Author Topic: What's Happening at Bigelow?  (Read 421837 times)

Offline cuddihy

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #120 on: 01/20/2010 02:36 pm »
Nice Bigelow article on Space.com

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/private-space-stations-bigelow-100120.html

Sounds like he is shooting for the moon.

"Beyond low-Earth orbit, Bigelow Aerospace also has its sights on expandable space habitats for Lagrangian Point L1, partway between the sun and the Earth."

""If we can deploy and gang together modules in low-Earth orbit, you can do it in L1...and you are 85 percent of the way to the moon,"" Bigelow said. In fact, one scenario Bigelow Aerospace has already blueprinted is the soft landing of a trio of attached BA-330 modules — including astronauts — on the moon."

Hmm...that would require a fuel depot at L1...inflatable fuel depot anyone?

na, jk. It would make no sense to do an inflatable fuel depot, as the inflatable benefits would be lost in the  inefficiencies of non-cryo propellants.

Offline ChefPat

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #121 on: 01/20/2010 03:07 pm »


"Beyond low-Earth orbit, Bigelow Aerospace also has its sights on expandable space habitats for Lagrangian Point L1, partway between the sun and the Earth."

Is this a typo? The article I read says; "Beyond low-Earth orbit, Bigelow Aerospace also has its sights on expandable space habitats for Lagrangian Point L1, partway between the moon and the Earth"
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Offline mmeijeri

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #122 on: 01/20/2010 03:07 pm »
It would make no sense to do an inflatable fuel depot, as the inflatable benefits would be lost in the  inefficiencies of non-cryo propellants.

For EDSs, not for landers. But on the other hand, if you have a refuelable lander it can serve as a depot and you don't need the inflatables anymore. Besides, storable propellants are nice and dense.
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Offline jongoff

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #123 on: 01/20/2010 03:24 pm »
Sounds like the company is less focused on near term development, and more on the long term stuff.

Well, a lot of that is old news.  I saw representations of the lunar lander concept during a tour of their facility something like five years ago.

That said, he can't really execute at all on his business plan without domestic crew launchers in the pipe, so it might actually make sense for him to go a bit long-term on other stuff to keep his team busy while he waits for the commercial crew capabilities to catch up.  It doesn't do him any much to have his LEO station stuff complete and sitting in storage for five years because transportation to reach the station isn't ready yet.

~Jon

Offline jongoff

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #124 on: 01/20/2010 03:28 pm »
Hmm...that would require a fuel depot at L1...inflatable fuel depot anyone?

na, jk. It would make no sense to do an inflatable fuel depot, as the inflatable benefits would be lost in the  inefficiencies of non-cryo propellants.

You don't necessarily have to do non-cryo propellants.  One of my original ideas for a depot (before I hit on the current single-launch dual-fluid depot concept that the ULA guys independently came up with) was to use inflatable propellant bladders inside a bigelow module.  There are some plastic films that are good down to cryo temperatures, and if you have insulation inside the bladders between the walls and the actual liquids, it might work.  I began to realize though that the heat-leak into those would be pretty bad, and would probably require very aggressive active cooling....naw, I like the dual-fluid depot concept better.  Single launch, preintegrated, 75mT of LOX/LH2.  Even more if you were doing LOX/CH4.

~Jon

Offline kch

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #125 on: 01/20/2010 03:47 pm »

"Beyond low-Earth orbit, Bigelow Aerospace also has its sights on expandable space habitats for Lagrangian Point L1, partway between the sun and the Earth."

Is this a typo? The article I read says; "Beyond low-Earth orbit, Bigelow Aerospace also has its sights on expandable space habitats for Lagrangian Point L1, partway between the moon and the Earth"

The article had been edited by the time you (and I) read it -- check the first comment & the reply to it.  There are, of course, two L1 points near Earth -- EML-1 (which was the one intended) and SEL-1 (which was the one originally described).  :)

Offline infocat13

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #126 on: 01/20/2010 03:53 pm »
Bigalow space station at L-1 or L-2 as a government purchased system.Government gets it there.The ULA fuel depot would be hiding in the shade of the Bigalow modules.
I am a member of the side mount amazing people universe however I can get excited over the EELV exploration architecture amazing people universe.Anything else is budgetary hog wash
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Offline mmeijeri

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #127 on: 01/20/2010 04:10 pm »
You don't necessarily have to do non-cryo propellants.

