or launch control system.
The first stage gets additional structural strength by pressurization, this would not be available prior to erection and hence there may be issues with the stage supporting a loaded solid stage.

Like I said, it is a non starter.

I believe I just heard a "thump thump" and it wasn't me.
« Last Edit: 11/09/2014 11:30 am by Jim »

Offline nimbostratus

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #142 on: 11/08/2014 01:32 am »
Well since this article came out: http://spacenews.com/article/launch-report/42460orbital-to-accelerate-upgraded-antares-use-other-vehicles-for-cygnus

We know they are in talks with three companies.
Two in the US and one in Europe.
Since Athena and Rockot don't have the capability or cant upgrade on time I think it is safe to say that those companies are SpaceX (Falcon 9), ULA (Atlas V 401) and Arianespace (Soyuz ST).

Any arguments against this reasoning?

All would enable larger capacity than Antares and pricewise Falcon 9 would win just ahead of Soyuz and lagging quite far behind would be Atlas V 401. A though nut to crack, I don't know how eager they are to launch with F9 and if they go with Soyuz they should know that the Soyuz only has a limited amount of years that it will be flown from CSG. So they can't choose it as the default back-up for the remainder of the ISS cargo program, namely CRS-2.

My 50 cents, its going to be Soyuz nonetheless.

Do they have a fairing for Soyuz carrying Cygnus?

Soyuz 2 has a wide fairing.
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Offline MP99

Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #143 on: 11/08/2014 08:17 am »
Well since this article came out: http://spacenews.com/article/launch-report/42460orbital-to-accelerate-upgraded-antares-use-other-vehicles-for-cygnus

We know they are in talks with three companies.
Two in the US and one in Europe.
Since Athena and Rockot don't have the capability or cant upgrade on time I think it is safe to say that those companies are SpaceX (Falcon 9), ULA (Atlas V 401) and Arianespace (Soyuz ST).

Any arguments against this reasoning?

ULA can't sell to Orbital.

There are three possible US suppliers:-
LM - Atlas V
Boeing - Delta IV
SpaceX - Falcon 9

Cheers, Martin

Offline saliva_sweet

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #144 on: 11/08/2014 10:26 am »
ULA can't sell to Orbital.

I wonder if this is true anymore. Boeing and LM may have substantially revised the original ULA charter. A lot of the noises Bruno has been making are not compatible with it.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #145 on: 11/08/2014 03:47 pm »
ULA can't sell to Orbital.

I wonder if this is true anymore. Boeing and LM may have substantially revised the original ULA charter. A lot of the noises Bruno has been making are not compatible with it.
Only governmental flights can be sold and managed directly by ULA. Commercial flights are the responsibility of the original designer that deveoloped and flew their launcher before the creation of ULA. ULA will in turn be contracted for building the rocket and Launcher ops as well as some other areas. SC processing and checkout are managed by LM/Boeing according to the given contract instructions arranged by the customer. Jim is capable of providing additional details and corrections as I'm going off my memory of previous commercial flights.

Offline Jim

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #146 on: 11/08/2014 04:24 pm »
SC processing and checkout are managed by LM/Boeing according to the given contract instructions arranged by the customer.

Spacecraft processing and checkout are always managed by the customer. 
LM/Boeing only provide mission management for commercial missions

Offline watermod

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #147 on: 11/08/2014 07:23 pm »
Going back to my horsetrading argument only the other way around.
Are there currently scheduled Atlas flights for payloads that could be lifted by Falcon 9?
 
If so could one imagine one of them quickly transitioning to the Falcon core for the court halted Argentine launch thus freeing up an Atlas core for  Orbital?

Offline Antares

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #148 on: 11/08/2014 07:23 pm »
while it is manufactured in Russia, the RD-180 was designed by an American company

Who are you and what did you do with the real baldusi, who I always find to be accurate and logical?  RD-180 is 100% Russian designed and built.  70% of parts are common with 170.
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline baldusi

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #149 on: 11/09/2014 02:58 am »

while it is manufactured in Russia, the RD-180 was designed by an American company

Who are you and what did you do with the real baldusi, who I always find to be accurate and logical?  RD-180 is 100% Russian designed and built.  70% of parts are common with 170.
That's a partial quotation (in an unfortunate error I forgot one apostrophe). I was talking about the RD-180's TVC. Which I remember Jim stating it had been designed by an American company, but still produced by NPO Energomash. At least from the Intelsat-27 failure we know it's completely different TVC from the rD-171/M.

Offline Remes

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #150 on: 11/09/2014 04:56 am »
Which I remember Jim stating it had been designed by an American company, but still produced by NPO Energomash. At least from the Intelsat-27 failure we know it's completely different TVC from the rD-171/M.

Sounds strange to me. When AR looked into RD-180 they were not allowed to propose any enhancements, as that would violate ITAR. How would a US-company (given American company == US-company) design a TVC and would be allowed to export its design?

Offline Antares

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #151 on: 11/09/2014 05:42 am »
They're from Arsenal in St. Petersburg (not Florida).
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline Remes

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #152 on: 11/09/2014 06:55 am »
They're from Arsenal in St. Petersburg (not Florida).
and not England.  ;D

http://arsenal207.ru/projects.html

РУЛЕВОЙ ПРИВОД РП РД 180 - TVC RD-180, first picture.

