NASASpaceFlight.com Forum

General Discussion => Live Event Section - Latest Space Flight News => Topic started by: Blackstar on 03/19/2013 11:08 pm

Title: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Blackstar on 03/19/2013 11:08 pm
Has the NTRS server been shut down because of this?

http://wolf.house.gov/press-releases/wolf-chinese-national-potentially-involved-in-nasa-langley-security-violations/

"Second: NASA should immediately take down all publicly available technical data sources until all documents that have not been subjected to export control review have received such a review and all controlled documents are removed from the system."
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 03/19/2013 11:13 pm
Well NTRS has not been the most stable server in the world for a long time - it used to be hit or miss. Although this request can explain it as well.  ::)
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: shuttlelegs on 03/20/2013 12:00 am
i hope not. This site is a gold mine for that little bit more information on any subject regarding space. i check it every day to see if anything new has been added.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: spectre9 on 03/20/2013 12:00 am
The problems might've been related to cyber attacks?

I didn't think there was anything ITAR on there anyway? What's with the sudden paranoia?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: iamlucky13 on 03/20/2013 12:53 am
* EDIT - merged with Blackstar's thread. *

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/lawmaker-calls-for-nasa-data-review-after-scientist-arrested-383640/

Quote
NASA appears to have blocked public access to a server containing thousands of technical documents amidst charges by one US lawmaker over lapses of security involving a Chinese national

NTRS does indeed appear to be offline. All of the other NASA sites I've tried still work, including PDS.

The details in the article don't appear to support Representative Wolf's apparent demand to take down NASA's public technical information.

Obviously, the suspicion is that Bo Jiang had non-public information. The Chinese could have gotten anything they want from NTRS at their leisure, just like the rest of us can.

Although possibility of lax hiring criteria sounds credible, unless the evidence leading up to or found due to Bo Jiang's arrest indicates there is improperly released information on NTRS, taking down NTRS strikes me as an over-reaction.

There's more details here:
http://news.discovery.com/human/was-chinese-scientist-a-spy-at-nasa-130318.htm
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 03/20/2013 01:07 am
Won't comment too much on this, except to note that Wolf is again playing the typical Chinese over-drama card....  >:( (even when I have almost no sympathy for the Chinese government, I must say!)

Did Wolf oppose the measures to relax the ITAR regulations a few months earlier?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/20/2013 01:58 am
Cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: jkumpire on 03/20/2013 02:12 am
Is he?

http://washingtonexaminer.com/doj-defense-contractor-shared-nuclear-defense-secrets-with-young-chinese-lover/article/2524768

Justice Department officials say that a former Army officer and current defense contractor spent the better part of the last two years sharing top secret information about U.S. missile defense and nuclear weapons with a young woman from China.

The 59-year-old Benjamin Pierce Bishop, who works out of Hawaii, also violated policy by hiding his “romantic relationship” with the 27-year-old woman, DOJ says.

“According to the affidavit, the national defense information that Bishop passed to [the woman] included information relating to nuclear weapons; information on planned deployment of U.S. strategic nuclear systems; information on the ability of the United States to detect low- and medium-range ballistic missiles of foreign governments; and information on the deployment of U.S. early warning radar systems in the Pacific Rim,” the Justice Department announced yesterday.


The alleged leaks took place between May of 2011 and December 2012, according to DOJ, while the “romantic relationship” supposedly began in June 2011.

The charge comes just days after President Obama decided to deploy 14 additional missile interceptors on the Pacific Rim in response to North Korea’s threat that it will attack the United States of sanctions levied against its nuclear weapons program.

China criticized the defense move. “All measures seeking to increase military capacities will only intensify antagonism and will not help to solve the problem,” Chinese Foreign Affairs Ministry spokesman Hong Lei said, per The Washington Times.

Bishop faces 20 years in prison for the charges “one count of willfully communicating national defense information to a person not entitled to receive such information and one count of unlawfully retaining documents related to the national defense.”
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: jkumpire on 03/20/2013 02:14 am
Maybe they shouldn't take the site down, but doggone it once in a while there's a problem, and it's not just some Congressional Republican crying wolf (no pun intended of course :) ).
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: iamlucky13 on 03/20/2013 02:26 am
Is he?

http://washingtonexaminer.com/doj-defense-contractor-shared-nuclear-defense-secrets-with-young-chinese-lover/article/2524768

Is he what?

Is he getting classified information from NTRS?

So far no evidence has been produced to that effect. In fact, apparently no one has even claimed as much, including Rep. Wolf as far as I've seen.

Is he abusing his position to compromise classified information obtained elsewhere? Nobody here seems to be challenging that accusation.

It doesn't look like a congressman crying wolf. It looks like a congressman who, when the farmhand caught a wolf, decided to punish the sheep.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Lar on 03/20/2013 03:00 am
Let's hope he stole the SLS plans... should set the chinese back DECADES. :)

But ya, taking NTRS down seems overreactive. Representative Wolf's press release makes it sound like he singlehandedly stopped the espionage. Please.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/20/2013 03:01 am
Yeah, this is stupid. Leaks of classified information happen through the usual ways, like leaking details to a love interest. Rep. Wolf MUST understand that shooting an unrelated bystander (NTRS) is not going to increase national security but will probably hurt it by reducing the ability of Americans to learn about aerospace.

And it's simply wrong to do this sort of thing. Rep. Wolf is incredibly irresponsible here.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 03/20/2013 03:14 am
Let's hope he stole the SLS plans... should set the chinese back DECADES. :)

But ya, taking NTRS down seems overreactive. Representative Wolf's press release makes it sound like he singlehandedly stopped the espionage. Please.

<OT> Sorry, too late!  ;D It's called the CZ-9. (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=8447.msg928958#msg928958) Mind you, it should stay in the .pptx / .pdf stage for at least several years, but even if the Chinese get it fly in the 2030's, that isn't too far behind the SLS.... </OT>
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Orbiter on 03/20/2013 03:32 am
This is ludicrous. Wolf acts like he's trying to stop China from landing on Mars next summer by starting a witch-hunt at NASA and it's hardly the first time he's done something like this. He passed a clause in 2011 to prohibit any further NASA/Chinese collaboration that ended up banning journalists from China to the STS-134 launch.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 03/20/2013 03:47 am
Which many at NASA have willfully ignored..

He's not just making this stuff up. China *is* engaged in a widespread industry espionage program.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 03/20/2013 03:50 am
Which many at NASA have willfully ignored..

He's not just making this stuff up. China *is* engaged in a widespread industry espionage program.


True, but you'd thought that someone would have checked the documents for ITAR before putting them up on NTRS. And I doubt that the Chinese can filtrate someone on this position....
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 03/20/2013 03:55 am
True, but you'd thought that someone would have checked the documents for ITAR before putting them up on NTRS. And I doubt that the Chinese can filtrate someone on this position....

IIRC there's no requirement to do so. That's the problem.

I agree that it's completely unrelated to this case. Wolf is just striking when the iron is hot.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/20/2013 04:05 am
You know, I read Wolf's statement, and it doesn't appear there's anything really damning about the contractor's story so far. Federal agents caught him up by asking him questions (moral of the story is to not answer questions without a lawyer except with "I'm not sure..." If you answer incorrectly, you can get arrested, even if all you did was forget... If it's "consensual," they don't have to read you your rights.). And no, NASA doesn't just willy-nilly put sensitive stuff on NTRS.

Wolf acts like every single Chinese person is obviously going to be a spy. In academia, there are countless Chinese students with access to University Libraries and journal articles, oh the horror!
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 03/20/2013 04:11 am
moral of the story is to not answer questions without a lawyer

Agreed. Don't talk to the police!

Quote
And no, NASA doesn't just willy-nilly put sensitive stuff on NTRS.

Never said they did.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: joek on 03/20/2013 04:18 am
True, but you'd thought that someone would have checked the documents for ITAR before putting them up on NTRS. And I doubt that the Chinese can filtrate someone on this position....

For new documents I might see additional vetting.  For anything that was out there publicly accessible on any site of interest to China they undoubtedly have a copy, and taking it out of circulation now is closing the gates after the horse left.

IIRC there's no requirement to do so. That's the problem.

Actually there is ... <rant>This sounds like typical ITAR clasified containment rules crap.  I, as a U.S. citizen, could be thrown in jail if I provide you (a foreigner) something that is ITAR controlled (information, parts, whatever), regardless of provider--even if it came from a non-ITAR controlled source yet which is available to you from other (foreign providers) who are not under ITAR control.</rant>  With which I'll cease, as that discussion belongs in the policy section.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: iamlucky13 on 03/20/2013 05:21 am
You know, I read Wolf's statement, and it doesn't appear there's anything really damning about the contractor's story so far.

It's not a slam dunk (pending examination of his computers), but the details in the Discovery.com story seem like probable cause:

Quote
NASA officials said in a statement released Monday that they reviewed “a potential security breach” at the Langley Research Center earlier this month and referred their investigation to law enforcement. Jiang was fired from Langley last week.

It doesn't clarify if his firing was due to whatever security breach occurred, but assuming he was fired because it was traced to him...

Security breach + firing + one-way ticket to China + lying about what he's carrying during a warranted police stop + allegedly carrying NASA property add up to strong probable cause.

Admittedly, the details provided so far do not authoritatively confirm those factors.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 03/20/2013 05:25 am
It doesn't clarify if his firing was due to whatever security breach occurred

He was fired because he's a Chinese national and it's illegal for NASA contractors to hire Chinese nationals.

Right?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: jeff.findley on 03/20/2013 12:44 pm
If the statements of a US Representative can result in NASA taking a public archive offline, where does it stop?  How much money must NASA, and potentially other organizations, spend in order to satisfy politicians that (for example) papers about the Mercury or Gemini program don't contain information that could be used to develop weapons? 
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: asmi on 03/20/2013 01:05 pm
Oh God! While they're at it, they should also shut down Wikipedia because it contain all those Kepler's laws - they are used in sat navigation!!!
Shutting down the server is the most stupid thing they could possibly do. The basic principle of intelligence is "once public stays public", which I'm sure FBI people are aware of. So whatever has ever be made public will stay public forever and there is no way to "rollback" that.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: JohnFornaro on 03/20/2013 01:10 pm
It doesn't look like a congressman crying wolf. It looks like a congressman who, when the farmhand caught a wolf, decided to punish the sheep.

It bothers me that we're all being punished for the actions of one individual. 

It strains credulity to think that this one individual is the first person to have attempted to swipe data.

It bothers me that data on the F1A engine and the shuttle tiles, to pick two examples at random, is thought to be covered under ITAR.

There's been some discussion on this forum that technically, mentioning the throw weight of SLS to an unauthorized foreign national is a violation of ITAR.

There's got to be a better way to run the server, separate the currently crucial information from the historical information.

No question that Wolf is throwing his weight around, but Wolf's central point holds:

Who's minding the store?  Why are they letting people shoplift?  Don't they check their driver's licences or something before they hire them?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: rdale on 03/20/2013 01:38 pm
Oh God! While they're at it, they should also shut down Wikipedia because it contain all those Kepler's laws - they are used in sat navigation!!!

NASA doesn't host Wikipedia.

Quote
Shutting down the server is the most stupid thing they could possibly do.

No, it's not that bad at all compared to what could happen. NASA is under no "requirement" to put all that stuff online. Can you do the same for many other government agencies? Ending NTRS entirely would be the "most stupid thing" they could do.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/20/2013 01:42 pm
...

No, it's not that bad at all compared to what could happen. NASA is under no "requirement" to put all that stuff online.
Yes it is. A requirement from me, a taxpayer, to have access to the research that I have helped pay for.

Wolf does not fund NASA, /I/ (and the rest of the American people) fund NASA. NASA is not Wolf's plaything.

Quote
Can you do the same for many other government agencies?
Yes. NIH publishes all its funded research online. The Executive Branch is pushing for all non-classified research to be published freely online, so the American people have access to what they are paying for.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: JohnFornaro on 03/20/2013 01:52 pm
Wolf does not fund NASA, /I/ (and the rest of the American people) fund NASA. NASA is not Wolf's plaything.

Operation:  Addition.
Sign: Positive.
Integer: One.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Lurker Steve on 03/20/2013 02:31 pm
Congressman Wolf is on the committee responsible for NASA oversight. He is doing his job. Isn't he also having the head of Ames investigated by the FBI ?

We borrow money from China in order to pay for that research. Perhaps they would like to make those loans / bonds interest-free, or even better don't ask for repayment. Under those terms, China can have access to the research I helped pay for, and continue to pay for (thanks to debt service) for many years.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Lar on 03/20/2013 02:40 pm
Congressman Wolf is on the committee responsible for NASA oversight. He is doing his job. Isn't he also having the head of Ames investigated by the FBI ?

The FBI will investigate someone just on some random congressman's say so? Really?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: rsnellenberger on 03/20/2013 02:52 pm
...

No, it's not that bad at all compared to what could happen. NASA is under no "requirement" to put all that stuff online.
Yes it is. A requirement from me, a taxpayer, to have access to the research that I have helped pay for.

Wolf does not fund NASA, /I/ (and the rest of the American people) fund NASA. NASA is not Wolf's plaything.

Quote
Can you do the same for many other government agencies?
Yes. NIH publishes all its funded research online. The Executive Branch is pushing for all non-classified research to be published freely online, so the American people have access to what they are paying for.
I'm a taxpayer, too -- and I'd rather not see research that I've paid for given away for free to our economic (and otherwise) competitors.  Since we disagree, we should let our elected reps duke it out...

Research papers should only go on that site after they've been ITAR-reviewed and, if they haven't been doing that, they should pull everything down until the reviews have been performed.  Taking the server down for a few days while they get things sorted out doesn't seem unreasonable. 

When you get right down to it, ITAR essentially adds an additional level of security classification to documents, and using it to restrict access to them isn't inconsistent with the point you make in your second paragraph. 
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: asmi on 03/20/2013 03:07 pm

NASA doesn't host Wikipedia.
What a shame...

Quote
Shutting down the server is the most stupid thing they could possibly do.

No, it's not that bad at all compared to what could happen. NASA is under no "requirement" to put all that stuff online. Can you do the same for many other government agencies? Ending NTRS entirely would be the "most stupid thing" they could do.
Yes it is. I would understand if they would order NASA to stop adding new stuff there - this would actually make sense, but what is already there should stay there.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: asmi on 03/20/2013 03:11 pm
Research papers should only go on that site after they've been ITAR-reviewed and, if they haven't been doing that, they should pull everything down until the reviews have been performed.  Taking the server down for a few days while they get things sorted out doesn't seem unreasonable. 

When you get right down to it, ITAR essentially adds an additional level of security classification to documents, and using it to restrict access to them isn't inconsistent with the point you make in your second paragraph.
What is the point in taking server down? Even if there is some ITAR-protected stuff, it's already there and have to be presumed compromised and so non protected anymore. You just can't "undo" making something public. That's information security 101. If classified document somehow becomes public, it stops being classified at that moment.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/20/2013 03:12 pm
...
We borrow money from China in order to pay for that research. Perhaps they would like to make those loans / bonds interest-free, or even better don't ask for repayment. Under those terms, China can have access to the research I helped pay for, and continue to pay for (thanks to debt service) for many years.
Over-statement, most of this is America borrowing from itself. And besides, the real rate for ten-year treasury bonds is actually negative, so we're getting a better deal than interest-free ( http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/interest-rates/Pages/TextView.aspx?data=realyield ).

If you want to talk about that, PM me.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: JohnFornaro on 03/20/2013 03:14 pm
Research papers should only go on that site after they've been ITAR-reviewed and, if they haven't been doing that, they should pull everything down until the reviews have been performed.  Taking the server down for a few days while they get things sorted out doesn't seem unreasonable. 

Good, levelheaded response.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/20/2013 03:22 pm
NTRS already DOES check to make sure things can be released. Wolf is over-reacting and causing more government waste.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: butters on 03/20/2013 03:33 pm
I was one of the few Americans in my grad-level image/video processing classes. We're pretty eager to teach this stuff to any foreign national with enough cash behind them. I'm sure we won't all agree as to whether that's a good idea or not, but if it becomes more difficult for universities to attract well-financed foreign students if they have an affiliation with NASA, then universities will stop working with NASA.

