Author Topic: Orbital ATK to become sole provider of SRBs for ULA's Atlas V and Vulcan  (Read 24210 times)

Offline MarcAlain

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Hold the press, the rumor mill has ramped up again. TBH this post should be moved to the now locked thread concerning the potential offer/merger.

Exclusive: Aerojet weighs higher offer for Lockheed-Boeing venture - sources
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/24/us-lockheedmartin-boeing-aerojet-idUSKCN0RO2OG20150924
"Orbital ATK is not in that business" I'm not sure how much stock can be put in this article.

EDIT: NEVER Copy and paste copyrighted material here - Chris.
« Last Edit: 09/25/2015 10:18 pm by Chris Bergin »

Offline kevin-rf

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Well, Orbital is trying to break into the Atlas V business ;)
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Offline MarcAlain

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Well, Orbital is trying to break into the Atlas V business ;)

Trying? They got it as far as I'm aware.

Also, they make the SLS boosters, they are the company that made the STS boosters, Titan IV solids, and many others. They are THE solid booster company.

Offline russianhalo117

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Well, Orbital is trying to break into the Atlas V business ;)

Trying? They got it as far as I'm aware.

Also, they make the SLS boosters, they are the company that made the STS boosters, Titan IV solids, and many others. They are THE solid booster company.
not to mention OA have way more SRM products than AR and significantly out manufacture AR in terms of contracts. What AR is trying to do is delay its end and fate of filing bankruptcy and being merged involuntarily into OA.

Offline kevin-rf

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It was a joke on my part, and they do not "have" Atlas V until they start weaving carbon fiber. Till then they just power everyone else. The flame trench has not belched...
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Offline TrevorMonty

Well, Orbital is trying to break into the Atlas V business ;)

Trying? They got it as far as I'm aware.

Also, they make the SLS boosters, they are the company that made the STS boosters, Titan IV solids, and many others. They are THE solid booster company.
not to mention OA have way more SRM products than AR and significantly out manufacture AR in terms of contracts. What AR is trying to do is delay its end and fate of filing bankruptcy and being merged involuntarily into OA.
I hadn't really considered a Orbital Aerojet merger before but it has merit. OA has means to finance AR1 plus LV to use them.

A new company name might be called for, the alternative is OAAJR.

Offline MarcAlain

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An AR-1 powered Antares II would be very interesting.

Offline a_langwich

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For configurations like the 411 or 421 though, you would have to hold on to the solids for 30 to 50 seconds or so after burnout, depending on spacecraft mass, etc.
EEeeps, surely that's a typo.

To be a fly on the wall for the meeting when the tradeoffs on cone vs. the current design would have been interesting.

Not a typo.  50 sec sounds about right for the 411 configuration.  It's not a huge hit to performance (<150 lbs depending on the lofting/orbit, not so much the SV mass), but lost performance nevertheless.

But you are trading that against the reduction in drag provided by the asymmetric nose cones, right?  And is there any effect on tank wall loads by shock wave impingement?

And could you get the early separation benefit with asymmetric nose cones simply by designing your solid motor separation mechanism to achieve the necessary clearances?

I suspect it's a "six of one, half a dozen of another" set of tradeoffs, like the winglet vs wing extension in airplanes.

Offline john smith 19

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Hold the press, the rumor mill has ramped up again. TBH this post should be moved to the now locked thread concerning the potential offer/merger.

Exclusive: Aerojet weighs higher offer for Lockheed-Boeing venture - sources
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/24/us-lockheedmartin-boeing-aerojet-idUSKCN0RO2OG20150924
"Orbital ATK is not in that business" I'm not sure how much stock can be put in this article.

EDIT: NEVER Copy and paste copyrighted material here - Chris.

Note this.

Last year ULA asked AJH to invest $300m for a new engine to replace the RD180.

Instead of accepting that their business was changing and they should invest in the future to protect their revenue stream from a company they already have a fairly good working relationship with they said no and started lobbying whining  to Congress for the money instead.

Then it looks like they started talking to bankers to raise the cash to buy ULA so they could ensure that whatever happened they would have be chosen as the engine supplier.

ULA operates under quite severe constraints set by its parents and is trying to adapt to a slowly (but radically) changing business environment but AFAIK AJH has no such constraints yet seems to be trying to deny anything is happening and want to continue "Business As Usual."

With ULA switching their solids supplier, AR-1 still looking like it's mostly Power Points, the BE-4 have passed it's PDR and the BE-3 and XCOR test engines showing other people can do LH2 upper stage engines I think it's clear this is not going to happen.
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Online oldAtlas_Eguy

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There was a comment in the article of a possibility of a company breakup if a consolidation and assurance of future work was not accomplished. It was not clear which company they were actually commenting about but I think AJR was the focus of this comment.

If AJR is broken up and the parts are sold off what would the parts be and who would buy them?

