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Commercial and US Government Launch Vehicles => Commercial Space Flight General => Topic started by: david1971 on 01/17/2009 02:24 pm

Title: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: david1971 on 01/17/2009 02:24 pm
Their timeline had a complete Galaxy by now.  Have there been any peeps about development?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: 8900 on 01/17/2009 02:29 pm
Galaxy will not be launched due to increasing cost of LV
instead they will make Galaxy for ground testing bed of life support system
they will directly go ahead to building Sundancer, which will be man rated, and possibly will be occuipied by crew
Bigelow also said that they would like to attach a node module, a propulsion module and later full-scale BA330 to the Sundancer module to make it a Commercial Space complex ready for various kind of uses
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: david1971 on 01/17/2009 03:02 pm
Even with the non-launch, in theory they were ground-testing Galaxy in late 2008.  Did their schedule slip? 

(For all the bashing SpaceX got for their "Hey, look, it's a rocket" stunt over the past few weeks, it is much more fun for us to see mileposts being reached, even if they are artificial ones.  Of course, you don't get to orbit by making things fun for us...)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: bad_astra on 01/18/2009 04:01 pm
Even with the non-launch, in theory they were ground-testing Galaxy in late 2008.  Did their schedule slip? 
 

Why would they ground test something they won't be launching?

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: nacnud on 01/18/2009 04:09 pm
To see if they built it right.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mlorrey on 01/19/2009 12:16 am
Their timeline had a complete Galaxy by now.  Have there been any peeps about development?

Yeah they announced after the second Genesis module went up that they were not needing to launch the next larger size. I expect they are waiting for F9 to prove feasible to put the manned model up.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: SpacemanSpiff on 02/06/2009 05:12 am
They are still trying to hire enough people to actually come close to producing a Sundancer by 2012 or so...It is 2 yrs now that they have not been able to hire a Senior Life Support System Manager (and that is just the tip of the iceberg on hiring woes)...a pretty essential position for an on-orbit space habitat.

Houston Office Update: finally was completely closed about a month ago. There are currently no operations or employees at the Houston location.

A large company has recently inhabited the old SpaceHab/Astrium location next door. Never saw that many cars in that parking lot before; no sign out front yet as to what company it is that has moved in.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mlorrey on 02/06/2009 08:46 am
They are still trying to hire enough people to actually come close to producing a Sundancer by 2012 or so...It is 2 yrs now that they have not been able to hire a Senior Life Support System Manager (and that is just the tip of the iceberg on hiring woes)...a pretty essential position for an on-orbit space habitat.

Houston Office Update: finally was completely closed about a month ago. There are currently no operations or employees at the Houston location.

A large company has recently inhabited the old SpaceHab/Astrium location next door. Never saw that many cars in that parking lot before; no sign out front yet as to what company it is that has moved in.

Are you saying Bigelow has closed or moved?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 02/06/2009 02:09 pm
They are still trying to hire enough people to actually come close to producing a Sundancer by 2012 or so...It is 2 yrs now that they have not been able to hire a Senior Life Support System Manager (and that is just the tip of the iceberg on hiring woes)...a pretty essential position for an on-orbit space habitat.

Houston Office Update: finally was completely closed about a month ago. There are currently no operations or employees at the Houston location.

A large company has recently inhabited the old SpaceHab/Astrium location next door. Never saw that many cars in that parking lot before; no sign out front yet as to what company it is that has moved in.

Just how bad of news is this?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: js117 on 02/06/2009 03:25 pm
They still answer there phone in Las Vegas,NV
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 02/06/2009 04:59 pm
Are you saying Bigelow has closed or moved?

Probably consolidating to Las Vegas would be my guess.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: kraisee on 02/06/2009 05:21 pm
If they really haven't got a chance to launch a Galaxy, I wonder if they couldn't have a chat with Space-X and try to persuade them to lift one as a payload for one of the Falcon-9 or Falcon-9 Heavy test flights.   It's high risk, but if they really can't get a ride any other way, it may be the only remaining option.

Ross.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 02/06/2009 05:41 pm
If they really haven't got a chance to launch a Galaxy, I wonder if they couldn't have a chat with Space-X and try to persuade them to lift one as a payload for one of the Falcon-9 or Falcon-9 Heavy test flights.   It's high risk, but if they really can't get a ride any other way, it may be the only remaining option.

Ross.

As I understood it, they aren't even going to build a Galaxy test model.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: daver on 02/07/2009 08:15 pm
Its been just over a year, 2/5/2008 that Bigelow announced they were working with Lockheed.  I have not heard anything since that press release. http://bigelowaerospace.com/news/?Terms_For_Launch_Services
I'm betting that NASA wasn't very happy with Lockheed.   It would be
embarrassing for Bigelow to have a space station with people in it using American rockets while NASA was buying Russian.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 02/07/2009 08:41 pm
Its been just over a year, 2/5/2008 that Bigelow announced they were working with Lockheed.  I have not heard anything since that press release. http://bigelowaerospace.com/news/?Terms_For_Launch_Services
I'm betting that NASA wasn't very happy with Lockheed.   It would be
embarrassing for Bigelow to have a space station with people in it using American rockets while NASA was buying Russian.

The news archive at http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/news/ has a more recent entry of May 28 2008.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: 8900 on 02/13/2009 10:43 am
pure guess: Probably Bigelow is now facing funding problem as it relies the Bigelow hotel chain to obtain cash flow, as the economic situation is worsening, the cash avaliable to Bigelow will reduce
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 02/13/2009 10:54 am
Agreed.  They need a sugar-daddy or at least someone who can let them tap into a more profitable concern's revenue stream. 

That aside, Sundancer, if operational, could easily be a godsend for Space-X and whoever ends up operating DreamChaser.  After all, having a destination to go to (apart from the ISS) would really open up space tourism as a plaything for the super-rich.

Okay, it is hardly high-concept space travel, but the rubber-necker's dollars will fund more serious pursuits.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: david1971 on 02/13/2009 03:01 pm
Granted everyone's wallet is thinner these days, but isn't Bigelow's net worth roughly an order of magnitude greater than Musk's?  How many people could Robert Bigelow point to and say "I don't have enough $$$, be my sugar daddy"?  Of course there's the Feds, but I don't see them dumping money here.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: William Barton on 02/13/2009 03:24 pm
Granted everyone's wallet is thinner these days, but isn't Bigelow's net worth roughly an order of magnitude greater than Musk's?  How many people could Robert Bigelow point to and say "I don't have enough $$$, be my sugar daddy"?  Of course there's the Feds, but I don't see them dumping money here.

It might simply be the difference between "net worth" and liquid assets. Bigelow's money could be in the form of hotel buildings, whereas Musk's was in the form of bank accounts. Now, of course, Musk's money may largely be in the form of SpaceX (buildings, machinery, rockets...).
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 02/13/2009 04:26 pm
Granted everyone's wallet is thinner these days, but isn't Bigelow's net worth roughly an order of magnitude greater than Musk's?  How many people could Robert Bigelow point to and say "I don't have enough $$$, be my sugar daddy"?  Of course there's the Feds, but I don't see them dumping money here.

It might simply be the difference between "net worth" and liquid assets. Bigelow's money could be in the form of hotel buildings, whereas Musk's was in the form of bank accounts. Now, of course, Musk's money may largely be in the form of SpaceX (buildings, machinery, rockets...).


Bigelow also owns a substantial number of apartment buildings around the US as well as a construction company that has offices in several states. IIRC his stated worth is $1.5 billion, but that would be very difficult to turn into cash.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: david1971 on 02/14/2009 01:06 am
About 18 months back Bigelow was putting $760M on the table in rocket contracts, including $100M up front.  Sure, everyone is hurting now, but taking that to inform some sort of baseline, I'd think that there would be more than enough cash to keep doing whatever it is they are currently doing.

Is there a solid number on the size of Bigelow?  How large are they compared to SpaceX?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Paul Adams on 02/14/2009 01:20 am
Living locally to Bigelow, and keeping something of an 'eye' on the company, I have not seen any negative news at all on the company.

Paul
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: js117 on 02/15/2009 01:57 am
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia reports
This is old information 2006

 
Founded 1999
Founder(s) Robert Bigelow (Founder and President)
Headquarters North Las Vegas, Nevada, United States
Industry Aerospace
Products Orbital facilities, commercial space stations
Employees 120 (2006)
Website BigelowAerospace.com
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mlorrey on 02/16/2009 08:48 pm
Granted everyone's wallet is thinner these days, but isn't Bigelow's net worth roughly an order of magnitude greater than Musk's?  How many people could Robert Bigelow point to and say "I don't have enough $$$, be my sugar daddy"?  Of course there's the Feds, but I don't see them dumping money here.

It might simply be the difference between "net worth" and liquid assets. Bigelow's money could be in the form of hotel buildings, whereas Musk's was in the form of bank accounts. Now, of course, Musk's money may largely be in the form of SpaceX (buildings, machinery, rockets...).


Bigelow also owns a substantial number of apartment buildings around the US as well as a construction company that has offices in several states. IIRC his stated worth is $1.5 billion, but that would be very difficult to turn into cash.

Does he still own Budget Suites? How is that company doing in this economy?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 02/19/2009 08:36 pm
Its been just over a year, 2/5/2008 that Bigelow announced they were working with Lockheed.  I have not heard anything since that press release. http://bigelowaerospace.com/news/?Terms_For_Launch_Services
I'm betting that NASA wasn't very happy with Lockheed.   It would be
embarrassing for Bigelow to have a space station with people in it using American rockets while NASA was buying Russian.


Don't forget this:

http://andrewsspace.com/news.php?subsection=MzEy (http://andrewsspace.com/news.php?subsection=MzEy)

Andrews Awarded Aerojet Contract to Build Hardware for Sundancer

Seattle, WA, August 19, 2008 - Andrews Space, Inc. (Andrews) announced today that it has signed a contract with Aerojet of Sacramento, CA to develop aft propulsion system controllers for Bigelow's Sundancer spacecraft. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: khallow on 02/19/2009 11:41 pm
Having so much assets in real estate is a problem. How much of one depends on how leveraged the real estate is and what sort of cash flow Bigelow currently has. Almost no debt means a 10% decline (to pull an example out of thin air) in real estate prices would be up to a 10% decline in the value of the company. A problem, but not a serious one. If real estate assets were only 10% greater than debt, then the company would have effectively zero net value for its real estate, which is a much more serious problem. That would greatly reduce their ability to borrow more or modify current debt.

Cash flow is another potential problem. If your cash flow is too low, you can be forced to do unprofitable things (like sell off real estate into a bad market) just to maintain a supply of cash for day to day activities. I imagine that just like almost everyone else, Bigelow is probably experiencing some degree of cash flow reduction.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Patchouli on 02/19/2009 11:55 pm
I hope they get sundancer launched soon as they are the ones advancing the technology of space stations.
As for income Robert Bigelow should still be getting good income from his hotel chain and his apartments could even be seeing an increase in business since people who lost their home to foreclosure will likely move to an apartment.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 02/20/2009 10:19 am
Maybe someone out there knows: Is the flight by Falcon 9 (manifested for 2011) for Bigelow the Sundancer or the full-scale station?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 02/20/2009 11:49 am
Maybe someone out there knows: Is the flight by Falcon 9 (manifested for 2011) for Bigelow the Sundancer or the full-scale station?

IIRC it is for the Sundancer. The Falcon 9 doesn't have the lift capacity to put a Nautilus in orbit anyway. F9H & other lifters in that class will be needed.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: general on 02/23/2009 03:25 am
This thread is all very amusing, but you're all missing the point.  Bigelows problem is transportation.  He needs a crew capsule that could actually take people to his destination.  Why would he start building his Space Station if he can't get anyone there???  He's a visionary, but he's not stupid!

We should all be writing letters to our elected officials to advocate:

1) NASA should fund a Commercial Crew Initiative.  (NOT COTS D with it's "skin in the game" provision.) 

2) Get NASA OUT OF THE WAY!! (NO NASA Bureaucrat Engineers levying garbage requirements.) 

3) Get a CREDIBLE domestic company to build a commercial capsule.
(I'll bet you a dollar that there's probably a start at an Orion "Lite" design out there in someone's desk drawer.) 

4) Put it on an existing, flight demonstrated launch vehicle.   (Duh!)

Stand back and watch what happens in 3 years.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jorge on 02/23/2009 03:32 am
This thread is all very amusing, but you're all missing the point.  Bigelows problem is transportation.  He needs a crew capsule that could actually take people to his destination.  Why would he start building his Space Station if he can't get anyone there???  He's a visionary, but he's not stupid!

We should all be writing letters to our elected officials to advocate:

1) NASA should fund a Commercial Crew Initiative.  (NOT COTS D with it's "skin in the game" provision.) 

"skin in the game" is the best part about COTS.

It limits the field to serious providers that are confident that they have a business case for their spacecraft beyond selling rides to NASA.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: jongoff on 02/23/2009 02:38 pm
This thread is all very amusing, but you're all missing the point.  Bigelows problem is transportation.  He needs a crew capsule that could actually take people to his destination.  Why would he start building his Space Station if he can't get anyone there???  He's a visionary, but he's not stupid!

We should all be writing letters to our elected officials to advocate:

1) NASA should fund a Commercial Crew Initiative.  (NOT COTS D with it's "skin in the game" provision.) 

"skin in the game" is the best part about COTS.

It limits the field to serious providers that are confident that they have a business case for their spacecraft beyond selling rides to NASA.

Though personally, I'd like to see the skin-in-the-game requirements reduced slightly, and milestone payments shifted more towards hardware milestones (instead of paying for PDRs, CDRs, etc).  But I agree that at least on some level, the skin-in-the-game requirements are useful.

~Jon
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: HMXHMX on 02/23/2009 03:44 pm
This thread is all very amusing, but you're all missing the point.  Bigelows problem is transportation.  He needs a crew capsule that could actually take people to his destination.  Why would he start building his Space Station if he can't get anyone there???  He's a visionary, but he's not stupid!

We should all be writing letters to our elected officials to advocate:

1) NASA should fund a Commercial Crew Initiative.  (NOT COTS D with it's "skin in the game" provision.) 

"skin in the game" is the best part about COTS.

It limits the field to serious providers that are confident that they have a business case for their spacecraft beyond selling rides to NASA.

It is the worst part of COTS, in my view.  It freezes out any firm or team that doesn't have a sugar daddy.  For example, Scaled could not have competed for the X-Prize absent an investment from Paul Allen.  And it took more guarantees than NASA can or will give (at least in 2005, when COTS began) to bring Allen into the Scaled investment.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: R.Simko on 02/23/2009 04:16 pm
Some kind of new balance needs to be reached about how much skin needs to be put up.   It is very difficult for any new start-up to come up with the funding needed. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: William Barton on 02/23/2009 04:54 pm
This thread is all very amusing, but you're all missing the point.  Bigelows problem is transportation.  He needs a crew capsule that could actually take people to his destination.  Why would he start building his Space Station if he can't get anyone there???  He's a visionary, but he's not stupid!

We should all be writing letters to our elected officials to advocate:

1) NASA should fund a Commercial Crew Initiative.  (NOT COTS D with it's "skin in the game" provision.) 

"skin in the game" is the best part about COTS.

It limits the field to serious providers that are confident that they have a business case for their spacecraft beyond selling rides to NASA.

It is the worst part of COTS, in my view.  It freezes out any firm or team that doesn't have a sugar daddy.  For example, Scaled could not have competed for the X-Prize absent an investment from Paul Allen.  And it took more guarantees than NASA can or will give (at least in 2005, when COTS began) to bring Allen into the Scaled investment.

Absent the skin-in-the-game provision, what's different from business as usual? A government funding reservation of small players?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: jongoff on 02/23/2009 07:49 pm
It is the worst part of COTS, in my view.  It freezes out any firm or team that doesn't have a sugar daddy.  For example, Scaled could not have competed for the X-Prize absent an investment from Paul Allen.  And it took more guarantees than NASA can or will give (at least in 2005, when COTS began) to bring Allen into the Scaled investment.

Absent the skin-in-the-game provision, what's different from business as usual? A government funding reservation of small players?

Requirement that the firm, fixed-price payments are based only on technical milestones, not just paper milestones. 

~Jon
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: William Barton on 02/23/2009 08:00 pm
It is the worst part of COTS, in my view.  It freezes out any firm or team that doesn't have a sugar daddy.  For example, Scaled could not have competed for the X-Prize absent an investment from Paul Allen.  And it took more guarantees than NASA can or will give (at least in 2005, when COTS began) to bring Allen into the Scaled investment.

Absent the skin-in-the-game provision, what's different from business as usual? A government funding reservation of small players?

Requirement that the firm, fixed-price payments are based only on technical milestones, not just paper milestones. 

~Jon

How does that elminate skin in the game? It seems like the company would still have to come up with money of its own ("sugar daddy").
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: jongoff on 02/24/2009 12:00 am
It is the worst part of COTS, in my view.  It freezes out any firm or team that doesn't have a sugar daddy.  For example, Scaled could not have competed for the X-Prize absent an investment from Paul Allen.  And it took more guarantees than NASA can or will give (at least in 2005, when COTS began) to bring Allen into the Scaled investment.

Absent the skin-in-the-game provision, what's different from business as usual? A government funding reservation of small players?

Requirement that the firm, fixed-price payments are based only on technical milestones, not just paper milestones. 

~Jon

How does that elminate skin in the game? It seems like the company would still have to come up with money of its own ("sugar daddy").

Yeah, but in much smaller chunks.  Raising enough operating capital to make it to the next milestone, when that milestone has a firm contract for it, and is much smaller than the overall vehicle development program, is a lot easier than raising money for the overall vehicle development program when the actual firm part of the contract is worth less than the amount you're expected to raise.  The problem is that with uncertain demand upon completion of COTS, it's really hard to raise a lot of money.  Whereas for a contract that is paying by the technical milestone, where you are actually planning on making a profit on the development work, it's a lot easier to put together that money.  Not trivial, but easier.

I guess what I'm saying, and what Gary is trying to say is that by doing things the way they did with COTS, they both excluded any competitor that didn't have a sugar daddy, and they increased the risk to the taxpayer by frontloading most of the payments on non-hardware demonstration "paper milestones."  If the market was clear enough that you could raise hundreds of millions without having a sugar daddy on-board, you probably wouldn't need COTS either.

COTS *is* better than the previous status quo, just saying there are things that could be done better.

~Jon
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: HMXHMX on 02/24/2009 12:01 am
It is the worst part of COTS, in my view.  It freezes out any firm or team that doesn't have a sugar daddy.  For example, Scaled could not have competed for the X-Prize absent an investment from Paul Allen.  And it took more guarantees than NASA can or will give (at least in 2005, when COTS began) to bring Allen into the Scaled investment.

Absent the skin-in-the-game provision, what's different from business as usual? A government funding reservation of small players?

Requirement that the firm, fixed-price payments are based only on technical milestones, not just paper milestones. 

~Jon

How does that elminate skin in the game? It seems like the company would still have to come up with money of its own ("sugar daddy").