If this guy were researching edge detection algorithms for Instagram, he wouldn't be in this mess.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/20/2013 03:38 pm
I was one of the few Americans in my grad-level image/video processing classes. We're pretty eager to teach this stuff to any foreign national with enough cash behind them. I'm sure we won't all agree as to whether that's a good idea or not, but if it becomes more difficult for universities to attract well-financed foreign students if they have an affiliation with NASA, then universities will stop working with NASA....
THIS.

Wolf's rash actions are more likely to hurt the US's national security than help it.

America's secret weapon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK0Y9j_CGgM
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: 00rs250 on 03/20/2013 04:07 pm
I have read elsewhere about the servers acting up and having issues before.  And on the STI site it says something about NTRS upgrades.  Is this just coincidence or smoke and mirrors?

http://www.sti.nasa.gov/ (http://www.sti.nasa.gov/)
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/20/2013 04:10 pm
I have read elsewhere about the servers acting up and having issues before.  And on the STI site it says something about NTRS upgrades.  Is this just coincidence or smoke and mirrors?

http://www.sti.nasa.gov/ (http://www.sti.nasa.gov/)
The STI website you just posted says this, which is more than merely upgrades:
Quote
Until further notice, the NTRS system will be unavailable for public access. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you and anticipate that this site will return to service in the near future.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: ChileVerde on 03/20/2013 04:24 pm
If classified document somehow becomes public, it stops being classified at that moment.

<OT>
Not here in the US it doesn't. There have been any number of instances (c.f. Wikileaks) where the US government has adamantly insisted that public disclosure or knowledge of classified information is irrelevant to its continued classification.  US courts have, at the 99.9% level, upheld that position.  The information may not be secret in the sense of being unknown to uncleared people, but it certainly continues to be classified.
</OT>
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/20/2013 04:26 pm
If classified document somehow becomes public, it stops being classified at that moment.

<OT>
Not here in the US it doesn't. There have been any number of instances (c.f. Wikileaks) where the US government has adamantly insisted that public disclosure or knowledge of classified information is irrelevant to its continued classification.  US courts have, at the 99.9% level, upheld that position.  The information may not be secret in the sense of being unknown to uncleared people, but it certainly continues to be classified.
</OT>
This is pernicious to the Freedom of Speech and the Press.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 03/20/2013 05:07 pm
What is the point in taking server down? Even if there is some ITAR-protected stuff, it's already there and have to be presumed compromised and so non protected anymore. You just can't "undo" making something public. That's information security 101. If classified document somehow becomes public, it stops being classified at that moment.

A description of what happens when real defence classified information escapes to the press.  From the website of the organisation that operates Britain's DN Notice System.

"
Information Considered by the DPBAC to be Widely Available in the Public Domain

The extent of the public availability and accessibility of specific, potentially sensitive, information is a factor of key importance in the operation of the Defence Advisory (DA) Notice System. It is fundamental when providing advice to the UK media on whether the repeating of certain information could inadvertently damage national security. Rapid developments in worldwide information collection, storage and dissemination, particularly those related to the internet, have brought about major changes in the public availability and accessibility of all types of information. They have also raised the possibility of very different interpretations of the term ‘widely available’. At one extreme, information may be obtained from a very wide variety of sources, each of which is easily accessible to the general public. At the other, while information may exist somewhere on the internet, it may be limited to a single source and be capable of being found only after prodigious effort and ingenuity. Between these two extremes, a range of potentially valid interpretations of ‘widely available’ exists.

In clarifying what it understands by this term, the DPBAC has decided that DA Notice advice will take into account prior publication or broadcast by major newspapers, broadcast networks and high-profile magazines, prior distribution by internationally networked news, picture and television agencies, and prominence on major internet search engines or widely-used webcast channels. When providing DA Notice advice, it will continue to be for the Committee’s Secretary to apply this understanding in each case in which some form of prior publication or broadcast is involved.

The DPBAC fully recognises that world-wide information collection, storage and dissemination are continuing to evolve rapidly. In cases where the rebroadcast or republication of certain information could inadvertently damage national security, the DPBAC is committed to ensuring that the advice it provides to the UK media continues to be in harmony with changing realities.
"

http://www.dnotice.org.uk/index.htm (http://www.dnotice.org.uk/index.htm)
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 03/20/2013 06:03 pm
As with all panicked, ill-considered and ultimately useless and/or disastrous politically-motivated acts, the thought process goes something like this:

1) Something is wrong;
2) Something must me done;
3) This (the first thing that enters their heads) is something;
Ergo:
4) This must be done.

Anyone who quibbles is, of course, a traitor or an enabler.  ::)
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: jcm on 03/20/2013 06:25 pm
Here is a list of and a story about the folks who did the hard work needed to create NASA's Technical Report Server (may she rest in peace).   
 
Every document ever linked by NTRS was long ago downloaded by Beijing's automatic search engines.  (I've watched them meticulously download every bit of my web site several times a day for months.)  Shutting NTRS down now is        so         profoundly         stupid.

 - Ed Kyle

I hope so - maybe the Chinese can be persuaded to put up an NTRS mirror so we can use it again? :-)

I agree that the whole thing is profoundly stupid. If ITAR were sufficiently narrowly scoped that it did actually apply just to things that really would hurt US security, that would be one thing (still arguable), but in practice it seems to be applied with such a broad brush on things that are clearly NOT sensitive that most technical people I've talked to have little respect for it as a process, which leads naturally to violations.
 
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: 00rs250 on 03/20/2013 06:39 pm

I hope so - maybe the Chinese can be persuaded to put up an NTRS mirror so we can use it again? :-)


I was wondering if anyone else has mirrored the site (besides China)?  I read somewhere NASA wanted people to or encouraged it.  Nothing like waiting for those black vehicles to roll up if you were to place a copy of it backup on the web, if you were located in the U.S.A.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: iamlucky13 on 03/20/2013 06:39 pm
Congressman Wolf is on the committee responsible for NASA oversight. He is doing his job. Isn't he also having the head of Ames investigated by the FBI ?

Investigating whether NASA Langley's hiring practices are appropriate is good. Investigating whether stuff is getting reviewed properly before it goes on NTRS is good.

Shutting down NTRS after papers are already public is questionable at best. I hope this will be a short outage, but in the meantime, a huge trove of useful and legitimately public information is offline in response to espionage completely unrelated to that repository.

And to arguably no effect. As someone else said, they shut the gate after the horse left the stable.

If classified document somehow becomes public, it stops being classified at that moment.

<OT>
Not here in the US it doesn't. There have been any number of instances (c.f. Wikileaks) where the US government has adamantly insisted that public disclosure or knowledge of classified information is irrelevant to its continued classification.  US courts have, at the 99.9% level, upheld that position.  The information may not be secret in the sense of being unknown to uncleared people, but it certainly continues to be classified.
</OT>

That is correct. In general I agree with that position. The fact that classified information has been compromised once does not mean it's ok to compromise it further. Wikileaks is a pretty good example, because even when Wikileaks gained classified info, there were still lots of people who did not and should not have that info. When they posted the info openly, however, others probably did get it.

But in this case we're not really talking about stopping the circulation classified documents. We're talking about stopping the circulation of unclassified documents.

Rep. Wolf implicitly suggests there might be classified documents on NTRS, but has not even directly claimed, much less substantiated the suggestion, nor indicated any evidence exists linking Bo Jiang and NTRS.

To carry the theory out to an obvious absurdity, why stop at shutting down NTRS? Why not seek search warrants and restraining orders prohibiting the use of electronic communications for every person who has ever accessed NTRS? We might also have unwittingly come into possession of classified documents, and until the status of every document in our possession is checked, does not the same presumption of imminent compromise apply?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: iamlucky13 on 03/20/2013 06:47 pm
Related question:

NTRS is not accessible to the public, but can NASA employees, university researchers, and others with good reasons to need files from NTRS still get them? Is there a process for them to request and receive specific files?

It's not classified, so I would think there's no specific criteria for who is allowed to see what or how to request it.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/20/2013 07:00 pm
I hope so - maybe the Chinese can be persuaded to put up an NTRS mirror so we can use it again? :-)

Of course when I searched for "NTRS Mirror" I came up with ....

"Hybrid Electrostatic/Flextensional Mirror for Lightweight, Large ...
ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=20130009454"  etc., followed by
"Until further notice, the NTRS system will be unavailable for public access."

If needed, I would happily contribute every kilobit of every downloaded NTRS file on my drive to help recreate at least a fraction of the information.  We would need a few tens of thousands more to share similarly, I suppose, and a place to put it all.

 - Ed Kyle
Yeah, worth pointing out that NTRS is partially mirrored on Google... (Click "Quick View")
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: simonbp on 03/20/2013 07:12 pm
Guys, I *distinctly* remember seeing a "changes are coming, get ready for the new NTRS" type message posted last week. Occam's Razor is that they are just updating the website, nothing sinister.

Is there any actual evidence of any connection to an espionage case, or was the original post just total speculation?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/20/2013 07:17 pm
Guys, I *distinctly* remember seeing a "changes are coming, get ready for the new NTRS" type message posted last week. Occam's Razor is that they are just updating the website, nothing sinister.

Is there any actual evidence of any connection to an espionage case, or was the original post just total speculation?
Yes there is. Have you even read this thread? Wolf said he was going to ask for NASA's reports to be taken down from public view until they could be gone through. Then we find out that NTRS has been taken down from /public/ view (not necessarily internal).

He asked for it to be taken down, then it goes down. But that's just speculation?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Jester on 03/20/2013 07:18 pm
Until further notice,
the NTRS system will be unavailable for public access.
We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you and anticipate
that this site will return to service in the near future.


settle down....breathe....

Yes it sucks it's down now, but at least the message above indicates that it should be back
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 03/20/2013 07:18 pm
Guys, I *distinctly* remember seeing a "changes are coming, get ready for the new NTRS" type message posted last week. Occam's Razor is that they are just updating the website, nothing sinister.

Is there any actual evidence of any connection to an espionage case, or was the original post just total speculation?

Well Keith Cowing of NASA Watch did contact the NASA HQ PAO (http://nasawatch.com/archives/2013/03/nasa-technical.html), which said that "It's down for review to ensure there is no sensitive content on the server."  ::)
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: iamlucky13 on 03/20/2013 07:34 pm
Guys, I *distinctly* remember seeing a "changes are coming, get ready for the new NTRS" type message posted last week. Occam's Razor is that they are just updating the website, nothing sinister.

Is there any actual evidence of any connection to an espionage case, or was the original post just total speculation?

You probably saw it right here on the front page:
http://www.sti.nasa.gov/

It says nothing about a multi-day outage. Generally upgrades to heavily used servers are done at non-peak hours and planned well ahead of time to minimize the time required, with fallback plans pre-arranged so if something goes wrong, you can easily revert to the old system. And anybody with a lick of sense posts a specific message ahead of time with the scheduled date and time, and a message during the upgrade explaining why the site is down.

I last accessed NTRS on Friday, if I remember right. There were no specific notices.

That does not preclude this is a coincidence, but since Rep. Wolf demanded all technical data resources be taken offline, and NTRS immediately went down for multiple days so far, the simplest answer I see is not that they ran into unusually difficult problems upgrading NTRS, can't revert to the old system, and can't even post a brief explanation of why the site is down, but that they did what Rep. Wolf demanded they do.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: manboy on 03/20/2013 08:25 pm

I hope so - maybe the Chinese can be persuaded to put up an NTRS mirror so we can use it again? :-)


I was wondering if anyone else has mirrored the site (besides China)?  I read somewhere NASA wanted people to or encouraged it.  Nothing like waiting for those black vehicles to roll up if you were to place a copy of it backup on the web, if you were located in the U.S.A.
You may be able to find some of the files on archive.org.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: IRobot on 03/20/2013 08:38 pm
Guys, I'm from a crappy country (in terms of economy) and I clearly remember that a Portuguese company close to my home caught a couple of Chinese spies per year!  That was 15 years ago and they manufacture very large transformers, not rockets! I just wonder how many got what they want.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: smith5se on 03/20/2013 08:51 pm
Adding this to cause more "ZOMG, run around panic" LOL

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013/03/20/nasa-locks-out-foreigners-following-spy-allegations/?test=latestnews

You all crack me up sometimes...
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: ChileVerde on 03/20/2013 08:53 pm
Guys, I'm from a crappy country (in terms of economy) and I clearly remember that a Portuguese company close to my home caught a couple of Chinese spies per year!  That was 15 years ago and they manufacture very large transformers, not rockets! I just wonder how many got what they want.

I don't think there's any question that China, like the USSR before it, is heavily into industrial espionage.  The question is whether measures taken against that espionage do more harm than good -- hence the present discussion.  Probably there's some optimum level where the defense should be set, but I don't see much effort going into determining where that level should be.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/20/2013 08:54 pm
Security is good. Security theatre isn't.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 03/20/2013 08:57 pm
How is this so bad?  So NTRS is down for awhile, probably after a good review that will inevitably fix issues and probably even overhaul the interface for a better experience.  Rep Wolf only wanted a review, it is not going away forever and it seems like a reasonable request.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: psloss on 03/20/2013 09:08 pm
How is this so bad?  So NTRS is down for awhile, probably after a good review that will inevitably fix issues and probably even overhaul the interface for a better experience.
Depends on what they pull.  An interface change would be unrelated to compliance with this.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Nickolai on 03/20/2013 09:11 pm
So funny story, I had the pdf file of "On the Shoulders of Titans" (book about Gemini program, clearly :) ) open in chrome tab for weeks, and when I finally went to go save it, I couldn't. So I tried to reload the page - page not found. Eventually I find all this :/

It's pretty dissapointing, I mean I can get the Kindle version for $4 but this is silly

Research papers should only go on that site after they've been ITAR-reviewed and, if they haven't been doing that, they should pull everything down until the reviews have been performed.  Taking the server down for a few days while they get things sorted out doesn't seem unreasonable. 

How is this so bad?  So NTRS is down for awhile, probably after a good review that will inevitably fix issues and probably even overhaul the interface for a better experience.  Rep Wolf only wanted a review, it is not going away forever and it seems like a reasonable request.

In principle I agree, but the problem is that it won't be a few days until it's all sorted out. If we're talking about reviewing EVERY document that was on NTRS, this will take a long time, if it ever happens. On the Shoulders of Titans is >600 pages - how do you go through that and make sure there's no classified/sensitive information??

I think it is sad that this resource is down. I intend to write a letter to Rep Wolf and my own congressmen urging them to allow NTRS back up, because I'm afraid that if we don't speak out now, it may very well be down forever.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: smith5se on 03/20/2013 09:19 pm
From an internal stand point, I think it's about time we had someone come in and crack the whip so to speak...

and don't get your underwear in knots kids, it WILL be back, maybe a little different, but it will be back. Until then, I'm pretty sure there's plenty of reading for you to do with all the documents on this site.

Jeebus. There's my two cents.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 03/20/2013 09:42 pm
Investigating whether NASA Langley's hiring practices are appropriate is good. Investigating whether stuff is getting reviewed properly before it goes on NTRS is good.

Shutting down NTRS after papers are already public is questionable at best. I hope this will be a short outage, but in the meantime, a huge trove of useful and legitimately public information is offline in response to espionage completely unrelated to that repository.

And to arguably no effect. As someone else said, they shut the gate after the horse left the stable.

{snip}

The take down may make it harder for North Korea to improve their missile.  Iran could have found some useful information.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Chris Bergin on 03/20/2013 10:06 pm
Ironically, I went to see the Chinese this evening.

Ordered Chicken Fried Rice. I can report it was yummy!

(Yeah, bet someone reports me to the mods for that ;D)
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/20/2013 10:07 pm
Ironically, I went to see the Chinese this evening.

Ordered Chicken Fried Rice. I can report it was yummy!

(Yeah, bet someone reports me to the mods for that ;D)
Clearly, you're a Chinese spy. ;)
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 03/20/2013 10:12 pm
Ironically, I went to see the Chinese this evening.

Ordered Chicken Fried Rice. I can report it was yummy!

