PPTS/PTK-NP development during 2012At: http://www.russianspaceweb.com/ptk_2012.html
Sodruzhestvo heavy-lifting rocketAt: http://www.russianspaceweb.com/sodruzhestvo.html
....It might actually be able to attract a few customers away from the Falcon Heavy given its payload numbers. If Falcon Heavy proves successful, I expect Sodruzhestvo might be nearly as successful. It would certainly have no lack of lifting power, given its astonishing liftoff thrust of 8.5 million lbf. To put that in context, that's 7.5% more thrust at liftoff than the Energia, 11% more than a Saturn V, and 25% more than the Space Shuttle. If this launched by 2020, the only thing with more thrust at liftoff would be SLS (8.87 million lbf). If Russia sticks to its plan for lunar missions, I'd have to say such a rocket would make a lot of sense. Given 70 mt of payload lift, you could launch manned lunar missions with a 45 mt TLI and a 23 mt manned spaceship. It should also enable Russia to build a space station in lunar orbit. Commercially it would be the ultimate GTO satellite launcher out there if you wanted to launch huge communications satellites. The question I have is, would you have to a TLI stage with RD-0146 engines to get to the moon or could you use something with lower Isp and more flight experience?
The USA would be stuck with the heavy costs of building, expanding, and maintaining its space station in an L2 orbit. The President has made it very clear that he has no interest in having NASA astronauts and scientists going to the Moon.
Quote from: Hyperion5 on 12/02/2012 04:55 am....It might actually be able to attract a few customers away from the Falcon Heavy given its payload numbers. If Falcon Heavy proves successful, I expect Sodruzhestvo might be nearly as successful. It would certainly have no lack of lifting power, given its astonishing liftoff thrust of 8.5 million lbf. To put that in context, that's 7.5% more thrust at liftoff than the Energia, 11% more than a Saturn V, and 25% more than the Space Shuttle. If this launched by 2020, the only thing with more thrust at liftoff would be SLS (8.87 million lbf). Note: "The new Long March 9 details were revealed by Liang Xiaohong, the Communist Party Chief at the China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology (CALT), China’s largest rocket contractor. Vick at Global Security did an extensive review of Liang’s revelations.""Liang outlined several new Long March versions, virtually all of them testing elements that would eventually find their way into the Long March 9 that has 4 million lb. more of liftoff thrust than the 7.5 million lb. thrust NASA Saturn V."From: First Look: China’s Big New Rockets By Craig CovaultAt: http://www.americaspace.org/?p=22881
....It might actually be able to attract a few customers away from the Falcon Heavy given its payload numbers. If Falcon Heavy proves successful, I expect Sodruzhestvo might be nearly as successful. It would certainly have no lack of lifting power, given its astonishing liftoff thrust of 8.5 million lbf. To put that in context, that's 7.5% more thrust at liftoff than the Energia, 11% more than a Saturn V, and 25% more than the Space Shuttle. If this launched by 2020, the only thing with more thrust at liftoff would be SLS (8.87 million lbf).
Consider a Moon ISRU Partnership with Russia initially supplying the PPTS/PTK-NP spaceship, China the super heavy launcher, and another nation, such as India, the lander.
Eventually Russia would have its own super heavy launcher and a Lander but those high costs are not really desirable for the initial stages of How Russia would go to the Moon.The USA would be stuck with the heavy costs of building, expanding, and maintaining its space station in an L2 orbit. The President has made it very clear that he has no interest in having NASA astronauts and scientists going to the Moon. Cheers!
LV Sodruzhestvo - Ukrainian path and no hydrogen.
....Well I've got to agree with you on the Sodruzhestvo. That makes a ton of sense. However, could you really send a 23 mt PTK-NP around the moon with a TLI stage weighing under 50 mt if it doesn't use hydrogen?