My speculation is that:
1) Hydrolox engines (RS-25,RL-10 and RS-68A) even though these engines have a unknown future past 2020 their assets (IP and test facilities access) would be valuable to only one other company, BO who is also working on engines of similar type. This portion of the business is currently active but has an expected expiration date (DIV deactivated in 2019-2021 and RL-10 being possibly replaced in 2023 or earlier) except for the RS-25 assuming the SLS is funded past 2018. (NOTE the RL-10 may continue if SLS is funded as the engine used in the SLS US).
2) Solid motors would would go to Orbital ATK as the only interested party in solids IP and physical assets to do with solids. Although this portion could be held and not sold because it does have some future just not with ULA.
3) The KeroLox property (AR-1 included) would be a highly cut rate since there seems to be no or very little future activity here other than as a possible broker of Russian engines and even there they may loose that out to someone else. The real question would be who would buy this portion? For most out there this portion may effectively be worthless and even have costs far and above any possible revenues such property could make. Meaning that pieces of this part may be sold and other parts left to rust.
[Edit Added this paragraph:]
4) I forgot about the store-able prop engines used for RCS of stages and satellites as well as some larger engines for escape and orbital maneuvering manufactured by AJR. The interesting part is that many of the parts are actually made by Ball Aerospace. Making Ball an interested party for purchasing this portion of the business. Many of the very small thrusters built by Ball is actually sold directly to satellite manufacturers.

If Orbital buys the solid portion of AJR, this in effect would make Orbital ATK the only practical supplier of solid rocket motors.

This failing to be competitive in a changing and more aggressively competitive industry points to a dim future for AJR. Whereas Orbital ATK seems to understand this environment and is succeeding.

Edit: cleared up a statement.
« Last Edit: 09/28/2015 04:56 pm by oldAtlas_Eguy »

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Well, Orbital is trying to break into the Atlas V business ;)

Trying? They got it as far as I'm aware.

Also, they make the SLS boosters, they are the company that made the STS boosters, Titan IV solids, and many others. They are THE solid booster company.
not to mention OA have way more SRM products than AR and significantly out manufacture AR in terms of contracts. What AR is trying to do is delay its end and fate of filing bankruptcy and being merged involuntarily into OA.

Yes and no. AR's got a similarly diverse set of products/services. The problem with M&A on such is in unweaving the parts/dependencies (not only "technologic" or "manufacturing/assembly lines", but financially). One can bring up ATK's sporting goods diversification that did not follow into OA for humorous example.

The defense related businesses are, like ATK, reasonably effective as standalone. However, like ATK, these are very cyclical, like in other portions of aerospace, so you need other sides of the business to compensate, thus diversification.

Its more about what an acquirer needs longer term (and why), against what a seller does not need longer term (and why) that parts go elsewhere. In particular, the difficulty in customers for LRE/solids motors as the guiding light.

Some, like BO, have very specific needs for LRE satisfied in house, and embellished by certain outside interests (ULA). Those appear to be "spoken for".

OA is a bit more uncertain about the LRE business, and getting too into SLS projects may be an even greater danger (e.g. financial risks of being an "under performer").

AR is what it is, because of history and lack of options in its eyes. Or, in mine, choosing poorly decades ago.

I'd read this as more of an idle thread to coax more out of congress for "same old, same old" to continue, as a more passive form of the Colorado reps anti-SX shakedown to attempt to favor ULA/AR.

Offline Prober

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Well, Orbital is trying to break into the Atlas V business ;)

Trying? They got it as far as I'm aware.

Also, they make the SLS boosters, they are the company that made the STS boosters, Titan IV solids, and many others. They are THE solid booster company.
not to mention OA have way more SRM products than AR and significantly out manufacture AR in terms of contracts. What AR is trying to do is delay its end and fate of filing bankruptcy and being merged involuntarily into OA.

Yes and no. AR's got a similarly diverse set of products/services. The problem with M&A on such is in unweaving the parts/dependencies (not only "technologic" or "manufacturing/assembly lines", but financially). One can bring up ATK's sporting goods diversification that did not follow into OA for humorous example.

The defense related businesses are, like ATK, reasonably effective as standalone. However, like ATK, these are very cyclical, like in other portions of aerospace, so you need other sides of the business to compensate, thus diversification.

Its more about what an acquirer needs longer term (and why), against what a seller does not need longer term (and why) that parts go elsewhere. In particular, the difficulty in customers for LRE/solids motors as the guiding light.

Some, like BO, have very specific needs for LRE satisfied in house, and embellished by certain outside interests (ULA). Those appear to be "spoken for".

OA is a bit more uncertain about the LRE business, and getting too into SLS projects may be an even greater danger (e.g. financial risks of being an "under performer").

AR is what it is, because of history and lack of options in its eyes. Or, in mine, choosing poorly decades ago.

I'd read this as more of an idle thread to coax more out of congress for "same old, same old" to continue, as a more passive form of the Colorado reps anti-SX shakedown to attempt to favor ULA/AR.