(Yeah, bet someone reports me to the mods for that ;D)
Clearly, you're a Chinese spy. ;)

Nah, I am confessing that I am one of the spies specially given the task to get information from NSF!  ;)

Well back on topic, do we know what effect this incident could have on the ITAR reforms that was brewing in the Congress some time ago?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Graham2001 on 03/20/2013 10:41 pm
In the spirit of Civil Disobedience, here is a 'Top Secret!' file concerning a Solar Hot Water system designed by IBM back in the 1970's. One wonders how many Chinese houses this is fitted to... ;)
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: iamlucky13 on 03/20/2013 11:25 pm
How is this so bad?  So NTRS is down for awhile, probably after a good review that will inevitably fix issues and probably even overhaul the interface for a better experience.  Rep Wolf only wanted a review, it is not going away forever and it seems like a reasonable request.

The fuss is not that it's "so" bad (for most us, anyways...if researchers who need NTRS access to do their jobs can't get to it, that's a lot more serious).

It's that it's so far off target.

I've pointed out several times already, the feds arrested a guy who had access to enter NASA facilities and use NASA computers, on suspicion that he abused those opportunities to commit espionage.

Why did espionage apparently unrelated to NTRS and using opportunities well beyond what NTRS offers lead to a decision to shut down NTRS?

If this is a matter of, "and while we're at it..." situation, without any apparently credible belief that there is any controlled information on NTRS, why does it need to be taken down to review its contents?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: zerm on 03/20/2013 11:43 pm
I'm currently working concurrently on a 5 book series for Kindle. Needed a tid-bit fact that I did not have in my own .PDF collection this week- went to NTRS. Nope.

Which means that little fact will have to be left out unless I can find it someplace else, that finding effort delays my own production of the books. Thus we have a very direct issue caused by this "stuff."

On the other hand- this will work well for next Monday's cartoon strip. Yin and yang I guess.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Rocket Science on 03/20/2013 11:50 pm
I'm currently working concurrently on a 5 book series for Kindle. Needed a tid-bit fact that I did not have in my own .PDF collection this week- went to NTRS. Nope.

Which means that little fact will have to be left out unless I can find it someplace else, that finding effort delays my own production of the books. Thus we have a very direct issue caused by this "stuff."

On the other hand- this will work well for next Monday's cartoon strip. Yin and yang I guess.
Wolf wearing a “tin foil” hat?...  ::)
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Fequalsma on 03/21/2013 12:54 am
"The National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958 established the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) and charged it to “provide for the widest practicable and appropriate dissemination of information concerning ... its activities and the results thereof.”

The Irony, she is not dead.
F=ma
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: asmi on 03/21/2013 01:25 am
What likely happened is that after Wolf's letter (keep in mind that he controls money, which means he has power) some people at NASA justifiably got nervous. So rather than carefully considering the issue and asking "Is the NTRS review process for screening out ITAR material sound?" they simply yanked the whole thing offline. That's the safest thing to do, right?
If I understand the situation correctly, it's not NASA who decided to shut down NTRS, it's Wolf who has ordered NASA to do so. For the money - if you'll read his statement closely, you'll see that he says he is ready to provide NASA with additional funding for that party of bureaucracy.
I think NASA should divert this additional funding to commercial crew/transportation ;D Money will be much better spent that way, since ITAR requirements are not clear-cut and as such are subject to different interpretations and subjective judgment. So I can conclude that regardless of what NASA will do now, if similar event happens later and these docs will be re-screened, I'm sure they'll find something else.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: RocketmanUS on 03/21/2013 01:35 am
Ironically, I went to see the Chinese this evening.

Ordered Chicken Fried Rice. I can report it was yummy!

(Yeah, bet someone reports me to the mods for that ;D)
So much for your water and bread diet  ::).

-----------

What I read was the person was arrested because they did not disclose what they had with them on the plane when being questioned.

The big question is why have a non U.S. citizen in a security area in the first place especially when there are so many American's out of work.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: iamlucky13 on 03/21/2013 01:35 am
Here's a little bit of background/speculation:

What likely happened is that after Wolf's letter (keep in mind that he controls money, which means he has power) some people at NASA justifiably got nervous. So rather than carefully considering the issue and asking "Is the NTRS review process for screening out ITAR material sound?" they simply yanked the whole thing offline. That's the safest thing to do, right?

Hmm...that would explain why NTRS is down, but other repositories are not.

I had barely begun to think about the magnitude of the process of reviewing everything on NTRS before reposting it. I was mainly thinking about people who use NTRS for their work, where as I just use it for my intellectual curiosity. And not just historians like yourself, but researchers who need details on instruments they work with. I know, for example, there was some extremely detailed info on the Mars Science Laboratory on there.

But the magnitude of reviewing everything is a huge task. We're talking 300,000+ documents. Assuming it takes a reviewer an hour to skim each one, we're talking a dozen reviewers working for 12 years, not even counting every time a question about some detail comes up and they have to consult a more authoritative source.

As for whether it all gets re-released, please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that when releasing sensitive information, if there is uncertainty about whether a detail should be released, the reviewer defaults to redacting it, so someone would have to go through the FOIA process to have the decision reversed, no?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: asmi on 03/21/2013 01:38 am
The big question is why have a non U.S. citizen in a security area in the first place especially when there are so many American's out of work.
NASA is not McDonald's.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: joek on 03/21/2013 01:44 am
If I understand the situation correctly, it's not NASA who decided to shut down NTRS, it's Wolf who has ordered NASA to do so. For the money - if you'll read his statement closely, you'll see that he says he is ready to provide NASA with additional funding for that party of bureaucracy.

If NASA proposes to reallocate funds in order bolster security then Wolf would approve; not the same as providing additional funds ...
Quote
And, finally, seventh: I am prepared to approve a reprogramming from NASA to reallocate additional funding and staffing for agency security-related functions, including center security, export control and counterintelligence.  There is no reason that these positions at any center or headquarters should not be fully staffed and resourced.  This should be a top priority.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: iamlucky13 on 03/21/2013 01:45 am
If I understand the situation correctly, it's not NASA who decided to shut down NTRS, it's Wolf who has ordered NASA to do so.

He statement is phrased as a recommendation. I don't know how strong a "recommendation" is, but regardless, the result is NTRS is offline indefinitely.

Quote
For the money - if you'll read his statement closely, you'll see that he says he is ready to provide NASA with additional funding for that party of bureaucracy.
I think NASA should divert this additional funding to commercial crew/transportation

Maybe we should be discussing this part more. I think you're misreading it, first because NASA can't reallocate money. When Congress allocates money for NASA to do something, it has to get spent on what it was allocated for. Secondly, because here's Rep. Wolf's exact words:

Quote
I am prepared to approve a reprogramming from NASA to reallocate additional funding and staffing for agency security-related functions

"Reprogramming from NASA?" The interpretation I get out of that is he wants NASA to tell him what programs they want to cut to pay for the agency security program, and he'll make sure they get Congressional approval to reallocate the money.

Thus, less money for exploration, science, aerospace, etc, and more for bureaucracy.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: RocketmanUS on 03/21/2013 01:47 am
Here's another tidbit: two months ago I was in Dallas-Fort Worth and decided to visit the National Archives to view their Mercury/Gemini/Apollo document collection. I've visited it several times before. So have many historians. In fact, I bet that if you looked at any major history book on those programs written in the past 25 years you would find that the author used that collection. But guess what? It's been pulled because of ITAR. Is it going to be made available to the public again? Your guess is as good as mine. The archivist I talked to sounded like he thinks it won't be made available again. Bye bye history.
Disturbing!
What was publicly available is now not.
And something that old.
By now there must be copies of all that info around the world.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: asmi on 03/21/2013 02:06 am
Maybe we should be discussing this part more. I think you're misreading it, first because NASA can't reallocate money. When Congress allocates money for NASA to do something, it has to get spent on what it was allocated for.
This was a joke :)
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: iamlucky13 on 03/21/2013 02:43 am
Maybe we should be discussing this part more. I think you're misreading it, first because NASA can't reallocate money. When Congress allocates money for NASA to do something, it has to get spent on what it was allocated for.
This was a joke :)

Ah...sorry.

Still, maybe we should be paying attention to that recommendation from Rep. Wolf and whether or not it could affect other programs.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: joek on 03/21/2013 02:45 am
Here's a little bit of background/speculation:

A good summation of what likely transpired.  No one is going to want to leave their neck exposed when there's a witch hunt brewing.  At the risk of waxing OT ...

Even if there is a greater good, from an individual or organizational perspective there is little up-side and a much potential down-side.  Organizations may take a hit, but it is individuals who ultimately pay the penalty, go to jail, get clearances yanked,  get black-balled, etc. This is not a Clash of Civilzations, but Death by a Thousand Cuts.

One of the more insidious aspects of ITAR is that it allows the U.S. government to unilateraly and retroactively classify information.  Just because you were allowed to freely talk about it yesterday doesn't mean you're allowed to today.  Just because the information is available elsewhere (from non-ITAR controlled sources) doesn't mean you are free to disclose it.

In short, there are broader and more important policy issues than the availability of NTRS (IMHO a symptom of a deeper problem).  While I've been in the crossfire a few times in the far past, that's way above my pay grade these days and look to others for suggestions and solutions.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: jkumpire on 03/21/2013 03:31 am
I understand the problem so may of you have with what is going on, and it sounds like there is overkill in the process and issues with ITAR. Then I read this:

NASA chief says 192 Chinese nationals work in, around space agency

NASA Administrator Charles Bolden told a congressional panel this afternoon that 192 Chinese nationals work in or around his agency, along with 89 foreign nationals from other countries.

Bolden is testifying before a subcommittee of the House Appropriations Committee which has oversight authority for the space agency's budget. Rep. Frank Wolf, R-Va., is chairman of the subcommittee.

In response to Bolden's estimate, Wolf said he is aware of five whistleblowers at NASA's Ames Research Center near San Francisco who are "very concerned" about espionage in their facility, and hesitant about speaking up because they are "intimidated and fearful."

Bolden replied that "I would be very bothered" to know that even five are upset.

The NASA head's testimony follows the arrest this past weekend of Bo Jiang, a Chinese national employed by a NASA contractor in a position that afforded him virtually unlimited access to potentially sensitive research and documents concerning U.S. space and satellite technologies.
Sign Up for the Daily E-dition newsletter!

Wolf also said during the hearing that "the designated country of greatest concern to me is China. We know that China is an active and aggressive espionage threat. I suspect that this focus on stealing space- and flight-based technology explains at least some of the major advances that the Chinese space program has made in the past few years.

Jiang was arrested at Dulles Airport trying to board a one-way flight home to China and carrying multiple electronic devices that he attempted to conceal. He was arraigned in federal court Monday. An FBI arrest warrant said the law enforcement agency is "investigating conspiracies and substantive violations of the Arms Export Control Act."

Yesterday, FBI Director Robert Mueller told Wolf's panel that multiple counter-espionage investigations are underway at several NASA facilities. Mueller said the threat from Chinese espionage efforts against NASA is significant.

"If anything, I would say that the threat is - is more substantial than perhaps it was 10, 15 years ago," he said.

In his prepared testimony, Bolden described a number of steps he has taken in recent weeks to bolster NASA's ability to prevent penetration of its most sensitive research:

"First, I have ordered a complete review of the access which foreign nationals from designated countries are granted at NASA facilities, as well as our security procedures with regard to these individuals more broadly.  This is in addition to reviews being conducted by the NASA IG and others.

"Second, I have closed down the NASA technical reports database while we review whether there is a risk of export-controlled documents being made available on this website.

"Third, I have ordered a moratorium on granting any new access to NASA facilities to individuals from specific designated countries, including China, Burma, Eritrea, Iran, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Uzbekistan.

"Fourth, while this review is ongoing, I have also ordered that any remote computer access to NASA resources be terminated for those from the same specific designated countries.

"Fifth, NASA has also been working very closely with law enforcement agencies on security and counter-intelligence issues and will continue to do so.

"Sixth, the review I have directed is also being accompanied by a renewed emphasis to our supervisors and the workforce on the importance of our security protocols, including assessments of new trainings that may be needed.

"And finally, I want this Committee to know that I have placed a priority on protecting security, export control, and safety compliance funding from any budgetary impacts from sequestration, and my team will continue working under that guidance."


It seems there is a problem here, with a country who has a long record of spying on US defense interests and recently has been accused with some justification of a massive series of cyber attacks on major US businesses and government agencies. It's been going on for a long time, and with the way Chinese do business in a lot of areas (like constant copyright infringement for one) it is a major problem people have ignored.

I'm sorry, but I hate the Chinese Communist government in Peking and I think they are the scum of the earth with how they treat their people. They been treated as friends instead of the enemies and military rivals they are. Rep. Wolf is not running for re-election, so what kind of ax has he to grind over this? Certainly he's not getting a lot of traction anywhere if he's trying to pin things on the President. But there is problem with China, and something needs to be done about it.

I hope the right balance is found with openness and security soon, but Communists with a high-tech military and reason to use in Asia is a major problem IMO. If I am playing chicken little here please let me know. buit it is a hard sell from what I know, read, and see.     
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: MrTim on 03/21/2013 04:16 am
Quote
I am prepared to approve a reprogramming from NASA to reallocate additional funding and staffing for agency security-related functions
"Reprogramming from NASA?" The interpretation I get out of that is he wants NASA to tell him what programs they want to cut to pay for the agency security program, and he'll make sure they get Congressional approval to reallocate the money.
Thus, less money for exploration, science, aerospace, etc, and more for bureaucracy.

I think you misunderstand; allow me to clear it up a little for you. This is will be over-simplified for brevity, but here goes:

Congress allocates money to an agency like NASA and says "spend X amount on program A, Y amount on program B, and Z amount on program C. If NASA (part of the executive branch) wants to move money from program A to program C, or shift money from B and C to a new program D  (and particularly if it moves money between one agency and another, like shifting money from NASA to the FAA) they have to go back to congress for a new bill with the new priorities, which then has to go through committees, floor votes, and then on to the president to be signed into law like any other legislation. This is a major delay and is loaded with options for failure (like getting loaded with unrelated amendments that make it toxic). There is a process by which an agency can get funds re-allocated by taking a narrow fund re-allocation proposal back to the particular committee assigned oversight over that agency and if that oversight committee approves it then the whole process is sped-up and streamlined. This is called getting a "Reprogramming" (it's a term-of-art) and the congressman was saying (using Washington short-hand) that he would approve such a reprogramming {request} from NASA. He was NOT saying he would approve a request moving money away from NASA. By not understanding that the word "reprogramming" was a term-of-art in that context, you appear to have then missed that "from" was not about money but rather about a request for authority.  ;)

This is actually arising a lot on Capitol Hill lately and not just with NASA because, under sequestration, many executive branch people are blaming all sorts of things on sequestration (it's a political calculation Obama has made to make congress take the blame for everything unpopular; he is gambling that the American people are too ill-informed to know that he could easily stop a lot of bad things from happening) As various representatives of various executive branch agencies  are testifying on the Hill, saying they are powerless, the congress keeps saying "we'll give you the authority to shift funds to preserve priority stuff" and the President has been refusing, both directly and by-proxy (through those testifying), to both request the authority and to accept the authority when it is actively offered. President Obama wants the pain and has said he will actually veto a bill to give him broad re-programming authority (which would deprive him of this particular political football in the blame game).

I know, I'm being political here, but the subject is in fact political and the parties pulling the strings (on all sides) are politicians and bureaucrats who are hired-by and working-for politicians so politics are not avoidable.
 ::)
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: MrTim on 03/21/2013 04:37 am
I understand the problem so may of you have with what is going on, and it sounds like there is overkill in the process and issues with ITAR. Then I read this:
NASA chief says 192 Chinese nationals work in, around space agency ...
O.K.  So what does that have to do with NTRS?
 - Ed Kyle
Possible somebody was using it as a "drop box"? (i.e. putting stuff on there to allow others to access it easily and anon from anywhere)

I have actually noted a disturbing trend in NTRS stuff that makes NTRS (taken at face-value) seem less of a threat; namely that most material there from before, for example, 1990 is serious technical stuff loaded with solid numbers and details, computer source code, tabular data, etc but much of the recent stuff there is just fluffy nearly detail-free PowerPoint slideshow junk.