I know, people who know, won't be allowed to comment, but my guess:
- Tripple redundant hydraulic actuator (accepting three command signals)
- Two LVDT for position feedback
- And even if it is here not visible, the cyclinder on the rod end is wired, so I assume there is a force measurement cell inside
- Most likely pressure sensors on A and B side

http://en.dfnc.ru/Steering-gears-for-rockets
Quote
“Arsenal -207” being headed by Mr.Vladimirov has upgraded steering gears for the RD170 liquid rocket engine in relation to a fundamental improvement of speed and dynamic characteristics required for development, certification and integration of the RD180 liquid rocket engine and has worked out the design documentation on a new steering gear for the RD180 liquid rocket engine that are used in the launch vehicle “Atlas” within the frame of an international collaboration of OJSC “NPO “Energomash” with Pratt & Whitney and Lockheed Martin (USA).

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #153 on: 11/09/2014 02:53 pm »
Looks like India may have an alternative to RD193.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32477.0

This would give Orbital an alternative engine in future if RD193 supply was cut off for political reasons. SCE 200 is not a domestic engine but relationships with India are a lot more stable.
« Last Edit: 11/09/2014 02:53 pm by TrevorMonty »

Offline Prober

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #154 on: 11/09/2014 02:53 pm »
I think RD193/RD181 would be a good choice, it gives the extra performance they need. Long term both the Angara and Soyuz may move to it as it is lighter and lower cost version of RD191.
It is somewhat offtopic here, because we focus on Antares, but Angara will not migrate to 193. They need the performance of 191 to hit the payload targets of the A5, which is the only thing their main customer (MoD) cares about. Do keep in mind that the transfer of production of RD-191 into Khrunichev is not officially cancelled. That is why 191 is kept separate from the rest of the "family". It is a package deal that can be moved between major organizations, while 193 and 181 are intended for continuation of in-house production at Energomash.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, the RD-191 has the design requirement of throttling to 30% and was optimized for the center core of the A5. Also, it has a TVC. The RD-193 was designed as a replacement of the NK-33 on the Soyuz-2.1v, which lacks an integrated TVC (it uses the RD-0110R vernier engine) and doesn't needs to throttle (at least not so much). And since the RD-191 needs to work both as a booster and a sustainer, it might have an expansion ratio different than a pure core engine.
From the POV of NPO Energomash, Americans like to use American designed TVC on Russian engines (while it is manufactured in Russia, the RD-180 was designed by an American company). And Aerojet had already modified the NK-33 TVC to move the whole engine (I believe). Thus, an RD-193 could be almost a drop in replacement for the NK-33, while an export version of the RD-191 would be unnecessary heavy and have excessive capabilities (i.e. more expensive than necessary).

ok, now I understand where this drop in replacement thinking is going.   Careful, your real close to hitting Jim's lego button ;D

Drop in does not work as that system is designed, and owned by Aerojet as part of the AJ-26.    Aerojet wishes to sell its own engines.

Orbital/ATK could develop their own system, but do they have the time available?
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Offline WindnWar

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #155 on: 11/12/2014 03:10 am »
A question I saw earlier but still have not seen an answer for concerns Antares using sub cooled liquid oxygen for the AJ-26. Does anyone know if the replacement engines will be compatible with this and if not what effect that will have on available O2 capacity? Does sub cooling it significantly increase density? I found a couple papers on it but they were behind paywalls.


Offline R7

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #156 on: 11/12/2014 11:59 am »
Does anyone know if the replacement engines will be compatible with this and if not what effect that will have on available O2 capacity? Does sub cooling it significantly increase density?

Antares has been quoted using oxygen cooled to 78K, this gives  5% density increase compared to normal boiling point 90.2K .

Don't know definitive answer to the first question but on a general note engines not designed for subcooled LOX are likely to perform the same (with minor orifice tuning to account for the higher oxidizer pump performance) using it while engines designed for subcooled LOX may not even be able to run using normal temp LOX.

IIRC NK-33 needs the subcooled LOX for the lubrication of complex oxidizer inducer/pump combo bearings. Also the substantially lower vapor pressure of subcooled LOX may play a role. A pump tuned to take full advantage of that would cavitate using normal temp LOX.
« Last Edit: 11/12/2014 12:00 pm by R7 »
AD·ASTRA·ASTRORVM·GRATIA

Offline Stan Black

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #157 on: 11/12/2014 08:53 pm »
NPO Energomash annual report for 2013
Quote
В качестве ближайших перспектив на 2014 год запланированы следующие работы:
2. Выпуск технического отчета по конструкции двигателя РД181 для РН «Антарес»;
http://e-disclosure.ru/portal/files.aspx?id=24614&type=2

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #158 on: 11/12/2014 10:17 pm »
NPO Energomash annual report for 2013
Quote
В качестве ближайших перспектив на 2014 год запланированы следующие работы:
2. Выпуск технического отчета по конструкции двигателя РД181 для РН «Антарес»;
http://e-disclosure.ru/portal/files.aspx?id=24614&type=2
NPO Energomash annual report for 2013
Quote
В качестве ближайших перспектив на 2014 год запланированы следующие работы:
2. Выпуск технического отчета по конструкции двигателя РД181 для РН «Антарес»;
http://e-disclosure.ru/portal/files.aspx?id=24614&type=2

That translates (usiong Google) to:
Quote
As the immediate prospects for 2014 are scheduled the following work:
2. Issue a technical report on the design of the engine RD181 for RN "Antares" ;
from the RD-181

Offline asmi

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #159 on: 01/16/2015 09:33 am »
According to Izvestia newspaper, NPO Energomash received all necessary approvals from the Government to sell RD-181 for non-military purposes: http://izvestia.ru/news/581858 (in Russian)

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