Jon has it right, payments on hardware milestones.  Recognizing the need for "pump priming" I proposed (and got NASA to accept in 2004) the need for a "kick-off" payment that would not be tied to a hardware milestone but would be paid upon being selected for the contract.  The amount would be perhaps 10-15% of the total value.  This would have been the limit of what NASA would have had at risk.  This was the only compromise that I could see being financially practical.

Of course, once underway, I had hope that lines of credit might well become available that would backstop the "unknown-unknowns" risk.  At t/Space we did manage to obtain about $60M in such lines in anticipation of award.  (Not equity, credit lines...)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 02/24/2009 01:31 am
So how are things going for Bigelow these days?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Bill White on 02/24/2009 01:47 am
This thread is all very amusing, but you're all missing the point.  Bigelows problem is transportation.  He needs a crew capsule that could actually take people to his destination.  Why would he start building his Space Station if he can't get anyone there???  He's a visionary, but he's not stupid!

We should all be writing letters to our elected officials to advocate:

1) NASA should fund a Commercial Crew Initiative.  (NOT COTS D with it's "skin in the game" provision.) 

2) Get NASA OUT OF THE WAY!! (NO NASA Bureaucrat Engineers levying garbage requirements.) 

3) Get a CREDIBLE domestic company to build a commercial capsule.
(I'll bet you a dollar that there's probably a start at an Orion "Lite" design out there in someone's desk drawer.) 

4) Put it on an existing, flight demonstrated launch vehicle.   (Duh!)

Stand back and watch what happens in 3 years.

I have read rumors that Lockheed got in hot water with NASA brass for discussing potential plans to fly a inexpensive crew taxi on Atlas V for Bigelow and thereafter backed away from talking about this in public.

Recently I've also heard it said that the ghost of former management still haunts NASA HQ and that people shall be reluctant to propose or discuss ideas not consistent with the party line until there is clear evidence that the new Administrator shall create a new culture about ventures that could "compete" with NASA for the public's imagination.

Hopefully, the new Administrator shall be supportive of a crewed Bigelow station and new launchers to get people there as I believe that a genuine LEO hotel and/or a genuine LEO sports facility will drive demand for launches far more than even a propellant depot.

Even the absence of hostility might be enough.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 02/24/2009 02:14 am
I have read rumors that Lockheed got in hot water with NASA brass for discussing potential plans to fly a inexpensive crew taxi on Atlas V for Bigelow and thereafter backed away from talking about this in public.

My feeling is that NASA's intention was always to launch Orion on an EELV eventually. First get Ares I to fly for a while and once a decent period of time has gone by, switch to EELV.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: HMXHMX on 02/24/2009 05:43 am
This thread is all very amusing, but you're all missing the point.  Bigelows problem is transportation.  He needs a crew capsule that could actually take people to his destination.  Why would he start building his Space Station if he can't get anyone there???  He's a visionary, but he's not stupid!

We should all be writing letters to our elected officials to advocate:

1) NASA should fund a Commercial Crew Initiative.  (NOT COTS D with it's "skin in the game" provision.) 

2) Get NASA OUT OF THE WAY!! (NO NASA Bureaucrat Engineers levying garbage requirements.) 

3) Get a CREDIBLE domestic company to build a commercial capsule.
(I'll bet you a dollar that there's probably a start at an Orion "Lite" design out there in someone's desk drawer.) 

4) Put it on an existing, flight demonstrated launch vehicle.   (Duh!)

Stand back and watch what happens in 3 years.

I have read rumors that Lockheed got in hot water with NASA brass for discussing potential plans to fly a inexpensive crew taxi on Atlas V for Bigelow and thereafter backed away from talking about this in public.

Recently I've also heard it said that the ghost of former management still haunts NASA HQ and that people shall be reluctant to propose or discuss ideas not consistent with the party line until there is clear evidence that the new Administrator shall create a new culture about ventures that could "compete" with NASA for the public's imagination.

Hopefully, the new Administrator shall be supportive of a crewed Bigelow station and new launchers to get people there as I believe that a genuine LEO hotel and/or a genuine LEO sports facility will drive demand for launches far more than even a propellant depot.

Even the absence of hostility might be enough.

Wasn't rumor.  Personal call to the highest of the high LM management occurred; you can see the progress on the LM/Bigelow deal that ensued (that is...none whatever).
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Zond on 03/07/2009 12:42 pm
Bigelow is apperently now planning to use ET's knowledge to get people to his space station:
MUFON to receive major funding from billionaire backer (http://www.examiner.com/x-3340-Nashville-UFO-Examiner~y2009m3d6-MUFON-to-receive-major-funding-from-billionaire-backer)
 ::)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: daver on 03/08/2009 12:16 am
Here is an article about Bigelow.

http://www.mounteverest.net/news.php?id=18079

'clip'
  "A self-made man, Bigelow builds his space hotel the way he runs his hotels and real estate: hire the best people, use the best materials, and stay on time and on budget, using off-the-shelf components whenever possible. Home base is a 50-acre facility at the outskirts of Las Vegas; according to PopularScience.com it's guarded by men wearing black shoulder patches, featuring an oval-eyed alien face outlined in silver and gold."
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: coach on 03/08/2009 05:44 am
MUFON?!!  Oh my.  Does he know something we don't?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 03/08/2009 01:04 pm
Bigelow is apperently now planning to use ET's knowledge to get people to his space station:
MUFON to receive major funding from billionaire backer (http://www.examiner.com/x-3340-Nashville-UFO-Examiner~y2009m3d6-MUFON-to-receive-major-funding-from-billionaire-backer)
 ::)

Okay, so he believes that there is an ETI explanation for the UFO phenomenon and is willing to put his money where his mouth is.  So what? The point is, irrespective of whether or not he is a secret UFO cultist, Bigelow is doing a lot of important work with respect to making commercial manned space access a reality.  It isn't as if he is personally directing the design process is it?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: nomadd22 on 03/09/2009 05:10 pm
Bigelow is apperently now planning to use ET's knowledge to get people to his space station:
MUFON to receive major funding from billionaire backer (http://www.examiner.com/x-3340-Nashville-UFO-Examiner~y2009m3d6-MUFON-to-receive-major-funding-from-billionaire-backer)
 ::)

Okay, so he believes that there is an ETI explanation for the UFO phenomenon and is willing to put his money where his mouth is.  So what? The point is, irrespective of whether or not he is a secret UFO cultist, Bigelow is doing a lot of important work with respect to making commercial manned space access a reality.  It isn't as if he is personally directing the design process is it?
"So what" is that investors don't tend to trust their money with people they percieve as kooks. Can't say I'm free of that particular predudice myself.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 03/09/2009 07:18 pm
Bigelow is apperently now planning to use ET's knowledge to get people to his space station:
MUFON to receive major funding from billionaire backer (http://www.examiner.com/x-3340-Nashville-UFO-Examiner~y2009m3
d6-MUFON-to-receive-major-funding-from-billionaire-backer)
 ::)

Okay, so he believes that there is an ETI explanation for the UFO phenomenon and is willing to put his money where his mouth is.  So what? The point is, irrespective of whether or not he is a secret UFO cultist, Bigelow is doing a lot of important work with respect to making commercial manned space access a reality.  It isn't as if he is personally directing the design process is it?
"So what" is that investors don't tend to trust their money with people they percieve as kooks. Can't say I'm free of that particular predudice myself.

Bigelow addressed that very issue in an interview. He said, since he is 100% owner of all his enterprises (as in, not a publicly traded corporation) the only other person he has to answer to is Mrs. Bigelow.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mlorrey on 03/09/2009 08:33 pm
MUFON?!!  Oh my.  Does he know something we don't?

For years he was behind all the exposure Area 51 got wrt real or alleged  ET stuff there. Given he was housing a lot of the labor that shipped in and out of the test range, its an interesting question what he heard from customers that contributed to his pursuit of this line of inquiry.

Frankly it doesnt really matter other than an interesting factoid about his motivation for funding his space station ambitions and beyond. He's got plans for a 'moon cruiser' to act as a cruise ship to do a lunar flyaround. It's likely he's got secondary goals beyond selling high priced tickets to millionaires for such a mission, if he believes all that stuff, he's likely seeking to investigate stories of aliens on the backside of the moon.

As long as his vehicles are well built by sound engineering, it all really doesn't matter WHY he's doing it, does it? Given that half the population believes in such stuff, dont they have a right to have THEIR questions about space answered too, no matter how kooky you may think they are?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: coach on 03/10/2009 11:56 am
"As long as his vehicles are well built by sound engineering, it all really doesn't matter WHY he's doing it, does it? "

Not at all.  Don't read the shocked look on my face to be anything other than what it is.  It's his money.  Aliens or not, who cares?  He's the only guy on earth building space stations.  I simply find it curious someone can be both so analytical and meticulous with engineering and business and then pursue such wild, unproven speculations at the same time.  Genius borders on insanity, huh?


Coach
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 03/10/2009 11:58 am
Not at all.  Don't read the shocked look on my face to be anything other than what it is.  It's his money.  Aliens or not, who cares?  He's the only guy on earth building space stations.  I simply find it curious someone can be both so analytical and meticulous with engineering and business and then pursue such wild, unproven speculations at the same time.  Genius borders on insanity, huh?

Have you guys considered that he himself might be an alien ;-)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 03/10/2009 12:46 pm
Have you guys considered the he himself might be an alien ;-)

Nah, never occured to us.  After all, immigration rules state that we aren't allowed to interfere in human technological development...

Oops! I said too much, I think ;)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Namechange User on 03/10/2009 01:11 pm
"As long as his vehicles are well built by sound engineering, it all really doesn't matter WHY he's doing it, does it? "

Not at all.  Don't read the shocked look on my face to be anything other than what it is.  It's his money.  Aliens or not, who cares?  He's the only guy on earth building space stations.  I simply find it curious someone can be both so analytical and meticulous with engineering and business and then pursue such wild, unproven speculations at the same time.  Genius borders on insanity, huh?


Coach

At one time in history Earth was believed to be the center of the universe and the thought of anything else was considered wild and unproven and then those people were ridiculed (and sometimes worse) as well.  That theory was not proven until other analytical and meticulous individuals showed it to be fact and fought for its acceptance. 

I'm not saying there is or there is not evidence of this to be found but there are a lot of people that "see" things so why couldn't it be true?  If someone is going to investigate it, it should be via strict scientific theory so I see nothing really wrong with this.  Maybe he is a bit eccentric too, I don't know, but there are a lot of people that way but for some reason anyone who ever wants to do credible research on this topic is usually labled a whacko. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: JMS on 03/10/2009 04:33 pm
I simply find it curious someone can be both so analytical and meticulous with engineering and business and then pursue such wild, unproven speculations at the same time.

You should read Ed Mitchell's biography.
A Doctorate from MIT, an excellent LM pilot, and yet he felt inclined to attempt ESP experiments in his spare time on the journey.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: coach on 03/10/2009 07:35 pm
Pad Rat, how much money are you willing to spend to find out what that thing was?  Who would you hire to do it?  BTW, I'm ignorant of MUFON's scientific credibility beyond "I've heard of them" so do they have a track record of providing any hard evidence that would make you want to give them exhorbitant amounts of money? 


Coach

PS - I'm an admirer of Mr. Bigelow and his endeavors.  I wish him all the luck in the world and I don't believe his ET investigations will slow him down at all.  It's a free country, pursue your dreams!  I'll also be the first to think that until proven otherwise, he's a little nutty.  I actually secretly hope he proves me wrong.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mlorrey on 03/10/2009 10:17 pm
Have you guys considered the he himself might be an alien ;-)

Nah, never occured to us.  After all, immigration rules state that we aren't allowed to interfere in human technological development...

Oops! I said too much, I think ;)

You Venusians and your crazy policies. Nothing wrong with a few abductions and implanted spaceship plans. Neurons arent as reliable as holographic matrix crystals however...

Lord Xenu's Galactic Fleet HQ
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: bad_astra on 03/26/2009 04:03 pm
website is practically down. All it gives is a link to email login. Bad sign?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: stockman on 03/26/2009 04:14 pm
website is practically down. All it gives is a link to email login. Bad sign?

ummm.. I just went to this website and it seems in tact to me?? It may be in need of some news and updates that are more recent but otherwise it seems all there

http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: bad_astra on 03/26/2009 05:02 pm
I get forwarded to http://64.250.232.124/~admin76/squirrelmail/src/login.php

Not sure why. But I'll check from home, later.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: William Barton on 03/26/2009 05:05 pm
I get forwarded to http://64.250.232.124/~admin76/squirrelmail/src/login.php

Not sure why. But I'll check from home, later.

Same thing is happening to me. Looks like a job for "the SquirrelMail Development Team..."
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 03/26/2009 07:08 pm
Is this the old problem that the website rental companies do not send you a reminder when you have to pay again but simply disconnect you?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 03/26/2009 07:15 pm
It just worked for me too.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: stockman on 03/26/2009 07:17 pm
Just so we are on the same page... This is where the web pointer takes me with no problem... From here All the hyperlinks that are supposed to be active work fine..

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: William Barton on 03/26/2009 07:36 pm
I'm still getting squirrelmail. Looks like a DNS screwup that depends on where you see it from. Bigelowaerospace.com shows Enom, Inc. (inside the IP range), with the squirrelmail IP pointing to Lasvegasnetwork and Cyberworx. I sometimes get screwups like this because while I've had control of williambarton.com for more than 15 years, the world's most famous didgeridoo player registered williambarton.com.au (and not every server admin in the world is careful what he or she types).
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ehb on 03/26/2009 09:45 pm

~$ nslookup
> www.bigelowaerospace.com
Server:         127.0.0.1
Address:        127.0.0.1#53

Non-authoritative answer:
www.bigelowaerospace.com        canonical name = bigelowaerospace.com.
Name:   bigelowaerospace.com
Address: 64.250.232.122
Name:   bigelowaerospace.com
Address: 64.250.232.125
>

-------------
The .122 seems to get me bigelow, .125 squirrel...

e.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: NUAETIUS on 03/29/2009 06:49 pm

~$ nslookup
> www.bigelowaerospace.com
Server:         127.0.0.1
Address:        127.0.0.1#53

Non-authoritative answer:
www.bigelowaerospace.com        canonical name = bigelowaerospace.com.
Name:   bigelowaerospace.com
Address: 64.250.232.122
Name:   bigelowaerospace.com
Address: 64.250.232.125
>

-------------
The .122 seems to get me bigelow, .125 squirrel...

e.


Both give squirrel mail now.  I think someone is reading this forum :).  This is REALLY not a very good sign. 

Mr. Bigelow contracted with  Mutual UFO Network (MUFON) to do work for his Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies (BAASS) group earlier in March.  Many articles are currently linking to the Bigelow Aerospace site, and being sent to this mail gateway.  Hope they fix it soon because any press is good press.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: stockman on 03/29/2009 07:31 pm
Yep you are right... I tried the exact same url I posted three days ago and now I am getting the squirrel mail screen as well...

Not sure what to make of it...
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 03/29/2009 08:07 pm
Still works for me. DNS propagation can take a couple of days or even weeks for misconfigured servers.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 03/30/2009 11:43 pm
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/ is working fine here....(64.250.232.122) while .125 is apparently the login to their mail server.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: NUAETIUS on 03/31/2009 12:42 am
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/ is working fine here....(64.250.232.122) while .125 is apparently the login to their mail server.

Worked for me, thank god.  Now the real question, the last update on that site was 10 months ago.  You would figure they would have SOMETHING to post at this point. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 03/31/2009 03:34 am
Prior to the first test module they were actually kind of secretive. Maybe they are just returning to type rather than being uncooperative.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Space Lizard on 03/31/2009 06:19 pm
Worked for me, thank god.  Now the real question, the last update on that site was 10 months ago.  You would figure they would have SOMETHING to post at this point. 
Actually, they have been posting pictures regularly in 2009.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: stockman on 03/31/2009 06:25 pm
Now it is back to working for me again as well...
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: PlanetStorm on 05/03/2009 03:39 pm

A brief update has appeared:

1. Satus update on Genesis II: it has completed 10,000 orbits
2. Just a hintthat they are still busy: "Right now, the Bigelow Aerospace staff and their contractors continue their hard work on future commercial space habitats."

http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/news/
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: cgrunska on 05/04/2009 10:11 pm
i hope they are making headway and staying near on target

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: josh_simonson on 05/05/2009 12:39 am
There was an article about them about a week ago in the economist discussing ITAR restrictions and progress being made in that department towards allowing non-US citizens to enter a bigelow module without a security clearance. 

http://www.economist.com/science/tm/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13525115
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: js117 on 05/26/2009 02:45 am
bigelowaerospace web site is down again
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Patchouli on 05/26/2009 03:01 am
I hope they're still making headway they have by far the best derivative of transhab's technology.
Bigelow's work on expandables makes ILC Dover's look like a joke.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: js117 on 05/28/2009 02:23 am
bigelowaerospace site is back up
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Comga on 05/28/2009 05:09 am
There was an article about them about a week ago in the economist discussing ITAR restrictions and progress being made in that department towards allowing non-US citizens to enter a Bigelow module without a security clearance. 

http://www.economist.com/science/tm/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13525115

In the end, this might be Bigelow's most significant contribution.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: infocat13 on 07/02/2009 11:27 pm
   I have noticed that the bigelow wiki website has references to lunar flyby missions ,all with  no citations

I would like to know more
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 07/03/2009 11:33 am
@ infocat13

I can't give you too many precise details, but the basic idea has been around at least since the 1950s.

Basically, a space station is a long-haul spaceship without the engine power to go anywhere on its own.  Thus, in building a habitat module, Bigelow are essentially also building a transfer (orbit-to-orbit) vehicle.  All it needs is an engine and some deep-space navigation equipment.  There are plenty of booster stages suited for EDS duty, either extant or in development. 

You plug an engine (say a SEC Centaur or maybe a ATK heavy ICBM solid motor) onto a Bigelow module's aft port and perform a Transfer Orbit Injection burn along a free-return trajectory.  Sir Issac Newton takes over and gravity swings the module around the far side of the Moon and back to Earth in about seven days.

What happens next is dependent on what you want to do with the transfer vehicle.  The 'default' option is that you get into your Crew Return Vehicle (a Dragon, Soyuz or DreamChaser) and re-enter the atmospere like the Apollo crews from Return Orbit.  Alternately, you either carry a second engine to break back into LEO or use a more exotic method like aerocapture to burn off a lot of your dV so that you can stabilise into LEO using just your RCS engines on the transfer vehicle.  You then perform a much less hair-raising re-entry from LEO.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: iamlucky13 on 07/04/2009 08:33 am
I thought I'd mention, although I'm pretty sure Bigelow Aerospace's website has listed them as hiring experience engineers for some time now, I've recently started seeing postings in the Craigslist job boards for the same. Unless (and I can't imagine why) they're being spoofed, it looks like there's still something happening over there.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Comga on 07/09/2009 03:34 am
There is a fairly substantial article in the June 29, 2009 issue of Space News titled "Startup Tests Propulsion System for Commercial Space Station".  The main thrust is that Orion Propulsion of Huntsville, AL has been testing a H2/O2 attitude control system with 5 lb thrusters under a $4.8M contract awarded May of 2008..