Stuff from the sixties? You need a degree to understand it, but you learn a lot that's either very historically interesting or perhaps provides insights that your work today might even benefit from.

Stuff from 2011? Pretty pictures for 3rd graders and motivational slogans in large, colored type which might even be applicable to a poster in a dentist office.

Perhaps somebody actually read some of the nuclear stuff on NTRS (not likely, given that we are talking about politicians and bureaucrats) and panicked, and then (more likely given the sort of people we are talking about) decided they could get the information "back under control" by taking the server off the net (some simpletons still do not understand that once even one copy of a document has touched the web there is a chance that somebody, somewhere on Earth, will download a copy, keep it, upload a copy to other servers, etc) If the NTRS server was not being used as some sort of drop box, then shutting it off solves absolutely nothing as every document on that site should be presumed to have been already copied and stored onto any/every other computer on Earth.  ::)
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/21/2013 04:42 am
A LOT of the stuff in NTRS is no different from stuff you'd see published in journals, including source code, etc. This stuff /should/ be released publicly when not directly a threat because it is why we freaking pay for NASA in the first place!
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: RocketmanUS on 03/21/2013 05:02 am
A LOT of the stuff in NTRS is no different from stuff you'd see published in journals, including source code, etc. This stuff /should/ be released publicly when not directly a threat because it is why we freaking pay for NASA in the first place!
Agree.
It's our Constitutional right.
We the People of the United States-

When we have Chinese in our community colleges and teaching them-
Then just why should the U.S. citizen not have a right to the same info they are getting in class.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/21/2013 05:21 am
If Congress is so worried about China overtaking the US, then they should start DOING THEIR JOBS instead of starting yet another hearing. Start investing in basic STEM research and education and infrastructure instead of endless partisan gridlock and continuing resolutions as far as the eye can see... I'm SICK of it. I don't want to see one more hearing until they've resolved the sequester.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 03/21/2013 05:24 am
Ya know, I kinda remember suggesting that there would be a backlash to the ITAR-softening policy that was just passed.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/21/2013 05:44 am
Just a note: Chinese hacking is a very real threat and no doubt NASA has been compromised several times. Shutting down NTRS does nothing to help that except in the same way that being dead makes it hard to get sick.

EDIT:Also, any REAL spy wouldn't have to bother bringing a hard-drive over a border crossing or on an airplane or anything like that. Just set up a secure, strongly-encrypted link to Hong Kong (or even better, some place in Europe or Japan or something) from a coffee shop (don't even need to go inside). Fake your MAC address (which is trivial), use a laptop you got off of Craigslist, and you're totally anonymous and untraceable and no one would possibly be able to figure out what sort of data you've sent (heck, you could make it look like you're just Skyping with family or something, there'd be nothing to tip anyone off). This is why I sort of doubt this guy is actually a spy.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: docmordrid on 03/21/2013 05:59 am
If Congress is so worried about China overtaking the US, then they should start DOING THEIR JOBS instead of starting yet another hearing. Start investing in basic STEM research and education and infrastructure instead of endless partisan gridlock and continuing resolutions as far as the eye can see... I'm SICK of it. I don't want to see one more hearing until they've resolved the sequester.

Wolf is doing his job. His committee is charged with oversight, NOT education. That's another committee. Go talk to them about STEM.

So, we have a Chinese national who has had access to sensitive information. One who has previously taken a NASA laptop to China with God knows what on it (remembering the recent unsecured laptop blowup at NASA.) Now this guy is headed to China again with storage devices. When asked how many HE LIES. Also, he's on a one-way ticket. Has he finished his education here? Has he quit? If not then why the one way ticket? That's another red flag.

Then thre's the website. If NASA is lax regarding who it allows access internally then it's prudent to check what info is svailable externally. You don 't announce concerns and check it while still allowing external access as that's a signal to China or whoever to get their downloads done quickly. I can just imagine the number of OT authorizations at the PLA operations center.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/21/2013 06:02 am
If Congress is so worried about China overtaking the US, then they should start DOING THEIR JOBS instead of starting yet another hearing. Start investing in basic STEM research and education and infrastructure instead of endless partisan gridlock and continuing resolutions as far as the eye can see... I'm SICK of it. I don't want to see one more hearing until they've resolved the sequester.

Wolf is doing his job. His committee is charged sith oversight, NOT education. That's another committee. Go talk to them about STEM.
STEM includes NASA. I didn't say /just/ STEM /education/. Bottom line is this Congress is the most unproductive Congress (or at least it was in 2012) since the 1940s. They love to grandstand and make a big stink about some issue because it distracts from the fact that they're not doing their job.

Quote
So, we have a Chinese national who has had access to sensitive information. One who has previously taken a NASA laptop to China with God knows what on it (remembering the recent unsecured laptop blowup at NASA.) Now this guy is headed to China again with storage devices. When asked how many HE LIES.
Lied or forgot? Easy to screw up under stress. Probably shouldn't have been given any access to begin with, but this doesn't mean he's a spy.
Quote
Also, he's on a one-way ticket. Has he finished his education here? Has he quit? If not then why the one way ticket? That's another red flag.
He was fired. And seriously, why bother bringing the data on a laptop HD? Just use a secured link at a coffee shop with a Craigslist laptop. This fails the stupid test too much to be a real pro spy.

And if he WAS a spy, why wouldn't he have just purchased a two-way ticket (then not show for the return trip)? He was fired and going home. He probably had forgotten about the other laptop or was stupid enough to think they would give him less trouble (did he have pornography on it?) if he simply lied about it (a clumsy mistake a trained spy wouldn't make...).
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: docmordrid on 03/21/2013 06:25 am
Lied or forgot? We'll find out since he's being charged with lying to an FBI agent. Probably a placeholder charge while they consider more serious ones.

As to "pro spies", those are more often the handlers who depend on appropriated visiting students, contractors or disaffected (or otherwise compromised) domestic nationals. Why risk valuable pros for this kind infiltration when you can just get someone with a real backstory that NASA'll let in without much more effort than than getting a visa?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/21/2013 06:29 am
Lied or forgot? We'll find out since he's being charged with lying to an FBI agent. Probably a placeholder charge while they consider more serious ones.

As to "pro spies", those are more often the handlers who depend on appropriated visiting students, contractors or disaffected (or otherwise compromised) domestic nationals. Why risk valuable pros for this kind infiltration when you can just get someone with a real backstory that NASA'll let in without much more effort than than getting a visa?
And why the heck would you have him bring a laptop with data on it? Too stupid.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/21/2013 06:35 am
Why would China risk getting an espionage operation exposed by picking an obviously very poorly trained operative (if the person is an operative at all)? I actually doubt he would've learned anything which Chinese hackers couldn't already get.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: iamlucky13 on 03/21/2013 06:52 am
Quote
I am prepared to approve a reprogramming from NASA to reallocate additional funding and staffing for agency security-related functions
"Reprogramming from NASA?" The interpretation I get out of that is he wants NASA to tell him what programs they want to cut to pay for the agency security program, and he'll make sure they get Congressional approval to reallocate the money.
Thus, less money for exploration, science, aerospace, etc, and more for bureaucracy.

I think you misunderstand; allow me to clear it up a little for you. This is will be over-simplified for brevity, but here goes:

The substance of that is basically the same as what I said, other than you indicate reprogramming is more streamlined than I realized.

The critical point is still the same: NASA spends less money on work directly related to their mission, because more money gets spent on overhead.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: anik on 03/21/2013 08:22 am
I am a Russian and I think it was very bad decision to make NTRS website off-line. Long time ago spies have already downloaded documents with sensitive information if they were on NTRS at all. By the way, some documents can be found on Bob Andrepont's website: http://ru.scribd.com/bandrepont/collections
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: JohnFornaro on 03/21/2013 01:15 pm
I have actually noted a disturbing trend in NTRS stuff ...

Stuff from the sixties? You need a degree to understand it, but you learn a lot ...

Stuff from 2011? Pretty pictures for 3rd graders and motivational slogans ...

More circumstantial evidence supporting my loosely worded hypothesis that ...

Error 404:  America not found.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Blackstar on 03/21/2013 02:09 pm
http://www.spacepolicyonline.com/news/bolden-reassures-wolf-on-china-talks-budget-realities

"Bolden publicly responded to those steps today.   Among the actions he is taking is a review of access that nationals from those countries have to NASA facilities led by Associate Administrator Robert Lightfoot, which is in addition to a review by the NASA Inspector General (IG).   Once those reports are completed, Bolden said he would consider requesting an independent review by an outside group, as recommended by Wolf. Bolden also said he had closed the NASA technical reports database until the agency could determine if export-controlled documents are included in it, created a moratorium on any new access to NASA facilities by nationals from the countries of concern, ordered that remote access to NASA computers by people from those countries be terminated while under review, and is reemphasizing to supervisors the need to strictly adhere to export control regulations."
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 03/21/2013 03:34 pm
This is high tech book burning.

 - Ed Kyle

Ed, seriously, you are taking this far too personally and are really worrying too much.  The books are not being "burnt", just kept under lock-and-key for a while.  I appreciate that, as a space historian and statistician, losing access to those documents has made your life very, very difficult.  However, there is no reasonable cause to believe that this shut-down is permanent and there is certainly no cause for you to be declaring the end of the world as we know it.

Nonetheless, it is clear that NASA is being put under pressure by the political leadership to ensure that classified and even secret material is not openly available on the Internet (at least not on servers it controls).  They certainly cannot do nothing in the face of recent events; at the very least, law-makers will want to see proof the agency is attempting to ensure security is being maintained.

You know what a huge library that is, Ed.  That tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands of pages that will need to be assessed and reviewed to ensure that there is no breach of national security.

Sit tight and keep calm.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Lurker Steve on 03/21/2013 03:58 pm
Lied or forgot? We'll find out since he's being charged with lying to an FBI agent. Probably a placeholder charge while they consider more serious ones.

As to "pro spies", those are more often the handlers who depend on appropriated visiting students, contractors or disaffected (or otherwise compromised) domestic nationals. Why risk valuable pros for this kind infiltration when you can just get someone with a real backstory that NASA'll let in without much more effort than than getting a visa?
And why the heck would you have him bring a laptop with data on it? Too stupid.

This isn't the first case of information being smuggled on physical hard drives. I believe there were some laptops and/or hard drives missing from one of the nuclear facilities last year. It's probably easier to trace a large bandwidth transfer than trying to determine the contents of a portable hard drive or several DVDs in a suitcase. Especially if the courier isn't stupid enough to purchase a one-way ticket. The one-way ticket probably costs as much as the round-trip anyway. At least to Europe they are.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: asmi on 03/21/2013 04:00 pm
I'm sure this man will come out clean, as he's unlikely to have anything with him that is controlled. Doing otherwise would be just stupid, and I'm sure Chinese can do better than that.
To me it sounds like yet another decoy to shift public attention away from the fact that Congress is playing political games instead of doing what he is supposed to do.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/21/2013 04:03 pm
How many documents are on NTRS? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? I don't know. How long to analyze each document for release (which is ironic, both because this information was deemed releaseable at the time it was put on NTRS AND the fact that it has already been in the public domain for a while now, cached by search engines and downloaded many times)?

How long does it usually take to examine a document for exportable release? Maybe hours? Usually this isn't a problem because it is done at the time of release.

You could easily be looking at a million man-hours (has to be trained personnel, too, with clearance... high salary) to sift through everything. That may have a cost in the millions or tens of millions of dollars... And it will take quite a while. For 100,000-1,000,000 man-hours, that would take a team of 50 people from between a year and a decade working full-time.

This is a pointless exercise just to appease the whims of an (IMHO) out of control Congressperson. I'm not blaming NASA for doing as they're told, but Wolf should be ashamed of perpetrating this waste of time and money on the American public and our national space program.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: RocketmanUS on 03/21/2013 04:51 pm
Just a note: Chinese hacking is a very real threat and no doubt NASA has been compromised several times. Shutting down NTRS does nothing to help that except in the same way that being dead makes it hard to get sick.

EDIT:Also, any REAL spy wouldn't have to bother bringing a hard-drive over a border crossing or on an airplane or anything like that. Just set up a secure, strongly-encrypted link to Hong Kong (or even better, some place in Europe or Japan or something) from a coffee shop (don't even need to go inside). Fake your MAC address (which is trivial), use a laptop you got off of Craigslist, and you're totally anonymous and untraceable and no one would possibly be able to figure out what sort of data you've sent (heck, you could make it look like you're just Skyping with family or something, there'd be nothing to tip anyone off). This is why I sort of doubt this guy is actually a spy.
Or they would just us a shoe boxed sized satellite transmitter.
Old school anyway but hard to detect if radio waves are focused to the receiving satellite.

How many documents are on NTRS? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? I don't know. How long to analyze each document for release (which is ironic, both because this information was deemed releaseable at the time it was put on NTRS AND the fact that it has already been in the public domain for a while now, cached by search engines and downloaded many times)?

How long does it usually take to examine a document for exportable release? Maybe hours? Usually this isn't a problem because it is done at the time of release.

You could easily be looking at a million man-hours (has to be trained personnel, too, with clearance... high salary) to sift through everything. That may have a cost in the millions or tens of millions of dollars... And it will take quite a while. For 100,000-1,000,000 man-hours, that would take a team of 50 people from between a year and a decade working full-time.

This is a pointless exercise just to appease the whims of an (IMHO) out of control Congressperson. I'm not blaming NASA for doing as they're told, but Wolf should be ashamed of perpetrating this waste of time and money on the American public and our national space program.
That answer is in our history books.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: ChileVerde on 03/21/2013 05:04 pm
You could easily be looking at a million man-hours (has to be trained personnel, too, with clearance... high salary) to sift through everything.

Trained, yes, but AFAIK an actual security clearance wouldn't be required, just US citizenship. Very likely a criminal background and credit check would be run, but that's considerably short of a national agency check. I'm sure any number of beltway bandits would be delighted to bid on the job.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/21/2013 05:07 pm
You could easily be looking at a million man-hours (has to be trained personnel, too, with clearance... high salary) to sift through everything.

Trained, yes, but AFAIK an actual security clearance wouldn't be required, just US citizenship. Very likely a criminal background and credit check would be run, but that's considerably short of a national agency check. I'm sure any number of beltway bandits would be delighted to bid on the job.
We're bidding on it now? Okay, prepare not to see NTRS for at least a year or two...
EDIT:Also, who says a Chinese spy couldn't get US citizenship? This whole situation is a pointless joke. Security theater.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: RocketmanUS on 03/21/2013 05:26 pm
This is high tech book burning.

 - Ed Kyle

Ed, seriously, you are taking this far too personally and are really worrying too much.  The books are not being "burnt", just kept under lock-and-key for a while.  I appreciate that, as a space historian and statistician, losing access to those documents has made your life very, very difficult.  However, there is no reasonable cause to believe that this shut-down is permanent and there is certainly no cause for you to be declaring the end of the world as we know it.

Nonetheless, it is clear that NASA is being put under pressure by the political leadership to ensure that classified and even secret material is not openly available on the Internet (at least not on servers it controls).  They certainly cannot do nothing in the face of recent events; at the very least, law-makers will want to see proof the agency is attempting to ensure security is being maintained.

You know what a huge library that is, Ed.  That tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands of pages that will need to be assessed and reviewed to ensure that there is no breach of national security.

Sit tight and keep calm.

I think Ed's comment is an overreaction, but Ben's comment is also off the mark.

NASA's action may simply be politically prudent. Sometimes it is best to "do something" so that the firestorm dies down.

But in all honesty, we don't have any idea what will happen, but it is entirely possible that the reaction will be to simply keep the site down permanently because that is the least risky and least expensive thing to do (a page-by-page review of NTRS material would be very expensive and time-consuming). The bureaucratic impulse is to do the thing that has the least risk and least cost, and if bureaucrats are scared about their jobs, they will hunker down, even if the risk is minimal. Your neck is safest if it is stuck inside your shell.

Trust me, I've dealt with these attitudes before where, for example, I'll show up to use a "public" archive and it is very clear that the people there would prefer if the public never used it, because that inconveniences them, and brings attention that they would rather not have. And when I dealt with the Dallas-Fort Worth National Archives I was explicitly told by the archivist there that they didn't want to make the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo collection available to the public anymore because there was a risk they could be charged with violating federal law if any ITAR data was released.
No not overreaction.
Our Constitutional RIGHTS are being eroded slowly away ( frog on frying pan with heat slowly being turned up frog will sit and fry , but if placed on a hot frying pan it will jump off ).

