Author Topic: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-181  (Read 118404 times)

Offline Jim

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #120 on: 11/07/2014 01:13 am »
How about as a short term solution. Use a recovered F9 first stage (provided SpaceX gets one back soon).

Use the Antares second stage. Let Orbital provide any adapter and they could process all their stuff elsewhere at the cape then shortly before flight integrate both sections at LC40.

SpaceX could have an anchor user for used F9 boosters and by just selling the booster and launch they could give Orbital some great pricing.

It's a nonstarter.  Breaks the rule:  "rockets are not Legos"
There are many ways it wouldn't work, I will let it up to others to point out the ways.

Offline CT Space Guy

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #121 on: 11/07/2014 01:16 am »
Are you not capable of pointing out the ways Jim?

Offline arachnitect

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #122 on: 11/07/2014 01:24 am »
Are you not capable of pointing out the ways Jim?

Would need to do loads analysis, aerodynamic work, get the avionics to talk to each other, etc. etc.

Faster (and therefore cheaper) to just use a proper F911

Offline Jim

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #123 on: 11/07/2014 01:27 am »
Are you not capable of pointing out the ways Jim?

they are intuitively obvious .

Somebody with a tagline such as "Old space, limited knowledge unlimited arrogance….New space Thump, Thump" should be able to point them out.

Offline rusty

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #124 on: 11/07/2014 05:40 am »
Minotaur family excluding Minotaur-C versions are not subject to FAA because they are government launchers (managed through USAF; DoD, not FAA/NASA; DoC) . Since Antares is a civilian launcher it is subject to stricter criteria to ensure enforced safety. I will let other people like Jim provide the details as I'm at work right now.
And yet a solid has been proposed as an Antares first stage. Perhaps yours and the previous "overpressure IIRC" comments are invalid. I will let Chris Gebhardt provide the details as I'm busy.
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/11/atk-expand-alternative-atlasv-rd-180/

Offline fatjohn1408

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #125 on: 11/07/2014 07:56 am »
Well since this article came out: http://spacenews.com/article/launch-report/42460orbital-to-accelerate-upgraded-antares-use-other-vehicles-for-cygnus

We know they are in talks with three companies.
Two in the US and one in Europe.
Since Athena and Rockot don't have the capability or cant upgrade on time I think it is safe to say that those companies are SpaceX (Falcon 9), ULA (Atlas V 401) and Arianespace (Soyuz ST).

Any arguments against this reasoning?

All would enable larger capacity than Antares and pricewise Falcon 9 would win just ahead of Soyuz and lagging quite far behind would be Atlas V 401. A though nut to crack, I don't know how eager they are to launch with F9 and if they go with Soyuz they should know that the Soyuz only has a limited amount of years that it will be flown from CSG. So they can't choose it as the default back-up for the remainder of the ISS cargo program, namely CRS-2.

My 50 cents, its going to be Soyuz nonetheless.

Online abaddon

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #126 on: 11/07/2014 03:28 pm »
Are you not capable of pointing out the ways Jim?

Jim was being very nice.  You should let it go.

Offline zaitcev

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #127 on: 11/07/2014 04:07 pm »
I think RD193/RD181 would be a good choice, it gives the extra performance they need. Long term both the Angara and Soyuz may move to it as it is lighter and lower cost version of RD191.
It is somewhat offtopic here, because we focus on Antares, but Angara will not migrate to 193. They need the performance of 191 to hit the payload targets of the A5, which is the only thing their main customer (MoD) cares about. Do keep in mind that the transfer of production of RD-191 into Khrunichev is not officially cancelled. That is why 191 is kept separate from the rest of the "family". It is a package deal that can be moved between major organizations, while 193 and 181 are intended for continuation of in-house production at Energomash.

Offline bad_astra

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #128 on: 11/07/2014 05:15 pm »
I have an idea.. clean sheet design for Antares 2
1st stage: 1 RS27
2nd stage: 1 AJ-10

:D
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Offline Danderman

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #129 on: 11/07/2014 05:20 pm »
This topic is about RD-193, a very interesting engine, and I look forward to getting information about RD-193.

Discussions about other engines, and your personal design for a new launcher should go elsewhere.

Offline Prober

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #130 on: 11/07/2014 05:25 pm »
This topic is about RD-193, a very interesting engine, and I look forward to getting information about RD-193.

Discussions about other engines, and your personal design for a new launcher should go elsewhere.