A very interesting comment in the third paragraph is "Sundancer's launch plans are up in the air pending the emergence of what Bigelow Aerospace calls "a viable crew transportation system." But Mike Gold, Bigelow's corporate counsel, said June 22 that "work is proceeding aggressively on Sundancer and other Bigelow Aerospace systems" as the 100 person company waits for the likes of Hawthorne,CA based Space Exploration Technologies or Denver based United Launch Alliance to bring commercial crew transport systems to market. "

So Bigelow claims to be making progress but is stuck in the chicken-and-egg problem of not developing a destination without a transportation system, whose development would be waiting for a destination, if it were not for CRS and possibly COTS-D.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: NUAETIUS on 08/04/2009 04:34 pm
http://www.andrews-space.com/news.php?subsection=MzI1

Andrews Space Delivers Spaceflight Hardware for Aerojet / Bigelow

Seattle, WA Aug 3, 2009 - Andrews Space, Inc. (Andrews) announced today that it has delivered avionics flight hardware to Aerojet for Bigelow Aerospace's Sundancer Aft Propulsion System.  Under a five month fixed-price contract, Andrews developed,  flight-qualified and delivered, 20 propulsion system diode boards responsible for electromotive force protection within the Aerojet propulsion system.  Aerojet is under contract to Bigelow to develop the integrated aft propulsion system on Bigelow's Sundancer human-tended space platform.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: jhoblik on 08/14/2009 03:55 pm
Interesting Bigellow is financing of development of Orion Lite.
It gives them spacecraft they really needed for their space station.
They will have option at least two launch vehicles Atlas V and Falcon 9. And they will be not stuck if  Spacex failed to deliver Falcon 9 and Dragon capsule, they will be able  use more expensive launcher Atlas V, but already available.
They are really serious about  achieving manned LEO transportation.
I think it will force Spacex go ahead with upgrading Dragon capsule to manned spacecraft, even if they will not able to receive government money for escape system.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Patchouli on 08/14/2009 04:06 pm
I wonder if bigelow's modules could be used as the biases of lunar habitats and even lunar rovers.

They would make the lunar surface cargo requirements a lot smaller heck you'd probably could even get away with something as small as the LEM truck and taxi vs needing Altair's near EELV class payloads.
Sundancer stripped of it's propulsion and fuel tanks might come in under 5,000Kg.

I figure looking at known specs the module probable has several tons of propellant.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: zaitcev on 08/14/2009 06:04 pm
The article about Orion-Lite went open on SPACE.COM, in case you wanted to know what's going on with those 760 million that apparently nobody wanted:
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/090814-orion-lite.html

It's a little confusing, but apparently Bigelow is building Orion-Lite themselves with LM's "help" (whatever that means) instead of asking some other company (like LM) to build it for them. That's where 760 millions are going to go (at least in part).

-- Pete
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: kevin-rf on 08/14/2009 06:25 pm

Does this mean ULA is going to do the engineering necessary to bring back the two engine Centaur?

For a low flight rate, which is cheaper a two engine Centaur or an extra Solid?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: zaitcev on 08/14/2009 08:20 pm
For a low flight rate, which is cheaper a two engine Centaur or an extra Solid?
Can't have solids on manned launches of Atlas, for two reasons at least (both safety related):
 - black zones cannot be closed with a solid
 - the booster monitoring system cannot predict failure fast enough with solid

-- Pete
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Patchouli on 08/14/2009 08:39 pm
I wonder how similar Orion lite is to the regular Orion and can eliminate the need for block I Orion.
Which would leave NASA free to concentrate on just the lunar version.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: nacnud on 08/14/2009 08:53 pm
The article mentions that just the outer mould line and pressure shell are the same as Orion heavy.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: kevin-rf on 08/15/2009 05:08 am
Okay, so solids are out. (I missed the thread on where solids created black zones, why? linkie?)

For Atlas "402"* ULA needs to adapt the old two engine Centaur design to use the same updates as used on the current single engine Centaur (Electric vs Hydraulic steering). As Jim likes to say, that is not a given, someone has to pay for that. Will ULA?

*Besides, the 4 in 402 refs the fairing, wouldn't this be an Atlas 002 ;)

And since Facon 9 has not flown, it is also not a given.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jim on 08/15/2009 01:34 pm

 - black zones cannot be closed with a solid


Yes, they can.  They can be closed in any configuration. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Nascent Ascent on 08/15/2009 02:14 pm
Well, it looks like the general wins a dollar.   ;)


This thread is all very amusing, but you're all missing the point.  Bigelows problem is transportation.  He needs a crew capsule that could actually take people to his destination.  Why would he start building his Space Station if he can't get anyone there???  He's a visionary, but he's not stupid!

We should all be writing letters to our elected officials to advocate:

1) NASA should fund a Commercial Crew Initiative.  (NOT COTS D with it's "skin in the game" provision.) 

2) Get NASA OUT OF THE WAY!! (NO NASA Bureaucrat Engineers levying garbage requirements.) 

3) Get a CREDIBLE domestic company to build a commercial capsule.
(I'll bet you a dollar that there's probably a start at an Orion "Lite" design out there in someone's desk drawer.) 

4) Put it on an existing, flight demonstrated launch vehicle.   (Duh!)

Stand back and watch what happens in 3 years.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: kevin-rf on 08/15/2009 03:00 pm

I'm wondering, there is already another thread on the Orion Lite part of this ... Should the Orion Lite part of this be merged into it?

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=18323.0



Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Andy USA on 08/15/2009 03:04 pm
Yes, take all of that conversation to the specific thread. It would be easily just to cut the conversation here, rather than split, or people will just post the same subject again.

Thanks.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: SpacexULA on 09/10/2009 12:00 am
New Space all the way around for NASA!

NASA considers ISS Bigelow module

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/09/09/332086/nasa-considers-iss-bigelow-module.html

However, internal NASA documents passed to Flightglobal show the US space agency is now interested in attaching a Bigelow module, but neither the company or NASA were available for comment.

More through the link
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danny Dot on 09/10/2009 12:17 am

 - black zones cannot be closed with a solid


Yes, they can.  They can be closed in any configuration. 

As always, Jim is correct.

No launch vehicle has ever flown high enough to have a black zone for a lifting capsule (which Orion is).  And if you need to go lower, every launch vehicle ever flown can easily go lower. 

The blackzones I discovered many years ago were for a winged vehicle.  And this was before Boeing lowered the trajectory, which they did within 24 hours of being asked. 

Man I wish had not shown that data to anyone until I had a chance to talk to the Boeing engineers. :-[

Danny Deger
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jorge on 09/10/2009 12:57 am
New Space all the way around for NASA!

NASA considers ISS Bigelow module

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/09/09/332086/nasa-considers-iss-bigelow-module.html

However, internal NASA documents passed to Flightglobal show the US space agency is now interested in attaching a Bigelow module, but neither the company or NASA were available for comment.

More through the link

Lousy article. My main beef is with the second and third paragraphs:

Quote from: Rob Coppinger
In 1997 the US space agency examined the possible attachment of its Transhab inflatable module to the ISS, but abandoned the technology project. Transhab would have been used for crew quarters.

Bigelow took the NASA Transhab technology and developed it for its own orbital complex concept and launched two technology demonstrators, Genesis I and II, which were successfully launched using Russian rockets in 2006 and 2007.

I would have written it this way:

Quote from: Jorge
In 1997 the US space agency examined the possible attachment of its Transhab inflatable module to the ISS, but an act of Congress forced them to abandon the technology project. Transhab would have been used for crew quarters.

NASA licensed the Transhab technology to Bigelow, which developed it for its own orbital complex concept and launched two technology demonstrators, Genesis I and II, which were successfully launched using Russian rockets in 2006 and 2007.

Much more honest, and it really wouldn't have taken more room in the article.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: yinzer on 09/10/2009 01:35 am
I would have written it this way:
Quote from: Jorge
In 1997 the US space agency examined the possible attachment of its Transhab inflatable module to the ISS, but an act of Congress forced them to abandon the technology project. Transhab would have been used for crew quarters.

NASA licensed the Transhab technology to Bigelow, which developed it for its own orbital complex concept and launched two technology demonstrators, Genesis I and II, which were successfully launched using Russian rockets in 2006 and 2007.

Much more honest, and it really wouldn't have taken more room in the article.

You don't think it's worth mentioning the poor state of the ISS program at the time?  From a public statement at the time:
Quote
Transhab [...] has come under fire within the House of Representatives. Concerns were raised by legislators that the R & D effort would emerge from the ISS office as a construction project that would replace the current station habitation module. The fear was that with the replacement would come a dramatic increase in the cost of the International Space Station and delays in the contemplated construction schedule.

That sounds like a pretty justified fear to me.  Indeed, the hab module got cancelled the next year, victim to general ISS cost overruns.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jorge on 09/10/2009 01:46 am
I would have written it this way:
Quote from: Jorge
In 1997 the US space agency examined the possible attachment of its Transhab inflatable module to the ISS, but an act of Congress forced them to abandon the technology project. Transhab would have been used for crew quarters.

NASA licensed the Transhab technology to Bigelow, which developed it for its own orbital complex concept and launched two technology demonstrators, Genesis I and II, which were successfully launched using Russian rockets in 2006 and 2007.

Much more honest, and it really wouldn't have taken more room in the article.

You don't think it's worth mentioning the poor state of the ISS program at the time?  From a public statement at the time:
Quote
Transhab [...] has come under fire within the House of Representatives. Concerns were raised by legislators that the R & D effort would emerge from the ISS office as a construction project that would replace the current station habitation module. The fear was that with the replacement would come a dramatic increase in the cost of the International Space Station and delays in the contemplated construction schedule.

That sounds like a pretty justified fear to me.

Whether it was justified or not is beside my point. My point is that cancellation wasn't NASA's choice. That's aimed at the bleating hordes excoriating NASA for "abandoning" Transhab.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: yinzer on 09/10/2009 02:00 am
That sounds like a pretty justified fear to me.

Whether it was justified or not is beside my point. My point is that cancellation wasn't NASA's choice. That's aimed at the bleating hordes excoriating NASA for "abandoning" Transhab.

Sure.  NASA didn't abandon TransHab because they were shortsighted, NASA didn't have the money to develop it because the baseline ISS was eating up all the available budget and then some.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: jabe on 09/10/2009 02:08 am
I came across a posting on Nasawatch (http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2009/09/node_3_location.html) that seems to suggest the suggestion was brought up by Bigelow.  I'm assuming they just spelled his name wrong in the article. :)
Quote
Mr. Suffredini noted that Biggalow has approached NASA about docking a module to ISS, which he would like to try to accommodate.

jb
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: SpacexULA on 09/10/2009 02:27 am
I think an healthy assumption would be that NASA would want a BA330 not a Sundancer.

Given by all reports Bigelow is in the process of Building the Sundancer unit and Truss at this time, with 2 BA-330 to attach to the station later, what is the priority for Bigelow.

A.  Build a BA-330 to their own internal specs for their private station

B.  Build a BA-330 to NASA spec for ISS, use NASA funds to help accelerate the R&D and production of BA.

Considering Bigelow was obviously funding Orion Lite for a long while before any of us admitted to knowing about it, for all we know they could have skipped Sundancer a year ago and be working on the BA-330 for ISS right now. 

Wow, what a week for space news this one has been.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: iamlucky13 on 09/10/2009 06:51 am
The article about Orion-Lite went open on SPACE.COM, in case you wanted to know what's going on with those 760 million that apparently nobody wanted:
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/090814-orion-lite.html

It's a little confusing, but apparently Bigelow is building Orion-Lite themselves with LM's "help" (whatever that means) instead of asking some other company (like LM) to build it for them. That's where 760 millions are going to go (at least in part).

-- Pete

I missed this when it came up last month, but given the news that's been developing since then, I'm starting to wonder if Lockheed Martin is positioning themselves for a possible COTS-D bid.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: infocat13 on 09/10/2009 08:17 pm
The article about Orion-Lite went open on SPACE.COM, in case you wanted to know what's going on with those 760 million that apparently nobody wanted:
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/090814-orion-lite.html

It's a little confusing, but apparently Bigelow is building Orion-Lite themselves with LM's "help" (whatever that means) instead of asking some other company (like LM) to build it for them. That's where 760 millions are going to go (at least in part).

-- Pete

I missed this when it came up last month, but given the news that's been developing since then, I'm starting to wonder if Lockheed Martin is positioning themselves for a possible COTS-D bid.

My policy wonk suspicion is that LM is a union shop along with Davis Bacon and service contract act prevailing wages. Bigalow is not at present.IF Bigalow sells a station to the government then Davis Bacon may come into play even if it is not a union shop.If Bigelow provides "services" to the government then contract service act comes into play.Would Orion lite be a service to the government?
there is several ways to proceed if Bigalow becomes a government contractor. Form two Bigalows one is in private business the other is the government contractor. This is very unwieldy as to how do you divide up the workforce?
The second option is what Bigalow is doing now it hires qualified engineers from existing contractors and is already paying prevailing wages but it will only buy components from LM and assembly will be in house so as not to pay what LM pays its workers.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: iamlucky13 on 09/14/2009 07:08 pm
The article about Orion-Lite went open on SPACE.COM, in case you wanted to know what's going on with those 760 million that apparently nobody wanted:
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/090814-orion-lite.html

It's a little confusing, but apparently Bigelow is building Orion-Lite themselves with LM's "help" (whatever that means) instead of asking some other company (like LM) to build it for them. That's where 760 millions are going to go (at least in part).

-- Pete

I missed this when it came up last month, but given the news that's been developing since then, I'm starting to wonder if Lockheed Martin is positioning themselves for a possible COTS-D bid.

And Chris'es latest article also fits along the same lines...not necessarily via COTS, but they would certainly be well positioned to bid for a COTS-D contract if they were already working on it for an exploration program.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: corrodedNut on 01/12/2010 05:39 pm
Here's a  Space News article/interview with Robert Bigelow, via Clark Lindsey:

http://spacenews.com/profiles/100111-robert-bigelow.html

"I also have a design for a “Big Bertha” spacecraft for NASA’s Ares 5. We can create a module that has twice the volume of the entire international space station"

Good stuff...
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: robertross on 01/12/2010 07:18 pm
Here's a  Space News article/interview with Robert Bigelow, via Clark Lindsey:

http://spacenews.com/profiles/100111-robert-bigelow.html

"I also have a design for a “Big Bertha” spacecraft for NASA’s Ares 5. We can create a module that has twice the volume of the entire international space station"

Good stuff...

Nice.

I also like (which I already knew):

"Has NASA considered use of your expandable modules for utilization on the international space station?

"They contacted us a few months ago. We worked on something for them, gave them cost figures and the architecture for what they wanted. They were supposedly impressed and kind of surprised with how relatively inexpensive things were going to be. We don’t know what their intent is."
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 01/12/2010 07:32 pm
A 2100 cu/m hab?  Jeezzzz....stick a few of those together and you have quite the facility.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: 8900 on 01/13/2010 03:31 am
2014/2015
seems quite a significant delay when compared with previous aggressive schedule
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lambda-4 on 01/13/2010 09:40 am
2014/2015
seems quite a significant delay when compared with previous aggressive schedule

Expect more delays. There are just too many unknowns for having any firm schedule, including funding, crew transport, demand, technical possibility etc.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: cgrunska on 01/16/2010 02:16 pm
finally some news! good to hear they are going back to bidding on the manufacturing building

just a few more years to really see what happens, for a variety of projects
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: jongoff on 01/16/2010 06:50 pm
2014/2015
seems quite a significant delay when compared with previous aggressive schedule

Expect more delays. There are just too many unknowns for having any firm schedule, including funding, crew transport, demand, technical possibility etc.

I think the middle two are the biggest unknowns.   Bigelow's business case lives or dies on having multiple domestic commercial crew launch options.  Until there's something serious from more than one supplier, my guess is that Bigelow will take it nice and slow.  The other big open question is how big will the market really be, and is that good enough to make the concept profitable?  I really think the domestic crew launch is the key, because I think he's going to have a hard time "sovereign customers" to take him seriously until he has a believable plan for how he's actually going to access his station.

~Jon
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 01/16/2010 07:39 pm
I really think the domestic crew launch is the key, because I think he's going to have a hard time "sovereign customers" to take him seriously until he has a believable plan for how he's actually going to access his station.

US crew launch is certainly very important, but ESA already appears to be taking him seriously as it is. Some of the architecture documents that came out of ESA in the past two years explicitly refer to cooperation with Bigelow in the event the ISS is scuttled in 2015.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: daver on 01/20/2010 12:35 pm
Nice Bigelow article on Space.com

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/private-space-stations-bigelow-100120.html

Sounds like he is shooting for the moon.

"Beyond low-Earth orbit, Bigelow Aerospace also has its sights on expandable space habitats for Lagrangian Point L1, partway between the sun and the Earth."

""If we can deploy and gang together modules in low-Earth orbit, you can do it in L1...and you are 85 percent of the way to the moon,"" Bigelow said. In fact, one scenario Bigelow Aerospace has already blueprinted is the soft landing of a trio of attached BA-330 modules — including astronauts — on the moon."
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 01/20/2010 01:21 pm
Sounds like the company is less focused on near term development, and more on the long term stuff.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 01/20/2010 01:50 pm

"Beyond low-Earth orbit, Bigelow Aerospace also has its sights on expandable space habitats for Lagrangian Point L1, partway between the sun and the Earth."
"

Building a space station at L1, now that is a dream.
However if you do not have a dream you cannot have a dream come true.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: cuddihy on 01/20/2010 02:36 pm
Nice Bigelow article on Space.com

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/private-space-stations-bigelow-100120.html

Sounds like he is shooting for the moon.

"Beyond low-Earth orbit, Bigelow Aerospace also has its sights on expandable space habitats for Lagrangian Point L1, partway between the sun and the Earth."

""If we can deploy and gang together modules in low-Earth orbit, you can do it in L1...and you are 85 percent of the way to the moon,"" Bigelow said. In fact, one scenario Bigelow Aerospace has already blueprinted is the soft landing of a trio of attached BA-330 modules — including astronauts — on the moon."

Hmm...that would require a fuel depot at L1...inflatable fuel depot anyone?

na, jk. It would make no sense to do an inflatable fuel depot, as the inflatable benefits would be lost in the  inefficiencies of non-cryo propellants.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 01/20/2010 03:07 pm


"Beyond low-Earth orbit, Bigelow Aerospace also has its sights on expandable space habitats for Lagrangian Point L1, partway between the sun and the Earth."

Is this a typo? The article I read says; "Beyond low-Earth orbit, Bigelow Aerospace also has its sights on expandable space habitats for Lagrangian Point L1, partway between the moon and the Earth"
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 01/20/2010 03:07 pm
It would make no sense to do an inflatable fuel depot, as the inflatable benefits would be lost in the  inefficiencies of non-cryo propellants.