Learn what happened in the past and it will tell you what is happening now.

Mercury/Gemini/Apollo
That old stuff, what could possible be in there that is not already known to the world already by now or could not be repeated by global experts in the field today?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 03/21/2013 06:06 pm
Lied or forgot? We'll find out since he's being charged with lying to an FBI agent. Probably a placeholder charge while they consider more serious ones.

As to "pro spies", those are more often the handlers who depend on appropriated visiting students, contractors or disaffected (or otherwise compromised) domestic nationals. Why risk valuable pros for this kind infiltration when you can just get someone with a real backstory that NASA'll let in without much more effort than than getting a visa?
And why the heck would you have him bring a laptop with data on it? Too stupid.

The laptop was probably not used for cross border transportation but may have been used to encrypt the emails.  An examination of the deleted files is needed.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: iamlucky13 on 03/21/2013 10:09 pm
Lied or forgot? We'll find out since he's being charged with lying to an FBI agent. Probably a placeholder charge while they consider more serious ones.

As to "pro spies", those are more often the handlers who depend on appropriated visiting students, contractors or disaffected (or otherwise compromised) domestic nationals. Why risk valuable pros for this kind infiltration when you can just get someone with a real backstory that NASA'll let in without much more effort than than getting a visa?
And why the heck would you have him bring a laptop with data on it? Too stupid.

Everybody assumes espionage is always sophisticated and super-high tech, because it always is in books and on TV.

Sometimes it is. Project Azorian is a legend. The example of a spare Soviet lunar probe being temporarily stolen (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=16274.0) during the Cold War, dismantled and documented, and then returned the next day with no one the wiser just blows my mind.

A lot of times it isn't. One of the most notorious spies of the Cold War, John Walker, started his career by walking into the Soviet embassy in DC carrying a cipher card, and asking what they would pay for it.

The Canadian sailor convicted a couple months ago had apparently been successfully spying for years by downloading files on to a thumb drive at work, and emailing them to a handler from his home computer.

And Benjamin Bishop, a Navy contractor arrested last week, was apparently just handing classified papers to his Chinese girlfriend, which itself shows the sorts of the things that slip past sometimes: He was reportedly dating her for 18+ months with none his coworkers catching on that he was dating a foreigner and neglecting his job requirement to report all contact with foreigners.

If the charges against Bo Jiang are substantiated, I suspect we'll find he was not a particularly important or highly trained spy. Like docmordrid suggested - they'll use the opportunities they have, and a lot of those opportunities are expendable.

A guy like Bo Jiang might not even be deliberately placed. It could easily be a case of getting a phone call that starts, "Congratulations on your new job. How would you like to earn a little money on the side and have a great position lined up for you when you return to China?"

But then he gets fired and assumes the next step will be an arrest, so he freaks out, grabs a few token gifts to appease his boss for getting uncovered and heads for the airport, not knowing his name is on a list already.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Chris Bergin on 03/22/2013 01:17 am
Right, we had a bit of "fun" a bit earlier, I'm told. A mod got a bit upset about what have been a lot of report to mods and over-reacted with a silly message and a lock.

I've removed that and unlocked it, but someone is saying a few posts may be missing (I don't see it in the logs, but that's no failsafe). If you were impacted by that I'll apologize on their behalf and the sites. (The irony is not lost on me, by the way!)

The mod in question won't be modding again. There's a lot of pressure (internet-wise) behind big forums, but we've got to balance it at both ends. I'd prefer he didn't have that pressure and just enjoyed the site.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: spectre9 on 03/22/2013 05:42 am
Book burning indeed.

I myself stack NTRS documents up like the server will go down for good one day.

Why do I have this fear? NTRS is quite simply the world's greatest free repository of how to make rockets and by the way the media goes "look at North Korea building nuke launchers" when they try to launch a satellite it makes me wonder where the fearmongering will lead.

Not that any country that wanted that information didn't download it long ago.

I refute that new documents are light on technical information. The one about MSL aerodynamics was very complex and most of it went right over my head.

It's the "rocket = nuke" thing that has me worried.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 03/22/2013 05:52 am
NTRS is quite simply the world's greatest free repository of how to make rockets

giggle.

Quote
I refute that new documents are light on technical information. The one about MSL aerodynamics was very complex and most of it went right over my head.

heh, so it could just be a Sokal hoax for all you know.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: starbird on 03/22/2013 06:33 am
There are a lot more than just papers on rocket engineering in there.

Last week I was looking for documents on how SAS, CAS and fly by wire systems are implemented and their differences. Found a number of really good papers, including some from the x15, shuttle and f-8 dfbw projects. Also found a few books, including a pamphlet by Milt Thompson on flight research, and a book on simulator development at Dryden (analog and digital).

The download site was having issues (sql error or some such), so I ended up googling the names of the papers to see if anyone else had them. It seems that the problem isn't so much that the papers aren't out there, its that they're spread all over. Lots of edus and orgs have them, but unless you know the name of the paper to look for they're impossible to find.

I also noticed that a lot of the papers were listed but not yet scanned.

I agree with a previous poster that it would be nice of China to put up a mirror until the real site is back. Maybe Russia or Iran could chip in too.

Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: iamlucky13 on 03/22/2013 06:40 am
I refute that new documents are light on technical information. The one about MSL aerodynamics was very complex and most of it went right over my head.

I glossed over that comment before, but a similar thought occurred to me.

I suspect the poster who suggested that is not entirely off-base: It's not that there is a lack of solid technical material going up on NTRS. It's that there's now also a great deal of less technical material that it gets mixed in with.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: MrTim on 03/22/2013 09:16 am
I refute that new documents are light on technical information. The one about MSL aerodynamics was very complex and most of it went right over my head.

I glossed over that comment before, but a similar thought occurred to me.

I suspect the poster who suggested that is not entirely off-base: It's not that there is a lack of solid technical material going up on NTRS. It's that there's now also a great deal of less technical material that it gets mixed in with.
I've read far more from the archives over the years than I care to think about, having had both professional reasons and personal curiosity that sent me there, and I am certain of the shift in the heft of the content; I have grown weary of pulling-down stuff that looks good in summary but turns-out to be fluffy powerpoints. You cannot judge by file sizes given that the older stuff tends to be black-and-white and sometimes low-res scans with small files being information-dense and the newer is often in full color etc. being huge and lightweight. This recent puffery is very rare in the older stuff.

I'd urge you to go and re-examine the archives in the confidence that you would be moved by the evidence to my point of view, but ... oh yeah, it's offline ... never mind  ::)

We need politicians smart enough to know that if there was anything there that ought not to be, then it is in the wrong hands already and the only people now affected are the general public who were not the worry in the first place.  ;)
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: spectre9 on 03/22/2013 10:44 am
Don't worry I get what you're saying. Many documents coming out are just fluffy powerpoints especially those relating to exploration plans.

If it was covered in DRA5 I don't need to read it again. SLS Mars missions are still vaporware.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Lurker Steve on 03/22/2013 12:59 pm
Let's say I was a scientist from North Korea, and I wanted to build a ICBM to make fearless leader happy. How much information from the old Atlas / Thor / etc designs from the 60s and 70s was up on NTRS ?

You don't need the latest technology to build an ICBM, and the enemy isn't worried about precisely targetting missle silos. If they get within 5-10 miles of their intended target, they are happy.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: R7 on 03/22/2013 01:22 pm
I have actually noted a disturbing trend in NTRS stuff that makes NTRS (taken at face-value) seem less of a threat; namely that most material there from before, for example, 1990 is serious technical stuff loaded with solid numbers and details, computer source code, tabular data, etc but much of the recent stuff there is just fluffy nearly detail-free PowerPoint slideshow junk.

Shhh! I'm hoping for that very reason that a quick partial solution for this bollocks will be ruling the older stuff automatically 'safe' and concentrate on the newer pretty powerpoints for anything 'sensitive'. Just bring the good old stuff back on line, please  :P The much grimmer outcome will be that also the older stuff is gone thru with new tighter set of sensitivity rules leaving just fluff freely available. If one chinese contractor manages to cause the pillar of free world to self-lobotomize then who won?  >:(



Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/22/2013 01:41 pm
...If one chinese contractor manages to cause the pillar of free world to self-lobotomize then who won?  >:(

THIS!
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Danderman on 03/22/2013 04:43 pm
Any update on the story about the Chinese scientist allegedly carrying sensitive materials onto an airplane?

IF I had to bet money on this, I would bet that the scientist simply forgot he had a second laptop in his luggage.

Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 03/22/2013 04:57 pm
Any update on the story about the Chinese scientist allegedly carrying sensitive materials onto an airplane?

IF I had to bet money on this, I would bet that the scientist simply forgot he had a second laptop in his luggage.

According to NASA Watch (http://nasawatch.com/archives/2013/03/bo-jiang-to-ple.html), the individual in question plans to plead "Not Guilty" and will opt for a jury trial.  So this is going to be long, drawn out, bloody and possibly very, very embarrassing for NASA.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: russianhalo117 on 03/22/2013 06:11 pm
Any update on the story about the Chinese scientist allegedly carrying sensitive materials onto an airplane?

IF I had to bet money on this, I would bet that the scientist simply forgot he had a second laptop in his luggage.

According to NASA Watch (http://nasawatch.com/archives/2013/03/bo-jiang-to-ple.html), the individual in question plans to plead "Not Guilty" and will opt for a jury trial.  So this is going to be long, drawn out, bloody and possibly very, very embarrassing for NASA.
So is this now the second, third or forth time or more this situation has occurred since 2000. The one I mainly remember is when a person originating from China attempted to leave JSC for Beijing with a laptop containing ISS commands or something of that nature regarding sensitive MCC data involving control and systems of ISS. I might have misremembered that incident a bit, but I definitely remember something like that occurring at NASA JSC before I finished high school and moved back to Turkey for my senior year which was in 2008-2009.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: RocketmanUS on 03/23/2013 12:07 am
Would it be reasonable to bring the NTRS site back up with a list of the items it has to offer. Then when there is a request for that information, that piece could be looked at by security to determine at that point to release that information or note. The more request for an item the higher the priority to revue for release. This would reduce the amount of items needed to look over as only the items asked for would need to be looked at for the documents that had already been on the site. For new items to be posted then they would need to be looked at before offering them on the site. Once a request for a document went in it would take time before it was released. So the requester would need to leave their email to be informed of the status of the requested document(s) or return to the site later.

Does this sound reasonable?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/23/2013 12:12 am
That'd basically moot the whole point of NTRS, which is the ability to search and access multiple different documents easily. There are other sources at NASA that operate like you suggest, but it's a huge pain to access information that way. The net effect would be that a tiny fraction of the original activity (1%) and research would happen on NTRS and it'd probably cost NASA more.

It's still hard for me to wrap my head around how dumb this is.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: RocketmanUS on 03/23/2013 12:36 am
That'd basically moot the whole point of NTRS, which is the ability to search and access multiple different documents easily. There are other sources at NASA that operate like you suggest, but it's a huge pain to access information that way. The net effect would be that a tiny fraction of the original activity (1%) and research would happen on NTRS and it'd probably cost NASA more.

It's still hard for me to wrap my head around how dumb this is.
OK, thanks.

I was trying to see if there was an option to get the site up faster.
Once a document was approved then it would already be up for the next person looking for it.

Any suggestions on how it could get up faster other than just turning it back on?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Art LeBrun on 03/23/2013 12:38 am
Isn't DTIC a candidate for this same action?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/23/2013 12:41 am
Isn't DTIC a candidate for this same action?
Don't give them any ideas!
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: iamlucky13 on 03/23/2013 01:26 am
That'd basically moot the whole point of NTRS, which is the ability to search and access multiple different documents easily. There are other sources at NASA that operate like you suggest, but it's a huge pain to access information that way. The net effect would be that a tiny fraction of the original activity (1%) and research would happen on NTRS and it'd probably cost NASA more.

It's still hard for me to wrap my head around how dumb this is.

Not entirely. NTRS both provides for searching of what records are on it, as well as easily accessing the actual document. Just knowing what documents exist is useful.

And not all of the documents indexed by NTRS are hosted on it, as far as I understand.

But since even abstracts can potentially hypothetically contain classified information, I doubt whoever made this decision would allow a meaningful search.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Integrator on 03/23/2013 09:20 am
Can we please put the full capability behind the firewall, like everything else, so we can use it internally? It is a relatively simple thing to do from IT perspective.

And I agree with the comment about the utility of the search engine "card catalog" (remember those??) alone.  Go ahead and restrict access to the actual documents themselves.  If I actually need the document, I can go to the e-stacks or request a hardcopy elsewhere through channels, once I have a title and number for it. 

The bottom line is, I believe the public has a right to access the catalog of products produced by NASA [Government] over the years, unless they are classified "CONFIDENTIAL" and above.  That's what the FOIA process was created to address.

INTEGRATOR
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: spectre9 on 03/23/2013 10:20 am
I wanted to find out how much a Mercury capsules weighs so because wiki is useless I headed off to NTRS to grab myself some juicy info.

This is the 2nd page after the title page.

Now tell me this?

Why has it been changed to "unclassified" in '73?

Hasn't somebody already been through this? I would think that's fairly obvious.

Full of technical goodness but not so much as to keep secret from the world.

Surely all of NTRS has had the same precautions taken?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Prober on 03/23/2013 02:04 pm
Which many at NASA have willfully ignored..

He's not just making this stuff up. China *is* engaged in a widespread industry espionage program.


Yes, with two major goals both by 2020 one related to space and one related to a navy.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Danderman on 03/23/2013 02:15 pm
I wanted to find out how much a Mercury capsules weighs so because wiki is useless I headed off to NTRS to grab myself some juicy info.

This is the 2nd page after the title page.

Now tell me this?

Why has it been changed to "unclassified" in '73?

Hasn't somebody already been through this? I would think that's fairly obvious.

Full of technical goodness but not so much as to keep secret from the world.

Surely all of NTRS has had the same precautions taken?

"Unclassified" does not mean that the technical information is suitable for export.  Secret designations have nothing to do with export clearance.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Proponent on 03/23/2013 02:24 pm
Isn't DTIC a candidate for this same action?
Don't give them any ideas!

Access to DTIC has been curtailed; it's now necessary to be a DoD or US government employee or contractor or be sponsored by such.  Exactly when this change took place, I don't know.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Art LeBrun on 03/23/2013 03:08 pm
Isn't DTIC a candidate for this same action?
Don't give them any ideas!

Access to DTIC has been curtailed; it's now necessary to be a DoD or US government employee or contractor or be sponsored by such.  Exactly when this change took place, I don't know.
I just tried DTIC Online with seemingly no restrictions......
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Jester on 03/23/2013 05:00 pm
Slightly updated notice currently on NTRS

The NASA technical reports server will be unavailable for public access
while the agency conducts a review of the site's content to ensure that it
does not contain technical information that is subject to U.S. export control laws
and regulations and that the appropriate reviews were performed.
The site will return to service when the review is complete.
We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 03/23/2013 06:15 pm
{snip}
Why has it been changed to "unclassified" in '73?


The document was changed to "Unclassified" in 1973 because the "CONFIDENTIAL" classification given in 1961 was set to run out after 12 years.
1961 + 12 = 1973

Unlike the UK and Australia in the USA when creating a secure item you have to say how long it will be classified for.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: spectre9 on 03/24/2013 12:08 am
In Australia we don't suffer from the same China paranoia as the USA.

When Hilary turned up she had to say something like "you can be friends with both of us". I got a laugh out of that.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 03/24/2013 12:46 am
In Australia we don't suffer from the same China paranoia as the USA.

You mean our government sold out to the Chinese decades ago.. there's still plenty of China "paranoia" in the mining industry (aka, the industry in Australia).
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: spectre9 on 03/24/2013 01:46 am
I didn't say there's zero China paranoia, just that it's not the same.