Quote from: Hyperion5 on 12/04/2012 10:26 pm....Well I've got to agree with you on the Sodruzhestvo. That makes a ton of sense. However, could you really send a 23 mt PTK-NP around the moon with a TLI stage weighing under 50 mt if it doesn't use hydrogen? Going to the Moon with international partners is more politically useful and economically doable than doing it alone. International partners also add essential stability and continuity to long-term Lunar exploration, ISRU, and development. Using hydrolox for the Earth Departure Stage, the insertion into Lunar orbit, the departure from Lunar orbit, and for the reusable Lander prepares Russia for the near future when hydrolox will be commercially available on the Lunar surface. Russia needs high Isp hydrolox propellant to minimize costs. Russia needs hydrolox ISRU to minimize costs. Reusable rockets, sustainability, and the rapid expansion of the Lunar options are enhanced by hydrolox ISRU. International high tech partnerships, strategic geopolitical location influence or control, tourism, research, and resource exploitation are the doable soft and hard power expanding goals. Russia would go to the Moon with as many partners as possible.
....I'm not saying they wouldn't go with many partners, just that they'd probably want to have some independent capability to launch lunar missions as well. One of the reasons why the ISS is still operational is because it relied on both Russia and the US to send up crew. Lunar missions would be more sustainable if they have two countries that can carry them out on some level. For that you need a Sodruzhestvo with real lunar capability.
Quote from: fregate on 12/03/2012 05:54 amLV Sodruzhestvo - Ukrainian path and no hydrogen. Well I've got to agree with you on the Sodruzhestvo. That makes a ton of sense. However, could you really send a 23 mt PTK-NP around the moon with a TLI stage weighing under 50 mt if it doesn't use hydrogen?
If the President and NASA's leadership continue to refuse to provide international leadership in doing ISRU on the Lunar surface
could you really send a 23 mt PTK-NP around the moon with a TLI stage weighing under 50 mt if it doesn't use hydrogen?
Quote from: Hyperion5 on 12/04/2012 10:26 pmQuote from: fregate on 12/03/2012 05:54 amLV Sodruzhestvo - Ukrainian path and no hydrogen. Well I've got to agree with you on the Sodruzhestvo. That makes a ton of sense. However, could you really send a 23 mt PTK-NP around the moon with a TLI stage weighing under 50 mt if it doesn't use hydrogen? 1. Where on Earth did you get 50 mt TLI stage for Manned Lunar mission?According to RKK Energia's president Vitaly Lopota, the rocket (LV Sodruzhestvo) could deliver between 60 and 70 tons to the low Earth orbit. Let's assume 65 mt. 2. It's not around the moon (Zond-style) mission. PTK-NP objective is a LLO. 3. PTK-L and EDS are launched by two separate LVs with EOR docking.
Nope. The approximate rule of thumb is that a LOX/LH2 stage can throw its own mass through TLI (read, a 15 ton Centaur throws a 15 ton payload, and on) For the sake of comparison, a 20 tons Block D barely throws a 7 tons Soyuz in TLI - a mere 1/3 of its own mass.
I don't mean a Zond style mission
Facts are so easy to distort; it's easy to makes oneself the victim.Let's say I'm a victim, too, just a little angry to read 18 times the same rant - a) China is heading for manned lunar missions (red herring: it is not) b) CGR will force astronauts to the lunar surface, or under it (how Apollo astronauts survived, no idea) c) naughty Obama don't want astronauts on the Moon, blah blah blah again and again, over and over, as I pointed. ....
Yep. And the first step in "rebuilding U.S. credibility as a reliable partner" might be for the President to show up in Florida and declare, 'It is an American priority to send NASA and international space exploration partner astronauts to the polar regions of the Moon to do ISRU.'Would that simple statement build some international trust?
Facts are so easy to distort; it's easy to makes oneself the victim.Let's say I'm a victim, too, just a little angry to read 18 times the same rant - a) China is heading for manned lunar missions (red herring: it is not)
For lunar orbit you add 1 km/s after TLI (4 km/s) and of course 1 km/s for the trans Earth injection. With the approximate rule of thumb, to send the 23 tons ship into TLI (thus not in and out of LLO) you'll need a stage massing 70 tons or more - at the upper limit of the rocket payload range.
To the OP. On a rocket. Couldn't resist.