For EDSs, not for landers. But on the other hand, if you have a refuelable lander it can serve as a depot and you don't need the inflatables anymore. Besides, storable propellants are nice and dense.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: jongoff on 01/20/2010 03:24 pm
Sounds like the company is less focused on near term development, and more on the long term stuff.

Well, a lot of that is old news.  I saw representations of the lunar lander concept during a tour of their facility something like five years ago.

That said, he can't really execute at all on his business plan without domestic crew launchers in the pipe, so it might actually make sense for him to go a bit long-term on other stuff to keep his team busy while he waits for the commercial crew capabilities to catch up.  It doesn't do him any much to have his LEO station stuff complete and sitting in storage for five years because transportation to reach the station isn't ready yet.

~Jon
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: jongoff on 01/20/2010 03:28 pm
Hmm...that would require a fuel depot at L1...inflatable fuel depot anyone?

na, jk. It would make no sense to do an inflatable fuel depot, as the inflatable benefits would be lost in the  inefficiencies of non-cryo propellants.

You don't necessarily have to do non-cryo propellants.  One of my original ideas for a depot (before I hit on the current single-launch dual-fluid depot concept that the ULA guys independently came up with) was to use inflatable propellant bladders inside a bigelow module.  There are some plastic films that are good down to cryo temperatures, and if you have insulation inside the bladders between the walls and the actual liquids, it might work.  I began to realize though that the heat-leak into those would be pretty bad, and would probably require very aggressive active cooling....naw, I like the dual-fluid depot concept better.  Single launch, preintegrated, 75mT of LOX/LH2.  Even more if you were doing LOX/CH4.

~Jon
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: kch on 01/20/2010 03:47 pm

"Beyond low-Earth orbit, Bigelow Aerospace also has its sights on expandable space habitats for Lagrangian Point L1, partway between the sun and the Earth."

Is this a typo? The article I read says; "Beyond low-Earth orbit, Bigelow Aerospace also has its sights on expandable space habitats for Lagrangian Point L1, partway between the moon and the Earth"

The article had been edited by the time you (and I) read it -- check the first comment & the reply to it.  There are, of course, two L1 points near Earth -- EML-1 (which was the one intended) and SEL-1 (which was the one originally described).  :)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: infocat13 on 01/20/2010 03:53 pm
Bigalow space station at L-1 or L-2 as a government purchased system.Government gets it there.The ULA fuel depot would be hiding in the shade of the Bigalow modules.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 01/20/2010 04:10 pm
You don't necessarily have to do non-cryo propellants.

Even though I am a vocal proponent of storable propellants as a stepping stone to commercial development of space, let me agree with Jon here, though - as in my previous post - for a different reason than the one given in the post I replied to.

I have no strong opinions on whether commercial endeavours should use storable propellants. Commercial exploration activities will do whatever seems most convenient to them. The argument for starting with storable propellants for government programs is that it would maximise the benefit to commercial development of space at no cost to exploration. This is because such an approach would minimise development cost, risk and time. Refuelable storable landers give all the benefits of full cryogenic depots that matter for the next twenty years and maybe more, both to commercial development of space and exploration. I know I'm in a small minority on this point. It does seem a point that is often (though not universally) overlooked. It's ironic that an approach designed to further the cause of commercial development of space does not apply to fully commercial activities in space themselves.

Jon gives some good alternative precursors to full cryogenic depots in a highly recommended recent post (http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/01/random-thoughts-lunar-one-way-to-stay-for-a-while/) on his equally highly recommended blog (http://selenianboondocks.com), but they would require sacrificing capability and/or safety, a weakness from which storable landers would not suffer. Those weaknesses certainly aren't show stoppers, but it's good to know they can be avoided. Just as we don't have to concede the point that large payload fairings or large throw weight are crucial (as opposed to somewhat desirable), we don't have to concede the points that HLV allows for earlier or more capable exploration. It just ain't so. The approach Jon sketches might very well be close to optimal for early purely commercial moon missions though. Ironically, what it wouldn't do is to attack one of the big hurdles to commercial development of space, cost to orbit. Synergy with government funded exploration would allow for that.

Conversely the impact of a potential Bigelow station at L1 on government exploration would likely be enormous. If Bigelow manages to go beyond LEO before NASA does, then that will likely require great changes at NASA. It might then make more sense for NASA to focus on rigid landers (either in house or externally procured) and to leave habs and inflatable technology in general to Bigelow and other commercial providers. This too would be synergy, and also a case of technology transfer since inflatable technology was developed by NASA itself, not Bigelow.

In either case what's optimal for one player might not be optimal for the other, though each following their own way would enhance the goals of commercial development of space and exploration. That would be true synergy.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: jabe on 01/20/2010 05:41 pm
I'm curious about life support for these things..  They must be a complicated piece of machinery! do they outsource it or have they made their own.
cheers
jb
BTW how much research have they done on the iss if any on using plants as a supplement to food as well as means of a hobby during "downtime" and it useful to remove CO2
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 01/20/2010 06:54 pm
According to Paragon Space Development's page they did work on the Genesis modules pressure system, so perhaps that relationship has evolved. 

http://www.paragonsdc.com/paragon_projects_09.php

EDIT: the bio for their CSO Lance Bush (http://www.spacenews.com/profiles/091207-lance-bush.html) contains this;

Quote
Sixteen years later, Paragon is busy building parts for the thermal control system on NASA’s Orion Crew Exploration Vehicle, helping design the U.S. space agency’s next-generation spacesuit as part of Oceaneering International’s team and providing life-support expertise to multiple commercial firms, including Space Exploration Technologies (SpaceX) and Bigelow Aerospace.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: cuddihy on 01/20/2010 06:55 pm
I'm curious about life support for these things..  They must be a complicated piece of machinery! do they outsource it or have they made their own.
cheers
jb
BTW how much research have they done on the iss if any on using plants as a supplement to food as well as means of a hobby during "downtime" and it useful to remove CO2

sigh.

Answer to #1:http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/

answer to #2:http://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Anasa.gov+growing+plants+iss&form=QBRE&qs=n&sc=8-28

When are we going to get a "Report this poster as someone who refuses to do the most basic googling prior to posting" button?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: jabe on 01/20/2010 07:23 pm

When are we going to get a "Report this poster as someone who refuses to do the most basic googling prior to posting" button?
Guilty as charged.. had a lazy moment..where is that delete button... dam...
jb
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: SpacexULA on 01/20/2010 08:12 pm

When are we going to get a "Report this poster as someone who refuses to do the most basic googling prior to posting" button?
Guilty as charged.. had a lazy moment..where is that delete button... dam...
jb

Both are beside the Insert button.  Stop it. ;)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 01/21/2010 06:10 am
Bigalow space station at L-1 or L-2 as a government purchased system.Government gets it there.The ULA fuel depot would be hiding in the shade of the Bigalow modules.

If the propellant depot has an in space control room then ULA/Shell/BP/etc. may wish to put the control room inside the main space station.  That is something Bigelow can discus with the fuel company and NASA.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: jongoff on 01/21/2010 07:11 am
Jon gives some good alternative precursors to full cryogenic depots in a highly recommended recent post (http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/01/random-thoughts-lunar-one-way-to-stay-for-a-while/) on his equally highly recommended blog (http://selenianboondocks.com), but they would require sacrificing capability and/or safety, a weakness from which storable landers would not suffer.

Martijn, FWIW that post of mine wasn't about cryogenic depots or landers--in fact, I didn't say anything about what propulsion system the landers would use.  They could just as easily be cryogenic ones as storables.  But discussion of that (and my new post on the concept) probably belongs somewhere else--either in Advanced Concepts or Exploration Alternatives.

~Jon
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 01/21/2010 12:53 pm
Will answer there and limit my replies here to what applies specifically to Bigelow.

A Bigelow station at L1 could be a game changer, especially if Bigelow goes beyond LEO before NASA does. Any kind of propellant transfer at a Lagrange point will also be a game changer. It doesn't look as if a Bigelow hab itself is very useful as a depot though. It could still be very useful to have it colocated with a depot or depot precursor.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 01/21/2010 01:46 pm
Will answer there and limit my replies here to what applies specifically to Bigelow.

A Bigelow station at L1 could be a game changer, especially if Bigelow goes beyond LEO before NASA does. Any kind of propellant transfer at a Lagrange point will also be a game changer. It doesn't look as if a Bigelow hab itself is very useful as a depot though. It could still be very useful to have it colocated with a depot or depot precursor.

This is getting on for being a mini motorway service station in space (without the shop).

A resupply system will be needed, the extra delta-v to get to L1/L2 will need investigating, probably in a different thread.

Edit:  I have created thread Viability of spacestation at EML1 or EML2 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=20147) for this.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 01/21/2010 02:56 pm
Any kind of propellant transfer at a Lagrange point will also be a game changer. It doesn't look as if a Bigelow hab itself is very useful as a depot though. It could still be very useful to have it colocated with a depot or depot precursor.
Why couldn't a Bigelow hab be designed specifically to be a propellant depot?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 01/21/2010 03:00 pm
It probably could be, but would there be much benefit? An ACES-based depot would probably be better for cryogenics and a refuelable lander could serve as an interim depot for storable propellant.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: jongoff on 01/22/2010 06:19 am
Any kind of propellant transfer at a Lagrange point will also be a game changer. It doesn't look as if a Bigelow hab itself is very useful as a depot though. It could still be very useful to have it colocated with a depot or depot precursor.
Why couldn't a Bigelow hab be designed specifically to be a propellant depot?

Would.YOU.want.to.live.next.to.big.tanks.of.high.power.rocket.fuel?

If you're going to the Moon or Mars, how much of a choice do you really have?  :-)  Seriously though, there are some pretty reasonable precautions you can take on a propellant depot to *drastically* reduce the risk of explosions or deflagrations--the simplest being to physically separate the fuel and oxidizer with a well-vented region between the two.

~Jon
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: William Barton on 01/22/2010 11:20 am
Any kind of propellant transfer at a Lagrange point will also be a game changer. It doesn't look as if a Bigelow hab itself is very useful as a depot though. It could still be very useful to have it colocated with a depot or depot precursor.
Why couldn't a Bigelow hab be designed specifically to be a propellant depot?

Would.YOU.want.to.live.next.to.big.tanks.of.high.power.rocket.fuel?

There's 50 gallons of gasoline on the other side of the wall I'm sitting by right now. And why are there periods instead of spaces between your words?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 01/22/2010 11:38 am
Would.YOU.want.to.live.next.to.big.tanks.of.high.power.rocket.fuel?
Space Travel & Exploration are dangerous. Period. We say that all the time Mike, time to put up or shut up.
If we have a Lunar L-1 station set to put Hab's on the Lunar surface, where exactly do you suggest we put the Gas Station?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 01/22/2010 12:04 pm
Lets do a worse case scenario.  If the LOX tank crashes into the hydrogen (or RP-1) tank how far away does the Sundancer need to be for its windows to survive?

Remote controlling the propellant depot from 100 miles away is not hard.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: SpacexULA on 01/22/2010 01:09 pm
Would.YOU.want.to.live.next.to.big.tanks.of.high.power.rocket.fuel?

Would you want to live near tanks of ammonia, hydrazine, & pure oxygen?  Ohh yea that's the ISS, I guess people are willing to spend 20 million for that privilege already.  But the ISS can't take a shotgun blast quite as well as a Bigelow claims it can.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 01/22/2010 04:55 pm
Why couldn't a Bigelow hab be designed specifically to be a propellant depot?

Materials science.
Bigalow habs do not use materials that work well with cryogenic propellants.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: bad_astra on 01/22/2010 07:27 pm
Why would the fuel depot necessarily be cryo fuels? Hydrogen peroxide could be stored, along with RP1. Loose a lot of ISP, but you don't have to invent new long term storage methods, just big-dumb-upper-stages.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: jongoff on 01/22/2010 07:33 pm
Why couldn't a Bigelow hab be designed specifically to be a propellant depot?

Materials science.
Bigalow habs do not use materials that work well with cryogenic propellants.

Oh, I've thought of ways that could probably make it work--the more important thing is that there are better ways of doing the job that probably wouldn't be as much of a science project.  To me, that's why.

~Jon
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: SpacexULA on 01/24/2010 02:50 pm
I.spilled.water.on.my.keyboard.the.other.day.and.haven't.gotten.to.the.store.for.a.replacement.yet..

The.Space.bar.is.hosed...

Don't type too long like that.  You will be inserting periods into emails at work next week.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Orbital Debris on 01/27/2010 02:54 pm
Quote

Oh, I've thought of ways that could probably make it work--the more important thing is that there are better ways of doing the job that probably wouldn't be as much of a science project.  To me, that's why.

~Jon

This.  Expandables are all about the interior volume for living space.  Tanks are on the outside.  The node-prop bus would be feasible, but probably not big enough.  A Bigelow complex would only be good if it was required to be man tended.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 01/28/2010 03:35 pm
Quote
Orbital Technologies Corporation (ORBITEC) Trusted by Bigelow Aerospace to provide Environmental Control and Life Support (ECLSS) for Sundancer
Madison, Wisconsin – January 28, 2010 ORBITEC’s Human Support Systems and Instrumentation Division continues its relationship with Bigelow Aerospace to develop and integrate ORBITEC'S cost-effective environmental control and life support systems, subsystems, and components for Sundancer and commercial space travel and habitation.
Robert Bigelow, President and owner of Bigelow Aerospace stated that “We have had a long standing beneficial relationship with ORBITEC. Their capabilities and commercial business practice mesh well with our company.” Mr. Bigelow also states “My expectation for ORBITEC to provide safe and reliable solutions, to build and deliver on time, and to collaboratively work with my team to provide cost effective product is the reason I have them on the Bigelow team.”

http://www.orbitec.com/documents/ORBITEC_Bigelow_PressRelease_21Jan2010.pdf (http://www.orbitec.com/documents/ORBITEC_Bigelow_PressRelease_21Jan2010.pdf)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 01/28/2010 04:45 pm
 Feb. 2009 PDF showing a BA330 diagram + where ORBITEC's products could be used.... (http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2010/01/26/126204/humantrifoldfinal13Feb09noBleeds.pdf)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Orbital Debris on 01/28/2010 08:08 pm
I'm rather mystified as to why they would put out a press release with this information. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 01/28/2010 08:49 pm
Their hab orientation is all wrong for a Bigelow inflatable.
It's laid out like space-lab, as if the hab lay horizontally on the ground, like a very long, single story house.
All the Bigelow hab design concepts I've seen use a central core running the full length, and are oriented like a multi story building, standing vertically on the ground. That central core houses all the permanent hardware and power, liquid and life support services, running on shared busses between "floors".
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Orbital Debris on 01/28/2010 09:04 pm
Actually, the Bigelow designs are oriented longitudinally.  The 'layer cake' was used for the transhab designs.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 01/28/2010 09:07 pm
Actually, the Bigelow designs are oriented longitudinally.  The 'layer cake' was used for the transhab designs.

Examples with links?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 01/28/2010 10:56 pm
Bigelow mockup images....d/l'ed off their site before the links disappeared.  The first pretty much matches ORBITEC's concept art and the mid-deck "floor" looks a lot like the last images "floor".  The rest show the core framing.

A lot of info can be gleaned if you visit http://www.freepatentsonline.com/.  Search for Robert T. Bigelow or Bigelow Aerospace.  It'll list the patents, many of which are for the modules and their subsystems while many of the others are just flat entertaining.

This one is the pdf for the module core & bulkheads;

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20050120638.pdf
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: robertross on 01/29/2010 12:05 am
Bigelow mockup images....d/l'ed off their site before the links disappeared.  The first pretty much matches ORBITEC's concept art and the mid-deck "floor" looks a lot like the last images "floor".  The rest show the core framing.

A lot of info can be gleaned if you visit http://www.freepatentsonline.com/.  Search for Robert T. Bigelow or Bigelow Aerospace.  It'll list the patents, many of which are for the modules and their subsystems while many of the others are just flat entertaining.

This one is the pdf for the module core & bulkheads;

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20050120638.pdf

Cool. Thanks for the links & images.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: jongoff on 01/29/2010 02:32 am
Bigelow mockup images....d/l'ed off their site before the links disappeared.  The first pretty much matches ORBITEC's concept art and the mid-deck "floor" looks a lot like the last images "floor".  The rest show the core framing.

I can vouch for those pictures--I went on a tour there a few years ago, and that's how they had the layout.

~Jon
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 01/29/2010 05:57 am
Those designs are all for Earth gravity.  Under thrust the bottom will be at the back.  Under rotation the bottom will be the outside with the centre column as the top.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: CriX on 01/29/2010 06:13 am
Those designs actually look horribly cramped.  Can't even "stand up" in most of those volumes except for the last one.  I'm also confused with this configuration considering artificial Gs during propulsion, but I suppose most of the time spent inside would be under zerog.

I assume these are the 330?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 01/29/2010 06:15 am
They are the 330, and in one of his most recent interviews for MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34957156/ns/technology_and_science-space/) Bigelow stated that astronauts who have visited his complex are "flabbergasted"  at how spacious they are.

Quote
Astronaut visitors to the module mockups "are flabbergasted by the volume...they are really taken aback by how large these are," Bigelow said. "We are actually looking for a couple of astronauts now to join our marketing program."

"Under rotation the bottom will be the outside"

Rotational gravity? In all my digging about BA's modules I've never seen anything about rotational gravity, and once attached to a hub/power bus and other modules in the way Bigelow has presented that would be impossible. 

What I have read is that the core provides rigidity, especially during launch, and stowage for gear and provisions before and during launch.  On orbit and after inflation this is removed and placed in their use/storage areas.  Conduit and airflow goes through the compartments inside core framing members, as per one of the patents*.  Berths, exercise and work areas are arranged as shown in drawing 1 in every Bigelow generated concept I've seen.

Abut the Sundancer schedule slip - that has more to do with the economy causing Bigelow to slow down than SpaceX (separate news report).  Seems Bigelow hasn't built the construction hangar for the large modules yet, though it should be done this fall;

Quote
One key item on tap for Bigelow Aerospace this year is constructing the A-3 building, Bigelow noted, a structure that will offer 265,000 square feet and is destined to be an assembly-line facility for the company's spacecraft.

* http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20040250503.pdf

(one example - variants are shown)




Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jorge on 01/29/2010 06:24 am
Those designs are all for Earth gravity.  Under thrust the bottom will be at the back.  Under rotation the bottom will be the outside with the centre column as the top.

The radius of these modules is way too small for rotational gravity, and there is no evidence that Bigelow is considering that anyway.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 01/29/2010 07:14 am
Those designs are all for Earth gravity.  Under thrust the bottom will be at the back.  Under rotation the bottom will be the outside with the centre column as the top.

The radius of these modules is way too small for rotational gravity, and there is no evidence that Bigelow is considering that anyway.