Even though I am a vocal proponent of storable propellants as a stepping stone to commercial development of space, let me agree with Jon here, though - as in my previous post - for a different reason than the one given in the post I replied to.

I have no strong opinions on whether commercial endeavours should use storable propellants. Commercial exploration activities will do whatever seems most convenient to them. The argument for starting with storable propellants for government programs is that it would maximise the benefit to commercial development of space at no cost to exploration. This is because such an approach would minimise development cost, risk and time. Refuelable storable landers give all the benefits of full cryogenic depots that matter for the next twenty years and maybe more, both to commercial development of space and exploration. I know I'm in a small minority on this point. It does seem a point that is often (though not universally) overlooked. It's ironic that an approach designed to further the cause of commercial development of space does not apply to fully commercial activities in space themselves.

Jon gives some good alternative precursors to full cryogenic depots in a highly recommended recent post on his equally highly recommended blog, but they would require sacrificing capability and/or safety, a weakness from which storable landers would not suffer. Those weaknesses certainly aren't show stoppers, but it's good to know they can be avoided. Just as we don't have to concede the point that large payload fairings or large throw weight are crucial (as opposed to somewhat desirable), we don't have to concede the points that HLV allows for earlier or more capable exploration. It just ain't so. The approach Jon sketches might very well be close to optimal for early purely commercial moon missions though. Ironically, what it wouldn't do is to attack one of the big hurdles to commercial development of space, cost to orbit. Synergy with government funded exploration would allow for that.

Conversely the impact of a potential Bigelow station at L1 on government exploration would likely be enormous. If Bigelow manages to go beyond LEO before NASA does, then that will likely require great changes at NASA. It might then make more sense for NASA to focus on rigid landers (either in house or externally procured) and to leave habs and inflatable technology in general to Bigelow and other commercial providers. This too would be synergy, and also a case of technology transfer since inflatable technology was developed by NASA itself, not Bigelow.

In either case what's optimal for one player might not be optimal for the other, though each following their own way would enhance the goals of commercial development of space and exploration. That would be true synergy.
« Last Edit: 01/20/2010 09:04 pm by mmeijeri »
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Offline jabe

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #128 on: 01/20/2010 05:41 pm »
I'm curious about life support for these things..  They must be a complicated piece of machinery! do they outsource it or have they made their own.
cheers
jb
BTW how much research have they done on the iss if any on using plants as a supplement to food as well as means of a hobby during "downtime" and it useful to remove CO2

Online docmordrid

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #129 on: 01/20/2010 06:54 pm »
According to Paragon Space Development's page they did work on the Genesis modules pressure system, so perhaps that relationship has evolved. 

http://www.paragonsdc.com/paragon_projects_09.php

EDIT: the bio for their CSO Lance Bush contains this;

Quote
Sixteen years later, Paragon is busy building parts for the thermal control system on NASA’s Orion Crew Exploration Vehicle, helping design the U.S. space agency’s next-generation spacesuit as part of Oceaneering International’s team and providing life-support expertise to multiple commercial firms, including Space Exploration Technologies (SpaceX) and Bigelow Aerospace.
« Last Edit: 01/20/2010 06:59 pm by docmordrid »
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Offline cuddihy

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #130 on: 01/20/2010 06:55 pm »
I'm curious about life support for these things..  They must be a complicated piece of machinery! do they outsource it or have they made their own.
cheers
jb
BTW how much research have they done on the iss if any on using plants as a supplement to food as well as means of a hobby during "downtime" and it useful to remove CO2

sigh.

Answer to #1:http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/

answer to #2:http://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Anasa.gov+growing+plants+iss&form=QBRE&qs=n&sc=8-28

When are we going to get a "Report this poster as someone who refuses to do the most basic googling prior to posting" button?