We're closer to Asia, we need to play things a little differently.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: deltaV on 03/24/2013 04:06 am
The NTRS action was stupid, but not liking China isn't just paranoia. China has a law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Secession_Law) formalizing their policy that if Taiwan publicly claims independence then they'll invade it. Taiwan's government (ROC) used to govern all of China until a 1949 revolution, so PRC calling it a rebellious province is historically wrong. Defending Taiwan against PRC aggression is a major challenge for the US.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: spectre9 on 03/24/2013 07:03 am
I'm sorry for dragging it off topic.

Back to NTRS shall we?

What's the difference between "classified" and ITAR?

I assume that NASA contractors with access to information have to sign something that says they will take what they've seen to the grave.  :)
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 03/24/2013 09:16 am
I'm sorry for dragging it off topic.

Back to NTRS shall we?

What's the difference between "classified" and ITAR?

I assume that NASA contractors with access to information have to sign something that says they will take what they've seen to the grave.  :)

We're on page 10 of this thread and you're only now asking what ITAR is?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: spectre9 on 03/24/2013 10:08 am
Are some documents pre-ITAR and covered by different rules?

Is this just an attempt to dumb down everybody for fear that people outside America are surpassing them in technology because they're refusing to invest?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Rocket Science on 03/24/2013 11:51 am
This is pretty much like McCarthyism in the 1950’s and is just about as effective. Nothing more than political theatre... While Wolf makes a big deal about documents in the public domain for years is the political equivalent of the “Dutch boy placing his finger in the dike to stop a leak”. China has no interest in attacking the U.S. and has no need to. They have already won the economic war with the complicit traitor- corporations that enabled the transfer of wealth to them and have no allegiance to the U.S. only to their stakeholders...
 
Sensitive technologies such as Kryton switches still get out without the aid of the NTRS...

Anyway, this thread really belongs on the space policy thread...
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Proponent on 03/24/2013 02:28 pm
I just tried DTIC Online with seemingly no restrictions......

Did you actually download a paper, as opposed to view an abstract?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Art LeBrun on 03/24/2013 03:47 pm
I just tried DTIC Online with seemingly no restrictions......

Did you actually download a paper, as opposed to view an abstract?
As Ed said, yes, and several of them. So far so good.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Dalhousie on 03/24/2013 09:54 pm
In Australia we don't suffer from the same China paranoia as the USA.

You mean our government sold out to the Chinese decades ago.. there's still plenty of China "paranoia" in the mining industry (aka, the industry in Australia).


Quite the opposite!
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: mike robel on 03/24/2013 10:03 pm
data is unclassified or classified.  Unclassified means anyone can see it.

Classified information means it is not revealable to people who have a need to know.  There are several levels of classification:

For Official Use Only.  This means while it may not be terribly classified, its dissemination is generally limited to those who have a need for it.

in the US, we have Confidential, Secret, and Top Secret.  They all have different restrictions on who can see it.  And just because you have a security clearence, does not mean you can see anything that is within your clearence rating.  There are several other sub categories I will not go into.

ITAR can apply to both classified and unclassified data.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 03/24/2013 10:29 pm
ITAR can apply to both classified and unclassified data.

As such, all this discussion of "classified material" is irrelevant.

You didn't finish. There, I fixed it for you.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: JohnFornaro on 03/25/2013 12:15 am
I'm sorry for dragging it off topic.

Back to NTRS shall we?

What's the difference between "classified" and ITAR?

I assume that NASA contractors with access to information have to sign something that says they will take what they've seen to the grave.  :)

Psssst.  [Looks over shoulder.]  I just downloaded this report from 1962:

"Technical Report No. 32-457"

"Mariner Spacecraft Packaging"

PM me, and I'll send ya a copy.  But not a word to anyone else, ya hear? This is the kind of stuff that Mr. Wolf doesn't want Americans to see.  That's why he had NTRS shut down.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: mlindner on 03/25/2013 05:48 am
I'm sorry for dragging it off topic.

Back to NTRS shall we?

What's the difference between "classified" and ITAR?

I assume that NASA contractors with access to information have to sign something that says they will take what they've seen to the grave.  :)

I am by no means an expert, but. Classified documents mean that it doesn't matter who you are, you are required to have a certain security clearance to view that specific document.

ITAR on the other hand is an entirely different animal. It has ill-defined boundaries (at least to the common engineer) and more so can be much more far reaching. ITAR covers entire "kinds" of information as opposed to classification that is applied to specific items.

For example, something that is commonly covered under ITAR is how problems with rockets are solved. This is why SpaceX had to submit their failure analysis document about the Merlin 1C engine failure to the U.S. State Department so they could get it cleared for release and to check for ITAR restricted information. Even though all the information may be owned by a company, if the type of information is ITAR covered they can't show it to non U.S. Citizens. If SpaceX employed non U.S. Citizens for example they would be forbidden from even seeing internal memos that talked about the failure analysis.

Certain large aerospace companies that accept non-U.S. citizen interns for example have to basically "segregate" the non-U.S. Citizen employees away from the main workforce and have them work on other projects because of ITAR.

I don't have access to ITAR restricted documents myself, but from my understanding once you join a company, not much is required to be shown to get access to ITAR restricted information. It basically just requires proof of U.S. Citizenship from my understanding.

As a personal example. At our university we were using a certain GPS unit for cubesats that had its altitude and speed limits unlocked. That makes it covered under ITAR. The problem is that this GPS unit was manufactured in Canada and despite the fact that it was manufactured in Canada and unlocked in Canada, we couldn't ask for tech support from them on their own product because we would be talking about ITAR restricted information to a group outside the country.

Because of all this it begins to become obvious why so much satellite construction has started to move outside the U.S. because of the hassle of dealing with these restrictions.

Effectively the U.S. Government has put laws into place causing the export of all ITAR type commercial technology development out of the United States. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations#Harm_to_U.S._commercial_interests
http://www.nortonrose.com/knowledge/publications/67070/applying-the-itar-rules-and-managing-human-resources-where-do-things-stand-today
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Patchouli on 03/25/2013 06:24 am
...

No, it's not that bad at all compared to what could happen. NASA is under no "requirement" to put all that stuff online.
Yes it is. A requirement from me, a taxpayer, to have access to the research that I have helped pay for.

Wolf does not fund NASA, /I/ (and the rest of the American people) fund NASA. NASA is not Wolf's plaything.

Quote
Can you do the same for many other government agencies?
Yes. NIH publishes all its funded research online. The Executive Branch is pushing for all non-classified research to be published freely online, so the American people have access to what they are paying for.
I could not agree more here my tax dollars helped pay for this research I have a right to view it.
 Wolf's actions are just brainless.
But then I seen his talks on other subjects the man at best can be described as an arrogant and stubborn dullard.
Seriously Wolf should step down and retire he's doing nothing but harm here.

I'm sorry for dragging it off topic.

Back to NTRS shall we?

What's the difference between "classified" and ITAR?

I assume that NASA contractors with access to information have to sign something that says they will take what they've seen to the grave.  :)

Psssst.  [Looks over shoulder.]  I just downloaded this report from 1962:

"Technical Report No. 32-457"

"Mariner Spacecraft Packaging"

PM me, and I'll send ya a copy.  But not a word to anyone else, ya hear? This is the kind of stuff that Mr. Wolf doesn't want Americans to see.  That's why he had NTRS shut down.

Stuff like that should be freely available for educational purposes for one it's 50 years old.
How can new generations of scientist and engineers learn if everything is locked away?

I have absolutely zero good things to say about Mr Wolf and ITAR in it's present form and everyone like him who wishes to keep the status qua.

ITAR is a failure in every way and needs to be rewritten.
Even no law at all would be less harmful then the present one.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: jcm on 03/25/2013 10:39 am

 
I could not agree more here my tax dollars helped pay for this research I have a right to view it.
 
 

Sadly not true (a moral right perhaps, a legal right no). You have a right to vote for politicians who will pass open-access laws to give you that right.
(as well as pushing for a  broader pushback against the national-security/TSA state).  But so far, this hasn't become an election issue.

My understanding is that the retrospective application of ITAR to all the space stuff we love is a result of the Loral/Long March fiasco of the 1990s. But having read some of the details of that I remain unconvinced the tech transfer in that case really helped the Chinese military - and did something really change between the Cold War and now, or were we making a huge mistake in the 1960s when we published this stuff in journals, or at least put declassified technical notes in public access places like the MIT library?

The idea that a document can be unclassified but you can't legally take it
out of the country seems profoundly unrealistic in the 21st century. Either it is out in the public, in which case visiting foreign nationals will see it (and ftp it home if needed) or it is not, and therefore 'secret' in the generic sense of the word, whether the US govt has labelled it 'unclassified' or not.

Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 03/25/2013 05:01 pm
{snip}
My understanding is that the retrospective application of ITAR to all the space stuff we love is a result of the Loral/Long March fiasco of the 1990s. But having read some of the details of that I remain unconvinced the tech transfer in that case really helped the Chinese military - and did something really change between the Cold War and now, or were we making a huge mistake in the 1960s when we published this stuff in journals, or at least put declassified technical notes in public access places like the MIT library?

At the end of the Second World War basic rocket technology that works was obtained by both the Russians and the Americans from the Germans.  So during the Cold War the USA only needed to hide details of implementation of that technology from the Communists to prevent them from working out counter measures.

In the 21st century countries like Iran, Iraq, North Korea and South Korea are developing military rockets.  The USA has decided to make this difficult.  This may involve hiding information that the Russians and Germans knew.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Proponent on 03/25/2013 06:05 pm
I just tried DTIC Online with seemingly no restrictions......

Did you actually download a paper, as opposed to view an abstract?
I did.  Well, more than one.  I've been doing a lot of downloading from many places during the past week...
 

Oops -- false alarm, sorry.  I was trying do download a paper of which only an abstract is available from DTIC.  I was confused.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: jongoff on 03/25/2013 10:30 pm
Anyone want to take bets/do a poll on how long it takes to get NTRS back online? With 300,000+ documents, I'm guessing that they'll either back down from reviewing everything, or we're talking over a year.

I wish there was some way to vote against id10t congresspeople in other states.

~Jon
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/25/2013 11:28 pm
Anyone want to take bets/do a poll on how long it takes to get NTRS back online? With 300,000+ documents, I'm guessing that they'll either back down from reviewing everything, or we're talking over a year.

I wish there was some way to vote against id10t congresspeople in other states.

~Jon
There is. Political contributions to their opponents, both primaries and general elections.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: asmi on 03/25/2013 11:50 pm
There is. Political contributions to their opponents, both primaries and general elections.
And is there a guarantee that the opponent is any better? :)
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/26/2013 12:15 am
There is. Political contributions to their opponents, both primaries and general elections.
And is there a guarantee that the opponent is any better? :)
There is if you're rich enough to pick the opponent!

Off topic, though....
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Patchouli on 03/26/2013 01:46 am

Sadly not true (a moral right perhaps, a legal right no). You have a right to vote for politicians who will pass open-access laws to give you that right.
(as well as pushing for a  broader pushback against the national-security/TSA state).  But so far, this hasn't become an election issue.

My understanding is that the retrospective application of ITAR to all the space stuff we love is a result of the Loral/Long March fiasco of the 1990s. But having read some of the details of that I remain unconvinced the tech transfer in that case really helped the Chinese military - and did something really change between the Cold War and now, or were we making a huge mistake in the 1960s when we published this stuff in journals, or at least put declassified technical notes in public access places like the MIT library?

The idea that a document can be unclassified but you can't legally take it
out of the country seems profoundly unrealistic in the 21st century. Either it is out in the public, in which case visiting foreign nationals will see it (and ftp it home if needed) or it is not, and therefore 'secret' in the generic sense of the word, whether the US govt has labelled it 'unclassified' or not.



I could not agree more on pushing back the TSA /security state in some ways it has done more damage then the attacks themselves did.

It's partly responsible for the debt situation but police state governments in general tend to be in debt.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/26/2013 01:49 am
Okay, you guys, bring it back on topic. I know I am an offender as well.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Danderman on 03/26/2013 01:50 am

The idea that a document can be unclassified but you can't legally take it
out of the country seems profoundly unrealistic in the 21st century. Either it is out in the public, in which case visiting foreign nationals will see it (and ftp it home if needed) or it is not, and therefore 'secret' in the generic sense of the word, whether the US govt has labelled it 'unclassified' or not.



Not really.

As an example, SpaceX manuals regarding the design and operation of the Falcon 9 are not classified, but they cannot be exported without a DTRA license.

There is a mountain of material that is not "secret" but which is not suitable for export. You are confusing "not classified" with "public" which is not correct.

Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 03/26/2013 02:16 am
Okay, here's the law:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/22/2778

Anyone "exporting defense services" must be registered and licensed by the state department. What are defense services I hear you ask? Anything designated by the President, but it includes rockets. Section 4A tacks on "related technical data" which is just about everything.

So yes, if you're a US citizen and you're on the phone with someone from China reading from Sutton, you're exporting defense services and can go to jail.. ya know, if the state department cares to press charges.

Oh, and let's not forget section (h) which says no court in the land can overturn the decision of the state department that whatever it was you were talking about is actually a defense service.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/26/2013 03:27 am
Is still subject to the Constitution and review by the Supreme Court, even if the law (or executive directive whatever) claims it isn't. Not that that means much, of course.

But if the material is released freely to the public (which has a specific meaning, but the best way to ensure it fits that meaning is to get something in print, with an ISBN, and put in a public library... make sure it's PAPER, not just digital), then it is no longer subject to export control by ITAR (there are, of course, exceptions to this... just try to release detailed descriptions of how to build a nuclear weapon, for instance... but that goes beyond the usual method). So Sutton is /not/ ITAR export-controlled, even though it's possible to prosecute someone for giving specific passages in Sutton as references to a foreign national.

So there are ways around this for researches wanting to publish information. If publication to scientific journals were so severely restricted by ITAR, you would have huge outcries from the scientific community, since publication in major journals is the currency of the scientific establishment (you'd basically be denying academic career development for anyone at the PhD level in ITAR-relevant fields). This is partially why I think this NTRS thing is a huge overstep. Because remember, this is just a Congressperson doing this, NOT the state department. NASA is complying because Wolf holds the purse strings and anyway NASA can't afford to become a political liability right now. NOT because ITAR forces them to.

This makes me want to find all public domain publications I can and republish them in a "Journal of Free Publication" with an ISBN, print them off and send a copy to each major city public library, plus digital copies. But I don't have the money... NTRS has/had 300,000 documents in it.

BTW, I sense a little Schadenfreude, QuantumG. Not exactly useful.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 03/26/2013 04:24 am
BTW, I sense a little Schadenfreude, QuantumG. Not exactly useful.

Not at all. I basically posted the same thing on aRocket three years ago in response to someone asking much the same question as is being asked here. The law is insane but the only thing that is ever going to change it is if someone takes it all the way to the supreme court, and that hasn't happened. When people talk about "ITAR reform" they almost always mean giving the state department more control over the munitions list, not actually changing these totalitarian restrictions.

Also, Australia has similar restrictions for exporting certain controlled technologies (in the case of rocketry, anything carbon-carbon), with only slightly less registration and licensing madness.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/26/2013 05:30 am
That isn't true. There are other ways of changing it. Also, remember that bringing it to the Supreme Court could make things /worse/ depending on the ruling, who is sitting on the bench, etc. All-or-nothing isn't all it's cracked up to be. There are some totally legal ways to prevent documents from being eye-tarred out of existence, as has been discussed on ARocket.

To quote Henry Spencer:
"For ITAR, ink-on-paper journal publication (preferably with an ISSN) gives it First Amendment protection, period."
(The only caveat he gives to this is the born-secret nuclear stuff which he says wouldn't survive a Supreme Court challenge.)
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 03/26/2013 07:55 am
As Henry will be the first to tell you, if they want to get you they'll get you and no amount of legal games will get you out of it. They will bury you.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: JohnFornaro on 03/26/2013 12:25 pm
Anyone want to take bets/do a poll on how long it takes to get NTRS back online? With 300,000+ documents, I'm guessing that they'll either back down from reviewing everything, or we're talking over a year.

I wish there was some way to vote against id10t congresspeople in other states.

~Jon
There is. Political contributions to their opponents, both primaries and general elections.