There are quite a lot of people who want to add artificial gravity to Mars transfer vehicles.  Even 0.1 g would send the body's liquids towards the feet.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 01/29/2010 07:27 am
True, but unless you rearrange the guts then put a Sundancer/BA330 at either end of a tether (or hub extensions) and rotate them around a central hub/power bus it ain't gonna happen with the current setup.  Even then you need to worry about the stresses on the works when you fire the engine(s), unless it's a high SI unit like VASIMR.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Spacenuts on 01/29/2010 09:47 am
Question.  If I needed a minimum of  1,000 cubic meters of space and lets say three BA-330's qualifies for arguments sake. Due to what must be a nightmare of trying to "fold in" the thick shell, would it be enough of an advantage to have a larger diameter "onion shell" process to overcome the in space assembly disadvantages?  I was thinking specifically if you could separate the layers into (for this theoretical scenario) say three parts, then you could more efficiently pack each launch and end up with more volume. Or am I way off base?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 01/29/2010 10:56 am
Question: How the heck to they plan to outfit those modules?

I'm presuming here that they are launched in a collapsable form that inflates upon reaching orbit.  Nothing could be attached to the outer walls in such a scenario.  It strikes me that Chuck's 'axial core' concept is realistic as it is the only place you would be able to put such service lines.  Radial dividing walls can be made of flexible plastic without too much trouble but, again, nothing too substantial could be attached to them at launch.

It seems to me that a Bigelow module would need at least one outfitting flight to move equipment from its launch racks to places along the outer and radial walls.  Not to do so would be effectively to abandon the majority of the module's usable wall area to any major mission-significant role.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 01/29/2010 11:56 am
Question: How the heck to they plan to outfit those modules?


It seems to me that a Bigelow module would need at least one outfitting flight to move equipment from its launch racks to places along the outer and radial walls. 
Why would this be a problem?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 01/29/2010 11:58 am
Why would this be a problem?

Because Ben wants to sell a solution. ;)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 01/29/2010 02:18 pm
Question: How the heck to they plan to outfit those modules?

It seems to me that a Bigelow module would need at least one outfitting flight to move equipment from its launch racks to places along the outer and radial walls. 

Why would this be a problem?

Actually, I'm not suggesting that it is a problem.  However, it is a factor that needs to be taken into consideration when planning the use and utilisation of these modules.  They cannot, for example, be used in a 'launch and go' mission but will need to be assembled and outfitted in LEO.  This limits their application to such things as a direct ascent planetary mission.

Just remember that every mission to a hypothetical module that is 'assembly' rather than 'utilisation' is an increase in cost and decrease in revenue.  Although the history of the ISS shows that some utilisation can be carried out during the assembly of the vehicle (I am talking prior to the launch of the Destiny laboratory module), it is only on a limited scale.  For a commercial spacecraft, every minute you're not using some of its space for a revenue-generating mission, you are simply creating negative numbers on the balance sheet.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Orbital Debris on 01/29/2010 06:02 pm
Re: Bigelow Mockup images - the last four photos are interior of rigid mockups.  They are very early concepts retained for the benefit of expressing interior volumes to visitors, and do not contain the central core. 

No rotation is planned at this point.  Most designs are LEO, but the early conceptual pictures include lunar, which is why some actual have an 'up'.

I believe Bigelow put out in his business plan that an allowance was made for outfitting and maintenance. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: daver on 03/17/2010 03:22 pm
Bigeleow has a new video up on their web site.  Forgive me if it was posted else where.

http://bigelowaerospace.com/news/

There is a 2nd video on the same page but I couldn't watch the whole thing.  It had a lawyer talking about "climate change".   I guess Bigelow knows how to use the catch words to try and get money from Obama. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: rklaehn on 03/17/2010 07:00 pm
Question: How the heck to they plan to outfit those modules?

I'm presuming here that they are launched in a collapsable form that inflates upon reaching orbit.  Nothing could be attached to the outer walls in such a scenario.  It strikes me that Chuck's 'axial core' concept is realistic as it is the only place you would be able to put such service lines.  Radial dividing walls can be made of flexible plastic without too much trouble but, again, nothing too substantial could be attached to them at launch.

It seems to me that a Bigelow module would need at least one outfitting flight to move equipment from its launch racks to places along the outer and radial walls.  Not to do so would be effectively to abandon the majority of the module's usable wall area to any major mission-significant role.

Who says that putting the equipment at the outer wall is the best solution? I think keeping the big pieces of equipment such as life support systems and sanitary facilities in the central core would be better. That way the equipment does not have to match the curving wall and can be reached from all sides. In addition, the outer walls remain open to inspection for damage and repair. The core of a BA330 module would be about a 2m x 2m x 12m. That is a lot of room to store equipment.

Also it is not necessarily the best approach to cram each module full of equipment like ISS modules. Given a low-weight pressure vessel it might be better to distribute the equipment over a larger volume to simplify cooling.

An ISS module can not be operated at all without significant active cooling (ammonia cooling loops and radiators). Maybe a bigelow module with a larger surface area per ton of equipment can get by with mostly passive cooling.

More volume also has other advantages such as more time until a failure of the CO2 scrubber becomes critical. And the mass of the life support system does not scale with the volume of the station but with the number of occupants.

I think the lightweight pressure vessels enabled by inflatable modules require a complete rethink of how you build a space station.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: telomerase99 on 04/07/2010 07:11 am
Mike Gold is an enthusiastic character. It makes me wonder with all that extra volume if it wouldn't be possible to create resource recycling technology that is based on biological principles as opposed to physical mechanical systems that are on ISS.

In other words could you recycle urine into water with micro-organisms and air with kelp beds and could CO2 be scrubbed with plant life. Remember biosphere 2? That kind of research would be interesting!

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: kkattula on 04/07/2010 07:21 am
Mike Gold is an enthusiastic character. It makes me wonder with all that extra volume if it wouldn't be possible to create resource recycling technology that is based on biological principles as opposed to physical mechanical systems that are on ISS.

In other words could you recycle urine into water with micro-organisms and air with kelp beds and could CO2 be scrubbed with plant life. Remember biosphere 2? That kind of research would be interesting!


IMHO, that would be asking for trouble. Mechanical recycling systems have been working for decades in nuke subs. Sure they don't have to cope with zero-g and are not as mass limited as those on the ISS, but those are problems that can be addressed by better design, and/or higher mass allowances.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 04/07/2010 10:30 am
ESA has long been studying bioregenerative life support under its Melissa project. There are some nice pictures of a bioreactor, but I can't find them right now. Lots of room for plants could be good for astronaut/tourist well-being as well.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 04/07/2010 02:24 pm
ESA has long been studying bioregenerative life support under its Melissa project. There are some nice pictures of a bioreactor, but I can't find them right now. Lots of room for plants could be good for astronaut/tourist well-being as well.

There are tons of images and some really good papers out there on both bioregenerative life support systems (BRLSS) and closed ecological life support systems (CELSS). Google is your friend.

BTW, I am a strong supporter of these systems. But they won't fit on today's small spacecraft. We need bigger spacecraft for these to work.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 04/07/2010 02:40 pm
BTW, I am a strong supporter of these systems. But they won't fit on today's small spacecraft. We need bigger spacecraft for these to work.

What is the minimum size needed for these capabilities? I've seen a few sci-fi books where an entire seperate module in the crew vehicle is required for a BRLSS system but this could be exaggerated.

With current launch capabilities (assuming that cryogenic propellent transfer isn't available) I can't see there being the capability to launch anything bigger than a Mars Direct hab/lander through TOI in the immediate future.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 04/07/2010 02:58 pm
With current launch capabilities (assuming that cryogenic propellent transfer isn't available) I can't see there being the capability to launch anything bigger than a Mars Direct hab/lander through TOI in the immediate future.

Not a problem with a Lagrange staging point. And that of course would be Bigelow's next target after LEO.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 04/07/2010 04:02 pm
BTW, I am a strong supporter of these systems. But they won't fit on today's small spacecraft. We need bigger spacecraft for these to work.

What is the minimum size needed for these capabilities? I've seen a few sci-fi books where an entire seperate module in the crew vehicle is required for a BRLSS system but this could be exaggerated.

Sci-fi. Want a better idea of actual size? Look at Bio-Dome 2. That supported, what? Six people? Anyone know?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: hop on 04/07/2010 07:00 pm
Sci-fi. Want a better idea of actual size? Look at Bio-Dome 2. That supported, what? Six people? Anyone know?
Arguably, Biosphere-2 didn't demonstrate that it could successfully support any number. However, it's not really a good example, they were trying to build an entire ecosystem that replicated a bunch of natural environments (a fundamentally misguided approach for a first attempt, IMO), not optimize for size/efficiency.  You could build much more compact systems if your goal is only to close specific portions of an ECLS loops. Advances in bioengineering may help this considerably.

The Russians did some work that was much more closely applicable to spacecraft. I think there was a thread about this a while back, but a quick search didn't turn it up.

That said, I'm not sure such systems will be more reliable/lower maintenance than conventional ones, at least not at scales we can contemplate now. Keeping living things healthy in a closed environment can be at least as tricky as keeping machines healthy.

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: bad_astra on 04/07/2010 07:11 pm
The problem is that it wouldn't be a closed environment. You'd have several vector points exchanging as crew arrive or leave. Bio systems may well supplant mechanical lief support, but I doubt it any time soon, and even then not without a mechcanical backup. We're not close to being there.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Chandonn on 04/07/2010 08:19 pm
Is it just me or is this getting increasingly off-topic?  What does Bigelow have to do with Biosphere 2?  Can we get back on topic and maybe move the regen life support discussion to a more appropriate thread?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Chris Bergin on 04/07/2010 08:34 pm
Thanks to someone alerting the thread. Keep it on topic.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Patchouli on 04/07/2010 08:45 pm
Sci-fi. Want a better idea of actual size? Look at Bio-Dome 2. That supported, what? Six people? Anyone know?
Arguably, Biosphere-2 didn't demonstrate that it could successfully support any number. However, it's not really a good example, they were trying to build an entire ecosystem that replicated a bunch of natural environments (a fundamentally misguided approach for a first attempt, IMO), not optimize for size/efficiency.  You could build much more compact systems if your goal is only to close specific portions of an ECLS loops. Advances in bioengineering may help this considerably.

The Russians did some work that was much more closely applicable to spacecraft. I think there was a thread about this a while back, but a quick search didn't turn it up.

That said, I'm not sure such systems will be more reliable/lower maintenance than conventional ones, at least not at scales we can contemplate now. Keeping living things healthy in a closed environment can be at least as tricky as keeping machines healthy.



You mean the BIOS-3 experiment.
BIOS ironically is about the size of a Bigelow module.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BIOS-3

It was more inline with what would be seen on a near term spacecraft as it tried to be mostly closed loop vs attempting to be 100% closed.
Bigelow's first station is to consist of one Sundancer ,a combined docking node and propulsion unit, and two or three BA-330s.


Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: telomerase99 on 04/08/2010 04:45 am
I'd have to fundamentally disagree with the contention that my comment was off topic given that it was in direct reply to an interview that Bigelows Gold discussed utilization of the BA modules for biological research.

If you watch the interview Gold clearly has no "f" ing idea what he is talking about. Im a physician and i know a little bit about biotech and his comments make no sense whatsoever.

However, given the interview that was immediately posted where he talks about bioresearch I don't understand why I can't bring up closed loop biological life support as a potential realistic application for BA modules.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 04/09/2010 03:19 am

However, given the interview that was immediately posted where he talks about bioresearch I don't understand why I can't bring up closed loop biological life support as a potential realistic application for BA modules.

Unless Bigelow are doing it as a standard part of their spacestations closed loop biological life support would logically belong in its own thread in the the 'Advanced Concepts' section.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 04/09/2010 06:10 am
Isn't ORBITEC doing Bigelow's environmental controls?

http://www.orbitec.com/documents/ORBITEC_Bigelow_PressRelease_21Jan2010.pdf

Quote
>
ORBITEC is partnering with Bigelow Aerospace’s technical staff to develop systems for pressure control, oxygen production and supply, hydrogen supply, temperature and humidity control, ventilation, thermal transport, water processing, gas contaminant removal, carbon dioxide removal, and atmospheric composition monitoring.
>
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Nathan on 04/09/2010 11:55 am
The link below suggests seven assembly flights for the sundancer module

http://www.parabolicarc.com/2010/04/08/space-access-10-jeff-patton-united-launch-alliance/#more-13422

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 04/09/2010 02:28 pm
The link below suggests seven assembly flights for the sundancer module

A very brief comment and one that is very unclear.  Are they talking seven missions to outfit a single Sundancer module, or are they talking about seven launches to assemble a multi-module complex?

If it is the former, then Bigelow better have a very big seed fund to cover his start-up costs because having to fly seven missions (likely two years) before he can start flying customers up to the module would be an enormous drain on capital.

FWIW, I suspect it is the latter and possibly may refer to the 3 x Sundancer space station concept I have seen illustrated on this very forum.  If so, we are looking at three module launches, plus four outfitting flights (at least crewed ones; I suspect you would need the same again in cargo launches to carry heavier items for installation in and on the complex).  If I'm right, that compares favorably with what is needed for rigid-hulled space stations like Mir and ISS.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Pittsburgh on 04/09/2010 02:47 pm
The more interesting thing in the Patton article is the planned launch of a second space station (or 4th, if you count the two up there already) in 2016.

"He reviewed Bigelow’s schedule, which begins in 2014 with seven assembly launches for its Sundancer space station. The flight rate goes up to 20 launches per year when the company launches its second station in 2106. Patton said that NASA’s commercial crew program would serve as a basis under which ULA could offer the same service to Bigelow, creating economies of scale that would make it profitable for ULA."

If all of this business is going in ULA's direction, I also wonder if the Bigelow line on SpaceX's manifest is going to vanish at some point.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robotbeat on 04/09/2010 03:49 pm
I expect money to go toward SpaceX once they launch and successfully recover a Dragon capsule (i.e. within a year).

Wow, 20 launches a year is a lot. I hope they get to that point. It will be good for everyone.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: 8900 on 04/09/2010 04:13 pm
The link below suggests seven assembly flights for the sundancer module

http://www.parabolicarc.com/2010/04/08/space-access-10-jeff-patton-united-launch-alliance/#more-13422
The flight rate goes up to 20 launches per year when the company launches its second station in 2106
 :o lol
2106...definitely a typo there
and sundancer is one single module, you can't seperate it and launch it on 7 launches (and not necessary)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Freddie on 04/10/2010 03:37 pm


A news article titled "Bigelow Aerospace eyes Wallops for rocket launches" can be read at http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-local_bigelow-wallops_0410apr10,0,6055990.story.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 04/10/2010 06:06 pm
Quote
Some of its operations, such as Atlas V, could shift to Wallops, Gold said. Such a move could create hundreds of high-paying jobs on the Eastern Shore.


This article doesn't make much sense, I dont think the reporter grasps the facts that well.  There is not any way Atlas V would be launched from Wallops, way too expensive compared to simply using existing infrastructure at LC-41.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Norm Hartnett on 04/10/2010 06:13 pm
Is Bigelow considering the Taurus II?

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: coach on 04/15/2010 03:01 pm
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/private-moon-bases-bigelow-aerospace-100414.html

RB's planning some jumbo inflatables...

"Bigelow Aerospace envisions expandable habitats offering 2,100 cubic meters of volume — nearly twice the capacity available on the International Space Station — while another plan sketches out use of a super-jumbo structure providing 3,240 cubic meters of volume."

Coach
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 04/15/2010 03:15 pm
All very interesting, hypothetically speaking but utterly pointless so long as there isn't a crew transfer system to get people there.  Of course, that could sum up Bigelow's entire product line, really. :-\
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: neilh on 04/15/2010 06:30 pm
All very interesting, hypothetically speaking but utterly pointless so long as there isn't a crew transfer system to get people there.  Of course, that could sum up Bigelow's entire product line, really. :-\

It's an interesting chicken-and-egg problem.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: 8900 on 04/20/2010 03:43 pm
All very interesting, hypothetically speaking but utterly pointless so long as there isn't a crew transfer system to get people there.  Of course, that could sum up Bigelow's entire product line, really. :-\

It's an interesting chicken-and-egg problem.
we still don't have any way to get people up there (bigelow space station)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Garrett on 04/21/2010 09:21 pm
All very interesting, hypothetically speaking but utterly pointless so long as there isn't a crew transfer system to get people there.  Of course, that could sum up Bigelow's entire product line, really. :-\

It's an interesting chicken-and-egg problem.

Just nitpicking: not sure that analogy is well suited to the situation.
Maybe more like the cart before the horse/donkey?

Or maybe in the future people will just say that something is "an interesting space station-and-spaceship problem"  :P
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 04/22/2010 09:43 am
All very interesting, hypothetically speaking but utterly pointless so long as there isn't a crew transfer system to get people there.  Of course, that could sum up Bigelow's entire product line, really. :-\

It's an interesting chicken-and-egg problem.

Agreed - You could argue that there's no point launching a crew-ready space module if you have no way of getting people to it.  However, it is going to be difficult getting capital to fund the crew transfer vehicle if you don't have a destination in mind.  I guess that is why commercial crew to the ISS is considered such an important first step.

Onto other related matters:

I read once (I forget where) that there were plans to attach a Bigelow module to the ISS for evaluation purposes and, possibly, to run a simulated Mars mission with a crew sealed into the module for the duration.  Has anything further been said about this, officially or unofficially?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 04/22/2010 06:50 pm
All very interesting, hypothetically speaking but utterly pointless so long as there isn't a crew transfer system to get people there.  Of course, that could sum up Bigelow's entire product line, really. :-\

It's an interesting chicken-and-egg problem.

Agreed - You could argue that there's no point launching a crew-ready space module if you have no way of getting people to it.  However, it is going to be difficult getting capital to fund the crew transfer vehicle if you don't have a destination in mind.  I guess that is why commercial crew to the ISS is considered such an important first step.

Onto other related matters:

I read once (I forget where) that there were plans to attach a Bigelow module to the ISS for evaluation purposes and, possibly, to run a simulated Mars mission with a crew sealed into the module for the duration.  Has anything further been said about this, officially or unofficially?

At the time it wasn't a Bigelow module, it was TransHab, owned by NASA. They were going to attach a habitation module for normal station crew as well as planning a trans Martian hab as part of ongoing medical/physological experimentation. That hab was dependent on future developments in EELSS.

NASA ultimately transferred the TransHab technology to Bigelow and divested itself of all the rights because they considered it not worth developing. Funny, now Bigelow is likely to eventually replace NASA's LEO facilities, one hab at a time - and make a handsome profit doing it. :)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: bad_astra on 04/22/2010 06:55 pm
As I recall there was some congressional grumbling over Transhab because it appeared that NASA was basically building a backdoor hab module for a Mars transit vehicle when it had no budget to do so. Ultimately the aluminum hab module was picked, but that, along with the US prop module, was nixed from the final design. I wonder what they did with the shell.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 04/22/2010 06:59 pm
NASA ultimately transferred the TransHab technology to Bigelow and divested itself of all the rights because they considered it not worth developing.