I posted this article and it should be a "must read" for ARJ. The Power of 3D Printing to Accelerate NASA Plans for Manned Mars Trip
http://3dprint.com/98109/3d-print-for-manned-mars-trip/

This line says it all.....
It comes from the Engineer working at Marshall

"We now have a technology that could help make designs more efficient, more reliable and less expensive,” Robertson noted. “This could lower the barriers to entry for non-traditional commercial partners to compete with more traditional partners and result in better, more affordable engines.”"

You see the early start of this with BO, SpaceX etc.  Sad thing is that AJR has the "golden jewels"  ::)
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Offline TrevorMonty

Well, Orbital is trying to break into the Atlas V business ;)

Trying? They got it as far as I'm aware.

Also, they make the SLS boosters, they are the company that made the STS boosters, Titan IV solids, and many others. They are THE solid booster company.
not to mention OA have way more SRM products than AR and significantly out manufacture AR in terms of contracts. What AR is trying to do is delay its end and fate of filing bankruptcy and being merged involuntarily into OA.

Yes and no. AR's got a similarly diverse set of products/services. The problem with M&A on such is in unweaving the parts/dependencies (not only "technologic" or "manufacturing/assembly lines", but financially). One can bring up ATK's sporting goods diversification that did not follow into OA for humorous example.

The defense related businesses are, like ATK, reasonably effective as standalone. However, like ATK, these are very cyclical, like in other portions of aerospace, so you need other sides of the business to compensate, thus diversification.

Its more about what an acquirer needs longer term (and why), against what a seller does not need longer term (and why) that parts go elsewhere. In particular, the difficulty in customers for LRE/solids motors as the guiding light.

Some, like BO, have very specific needs for LRE satisfied in house, and embellished by certain outside interests (ULA). Those appear to be "spoken for".

OA is a bit more uncertain about the LRE business, and getting too into SLS projects may be an even greater danger (e.g. financial risks of being an "under performer").

AR is what it is, because of history and lack of options in its eyes. Or, in mine, choosing poorly decades ago.

I'd read this as more of an idle thread to coax more out of congress for "same old, same old" to continue, as a more passive form of the Colorado reps anti-SX shakedown to attempt to favor ULA/AR.


I posted this article and it should be a "must read" for ARJ. The Power of 3D Printing to Accelerate NASA Plans for Manned Mars Trip
http://3dprint.com/98109/3d-print-for-manned-mars-trip/

This line says it all.....
It comes from the Engineer working at Marshall

"We now have a technology that could help make designs more efficient, more reliable and less expensive,” Robertson noted. “This could lower the barriers to entry for non-traditional commercial partners to compete with more traditional partners and result in better, more affordable engines.”"

You see the early start of this with BO, SpaceX etc.  Sad thing is that AJR has the "golden jewels"  ::)
NASA have stated the design information for this engine is available to domestic companies. OA could pick it up and develop their own upper stage engine, half work has already been done by NASA.

Offline john smith 19

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NASA have stated the design information for this engine is available to domestic companies. OA could pick it up and develop their own upper stage engine, half work has already been done by NASA.
What engine are you talking about?

This is the turbo pump for a 30 000 test system.

That's an upper stage at best.
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Offline russianhalo117

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NASA have stated the design information for this engine is available to domestic companies. OA could pick it up and develop their own upper stage engine, half work has already been done by NASA.
What engine are you talking about?

This is the turbo pump for a 30 000 test system.

That's an upper stage at best.

This thread is solely about SRMs NOT LREs
« Last Edit: 10/02/2015 07:43 pm by russianhalo117 »

Offline sdsds

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I noticed in photos showing stacking of the Morelos 3 launch vehicle that the Atlas SRBs are handled on the ground without their canted nose cones. So those are clearly easily separable from the rest of the SRB. With the idea that they will be moving away from that design, has ULA shown any indication that for risk reduction they might test symmetrical nose cones on an otherwise standard Atlas flight?
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Offline Newton_V

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I noticed in photos showing stacking of the Morelos 3 launch vehicle that the Atlas SRBs are handled on the ground without their canted nose cones. So those are clearly easily separable from the rest of the SRB. With the idea that they will be moving away from that design, has ULA shown any indication that for risk reduction they might test symmetrical nose cones on an otherwise standard Atlas flight?

I don't think the cones will happen on Atlas, but some of the conservatism for the jettison constraint might be relaxed for missions that need the extra performance.  You'll see the biggest gain on the 411, then 421, and so on, there's only a couple 411s on the manifest, a couple 421s, 431s,...
I don't know what the benefit is for the 422 (CST-100), but I'm sure it's been looked at.

Offline john smith 19

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This thread is solely about SRMs NOT LREs
I was responding to another post  RE 3d printing.

Obviously the idea of 3d printing for an SRB would be even more OT for this thread.
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline Ronsmytheiii

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« Last Edit: 12/19/2018 07:17 pm by Ronsmytheiii »

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