Of course, money is the key to determining the country's direction, not soundness of the governing parties.  This is one of the reasons that McCain fought so hard for corporations when he "reformed" the political process.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: JohnFornaro on 03/26/2013 12:32 pm
I could not agree more on pushing back the TSA /security state in some ways it has done more damage then the attacks themselves did.

Oh, and let's not forget section (h) which says no court in the land can overturn the decision of the state department that whatever it was you were talking about is actually a defense service.

Am I a canary in the coal mine, or what?  Isn't it clear that these two practices deliberately support one another?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: JohnFornaro on 03/26/2013 12:42 pm
That isn't true. There are other ways of changing it. Also, remember that bringing it to the Supreme Court could make things /worse/ depending on the ruling, who is sitting on the bench, etc. All-or-nothing isn't all it's cracked up to be. There are some totally legal ways to prevent documents from being eye-tarred out of existence, as has been discussed on ARocket.

To quote Henry Spencer:
"For ITAR, ink-on-paper journal publication (preferably with an ISSN) gives it First Amendment protection, period."
(The only caveat he gives to this is the born-secret nuclear stuff which he says wouldn't survive a Supreme Court challenge.)

There is a constitutional principle that we can change the law so that it conforms with the ideals of freedom.  So you technically get a debate point, and NTRS stays shut down.

Took a no quote googol on the phrase:

"news on NASA NTRS site shut down"

Not much there.  There's not that much of a public outcry about this.  Speech is easily stifled one person at a time, or small groups at a time.  Wolf is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Not that Bolden has done all that much to demonstrate being a part of the solution either.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: mlindner on 03/26/2013 01:08 pm
My two cents: Before I saw this forum topic, I'd never heard of NTRS.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: JohnFornaro on 03/26/2013 01:23 pm
It was probably the coolest site.  It has been quite the educational experience to read up on the old literature.  For me, the older stuff is better written and assumes less of the reader, therefore it informs the less knowledgable reader more than the newer articles, where it is already assumed that the reader knows the background.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: jeff.findley on 03/26/2013 06:59 pm
My two cents: Before I saw this forum topic, I'd never heard of NTRS.

Then you've missed out.  Lots of interesting historical data there.  For example, I've read (mostly skimmed) many, many papers which (were) on NTRS about Saturn launch vehicles and proposed follow-ons.  Yes, some of this information can be found online at places like Encyclopedia Astronautica, but that's just a summary.   The technical papers on NTRS had all the gory details which would interest someone like myself (an aerospace engineer by degree, but a software engineer by profession).
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/26/2013 07:43 pm
That isn't true. There are other ways of changing it. Also, remember that bringing it to the Supreme Court could make things /worse/ depending on the ruling, who is sitting on the bench, etc. All-or-nothing isn't all it's cracked up to be. There are some totally legal ways to prevent documents from being eye-tarred out of existence, as has been discussed on ARocket.

To quote Henry Spencer:
"For ITAR, ink-on-paper journal publication (preferably with an ISSN) gives it First Amendment protection, period."
(The only caveat he gives to this is the born-secret nuclear stuff which he says wouldn't survive a Supreme Court challenge.)

There is a constitutional principle that we can change the law so that it conforms with the ideals of freedom.  So you technically get a debate point, and NTRS stays shut down. ...
Because it is a gov't-funded effort, partly, and also because it isn't paper. As stupid as that sounds.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: JohnFornaro on 03/28/2013 11:54 am
That isn't true. There are other ways of changing it. Also, remember that bringing it to the Supreme Court could make things /worse/ depending on the ruling, who is sitting on the bench, etc. All-or-nothing isn't all it's cracked up to be. There are some totally legal ways to prevent documents from being eye-tarred out of existence, as has been discussed on ARocket.

To quote Henry Spencer:
"For ITAR, ink-on-paper journal publication (preferably with an ISSN) gives it First Amendment protection, period."
(The only caveat he gives to this is the born-secret nuclear stuff which he says wouldn't survive a Supreme Court challenge.)

There is a constitutional principle that we can change the law so that it conforms with the ideals of freedom.  So you technically get a debate point, and NTRS stays shut down. ...
Because it is a gov't-funded effort, partly, and also because it isn't paper. As stupid as that sounds.

I'm sure you're correct.   Would you agree that it's wrong for the government to shut down NTRS?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: srtreadgold on 03/28/2013 05:29 pm
Well according to the JSC Library Website: "NASA civil servants and contractors can register for the NASA Aeronautics and Space Database which provides the same collection as NTRS and more." So that's good at least. Still unfortunate that NTRS will be out for a while.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 03/28/2013 11:02 pm
That isn't true. There are other ways of changing it. Also, remember that bringing it to the Supreme Court could make things /worse/ depending on the ruling, who is sitting on the bench, etc. All-or-nothing isn't all it's cracked up to be. There are some totally legal ways to prevent documents from being eye-tarred out of existence, as has been discussed on ARocket.

To quote Henry Spencer:
"For ITAR, ink-on-paper journal publication (preferably with an ISSN) gives it First Amendment protection, period."
(The only caveat he gives to this is the born-secret nuclear stuff which he says wouldn't survive a Supreme Court challenge.)

There is a constitutional principle that we can change the law so that it conforms with the ideals of freedom.  So you technically get a debate point, and NTRS stays shut down. ...
Because it is a gov't-funded effort, partly, and also because it isn't paper. As stupid as that sounds.

I'm sure you're correct.   Would you agree that it's wrong for the government to shut down NTRS?
It's wrong for Rep. Wolf to make that demand, absolutely. Doesn't make sense. What is on there has already been mirrored by several places. I smell a witch hunt vis a vis the NASA contractor, but even if it wasn't, what the heck does NTRS have to do with it?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: iamlucky13 on 03/30/2013 01:33 am
Well according to the JSC Library Website: "NASA civil servants and contractors can register for the NASA Aeronautics and Space Database which provides the same collection as NTRS and more." So that's good at least. Still unfortunate that NTRS will be out for a while.

Thank you. I asked about this a day or two after it was taken offline, and that's the first clear answer I've gotten.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: joek on 03/30/2013 03:05 am
O.K.  So what happens now if a NASA or contractor employee shares any of these (previously publicly released) files beyond the gate? 

Same as it's always been... If it is ITAR-controlled and you provide it to a non-US citizen (or the citizen of a country not otherwise allowed such), then you are subject to prosecution.  If it does not contain ITAR-controlled information, then you are OK.  Doesn't matter where you got the information from, or whether it is otherwise publicly available.  (If it is generally and publicly available you'd have a good defense, but They could still make your life hell.  Yes it sucks, but that's the law.)
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: woods170 on 03/30/2013 07:39 pm
That isn't true. There are other ways of changing it. Also, remember that bringing it to the Supreme Court could make things /worse/ depending on the ruling, who is sitting on the bench, etc. All-or-nothing isn't all it's cracked up to be. There are some totally legal ways to prevent documents from being eye-tarred out of existence, as has been discussed on ARocket.

To quote Henry Spencer:
"For ITAR, ink-on-paper journal publication (preferably with an ISSN) gives it First Amendment protection, period."
(The only caveat he gives to this is the born-secret nuclear stuff which he says wouldn't survive a Supreme Court challenge.)

There is a constitutional principle that we can change the law so that it conforms with the ideals of freedom.  So you technically get a debate point, and NTRS stays shut down. ...
Because it is a gov't-funded effort, partly, and also because it isn't paper. As stupid as that sounds.

I'm sure you're correct.   Would you agree that it's wrong for the government to shut down NTRS?

In my opinion it is wrong. NTRS contains lots of information, some being reference to documents in the NASA files, yet not digitized and physically put 'IN' NTRS. And some documents actually have been digitized and can be accessed as PDF.

However, a substantial amount of the documents on NTRS have been made publically available earlier, as presentations or as publications in research journals (and the likes). Meaning that a substantial amount of the materials on NTRS can be found in libraries all over the planet. So much for trying to keep that out of Chinese hands...  ::)
To a lesser degree NTRS documents have copies in other locations, such as the publically available digital libraries of universities.

Shutting down NTRS is, in my opinion, like trying to kill a fly, sitting on a dry-wal, by hitting it with a frying-pan. It will wreck the wall with the fly managing to escape the oncoming blow.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Eric Hedman on 03/30/2013 11:13 pm
Bo Jiang was released on Thursday, but will await trial for "making a false statement to federal authorities". 

According to his attorney, "NASA has looked at the computer up and down and can't find any information that violates the export control act."
http://www.dailypress.com/news/crime/dp-nws-jiang-nasa-hearing-20130328,0,7762012.story

THIS is why NTRS is gone?

 - Ed Kyle
If this is true, the charges are just to save face and pretend that they weren't on a witch hunt.  Your tax dollars at work.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: dseagrav on 03/31/2013 04:15 pm
If you haven't noticed, the NTRS was shut down for some kind of security reason. Does this have implications on my retaining or distributing material previously downloaded from NTRS? Can they re-classify documents to protected? If so, will I be notified somehow? (Before someone comes knocking on my door with a ticket to gitmo?)

Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Patchouli on 03/31/2013 06:25 pm

I'm sure you're correct.   Would you agree that it's wrong for the government to shut down NTRS?

I'd say yes it was wrong of them to shut down NTRS but the state department does have a history of occasionally making rash and over reaching decisions esp if there was a scare involved.
Unfortunately sometimes those decisions are more based on someone's gut feeling then facts and rational thought.


I'm not planning on taking my laptop across a border ever again.  I've even heard of people running into trouble going to and from Canada, though that wasn't about ITAR - it was about border agents feeling free to confiscate anything that looked like a PDF file about, well, anything. 

 - Ed Kyle
Border agents your tax dollars at work inconveniencing you and that's when you're having a good day.
I heard some real horror stories about Canada's agents such as confiscating devices and never giving them back.
I say put everything on the cloud ,wipe your device and use a dirt cheap device you can afford to loose as these people are not much above common thieves.
Really the security state thing is getting very out of hand.

Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: RocketmanUS on 03/31/2013 07:19 pm
Bo Jiang was released on Thursday, but will await trial for "making a false statement to federal authorities". 

According to his attorney, "NASA has looked at the computer up and down and can't find any information that violates the export control act."
http://www.dailypress.com/news/crime/dp-nws-jiang-nasa-hearing-20130328,0,7762012.story

THIS is why NTRS is gone?

 - Ed Kyle
If that is true, all he is being charged with is stating the wrong amount of storage devices he had on him, then they should just happilly send him back home to China. He might have just made an honest mistake. If it is that important then they should have just asked everyone to show all that they are bringing with them. After all they x-ray our bags.

No this is not why NTRS is down. Go back to 911 and see what has happened with air travel ( to many rights taken away ).

We can call them on this.
If they refuse to bring it back up on a file at a time then we will know it is more than national security. Just list the files. when a person requests a file then it can be checked to see if it can be released. If so then it would be placed on the site and be able for everyone to download it then and later on without the need to review it each time someone wants it. Review only the documents that are requested, not all of them. If they what till all files are looked at then it would take for to long to bring the site back up.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 03/31/2013 09:47 pm
Review only the documents that are requested, not all of them. If they what till all files are looked at then it would take for to long to bring the site back up.

Why weren't the files reviewed for ITAR in the first place?

If a private company did what you're saying NASA has done they'd be fined into bankruptcy. In order to avoid going out of business they might have gone to the supreme court and got these crazy laws declared unconstitutional.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: RocketmanUS on 03/31/2013 10:08 pm
Review only the documents that are requested, not all of them. If they what till all files are looked at then it would take for to long to bring the site back up.

Why weren't the files reviewed for ITAR in the first place?

If a private company did what you're saying NASA has done they'd be fined into bankruptcy. In order to avoid going out of business they might have gone to the supreme court and got these crazy laws declared unconstitutional.

I don't understand the bankruptcy. Either way if they have to review each document it will take money and time. So only look at what is requested and leave the other documents that are not wanted at this time for another day to review.

Did the rules of ITAR change over time? Were they in place when the documents were first posted?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 03/31/2013 10:41 pm
I don't understand the bankruptcy.

Even if the document is found to be non-applicable, the failure to do an ITAR review is an offense. Fines are issued per infringement. There's quite a lot on NTRS, apparently.

Quote
Either way if they have to review each document it will take money and time.

yes..

Quote
So only look at what is requested and leave the other documents that are not wanted at this time for another day to review.

A logical course of action.

Quote
Did the rules of ITAR change over time?

Yes, and you're required to keep compliance up-to-date.

Quote
Were they in place when the documents were first posted?

For some they were, for others they weren't. Like any other law, you're required to be in compliance with the current revision.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: RocketmanUS on 03/31/2013 10:57 pm
Quote
Did the rules of ITAR change over time?

Yes, and you're required to keep compliance up-to-date.

Quote
Were they in place when the documents were first posted?

For some they were, for others they weren't. Like any other law, you're required to be in compliance with the current revision.
{snip}
So there is the bankruptcy. Needing to re-review ever time the law changes and/or a new law is added.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 04/01/2013 12:33 am
I've never seen anything export restricted on NTRS.

I've seen plenty on NTRS that would never be released by the legal department of, say, Boeing or Lockheed Martin. I've heard people at conferences say that submitting your slides to NTRS doesn't require export approval.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Patchouli on 04/01/2013 12:58 am
Why weren't the files reviewed for ITAR in the first place?
ITAR didn't exist, I believe, when NTRS was initiated.  But even then no documents could be added that were export restricted.  Many, if not most, NTRS documents were added after ITAR was implemented, so they were certainly reviewed as they were added.  I've never seen anything export restricted on NTRS.  Real secrets or ITAR information would make what was on NTRS look quite harmless, because it was.

 - Ed Kyle

ITAR has been around since 1976 which means it predates NTRS by decades but the disastrous reversion we have now came about in 1999.

But this means NTRS should be clean of any truly classified information.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 04/01/2013 01:08 am
ITAR has been around since 1976 which means it predates NTRS by decades but the disastrous reversion we have now came about in 1999.

But this means NTRS should be clean of any truly classified information.

Once again: ITAR has nothing to do with "classified information".
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Patchouli on 04/01/2013 01:14 am
ITAR has been around since 1976 which means it predates NTRS by decades but the disastrous reversion we have now came about in 1999.

But this means NTRS should be clean of any truly classified information.

Once again: ITAR has nothing to do with "classified information".

Which is why ITAR in it's present form is so brain dead.
Check this link to see an example of just how ridiculous ITAR rules can be.
http://www.economist.com/node/11965352

It really seems to have been written by people who have little understanding of the technology and even less of the global market.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: joek on 04/01/2013 02:22 am
ITAR has been around since 1976 which means it predates NTRS by decades but the disastrous reversion we have now came about in 1999.

ITAR had plenty of craziness well before 1999; the rules haven't really changed that much.  What has changed is which list you are on, whether it falls under Commerce/BIS or State jurisdiction, and how zealously the U.S. government interprets and enforces those rules.  Oh right, satellites got put on the bad list in 1999 (edit: again); welcome to the club.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: jongoff on 04/01/2013 08:17 pm
Review only the documents that are requested, not all of them. If they what till all files are looked at then it would take for to long to bring the site back up.

Why weren't the files reviewed for ITAR in the first place?

Ummm...do you actually have any evidence that this stuff wasn't "reviewed for ITAR in the first place"? Other than the hearsay claims from Rep Wolf, a lot of which is stinking of bovine fecal matter about now?

~Jon
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: jongoff on 04/01/2013 08:18 pm
Did the rules of ITAR change over time? Were they in place when the documents were first posted?

Yes the ITAR rules have changed over time. Mostly in a kneejerk overreaction by some congressional Republicans during Clinton's time in office.

~Jon
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 04/01/2013 10:26 pm
Why weren't the files reviewed for ITAR in the first place?

Ummm...do you actually have any evidence that this stuff wasn't "reviewed for ITAR in the first place"? Other than the hearsay claims from Rep Wolf, a lot of which is stinking of bovine fecal matter about now?

You mean other than the statement by Bolden? If all the documents had already been reviewed there would be no reason to shut down NTRS to review the risk, right? Or are you assuming that Bolden is just saying random words again? That's just as likely, I grant you.