I believe NASA only licensed the technology to Bigelow and retains the right to use it for itself. Bigelow apparently has developed the technology further and NASA may not have a right to use Bigelow's improvements.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: daveklingler on 04/22/2010 07:05 pm
NASA ultimately transferred the TransHab technology to Bigelow and divested itself of all the rights because they considered it not worth developing.

I believe NASA only licensed the technology to Bigelow and retains the right to use it for itself. Bigelow apparently has developed the technology further and NASA may not have a right to use Bigelow's improvements.

From what I understand of the interviews I've read with Bob Bigelow, NASA Transhab folks were constantly underfunded and they were happy to see some progress being made.  The last time I saw a description of Bigelow's inflatable operations, it was to the effect that both parties happily share information.  Quoth a NASA employee, "We spend a lot of time over there."
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: neilh on 04/22/2010 09:15 pm
I read once (I forget where) that there were plans to attach a Bigelow module to the ISS for evaluation purposes and, possibly, to run a simulated Mars mission with a crew sealed into the module for the duration.  Has anything further been said about this, officially or unofficially?

It's one of the three near-term Flagship Technology Demonstrator missions listed in FY2011:
http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/428356main_Exploration.pdf
Quote
In FY 2011, NASA will initiate several Flagship Technology Demonstrators, each with an expected lifecycle cost in the $400 million to $1 billion range, over a lifetime of five years or less, with the first flying no later than 2014. In pursuit of these goals, international, commercial, and other government agency partners will be actively pursued as integrated team members where appropriate. NASA will not give responsibility for all demonstrations to any single NASA center but rather looks forward to engaging with the expertise of various centers to accomplish these objectives. Specific architecture and approach for missions to demonstrate key capabilities will be developed for initiation in FY2011. Technologies targeted for demonstration will likely include:

...
Lightweight/Inflatable Modules: Inflatable modules can be larger, lighter, and potentially less expensive for future use than the rigid modules currently used by the International Space Station (ISS). Working closely with industry and international partners who have already demonstrated a number of capabilities and interest in this arena, and building on previous ESMD investments, NASA will pursue a demonstration of lightweight/inflatable modules for eventual in-space habitation, transportation, or even surface habitation needs. The demonstration could involve tests of a variety of systems, including closed-loop life support, radiation shielding, thermal control, communications, and interfaces between the module and external systems. Use of the ISS as the testbed for this technology is an option being considered to potentially benefit both programs.
...
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robotbeat on 04/22/2010 09:34 pm
I read once (I forget where) that there were plans to attach a Bigelow module to the ISS for evaluation purposes and, possibly, to run a simulated Mars mission with a crew sealed into the module for the duration.  Has anything further been said about this, officially or unofficially?

It's one of the three near-term Flagship Technology Demonstrator missions listed in FY2011:
http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/428356main_Exploration.pdf
Quote
In FY 2011, NASA will initiate several Flagship Technology Demonstrators, each with an expected lifecycle cost in the $400 million to $1 billion range, over a lifetime of five years or less, with the first flying no later than 2014. In pursuit of these goals, international, commercial, and other government agency partners will be actively pursued as integrated team members where appropriate. NASA will not give responsibility for all demonstrations to any single NASA center but rather looks forward to engaging with the expertise of various centers to accomplish these objectives. Specific architecture and approach for missions to demonstrate key capabilities will be developed for initiation in FY2011. Technologies targeted for demonstration will likely include:

...
Lightweight/Inflatable Modules: Inflatable modules can be larger, lighter, and potentially less expensive for future use than the rigid modules currently used by the International Space Station (ISS). Working closely with industry and international partners who have already demonstrated a number of capabilities and interest in this arena, and building on previous ESMD investments, NASA will pursue a demonstration of lightweight/inflatable modules for eventual in-space habitation, transportation, or even surface habitation needs. The demonstration could involve tests of a variety of systems, including closed-loop life support, radiation shielding, thermal control, communications, and interfaces between the module and external systems. Use of the ISS as the testbed for this technology is an option being considered to potentially benefit both programs.
...

Looks promising. This is exactly the sort of thing we should be doing instead of arguing 'til Kingdom Come over what launch vehicle to use.

We need to gain at least as much experience in long-duration microgravity as the Russians have. And we need to figure out how to safely live in microgravity for longer and longer periods, up to what's needed for Conjunction-class missions, perhaps via a centrifugal ring inside the Bigelow capsule module to simulate Mars gravity, at least for sleeping. Also, there surely are some drugs that can be used to mitigate some of the detrimental effects of microgavity (and radiation, though I am sure that such long-term radiation risks are overblown compared to the other spaceflight risks).
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Aeroman on 04/22/2010 09:38 pm
Quick Question, pertaining to centrifuge gravity.

Can a Bigelow module or set of modules be spun for artificial gravity? even .5g?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: neilh on 04/22/2010 09:47 pm
Quick Question, pertaining to centrifuge gravity.

Can a Bigelow module or set of modules be spun for artificial gravity? even .5g?

From 2004:
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/293/1
Quote
TSR: Can you spin these modules up for gravity? Tethered together?

Gold: It’s possible, however, since we’re interested in pursuing the benefits of microgravity we haven’t spent a great deal of time on this sort of thing.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Aeroman on 04/22/2010 09:50 pm
Cool, thanks.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Garrett on 04/23/2010 02:33 pm
Quick Question, pertaining to centrifuge gravity.

Can a Bigelow module or set of modules be spun for artificial gravity? even .5g?

I believe it's better to have them on the end of a long tether, with a counter weight on the other end. If it was just the module spinning, then the human body would be able to feel the difference in g-force between the head and the feet. A very dizzy experience apparently.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robotbeat on 04/23/2010 03:23 pm
Why not have just a ring inside the Bigelow module, only 1 meter or so in width (and as big of diameter as the module), where the crew can sleep and/or exercise? Like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awe6vOXURpY
Except with that ring rotating and providing some gravity by itself (fractional, most likely).
Feasible? With only 6 meters or so diameter, there will be some coriolis, but I bet it would be manageable, especially with fractional gravity. I mean, even microgravity itself can cause nausea, but astonauts adapt.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 04/23/2010 04:22 pm
Why not have just a ring inside the Bigelow module, only 1 meter or so in width (and as big of diameter as the module), where the crew can sleep and/or exercise? Like this:

The Russians did look at this (in the 70s or 80s, IIRC).  They found that the difference in forces when the cosmonaut's height was a significant fraction of the diameter of the centrifuge caused serious disorientation and even some problems with the blood flow through the body.  A 5m-diameter one, like that which would fit inside a Skylab, would have a situation where the head was virtually in free-fall whilst the body was in partial gravity.  This would make the subject very prone to black-outs.  Not a good thing.

FWIW, I've always considered the Discovery-1's 10m-diameter centrifuge in 2001 about the minimum sensible size for even trained and conditioned crews.  It could be made to work with highly-trained astronauts who have been conditioned through years of training to handle it.  However, semi-trained space tourists (such as Bigelow's target market) probably wouldn't be able to handle it.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Orbital Debris on 05/06/2010 11:32 pm
Quick Question, pertaining to centrifuge gravity.

Can a Bigelow module or set of modules be spun for artificial gravity? even .5g?

From 2004:
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/293/1
Quote
TSR: Can you spin these modules up for gravity? Tethered together?

Gold: It’s possible, however, since we’re interested in pursuing the benefits of microgravity we haven’t spent a great deal of time on this sort of thing.
Please keep in mind that Mr. Gold is the corporate counsel.  To a lawyer, this answer could mean that it is possible because there is no law against it.  Not a great deal of time could mean that some engineer thought about it and dismissed it. 

When talking about a tethered system, how would you overcome an imbalance in the masses?   A constantly shifting c.g. is headache enough for the ACS, not to mention trying to maintain spin. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 05/07/2010 01:12 am
With a rotating module the sides become load bearing structures.  In addition to the air pressure the walls become a floor and need to take the weight of people, movement, furniture and stores.  The floor may need fastening to the centre beam.

Imbalance of masses can be handled by pumping liquids between tanks, particularly in the module on the opposite side of the spacestation.  Water could be pumped between tanks at a different radius, there by giving the same mass a different weight.  Electrically powered pumps can do this automatically.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Garrett on 05/07/2010 09:39 am
When talking about a tethered system, how would you overcome an imbalance in the masses?   A constantly shifting c.g. is headache enough for the ACS, not to mention trying to maintain spin. 
Sorry, but I don't know all the space related acronyms. What is ACS?
Also, why would it be difficult to maintain spin?
I also don't understand why the center of gravity would constantly shift. In an orbiting tethered system, won't the c.g. be that point that actually defines the orbit path? Each mass will be "orbiting" around the c.g.

EDIT: just saw that the NSF forum acronym tool had identified the term ACS (with a dotted line underneath). My bad. ACS = attitude control system
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 05/07/2010 10:01 am
When talking about a tethered system, how would you overcome an imbalance in the masses?   A constantly shifting c.g. is headache enough for the ACS, not to mention trying to maintain spin. 

I think it is possible to over-state this problem.

In any reasonable-sized crewed spacecraft undergoing tethered spin (say with an expended upper stage as counter-weight) there is no significant levels of mass change likely to affect the spin stability.  The movement of the crew isn't enough and the slow decrease of propellent weight from RCS activity would be programmed into the manouevre.

In interplanetary flight, I imagine that the plane of the spin would be precisely perpendicular to the direction of flight.  So, in that case, it would simply require balanced RCS burns 'up' or 'down' for orbital manoeuvres.  Once again, this is something that the engineers would have calculated well in advance and would be pre-programmed into the ACS software.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: SpacexULA on 05/14/2010 09:01 pm
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/news/

I have not seen this update mentioned here.  God that's a pretty base.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: neilh on 05/14/2010 09:40 pm
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/news/

I have not seen this update mentioned here.  God that's a pretty base.

Woah, very interesting. I wonder what the modules at the end of the habitats are supposed to be -- lander propulsion?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Sparky on 05/14/2010 09:52 pm
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/news/

I have not seen this update mentioned here.  God that's a pretty base.

Woah, very interesting. I wonder what the modules at the end of the habitats are supposed to be -- lander propulsion?

I believe that they're a combination of service module, descent stage and node.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Sparky on 05/14/2010 10:05 pm
Why not have just a ring inside the Bigelow module, only 1 meter or so in width (and as big of diameter as the module), where the crew can sleep and/or exercise? Like this:

The Russians did look at this (in the 70s or 80s, IIRC).  They found that the difference in forces when the cosmonaut's height was a significant fraction of the diameter of the centrifuge caused serious disorientation and even some problems with the blood flow through the body.  A 5m-diameter one, like that which would fit inside a Skylab, would have a situation where the head was virtually in free-fall whilst the body was in partial gravity.  This would make the subject very prone to black-outs.  Not a good thing.

FWIW, I've always considered the Discovery-1's 10m-diameter centrifuge in 2001 about the minimum sensible size for even trained and conditioned crews.  It could be made to work with highly-trained astronauts who have been conditioned through years of training to handle it.  However, semi-trained space tourists (such as Bigelow's target market) probably wouldn't be able to handle it.

While this might be a bit expensive (mass-wise), what about something like a recumbent bicycle on a track? The head and legs would be nearly equidistant from the center of the module, and the centrifugal load would be spread out a bit more, thus reducing the stress on the module slightly. (Install two side by side, and you've invented the first competitive sport in space: orbital bike racing!)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 05/14/2010 11:04 pm
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/news/

I have not seen this update mentioned here.  God that's a pretty base.

Very nice base.

The landing and takeoff site needs to be in a different crater from the buildings.  The powerful engine exhausts will throw stones and dust for hundreds of miles.  The crater sides will protect the building's windows and doors.  A solid landing pad will also help.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 05/14/2010 11:11 pm
Unless Bigelow is planning on making it nuclear powered, where are the solar arrays and communication dishes?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Alpha Control on 05/14/2010 11:23 pm
Unless Bigelow is planning on making it nuclear powered, where are the solar arrays and communication dishes?

The space.com article mentions a nearby field of solar arrays. I think it's the rectangular cluster towards the top of the photo (nearest to where Mr. Bigelow is standing).
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Patchouli on 05/14/2010 11:41 pm
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/news/

I have not seen this update mentioned here.  God that's a pretty base.

Very nice base.

The landing and takeoff site needs to be in a different crater from the buildings.  The powerful engine exhausts will throw stones and dust for hundreds of miles.  The crater sides will protect the building's windows and doors.  A solid landing pad will also help.

They'll need something like the lunar electric rover for travelling between the landing site and base.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 05/15/2010 01:39 am

They'll need something like the lunar electric rover for travelling between the landing site and base.

The tin can on the bottom right appears to have wheels, so that could be the rover.  The simplest way to get a lunar rover is for Bigelow to buy the Lunar Electric Rover being tested under RATS, although they would need more seats and cargo space.
http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/home/LER.html (http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/home/LER.html)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: bodge on 05/15/2010 02:13 am

They'll need something like the lunar electric rover for travelling between the landing site and base.

The tin can on the bottom right appears to have wheels, so that could be the rover.  The simplest way to get a lunar rover is for Bigelow to buy the Lunar Electric Rover being tested under RATS, although they would need more seats and cargo space.
http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/home/LER.html (http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/home/LER.html)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Downix on 05/15/2010 02:33 am
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/news/

I have not seen this update mentioned here.  God that's a pretty base.
What's with the LEKs?

http://www.astronautix.com/craft/lek.htm
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: SpacexULA on 05/15/2010 02:39 am
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/news/

I have not seen this update mentioned here.  God that's a pretty base.
What's with the LEKs?

http://www.astronautix.com/craft/lek.htm

Wow, they do look like that lander don't they!

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Cinder on 05/15/2010 02:41 am
They don't look exactly like it.  They don't exactly match any of the Soviet landers.
http://www.astronautix.com/hires/zlklek2.jpg
Whereas the LEK's a bulbous top on a squat bottom cylinder, the Bigelow diorama models are almost entirely regular cone and cylinder.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Sparky on 05/15/2010 03:34 am
They don't look exactly like it.  They don't exactly match any of the Soviet landers.
http://www.astronautix.com/hires/zlklek2.jpg
Whereas the LEK's a bulbous top on a squat bottom cylinder, the Bigelow diorama models are almost entirely regular cone and cylinder.

To my untrained eyes, those landers look like Orion CSMs with a decent stage strapped onto the back. Could this explain Bigelow's interest in development of Orion Lite?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 05/15/2010 05:52 am
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/news/ (http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/news/)

I have not seen this update mentioned here.  God that's a pretty base.

Woah, very interesting. I wonder what the modules at the end of the habitats are supposed to be -- lander propulsion?

I believe that they're a combination of service module, descent stage and node.
They call them a "propulsion bus" and come in two forms: on-orbit with a docking node and a lander.  See concept images below.

The top image is much newer, but in Bigelow's patent for the landable base the bottom one is still very close - it now has more and longer 'legs' with a new mechanism, an air lock + platform + steps, a slight attachment mod (prob. for a tunnel to the air lock), a more refined looking skeleton and what looks like more thrusters.

EDIT: enlargements of the Bigelow image with detail of both the base and the propulsion bus. 

Sorry for the quality, but they are jpg's and don't scale very well.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 05/15/2010 06:38 am

Now for the vehicles, or at least the lunar lander.  Looks a whole lot to me like a shortened, modded propulsion bus with an Orion Lite shell as the command module.

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Sparky on 05/15/2010 06:51 am

Now for the vehicles, or at least the lunar lander.  Looks a whole lot to me like a shortened, modded propulsion bus with an Orion Lite shell as the command module.

If that is the case, are the Landers based on Orion Lite simply out of commonality, or will they actually double as return vehicles?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 05/15/2010 06:56 am
That's the mystery, but IMO if they have an airlock designed for the bus it would be easier/cheaper to enlarge it than put an Orion Lite on top.  That argues for the case of a 2-way vehicle, especially since the image appears to show a docking device at the top.  OTOH it could just be a hatch.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Sparky on 05/16/2010 02:23 am
Somewhat better view of the landers. There seem to be windows and a hatch where the Orion Lite SM would be. If I had to guess, these landers are just a fill in for a vehicle that will be developed at a later date. Bigelow is probably going to focus on figuring out how to build stations and bases, and let others (like SpaceX or Armadillo) work on capsules and landers.

(http://i.space.com/images/bigelow-base-3-100414-02.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: kraisee on 05/16/2010 06:19 am
There is no way to land landers that close to the Hab.   The regolith pebbles and detritus which will be kicked up by the landing engines will have some seriously dangerous velocities (2,000 mph+) to them, and with little gravity and no drag forces, those materials travel at those high velocities for a very long distance too.

This is an extremely serious problem which CxP identified with all Altair operations near the Lunar base.

The only effective solution anyone has so-far come up with is to build (or locate natural equivalents nearby) some large barriers between the landing site(s) and any valuable equipment -- and to place the landing site a safe distance away from any habited zones.

The dust created by landings is another significant concern too, but they're going to have to deal with dust anyway, so that isn't really an "additional" concern.

Ross.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 05/16/2010 07:19 am
True enough; but if the model were built to the necessary 'true' scale it wouldn't have fit in the building, would it?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Sparky on 05/16/2010 07:21 am
There is no way to land landers that close to the Hab.   The regolith pebbles and detritus which will be kicked up by the landing engines will have some seriously dangerous velocities (2,000 mph+) to them, and with little gravity and no drag forces, those materials travel at those high velocities for a very long distance too.

This is an extremely serious problem which CxP identified with all Altair operations near the Lunar base.

The only effective solution anyone has so-far come up with is to build (or locate natural equivalents nearby) some large barriers between the landing site(s) and any valuable equipment -- and to place the landing site a safe distance away from any habited zones.

The dust created by landings is another significant concern too, but they're going to have to deal with dust anyway, so that isn't really an "additional" concern.

Ross.

Oh certainly. I'm sure that this was drawn this way more for PR than as a planned layout.

I suppose it might make sense if the landers were mobile though. Land in a ways off, pop on some wheels, and have that rover tow the lander up to the hab. It'll make accessing and/or refueling the landers that much easier. Nevertheless, these landers seem to have neither wheels nor skids that would be effective for mobility.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 05/16/2010 11:00 am
All the serious notational base plans that I've seen call for the landing pads to eventually be microwave sintered to a depth of at least 2 meters. Yes, that will take a while to accomplish but once in place, dust and debris will not be a problem for incoming landers. It will be like coming down on clean concrete.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: kkattula on 05/16/2010 11:38 am
All the serious notational base plans that I've seen call for the landing pads to eventually be microwave sintered to a depth of at least 2 meters. Yes, that will take a while to accomplish but once in place, dust and debris will not be a problem for incoming landers. It will be like coming down on clean concrete.

I think a good base strategy would be to pre-land a large rover or two near the future base site, and have them:

1) Place 4 radio beacons &/or radar transponders a km or two apart to allow follow on precision landings.

2) Identify a landing field, and clear it of inconvenient rocks. Maybe fill in a few holes too.

3) Spend several lunar days microwaving the field, other base sites, and roads between them.

4) Tow new arrivals (all landers should have wheels) to their required position.