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Offline kevin-rf

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #131 on: 11/07/2014 05:41 pm »
I have an idea.. clean sheet design for Antares 2
1st stage: 1 RS27
2nd stage: 1 AJ-10

:D
You forgot the solids, without them, you would be lucky to get a corona capsule to the ISS ;)
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Offline bad_astra

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #132 on: 11/07/2014 07:52 pm »
It was just tongue in cheek, mostly.
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Offline baldusi

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #133 on: 11/07/2014 07:55 pm »
I think RD193/RD181 would be a good choice, it gives the extra performance they need. Long term both the Angara and Soyuz may move to it as it is lighter and lower cost version of RD191.
It is somewhat offtopic here, because we focus on Antares, but Angara will not migrate to 193. They need the performance of 191 to hit the payload targets of the A5, which is the only thing their main customer (MoD) cares about. Do keep in mind that the transfer of production of RD-191 into Khrunichev is not officially cancelled. That is why 191 is kept separate from the rest of the "family". It is a package deal that can be moved between major organizations, while 193 and 181 are intended for continuation of in-house production at Energomash.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, the RD-191 has the design requirement of throttling to 30% and was optimized for the center core of the A5. Also, it has a TVC. The RD-193 was designed as a replacement of the NK-33 on the Soyuz-2.1v, which lacks an integrated TVC (it uses the RD-0110R vernier engine) and doesn't needs to throttle (at least not so much). And since the RD-191 needs to work both as a booster and a sustainer, it might have an expansion ratio different than a pure core engine.
From the POV of NPO Energomash, Americans like to use American designed TVC on Russian engines (while it is manufactured in Russia, the RD-180 was designed by an American company). And Aerojet had already modified the NK-33 TVC to move the whole engine (I believe). Thus, an RD-193 could be almost a drop in replacement for the NK-33, while an export version of the RD-191 would be unnecessary heavy and have excessive capabilities (i.e. more expensive than necessary).

Offline owais.usmani

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #134 on: 11/07/2014 08:05 pm »
Well since this article came out: http://spacenews.com/article/launch-report/42460orbital-to-accelerate-upgraded-antares-use-other-vehicles-for-cygnus

We know they are in talks with three companies.
Two in the US and one in Europe.
Since Athena and Rockot don't have the capability or cant upgrade on time I think it is safe to say that those companies are SpaceX (Falcon 9), ULA (Atlas V 401) and Arianespace (Soyuz ST).

Any arguments against this reasoning?

All would enable larger capacity than Antares and pricewise Falcon 9 would win just ahead of Soyuz and lagging quite far behind would be Atlas V 401. A though nut to crack, I don't know how eager they are to launch with F9 and if they go with Soyuz they should know that the Soyuz only has a limited amount of years that it will be flown from CSG. So they can't choose it as the default back-up for the remainder of the ISS cargo program, namely CRS-2.

My 50 cents, its going to be Soyuz nonetheless.

Do they have a fairing for Soyuz carrying Cygnus?

Offline owais.usmani

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #135 on: 11/07/2014 08:06 pm »
(while it is manufactured in Russia, the RD-180 was designed by an American company).

which company?

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #136 on: 11/07/2014 09:09 pm »
Some time ago Anatoly Zak wrote:
Quote
Along with its use on the Soyuz-2.1v and other upgrades of the Soyuz family, the experimental engine could serve as a basis for the yet-to-be developed RD-181 engine intended for "foreign" launch vehicles [and]  the final configuration of RD-193 would not include gimbal suspension.
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/rd193.html

Does this imply the possibility that RD-193 will be the engine without TVC for Russian domestic use, and RD-181 will be essentially the same engine but with thrust vectoring, for export to the United States?
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Offline Remes

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #137 on: 11/07/2014 10:58 pm »
(while it is manufactured in Russia, the RD-180 was designed by an American company).

which company?

We are talking about TVC? I think the TVC on Atlas V on RD-180 is russian made. A complete package.

The TVC on NK-33 on Antares is a Moog System (and a whole bunch of others things are from Moog, like second stage TVC and the valves, which replaced some russian designs on the NK-33).
« Last Edit: 11/07/2014 11:02 pm by Remes »

Offline CT Space Guy

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Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #138 on: 11/08/2014 12:42 am »
Are you not capable of pointing out the ways Jim?

Jim was being very nice.  You should let it go.

I've spent my entire career running circles around guys like Jim...If he responds to my posts, I will respond to him.
I never run away from people like him...In the end they all go thump thump. Every one of them.

Offline Herb Schaltegger

Re: New Antares Engine - NPO EM RD-193
« Reply #139 on: 11/08/2014 12:49 am »
Are you not capable of pointing out the ways Jim?

Jim was being very nice.  You should let it go.

I've spent my entire career running circles around guys like Jim...If he responds to my posts, I will respond to him.
I never run away from people like him...In the end they all go thump thump. Every one of them.

Hahahahaa! That's rich.

This should be fun. Someone pass the popcorn.
Ad astra per aspirin ...

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