Offline jabe

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #131 on: 01/20/2010 07:23 pm »

When are we going to get a "Report this poster as someone who refuses to do the most basic googling prior to posting" button?
Guilty as charged.. had a lazy moment..where is that delete button... dam...
jb

Offline SpacexULA

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #132 on: 01/20/2010 08:12 pm »

When are we going to get a "Report this poster as someone who refuses to do the most basic googling prior to posting" button?
Guilty as charged.. had a lazy moment..where is that delete button... dam...
jb

Both are beside the Insert button.  Stop it. ;)
« Last Edit: 01/20/2010 08:17 pm by SpacexULA »
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Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #133 on: 01/21/2010 06:10 am »
Bigalow space station at L-1 or L-2 as a government purchased system.Government gets it there.The ULA fuel depot would be hiding in the shade of the Bigalow modules.

If the propellant depot has an in space control room then ULA/Shell/BP/etc. may wish to put the control room inside the main space station.  That is something Bigelow can discus with the fuel company and NASA.

Offline jongoff

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #134 on: 01/21/2010 07:11 am »
Jon gives some good alternative precursors to full cryogenic depots in a highly recommended recent post on his equally highly recommended blog, but they would require sacrificing capability and/or safety, a weakness from which storable landers would not suffer.

Martijn, FWIW that post of mine wasn't about cryogenic depots or landers--in fact, I didn't say anything about what propulsion system the landers would use.  They could just as easily be cryogenic ones as storables.  But discussion of that (and my new post on the concept) probably belongs somewhere else--either in Advanced Concepts or Exploration Alternatives.

~Jon

Offline mmeijeri

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #135 on: 01/21/2010 12:53 pm »
Will answer there and limit my replies here to what applies specifically to Bigelow.

A Bigelow station at L1 could be a game changer, especially if Bigelow goes beyond LEO before NASA does. Any kind of propellant transfer at a Lagrange point will also be a game changer. It doesn't look as if a Bigelow hab itself is very useful as a depot though. It could still be very useful to have it colocated with a depot or depot precursor.
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Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #136 on: 01/21/2010 01:46 pm »
Will answer there and limit my replies here to what applies specifically to Bigelow.

A Bigelow station at L1 could be a game changer, especially if Bigelow goes beyond LEO before NASA does. Any kind of propellant transfer at a Lagrange point will also be a game changer. It doesn't look as if a Bigelow hab itself is very useful as a depot though. It could still be very useful to have it colocated with a depot or depot precursor.

This is getting on for being a mini motorway service station in space (without the shop).

A resupply system will be needed, the extra delta-v to get to L1/L2 will need investigating, probably in a different thread.

Edit:  I have created thread Viability of spacestation at EML1 or EML2 for this.
« Last Edit: 01/21/2010 03:26 pm by A_M_Swallow »

Offline ChefPat

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #137 on: 01/21/2010 02:56 pm »
Any kind of propellant transfer at a Lagrange point will also be a game changer. It doesn't look as if a Bigelow hab itself is very useful as a depot though. It could still be very useful to have it colocated with a depot or depot precursor.
Why couldn't a Bigelow hab be designed specifically to be a propellant depot?
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Offline mmeijeri

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #138 on: 01/21/2010 03:00 pm »
It probably could be, but would there be much benefit? An ACES-based depot would probably be better for cryogenics and a refuelable lander could serve as an interim depot for storable propellant.
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Offline jongoff

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Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
« Reply #139 on: 01/22/2010 06:19 am »
Any kind of propellant transfer at a Lagrange point will also be a game changer. It doesn't look as if a Bigelow hab itself is very useful as a depot though. It could still be very useful to have it colocated with a depot or depot precursor.
Why couldn't a Bigelow hab be designed specifically to be a propellant depot?

Would.YOU.want.to.live.next.to.big.tanks.of.high.power.rocket.fuel?

If you're going to the Moon or Mars, how much of a choice do you really have?  :-)  Seriously though, there are some pretty reasonable precautions you can take on a propellant depot to *drastically* reduce the risk of explosions or deflagrations--the simplest being to physically separate the fuel and oxidizer with a well-vented region between the two.

~Jon

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