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 05/16/2010 02:33 pm
Modifying the model to show the landing site in a separate crater is a few hours work.  This can save hundreds of millions of dollars, because it gets everyone used to the idea that the base and landing site are separate but related.  Get this wrong on the moon and you have to build a new Moon base.  With a little imagination the result complex can be made to look very inviting.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Sparky on 05/16/2010 09:34 pm
Modifying the model to show the landing site in a separate crater is a few hours work.  This can save hundreds of millions of dollars, because it gets everyone used to the idea that the base and landing site are separate but related.  Get this wrong on the moon and you have to build a new Moon base.  With a little imagination the result complex can be made to look very inviting.

I highly doubt that anyone expects Bigelow's lunar base will be built to the exact specs of a piece of concept art that was made 10-20 years earlier. Heck, ISS doesn't look exactly like drawings of it from 5 years ago.

And who knows, maybe Bigelow is trying to boast their confidence in the micrometeoroid protection that their BA330 modules provide. The nodes, rover, and other equipment would need to be shielded, but the inflatable parts would probably survive a few strikes.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: telomerase99 on 05/16/2010 10:19 pm
His plan is to bury the entire habitat with regolith. He has even patented a device that functions like a conveyer belt toward this end.

The regolith would provide shielding from both micrometeorites as well as radiation.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 05/16/2010 11:53 pm
Not to mention if the water blankets they've talked about are installed, which would add significantly to radiation/particle shielding.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mlorrey on 05/17/2010 05:57 am
His plan is to bury the entire habitat with regolith. He has even patented a device that functions like a conveyer belt toward this end.

The regolith would provide shielding from both micrometeorites as well as radiation.

I've been designing something like a snow blower that uses a scaled up cylindrical paint stripper brush instead of solid blades, along with preprep of ground with akin to a roto-tiller to loosen it up.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 05/18/2010 12:22 pm


Woah, very interesting. I wonder what the modules at the end of the habitats are supposed to be -- lander propulsion?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 05/18/2010 12:28 pm
Bigelow has said that he wants to assemble the 3 module base at EML-1 & land it on it's own power. Making those Propulsion/Entryway units refuel able will also allow the base to move from point to point under it's own power as well.
As for the model, an artists concept often takes a few liberties that don't allow for the laws of physics. :D The manufacturer will not always want all of his proprietary info displayed for all to see on what is essentially a marketing tool.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Garrett on 05/19/2010 02:39 pm
from the Space.com article:
Quote
For the moon base, three BA 330s, along with topped off propulsion tanks and power units, could be joined together and then migrated from either L1 or lunar orbit and flown to a pre-selected lunar spot.

That sounds a bit odd to me, so hopefully somebody here has a better insight into how this could work. I mean, I would have thought that trying to land three attached BA-330's would result in a lot of stress where they join.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 05/19/2010 03:35 pm
from the Space.com article:
Quote
For the moon base, three BA 330s, along with topped off propulsion tanks and power units, could be joined together and then migrated from either L1 or lunar orbit and flown to a pre-selected lunar spot.

That sounds a bit odd to me, so hopefully somebody here has a better insight into how this could work. I mean, I would have thought that trying to land three attached BA-330's would result in a lot of stress where they join.

I believe that there is a landing engine on the central hub too.  It would be tricky but, ultimately, all that would be required was very careful co-ordination of the thrust levels from all four engines.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/19/2010 03:44 pm
from the Space.com article:
Quote
For the moon base, three BA 330s, along with topped off propulsion tanks and power units, could be joined together and then migrated from either L1 or lunar orbit and flown to a pre-selected lunar spot.

That sounds a bit odd to me, so hopefully somebody here has a better insight into how this could work. I mean, I would have thought that trying to land three attached BA-330's would result in a lot of stress where they join.

I believe that there is a landing engine on the central hub too.  It would be tricky but, ultimately, all that would be required was very careful co-ordination of the thrust levels from all four engines.
One-sixth gravity also makes it a lot easier.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 05/19/2010 05:21 pm
from the Space.com article:
Quote
For the moon base, three BA 330s, along with topped off propulsion tanks and power units, could be joined together and then migrated from either L1 or lunar orbit and flown to a pre-selected lunar spot.

That sounds a bit odd to me, so hopefully somebody here has a better insight into how this could work. I mean, I would have thought that trying to land three attached BA-330's would result in a lot of stress where they join.
Putting this puppy down complete is going to take a lot of things going right & leaving very little to chance. I suspect that the area chosen for landing will have at the least been thoroughly scouted & possibly even prepared ahead of time.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 05/22/2010 09:36 am
Why not have just a ring inside the Bigelow module, only 1 meter or so in width (and as big of diameter as the module), where the crew can sleep and/or exercise? Like this:

The Russians did look at this (in the 70s or 80s, IIRC).  They found that the difference in forces when the cosmonaut's height was a significant fraction of the diameter of the centrifuge caused serious disorientation and even some problems with the blood flow through the body.  A 5m-diameter one, like that which would fit inside a Skylab, would have a situation where the head was virtually in free-fall whilst the body was in partial gravity.  This would make the subject very prone to black-outs.  Not a good thing.

FWIW, I've always considered the Discovery-1's 10m-diameter centrifuge in 2001 about the minimum sensible size for even trained and conditioned crews.  It could be made to work with highly-trained astronauts who have been conditioned through years of training to handle it.  However, semi-trained space tourists (such as Bigelow's target market) probably wouldn't be able to handle it.

The textbooks often cite 2001 as "bad science" with regard to centrifuges, citing the 1-2 RPM limit that 60s researchers found. However, 2001 is proof in itself that higher RPMs are possible. The actual rotation rate of the centrifuge was at least 6 RPM, with Keir Dullea (Bowman) hanging upside down (and eating) for half of that. 6 RPM is enough for 1/6g, which is what the film used. Walking spinward would generate 1/2 to 1/3 gee. Jogging in the spinward direction would raise it to about 1g. On the moon, the problem would be falling off the floor if walking anti-spinward. I would guess a lunar centrifuge would need to be about 30m in diameter, providing about 0.5 gee to avoid this added wonkyness.

As for sleeping in "hamster wheels" it's quite viable and has been looked at in depth. As long as people's heads are restrained vertically it's fine. Horizontally it's not a problem.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: grakenverb on 06/08/2010 03:55 am
Article in NY Times (w/nice picture):

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/08/science/space/08space.html


Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 06/08/2010 07:05 am
I found the evolution of the propulsion bus+node interesting...

Old

New (cropped, zoomed & gamma corrected)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Garrett on 06/08/2010 07:45 am
Article in NY Times (w/nice picture):

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/08/science/space/08space.html

Great picture. If ever they don't succeed in space, at least they can try winning some model construction contests back home  :P

More seriously, that article had some info that I never heard before. I'll pick out what I thought interesting:
Quote
The two Bigelow stations would then be home to 36 people at a time
Wha? 36!? Did the reporter make a mistake here or is that truly the number they hope to have up there?

Quote
In recent years, he has played down the notion that he is building a space hotel for rich tourists, although he says space tourism could provide a part of his business.
That really surprised me. I didn't know he was banking so much on (international?) government contracts.

Quote
His space stations are not his only interest in space. “I’ve been a researcher and student of U.F.O.’s for many, many years,” Mr. Bigelow said. “Anybody that does research, if people bother to do quality research, come away absolutely convinced. You don’t have to have personal encounters.”
He added: “People have been killed. People have been hurt. It’s more than observational kind of data.”
Bigelow is a UFO fanatic! This makes him, in my eyes, a bit of a liability. Any research I've ever done on UFO's has convinced me they don't exist. But maybe I'm the mad one!

Quote
Other views that run counter to mainstream science include ... a disbelief in the Big Bang theory.
Well, this doesn't sound good, unless the reporter exaggerated Bigelow's disbelief.

Quote
Bigelow: “I have four decades of building all kinds of things. The principles are the same.”
...
 (Another of the company values declares: “Make up your mind quickly. Don’t take forever, people are waiting, the company is waiting, the future is waiting and time costs money.”)
OK, when I saw this I just thought to myself: "Oh sh*t!"


Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: DGH on 06/08/2010 10:37 am
Article in NY Times (w/nice picture):

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/08/science/space/08space.html



If that picture is accurate Boeing is doing Apollo not Orion lite.

It appears to be about 4 meter diameter.
That would be under a 6 mt capsule.
Angles seem a little better adding some volume.

With service module about 10 mt.
A little more with LAS.
Atlas 402/411/412  depending on orbit or Delta 4,2.

7 people would be very tight.
That would be almost as tight as the Apollo rescue set up.


This really reminds me of the original Boeing proposal for the Vision.

This could be launched to EML-2 on a RS-68A Delta IV Heavy with significant margins.

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 06/08/2010 11:59 am
With the success of Falcon-9 f1, has there been any word from Bigelow about scheduling the test flight of Sundancer on the Falcon-9? It's been "on the books" for years, but now there is an operational launcher, I'm wondering if they are making serious preparations.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: DigitalMan on 06/08/2010 03:19 pm
Quote
In recent years, he has played down the notion that he is building a space hotel for rich tourists, although he says space tourism could provide a part of his business.
That really surprised me. I didn't know he was banking so much on (international?) government contracts.

Bigelow has stated since the beginning that he was not marketing to tourists only to government and commercial entities.  If a hotel chain rented a module they would be free to send up tourists. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: bad_astra on 06/08/2010 03:20 pm
He may not be marketing it to them, but he has to consider there is going to be a lucrative side market for things like tourism and perhaps more importantly, filmmakers.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: neilh on 06/08/2010 07:29 pm
With the success of Falcon-9 f1, has there been any word from Bigelow about scheduling the test flight of Sundancer on the Falcon-9? It's been "on the books" for years, but now there is an operational launcher, I'm wondering if they are making serious preparations.

I think he's still waiting to see how the NASA-funded commercial crew debate turns out in congress. He's said in the past that he doesn't want to launch stations before there are more cost-effective ways for commercial passengers to reach them.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mlorrey on 06/11/2010 06:33 am
With the success of Falcon-9 f1, has there been any word from Bigelow about scheduling the test flight of Sundancer on the Falcon-9? It's been "on the books" for years, but now there is an operational launcher, I'm wondering if they are making serious preparations.

I think he's still waiting to see how the NASA-funded commercial crew debate turns out in congress. He's said in the past that he doesn't want to launch stations before there are more cost-effective ways for commercial passengers to reach them.

As I recall, the current manifest has it scheduled to launch in 2014. Provided the Dragon gets man rated by 2013, that would be right on schedule.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: kraisee on 06/11/2010 03:12 pm
With the success of Falcon-9 f1, has there been any word from Bigelow about scheduling the test flight of Sundancer on the Falcon-9? It's been "on the books" for years, but now there is an operational launcher, I'm wondering if they are making serious preparations.

I'd bet he's just biding his time to see how reliable F-9 turns out to be.   Planning for the worst, while hoping for the best, is always a safe way to proceed.

Ross.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: yg1968 on 06/16/2010 06:54 pm
Bigelow Aerospace Joins the Commercial Spaceflight Federation:
http://www.commercialspaceflight.org/?p=1257
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Bill White on 06/16/2010 06:55 pm
Bigelow Aerospace Joins the Commercial Spaceflight Federation:
http://www.commercialspaceflight.org/?p=1257

From the link:

Quote
“Specifically, I’m appalled by the condemnation of commercial crew as being somehow less safe than government programs, and the refrain that commercial companies need to prove they can deliver cargo before they deliver crew.  In regard to the latter, a leading contender for commercial missions, the Atlas V, has had 21 consecutive successful launches.  This rocket is arguably the most reliable domestic launch system in existence today.  It strains the bounds of credulity to claim that any new rocket would be able to trump the safety of a system that has an extensive record of flawless operations.”

“Moreover,” Bigelow added, “we’re extremely pleased to be part of the Boeing team constructing the CST-100 capsule under the auspices of NASA’s own Commercial Crew Development program.  Boeing’s unparalleled heritage and experience, combined with Bigelow Aerospace’s entrepreneurial spirit and desire to keep costs low, represents the best of both established and new space companies.  The product of this relationship, the CST-100 capsule, will represent the safest, most reliable, and most cost-effective spacecraft ever to fly.  Again, I don’t understand the critics who say ‘commercial’ entities can’t safely build a capsule.  Why is it that Boeing, the company that constructed the ISS itself, can’t safely build a capsule that would go to their own space station?  These are the sorts of questions and issues that we will be posing in Washington as a member of the Commercial Spaceflight Federation.”
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robotbeat on 06/16/2010 07:06 pm
Bigelow Aerospace Joins the Commercial Spaceflight Federation:
http://www.commercialspaceflight.org/?p=1257

From the link:

Quote
“Specifically, I’m appalled by the condemnation of commercial crew as being somehow less safe than government programs, and the refrain that commercial companies need to prove they can deliver cargo before they deliver crew.  In regard to the latter, a leading contender for commercial missions, the Atlas V, has had 21 consecutive successful launches.  This rocket is arguably the most reliable domestic launch system in existence today.  It strains the bounds of credulity to claim that any new rocket would be able to trump the safety of a system that has an extensive record of flawless operations.”

“Moreover,” Bigelow added, “we’re extremely pleased to be part of the Boeing team constructing the CST-100 capsule under the auspices of NASA’s own Commercial Crew Development program.  Boeing’s unparalleled heritage and experience, combined with Bigelow Aerospace’s entrepreneurial spirit and desire to keep costs low, represents the best of both established and new space companies.  The product of this relationship, the CST-100 capsule, will represent the safest, most reliable, and most cost-effective spacecraft ever to fly.  Again, I don’t understand the critics who say ‘commercial’ entities can’t safely build a capsule.  Why is it that Boeing, the company that constructed the ISS itself, can’t safely build a capsule that would go to their own space station?  These are the sorts of questions and issues that we will be posing in Washington as a member of the Commercial Spaceflight Federation.”
Alright! That's awesome.

I have also been tired of hearing that SpaceX is the only commercial crew contestant... ...and I almost believed it because of the relative silence on the part of Boeing, etc.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: robertross on 06/18/2010 01:59 am
Alright! That's awesome.

I have also been tired of hearing that SpaceX is the only commercial crew contestant... ...and I almost believed it because of the relative silence on the part of Boeing, etc.

I'm just glad the commercial guys are joining forces to advance their own needs & looking to be prepared for things on NASA's end, which seemed a bit lacking.

Good stuff Bigelow! (looks like they are moving forward in earnest)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 06/19/2010 02:10 am
If that picture is accurate Boeing is doing Apollo not Orion lite.

It appears to be about 4 meter diameter.
That would be under a 6 mt capsule.
Angles seem a little better adding some volume.

Imagery a bit rough,  but if those fellows are just shy of 2m tall it's a tad larger than 4  meters
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: HMXHMX on 06/19/2010 02:55 am
If that picture is accurate Boeing is doing Apollo not Orion lite.

It appears to be about 4 meter diameter.
That would be under a 6 mt capsule.
Angles seem a little better adding some volume.

Imagery a bit rough,  but if those fellows are just shy of 2m tall it's a tad larger than 4  meters

You certainly can fit Bigelow's required crew complement into a compact volume if you are creative.

Below is a design I proposed to them in 2007, but they were not ready to think about building their own spacecraft.  Up to 8 crew could be accommodated on an Atlas 401 or 402.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 06/19/2010 09:21 pm
Very creative!  /impressed/
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: JohnFornaro on 06/21/2010 02:31 pm
With the success of Falcon-9 f1, has there been any word from Bigelow about scheduling the test flight of Sundancer on the Falcon-9? ...

That's a good question.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 06/21/2010 03:29 pm
With the success of Falcon-9 f1, has there been any word from Bigelow about scheduling the test flight of Sundancer on the Falcon-9? ...

That's a good question.
Bigelow is pretty tight lipped about what he's going to do but you can infer some of what he wants to do by what they say in interviews. The SpaceX Manifest has a Bigelow F-9 launch listed for 2014. Bigelow has said in an interview that when a Sundancer goes up, two crew would be sent up to facilitate the outfitting of it.
If you fill in the blanks between things that Bigelow & Elon Musk have said in interviews & public announcements you can infer that the 2014 launch could be a Sundancer & several outfitting launches will take place in the near term after that first one.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: yg1968 on 06/21/2010 04:37 pm
He also said in the NY time article that the 2014 date was dependant on whether commercial crew (i.e. the Boeing capsule) was available at that time. He won't launch the Sundancer until commercial crew is ready.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 06/22/2010 02:49 am
He also said in the NY time article that the 2014 date was dependant on whether commercial crew (i.e. the Boeing capsule) was available at that time. He won't launch the Sundancer until commercial crew is ready.

Well Roscosmos is trying to enter the commercial market by buying more Soyuz Spacecraft:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=22059.0
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Namechange User on 06/22/2010 03:12 am
He also said in the NY time article that the 2014 date was dependant on whether commercial crew (i.e. the Boeing capsule) was available at that time. He won't launch the Sundancer until commercial crew is ready.

Transportation has been the company's critical path nightmare for a number of years now.  That is why he commissioned America's Space Prize to lure investment but no one met it, which was unfortunate and disappointing.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: zaitcev on 06/22/2010 04:05 pm
He also said in the NY time article that the 2014 date was dependant on whether commercial crew (i.e. the Boeing capsule) was available at that time. He won't launch the Sundancer until commercial crew is ready.

Well Roscosmos is trying to enter the commercial market by buying more Soyuz Spacecraft:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=22059.0
If Mr. Bigelow wants to permit the Russian option, he would need to launch Sundancer into a high inclinantion orbit. I heard that doing so forces some downsides, currently reaped at ISS, e.g. next to impossible to find a resonant orbit that's not too high. Although, it may be ok for Sundancer, as a proof of concept.

-- Pete
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: HMXHMX on 06/22/2010 05:11 pm
He also said in the NY time article that the 2014 date was dependant on whether commercial crew (i.e. the Boeing capsule) was available at that time. He won't launch the Sundancer until commercial crew is ready.

Well Roscosmos is trying to enter the commercial market by buying more Soyuz Spacecraft:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=22059.0
If Mr. Bigelow wants to permit the Russian option, he would need to launch Sundancer into a high inclinantion orbit. I heard that doing so forces some downsides, currently reaped at ISS, e.g. next to impossible to find a resonant orbit that's not too high. Although, it may be ok for Sundancer, as a proof of concept.

-- Pete

The "Russian Option" would seem to be unlikely, since the current $50-55m Soyuz seat price is double Bigelow's announced target price of ~$25M for both launch and long term stay at his facility.  Plus he wants to fly 6-8 revenue seats per flight.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: yg1968 on 06/23/2010 02:01 am
Plus most of these seats will be purchased by the CSA or the ESA. Very few seats for flight participants. I doubt the CSA or the ESA is interested in renting the Sundancer.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 07/03/2010 04:33 pm
Lots of updates on the Bigelow website. Pictures, details of the construction schedule, facilities expansion etc.