As for hearsay, it's not just from Wolf.. I've heard from a lot of people that NASA has no ITAR review requirements to put slides and other reports up on NTRS.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: joek on 04/01/2013 10:31 pm
Did the rules of ITAR change over time? Were they in place when the documents were first posted?
Yes the ITAR rules have changed over time. Mostly in a kneejerk overreaction by some congressional Republicans during Clinton's time in office.

Suggest reading A short history of export control policy (http://www.thespacereview.com/article/528/1), Ryan Zelnio, The Space Review, Jan 2006.

Shorter version: Commercial satellites moved from "Column A" (ok) to "Column B" (really bad) in 1999.  The ITAR rules for those existed way before then, have always had parts that are borderline or demonstrably insane, and hasn't changed much over several decades.  (I can personally attest that the ITAR-scam circus of the 90's makes this look positively sane and rational by comparison.)

Not that it does anything for NTRS, but take heart, it looks like commercial sats could be moving back to Commerce juristiction soon ("Column A").
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Patchouli on 04/01/2013 11:23 pm


Why weren't the files reviewed for ITAR in the first place?

Ummm...do you actually have any evidence that this stuff wasn't "reviewed for ITAR in the first place"? Other than the hearsay claims from Rep Wolf, a lot of which is stinking of bovine fecal matter about now?

~Jon
[/quote]

Pretty much the same thing I have to say about Rep Wolf's claims.


Did the rules of ITAR change over time? Were they in place when the documents were first posted?
Yes the ITAR rules have changed over time. Mostly in a kneejerk overreaction by some congressional Republicans during Clinton's time in office.

Suggest reading A short history of export control policy (http://www.thespacereview.com/article/528/1), Ryan Zelnio, The Space Review, Jan 2006.

Shorter version: Commercial satellites moved from "Column A" (ok) to "Column B" (really bad) in 1999.  The ITAR rules for those existed way before then, have always had parts that are borderline or demonstrably insane, and hasn't changed much over several decades.  (I can personally attest that the ITAR-scam circus of the 90's makes this look positively sane and rational by comparison.)

Not that it does anything for NTRS, but take heart, it looks like commercial sats could be moving back to Commerce juristiction soon ("Column A").


True it is border line insane so much so a contractor often will accept a less capable system to avoid dealing with ITAR rule.

It is good com sats are moving to column A as ITAR was absolutely devastating to the industry.

Launch vehicles though would have to be done on a case by case basis though specs should be considered ITAR free.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: ChileVerde on 04/01/2013 11:57 pm
Did the rules of ITAR change over time? Were they in place when the documents were first posted?

Yes the ITAR rules have changed over time. Mostly in a kneejerk overreaction by some congressional Republicans during Clinton's time in office.

~Jon

This is getting deeply political and I expect it will be condemned accordingly and disappeared sooner rather than later.

But, that said, I don't think the Congressional Republicans did the ITAR stuff in the late nineties as a kneejerk or an overreaction. They knew quite well what they were doing, which was to create a new threat to replace the USSR that they could exploit for domestic political purposes.

Probably they didn't foresee the dire consequences to the US satellite industry.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: jongoff on 04/02/2013 12:27 am
Why weren't the files reviewed for ITAR in the first place?

Ummm...do you actually have any evidence that this stuff wasn't "reviewed for ITAR in the first place"? Other than the hearsay claims from Rep Wolf, a lot of which is stinking of bovine fecal matter about now?

You mean other than the statement by Bolden? If all the documents had already been reviewed there would be no reason to shut down NTRS to review the risk, right? Or are you assuming that Bolden is just saying random words again? That's just as likely, I grant you.

I think it was more a case of "we're pretty sure we've covered this already, but just in case". Not a "oh we should've though of doing ITAR reviews."

Quote
As for hearsay, it's not just from Wolf.. I've heard from a lot of people that NASA has no ITAR review requirements to put slides and other reports up on NTRS.

The thing is if the slides were meant for public distribution before going up on NTRS, they would've been ITAR reviewed then.

I guess my problem is that even in aerospace, I bet that less than 5% of the engineers who handle ITAR related hardware really have a firm grasp of how it works, what is counted as "public domain" under ITAR, how the fundamental research "exemption" works, etc. So, when someone screams ITAR violation, I want to hear more details to see if it really is the case or if they just don't know how ITAR works any more than the most other engineers do.

BTW, not claiming to be in the 5% who truly grok it, just a bit more humble about my certainties about my interpretations of something as vague and internally contradictory as ITAR.

~Jon
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: JohnFornaro on 04/02/2013 12:46 am
Note that the Chinese guy was released and the American site stays shut down.

The internet giveth, and the internet taketh away.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: joek on 04/02/2013 02:34 am
I think it was more a case of "we're pretty sure we've covered this already, but just in case". Not a "oh we should've though of doing ITAR reviews."

I think that's right, especially given Wolf's demand:
Quote
Second: NASA should immediately take down all publicly available technical data sources until all documents that have not been subjected to export control review have received such a review and all controlled documents are removed from the system.

NASA could have responded with "We're sure we're squeaky clean Rep. Wolf! No action required!" (as Wolf waves the FBI investigation over their heads) or "Yes Sir Rep. Wolf! We'll take your suggestion and double check."  Discretion is the better part of valor.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 04/02/2013 02:39 am
NASA could have responded with "We're sure we're squeaky clean Rep. Wolf! No action required!" (as Wolf waves the FBI investigation over their heads) or "Yes Sir Rep. Wolf! We'll take your suggestion and double check."  Discretion is the better part of valor.

So they're either covering their asses or they've been breaking the law. Any other options?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 04/02/2013 02:47 am
Appeasing the guy who controls their funding. Most obvious one.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: joek on 04/02/2013 03:24 am
So they're either covering their asses or they've been breaking the law. Any other options?
They can do both can't they?  More seriously, CYA and deference to Wolf et. al. seems prudent, regardless of cause or outcome, of which only time will tell (and regarless of how much it may grate on or inconvenience some in the interim).
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 04/02/2013 03:26 am
So they're either covering their asses or they've been breaking the law. Any other options?
They can do both can't they?  More seriously, CYA and deference to Wolf et. al. seems prudent, regardless of cause or outcome, of which only time will tell (and regarless of how much it may grate on or inconvenience some in the interim).

Why ever reopen NTRS then?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: simonbp on 04/02/2013 03:36 am
Probably they didn't foresee the dire consequences to the US satellite industry.

By which you mean virtually murdering the US commercial launch industry and massive contraction of the satellite construction industry? It is amusing/depressing to hear certain politicians complain about regulation, and then not realize their "security" laws amount to the same thing (see the airline industry).

I do wonder if there is any deeper motivation behind this; is it just that Wolf wanted to claim he found a red under the bed?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: joek on 04/02/2013 03:49 am
So they're either covering their asses or they've been breaking the law. Any other options?
They can do both can't they?  More seriously, CYA and deference to Wolf et. al. seems prudent, regardless of cause or outcome, of which only time will tell (and regardless of how much it may grate on or inconvenience some in the interim).
Why ever reopen NTRS then?

No reason (did I suggest otherwise?), but I'll be happily surprised if it is.  My bet is NTRS won't be generally available at the level the general public previously enjoyed.  IMHO it will require an outcry of unimaginable proportions to restore it to its previous state.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: relyon on 04/02/2013 03:54 am
I do wonder if there is any deeper motivation behind this; is it just that Wolf wanted to claim he found a red under the bed?

That's my take. Maybe Rep. Wolf facies being seen as a modern Joseph McCarthy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy) or HUAC chairman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Un-American_Activities_Committee#Chairmen)? Not the sort of legacy I'd want, but HMMV.

Bob
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: JohnFornaro on 04/02/2013 01:02 pm
I do wonder if there is any deeper motivation behind this; is it just that Wolf wanted to claim he found a red under the bed?

A plausible deeper motivation would be anecdotal support for my shy and tentative theory that, for all intents and purposes, we have been effectively kept on planet.

There could be an argument made that we need a 150 ton SLS to have the capability to send a robotic probe to Europa to perform an undecisive search for life.  NTRS, particularly for the public, would not really be necessary for this, since they already know what to do.

Perhaps the latter is a better approach.  My continued suggestions to start building a lunar base, so as to permanently support a martian base, with the existing and planned, already sufficient launch capacity, technical and industrial base have not been met with any support.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: RanulfC on 04/02/2013 01:17 pm
I do wonder if there is any deeper motivation behind this; is it just that Wolf wanted to claim he found a red under the bed?

That's my take. Maybe Rep. Wolf facies being seen as a modern Joseph McCarthy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy) or HUAC chairman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Un-American_Activities_Committee#Chairmen)? Not the sort of legacy I'd want, but HMMV.

Bob
No that would be Ted Cruz who's wanting to channel McCarthy's ghost for a living :)

Randy
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Patchouli on 04/02/2013 05:40 pm
Probably they didn't foresee the dire consequences to the US satellite industry.

By which you mean virtually murdering the US commercial launch industry and massive contraction of the satellite construction industry? It is amusing/depressing to hear certain politicians complain about regulation, and then not realize their "security" laws amount to the same thing (see the airline industry).

I do wonder if there is any deeper motivation behind this; is it just that Wolf wanted to claim he found a red under the bed?

I think the 1999 revision of ITAR was partly responsible for the aerospace down turn of the early 2000s.


I do wonder if there is any deeper motivation behind this; is it just that Wolf wanted to claim he found a red under the bed?

That's my take. Maybe Rep. Wolf facies being seen as a modern Joseph McCarthy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy) or HUAC chairman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Un-American_Activities_Committee#Chairmen)? Not the sort of legacy I'd want, but HMMV.

Bob

You could call it tilting at windmills.

The whole thing could be summed up with a comic of Rep Wolf dressed as Don Quixote.

Cold war communist scares,post 9-11 terrorism scares,the Spanish Inquisition and Salem witch hunts it's all the same sorta mindset behind them.

The names may change but the underlaying theme is always the same.


Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 04/02/2013 08:00 pm
No reason (did I suggest otherwise?), but I'll be happily surprised if it is.  My bet is NTRS won't be generally available at the level the general public previously enjoyed.  IMHO it will require an outcry of unimaginable proportions to restore it to its previous state.
I too would be surprised if NTRS ever returns.  There are examples of other terrific government Internet assets that disappeared, promising to return after being reconfigured, but never did.  The Internet they were originally created for no longer exists.  There is likely another Internet, one most of us can't see, where they may reappear.

 - Ed Kyle
Except remember that all sorts of folks at NASA like to have access to the public data in NTRS when they aren't at work. It's also very helpful for scientists and engineers writing PhD or Masters theses. There may be internal pressure at NASA to open NTRS because it's certainly convenient to have access to it at the coffee shop.

By increasing the stuff that is under the banner of "secret" or export-sensitive just by default (not because of the actual content), you've very likely reduced overall security, since more people will then require security clearance to do their job, and they'll have to exercise that security clearance more often, giving a much larger security footprint that is much easier for someone to exploit and get access to truly sensitive material.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Patchouli on 04/02/2013 08:17 pm
No reason (did I suggest otherwise?), but I'll be happily surprised if it is.  My bet is NTRS won't be generally available at the level the general public previously enjoyed.  IMHO it will require an outcry of unimaginable proportions to restore it to its previous state.
I too would be surprised if NTRS ever returns.  There are examples of other terrific government Internet assets that disappeared, promising to return after being reconfigured, but never did.  The Internet they were originally created for no longer exists.  There is likely another Internet, one most of us can't see, where they may reappear.

 - Ed Kyle
Except remember that all sorts of folks at NASA like to have access to the public data in NTRS when they aren't at work. It's also very helpful for scientists and engineers writing PhD or Masters theses. There may be internal pressure at NASA to open NTRS because it's certainly convenient to have access to it at the coffee shop.

By increasing the stuff that is under the banner of "secret" or export-sensitive just by default (not because of the actual content), you've very likely reduced overall security, since more people will then require security clearance to do their job, and they'll have to exercise that security clearance more often, giving a much larger security footprint that is much easier for someone to exploit and get access to truly sensitive material.

It's definitely bad from an educational perspective.
I wonder how many engineering students read NTRS articles.
It kinda reminds me of the ATF and DEA's war against chemistry with similar negative effects though this was damaging to even high school level education.
US schools have a hard enough time competing as it is.

There are few things that anger me more then the repression of the dissemination and the free exchange of knowledge over a mostly imagined threat.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 04/02/2013 08:51 pm
No reason (did I suggest otherwise?), but I'll be happily surprised if it is.  My bet is NTRS won't be generally available at the level the general public previously enjoyed.  IMHO it will require an outcry of unimaginable proportions to restore it to its previous state.
I too would be surprised if NTRS ever returns.  There are examples of other terrific government Internet assets that disappeared, promising to return after being reconfigured, but never did.  The Internet they were originally created for no longer exists.  There is likely another Internet, one most of us can't see, where they may reappear.

 - Ed Kyle
Except remember that all sorts of folks at NASA like to have access to the public data in NTRS when they aren't at work. It's also very helpful for scientists and engineers writing PhD or Masters theses. There may be internal pressure at NASA to open NTRS because it's certainly convenient to have access to it at the coffee shop.

They already can. JSC has had VPN for years, pretty sure the other centers support it too.
I am not surprised, but VPN has a vulnerability: If you hack the system you've installed the VPN on, it's easy to log the keyboard (and screen and mouse) and get the password.

This is a general point, by making more stuff require the VPN, you're providing a bigger target, increasing the risk a bit.

This is why there should always be pressure /against/ needlessly taking away public material. The more people who require VPN accounts, the more often they use it, the greater the chance some vulnerability will be found and exploited. If there's virtually no security threat from the already public material, then you're just making the security system worse (even if just slightly worse) by restricting it again.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Jim on 04/03/2013 03:49 pm
Many NTRS files were still available via. Google quick look, etc..

Until yesterday.

The Feds got to Google, obviously.  I hope you all got what you wanted while you could.

 - Ed Kyle

Obliviously, you are joking.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Robotbeat on 04/03/2013 04:06 pm
There's a process for telling Google to clear the cache. Doesn't have to be some scary gov't action. But this whole thing is still incredibly dumb.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: AnalogMan on 04/03/2013 08:15 pm
There's a process for telling Google to clear the cache. Doesn't have to be some scary gov't action. But this whole thing is still incredibly dumb.
Here is just one example. 

I just did a search for the following document, which is the "Flash Flight Report" for NASA's Atlas Agena 26 launch of March 4, 1968.  This is a document that I downloaded just a few days ago.  It was never even classified.

19680019199_1968019199.pdf

Google now returns the following:

"Your search - 19680019199_1968019199.pdf - did not match any documents."

As if it never existed.  Along with untold numbers of thousands more documents.  History, along with a large part of the Internet itself, simply erased.   

I find that to be quite "scary", however it happened.   

 - Ed Kyle

If you try pasting the following into Google your worst fears are confirmed:

filetype:pdf site:ntrs.nasa.gov

Try it in Yahoo and you will get at least 1000 documents (but no options to view any of them!)

Bing gives 24,700 results.
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: MP99 on 04/03/2013 08:44 pm
Obliviously, you are joking.

Assuming that was a typo, it was superb.

Cheers, Martin
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 04/03/2013 11:17 pm
It was never even classified.

Why do you continue to make these redundant statements about how things were classified?

Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 04/04/2013 12:56 am
It was not classified (many NTRS documents were once classified, but had subsequently been declassified).

.. and? It's irrelevant to whether something contains exportable material or not.

Quote
It was not export restricted.

Cool, you have the legal paperwork to back that up of course, right?

Quote
It was freely available.   Until now.   

That's not evidence that it didn't fall under ITAR. The law is written such that it probably does and NASA was just breaking the law by making it available.

This thread just keeps going around in circles. We all know it's a horrible law.. what's the point of throwing out example after example?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: QuantumG on 04/04/2013 01:29 am
Do you really believe that NASA broke laws with NTRS?

I already said they did above.

Quote
I don't.

Good for you.

Quote
This document in particular cannot possibly violate any export law.  Read it.

Again, you have the legal paperwork to back that up right?
Title: Re: NASA Contractor Arrested for Espionage. NTRS taken Offline
Post by: Chris Bergin on 04/04/2013 02:01 am
This is just silly now.

Locked.