Some technical details too. It turns out the aft propulsion system (hydrazine monopropellant) of the inflatable modules will be refuelable and reusable. I had expected the GOX/GH2 thrusters using electrolysed water to be used for that instead.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: kraisee on 07/03/2010 04:44 pm
There are more sub-systems involved in the GOX/GH2/Electrolysed system.   Hydrazine is just simpler.

This decision likely improves costs, schedules, safety and even offers some weight saving too.

It may not be as "cool", but there is a valid reason why so many satellites use Hydrazine for their RCS.   Bigelow's team seem to have found that reason and seem to agree with it for their solution.

I'm all for Bigelow deciding that "cool" can take a back seat to good engineering and cost savings.

Ross.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 07/03/2010 04:59 pm
Heh, that's my line! But seriously, I thought the plan for the forward propulsion system was to use GOX/GH2 and electrolysis already.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 07/03/2010 05:03 pm
I doubt the CSA or the ESA is interested in renting the Sundancer.

Back when they were worried the ISS might be scuttled in 2015 they were totally open to cooperation with Bigelow. It is mentioned in the exploration architecture documents on the ESA website.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 07/03/2010 05:23 pm
Here's an interesting job opportunity:

Quote
Bigelow Aerospace is looking for a well disciplined leader to be Chief of our Security Force. Duties entail organizing all aspects of physical security for our 50 acre facility in North Las Vegas including planning, scheduling, hiring, training the rest of the Security Staff, investigation and reporting of incidents whether internal or external, as well as administrative functions.

Successful candidates will have at least 10 years of recent management experience in the military preferably dealing directly with physical security. Management experience in civilian police departments will also be considered. Must be trained in the accurate and safe handling of firearms and have the ability to lawfully possess handguns. Applicant must have sufficient health to pass a physical and an agility test. Also must be able to pass a thorough background check and drug screen.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: simonth on 07/03/2010 09:37 pm
I doubt the CSA or the ESA is interested in renting the Sundancer.

Back when they were worried the ISS might be scuttled in 2015 they were totally open to cooperation with Bigelow. It is mentioned in the exploration architecture documents on the ESA website.

Do you have the direct source for that (can't find it on the ESA website)? I am hard pressed to believe that ESA managers took a deeper look at what Bigelow thinks he will be able to offer. Buying a Bigelow habitat is politically completely impossible for ESA due to politics (European politicians will never ever fund a private American company with money that should go to their own space industry).

We should also consider that ESA did not get into the critical phase of the potential 2015 deadline. It was clear from 2009 onwards that this was an arbitrary deadline set by the US and that it would not materialize.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 07/03/2010 09:49 pm
Do you have the direct source for that (can't find it on the ESA website)?

It's mentioned here:
Architecture Trade Report (http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/exploration/IntlExplorationArchitectures/IntegratedArchReview/ArchitectureTradeReportIssue1080703.pdf)

For related documents see:
http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Space_Exploration_Strategy/ (http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Space_Exploration_Strategy/)

Quote
I am hard pressed to believe that ESA managers took a deeper look at what Bigelow thinks he will be able to offer. Buying a Bigelow habitat is politically completely impossible for ESA due to politics (European politicians will never ever fund a private American company with money that should go to their own space industry).

Absolutely, this could only work within some kind of barter agreement, either with NASA or directly with Bigelow. ESA could provide resupplies while Bigelow took care of crew transport and provided the hab. This would probably only work after the ISS and even then ATV might be too inefficient for resupply. Ariane launches would be fine of course.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: simonth on 07/04/2010 08:03 am
It's mentioned here:
Architecture Trade Report (http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/exploration/IntlExplorationArchitectures/IntegratedArchReview/ArchitectureTradeReportIssue1080703.pdf)

Thank you, interesting document that I haven't come across before. Bigelow is however only mentioned in the table on p. 13 with regard to potential international cooperation and commercial engagement in a future LEO baseline plan.

A barter agreement with Bigelow would not work, by the way. It still means European taxpayer money that European politicians want to be spent in Europe would be used to supply services to a US commercial entity. That just won't work politically. It would be similar to the Boeing vs. Airbus controversy for the tanker deal in the US. Airbus was partnering with a US company and would have built every single plane in the US and still it was politically impossible to give them the contract (the current contract terms are written so that Airbus is shut out of the competition). Bigelow would have to find a European partner, manufacture the module for ESA in Europe and then European politicians would still be skeptical about using a US company for a major contract (not to mention there would have to be a decision on funding a new LEO space station program before then).
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 07/04/2010 04:46 pm
A barter agreement with Bigelow would not work, by the way. It still means European taxpayer money that European politicians want to be spent in Europe would be used to supply services to a US commercial entity.

I don't understand. Why would paying Bigelow in Ariane 5 launches instead of in dollars lead to money being spent outside Europe?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: simonth on 07/04/2010 05:19 pm
A barter agreement with Bigelow would not work, by the way. It still means European taxpayer money that European politicians want to be spent in Europe would be used to supply services to a US commercial entity.

I don't understand. Why would paying Bigelow in Ariane 5 launches instead of in dollars lead to money being spent outside Europe?

Indirectly. European taxpayer money would be spent to render services to US private entity that do not benefit Europeans. Politically infeasible. Contrast that with providing Ariane 5 launch services for a European built and developed space station. ESA's policy on return of contracts for money is complicated enough, politicians don't even want to go into complications such as involving a US corporation into a major program that is not required by the scientific community.

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 07/04/2010 11:28 pm
A barter agreement with Bigelow would not work, by the way. It still means European taxpayer money that European politicians want to be spent in Europe would be used to supply services to a US commercial entity. That just won't work politically. It would be similar to the Boeing vs. Airbus controversy for the tanker deal in the US. Airbus was partnering with a US company and would have built every single plane in the US and still it was politically impossible to give them the contract (the current contract terms are written so that Airbus is shut out of the competition). Bigelow would have to find a European partner, manufacture the module for ESA in Europe and then European politicians would still be skeptical about using a US company for a major contract (not to mention there would have to be a decision on funding a new LEO space station program before then).

The French are more pragmatic than that.  They buy French, if they cannot then from an EU country.  Only if there is nor European source do they buy from the hated Americans.

If Bigelow wants to sell a second one to the EU he will have to find a way of getting a French flag and an EU flag on the spacecraft.  Possibly making say the docking module in France.  An European control room may be needed.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 07/05/2010 01:47 am
The SpaceX Manifest has a Bigelow F-9 launch listed for 2014.

This launch  has slipped by a year of schedule for every year of actual time that passes.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: kkattula on 07/05/2010 09:27 am
The SpaceX Manifest has a Bigelow F-9 launch listed for 2014.

This launch  has slipped by a year of schedule for every year of actual time that passes.

Possibly because without a cost effective way to launch people, they're always 4 years from being able to schedule it?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: simonth on 07/05/2010 10:01 am
A barter agreement with Bigelow would not work, by the way. It still means European taxpayer money that European politicians want to be spent in Europe would be used to supply services to a US commercial entity. That just won't work politically. It would be similar to the Boeing vs. Airbus controversy for the tanker deal in the US. Airbus was partnering with a US company and would have built every single plane in the US and still it was politically impossible to give them the contract (the current contract terms are written so that Airbus is shut out of the competition). Bigelow would have to find a European partner, manufacture the module for ESA in Europe and then European politicians would still be skeptical about using a US company for a major contract (not to mention there would have to be a decision on funding a new LEO space station program before then).

The French are more pragmatic than that.  They buy French, if they cannot then from an EU country.  Only if there is nor European source do they buy from the hated Americans.

If Bigelow wants to sell a second one to the EU he will have to find a way of getting a French flag and an EU flag on the spacecraft.  Possibly making say the docking module in France.  An European control room may be needed.

Incorrect. The French government doesn't care about the flag on the spacecraft, it cares whether it is (all of it) manufactured in France or at least the money provided to ESA for it is put to use in France. Same for the German, Italian, Spanish etc. government.

Bigelow could only "sell" a Bigelow habitat to ESA, if the company were to open a factory in Europe, employ Europeans there and use European parts suppliers. Not to mention that ESA doesn't want another space space station anyway and hopes to operate the ISS way beyond 2020.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: yg1968 on 07/05/2010 01:47 pm
You are probably right. But if Bigelow's station is cheap enough, ESA could spend most of its money on other stuff. If NASA doesn't extend the ISS past 2020, ESA will not fund the ISS on its own. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 07/05/2010 02:35 pm
You are probably right. But if the Bigelow's station is cheap enough, ESA could spend most of its money on other stuff. If NASA doesn't extend the ISS past 2020, ESA will not fund the ISS on its own. 

Your problem is that you are thinking as a scientist or an engineer, not a politician.  To a politician, the question is not "Is it value for money?" The question is "Does it divert public funds to my constituents and corporate (and also union) donors?" This is, regrettably, a universal feature of the political mind.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: simonth on 07/05/2010 06:29 pm
You are probably right. But if the Bigelow's station is cheap enough, ESA could spend most of its money on other stuff. If NASA doesn't extend the ISS past 2020, ESA will not fund the ISS on its own. 

Your problem is that you are thinking as a scientist or an engineer, not a politician.  To a politician, the question is not "Is it value for money?" The question is "Does it divert public funds to my constituents and corporate (and also union) donors?" This is, regrettably, a universal feature of the political mind.

In addition, even at a price of 500m only a BA330 would consume the total HSF budget of ESA for a complete year. That's just too much for ESA's HSF program.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 07/05/2010 07:25 pm
A barter agreement with Bigelow would not work, by the way. It still means European taxpayer money that European politicians want to be spent in Europe would be used to supply services to a US commercial entity. That just won't work politically. It would be similar to the Boeing vs. Airbus controversy for the tanker deal in the US. Airbus was partnering with a US company and would have built every single plane in the US and still it was politically impossible to give them the contract (the current contract terms are written so that Airbus is shut out of the competition). Bigelow would have to find a European partner, manufacture the module for ESA in Europe and then European politicians would still be skeptical about using a US company for a major contract (not to mention there would have to be a decision on funding a new LEO space station program before then).

The French are more pragmatic than that.  They buy French, if they cannot then from an EU country.  Only if there is nor European source do they buy from the hated Americans.

If Bigelow wants to sell a second one to the EU he will have to find a way of getting a French flag and an EU flag on the spacecraft.  Possibly making say the docking module in France.  An European control room may be needed.

Incorrect. The French government doesn't care about the flag on the spacecraft, it cares whether it is (all of it) manufactured in France or at least the money provided to ESA for it is put to use in France. Same for the German, Italian, Spanish etc. government.

Bigelow could only "sell" a Bigelow habitat to ESA, if the company were to open a factory in Europe, employ Europeans there and use European parts suppliers. Not to mention that ESA doesn't want another space space station anyway and hopes to operate the ISS way beyond 2020.

French governments have traditionally been very heavily into glory.  They would see a French space station as glory.  The French Government may buy one from the US, the second they will order a French company to make.

Think back to where Japanese companies used to purchase one item of a product with a copy of the plans.  A few years later 'Made in Japan' versions of the product go on sale.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 07/06/2010 02:12 am
European Governments/ESA almost certainly will not spend any money outside of their own turf, but European Corporations are under no such limitations.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: yg1968 on 07/06/2010 02:58 am
You are probably right. But if the Bigelow's station is cheap enough, ESA could spend most of its money on other stuff. If NASA doesn't extend the ISS past 2020, ESA will not fund the ISS on its own. 

Your problem is that you are thinking as a scientist or an engineer, not a politician.  To a politician, the question is not "Is it value for money?" The question is "Does it divert public funds to my constituents and corporate (and also union) donors?" This is, regrettably, a universal feature of the political mind.

In addition, even at a price of 500m only a BA330 would consume the total HSF budget of ESA for a complete year. That's just too much for ESA's HSF program.

500M?

I thought that the Bigelow station would only be rented by customers and not purchased.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 07/06/2010 04:52 am
Reality check: there are currently companies like BioServe and Nanoracks that sell space in facilities aboard ISS. Why would anyone pay hundreds of millions of dollars many years from now for services on a Bigelow station when they can pay a fraction of that for services in orbit now?

It all sounds like the plan is to wait a few years, and then a miracle happens.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: simonth on 07/06/2010 07:16 am
European Governments/ESA almost certainly will not spend any money outside of their own turf, but European Corporations are under no such limitations.

No they aren't, except if they are under contract with European governments or governmental organizations and are doing space related work with taxpayer money. That's why practically every single component of Ariane 5 or the ATV is European-made.

If you are talking about private companies, as said above, they aren't that interested even flying experiments for free on the ISS.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Cinder on 07/06/2010 09:40 am
Reality check: there are currently companies like BioServe and Nanoracks that sell space in facilities aboard ISS. Why would anyone pay hundreds of millions of dollars many years from now for services on a Bigelow station when they can pay a fraction of that for services in orbit now?

It all sounds like the plan is to wait a few years, and then a miracle happens.

Bigelow couldn't offer a competitive fractional plan as BioServe and NR do now?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: yg1968 on 07/07/2010 05:46 pm
Reality check: there are currently companies like BioServe and Nanoracks that sell space in facilities aboard ISS. Why would anyone pay hundreds of millions of dollars many years from now for services on a Bigelow station when they can pay a fraction of that for services in orbit now?

It all sounds like the plan is to wait a few years, and then a miracle happens.

I was assuming that the ISS would have been deorbited in 2020 (or 2028). It's not clear to me that everybody wants to abandon LEO all together past 2020 (or 2028). For example, Russia doesn't seem very interested in BEO for the time being. I am not sure about Europe and Japan. Canada is waiting for things to play out in the United States.

But if the CSA and ESA are willing to pay Russia for a 5th Soyuz in the next few years, I suspect that they might also be willing to pay Bigelow and SpaceX (or Boeing, etc.) for access to space for their astronauts once the ISS is deorbited.  Paying Bigelow and SpaceX is a lot less risky than investing in hardware that will never fly because NASA's program keep getting cancelled every 4 years or so.  For many countries, their human spaceflight program is their astronauts and they don't mind relying on others for ferrying their astronauts. SpaceX (or Boeing, etc.) and Bigelow can provide them such an access to LEO.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: neilh on 07/08/2010 01:30 am
I noticed these bits of info on the updated website:

http://bigelowaerospace.com/sundancer.php
Quote
Propulsion:

Sundancer utilizes two propulsion systems on the fore and aft of the spacecraft. The aft propulsion system can be refueled and reused.

http://bigelowaerospace.com/ba330.php
Quote
Propulsion:

BA 330 utilizes two propulsion systems on the fore and aft of the spacecraft. The aft propulsion system can be refueled and reused.

This got me searching for info on their refualable propulsion system, and I located the following regarding their collaboration with Orion Propulsion (now part of Dynetics):

http://www.dynetics.com/descriptionpage.php?id=AerospaceSundancer&from=space
Quote
Propulsion Programs
Bigelow Aerospace Sundancer Forward Propulsion System (FPS)

Status: Completed

Dynetics designed, qualified, produced, and delivered the forward propulsion system (FPS) for Sundancer, the world's first commercial space habitat. Our innovative, "green" FPS operates on hydrogen and oxygen generated from water, sweat, and wastewater from Bigelow's proprietary Environmental Control Life Support System (ECLSS). This eliminates toxic propellants such as hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide that are costly to use and harmful to the environment and creates a safer, cleaner work environment for humans on Earth and in space.

The FPS successfully completed a rigorous qualification test program, including thermal cycling, EMI, static loads, vibration and acoustic, and accelerated life testing consisting of 10,000 pulses.

The FPS can be adapted for other uses, including roll control for small launch vehicles, reaction control on larger upper stages, and attitude control on space craft.

For more information about the Sundancer project, visit Bigelow Aerospace's website.

Does this mean that Bigelow could have the first refueling hydrolox system in space?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 07/08/2010 01:33 am
That is was I had been expecting, but it's the aft hydrazine monopropellant system that is going to be refuelable.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: neilh on 07/08/2010 01:38 am
That is was I had been expecting, but it's the aft hydrazine monopropellant system that is going to be refuelable.

Do you have a source for the aft propulsion being hydrazine-based? I can't seem to find one.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 07/08/2010 01:44 am
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/sundancer.php (http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/sundancer.php)
Quote
Sundancer utilizes two propulsion systems on the fore and aft of the spacecraft. The aft propulsion system can be refueled and reused.

Aerojet Supplies Aft Propulsion for Sundancer (http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/news/?Aerojet_Supplies_Aft_Propulsion_for_Sundancer)
Quote
The Aerojet system for Sundancer is of a monopropellant hydrazine design and consists of hardware that has been well-proven on numerous missions. A similar system was used on May 25 to help NASA's Phoenix probe become the first spacecraft in more than 30 years to successfully land on Mars using rockets alone.

We were talking about this last week in this thread.

So far I have seen no explicit statements on the propulsion systems of the propulsion bus, but I think it is intended to be refuelable.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: neilh on 07/08/2010 01:45 am
Thanks! Somehow I managed to miss that conversation earlier. :-P
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: neilh on 07/08/2010 01:47 am
Looks like there was actually a thread about the Aerojet/Bigelow aft propulsion system a couple years ago:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=13251.msg308267
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: neilh on 07/08/2010 01:57 am
So... I'm guessing the fore and aft propulsion systems for the Sundancer and BA330 modules are as follows:

aft propulsion: can be refueled, used for large-scale maneuvers like getting into the proper orbit, and possibly even things like boosting a module to GEO/Lagrangian/Lunar orbit after refueling

fore propulsion: utilizes hydrolox propellant which can be generated at a small scale from water/sweat, presumably only for small-scale maneuvering/control and separating from other modules. It's on the end which connects with other modules, so you don't need to worry about contaminating the interfaces of other modules with hydrazine. Perhaps they're planning on storing the hydrogen in gaseous form?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 07/08/2010 01:59 am
aft propulsion: can be refueled, used for large-scale maneuvers like getting into the proper orbit, and possibly even things like boosting a module to GEO/Lagrangian/Lunar orbit after refueling

Pretty expensive with storable propellant, especially monopropellant, though not necessarily prohibitively so if there is sufficient demand and costs can be amortised over many years.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: neilh on 07/08/2010 02:06 am
I also hadn't noticed it previously, but these photos in the updated news archive are the first photos (I think) showing the windows in the Bigelow modules:

http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/news/?News_Archive

According to the site, each module is supposed to have 4 windows.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 07/19/2010 08:40 pm
A new promotional video for the CST-100 also shows a nice flyaround of the planned Bigelow station:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn_gXEK5XmQ&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn_gXEK5XmQ&feature=player_embedded)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 07/20/2010 09:37 am
A new promotional video for the CST-100 also shows a nice flyaround of the planned Bigelow station:

Interesting that the node has a propulsion module.  Would that be a reboost engine? Or are they planning to ultimately take that thing out to one of the EML points?

A secondary question: Would the propulsion module be refuellable? Maybe from a Dragon or Cygnus tanker? It would seem logical to make it hypergolic or monopropellent for long-term storage convenience.  That would make prop transfer off-the-shelf technology.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 07/20/2010 09:39 am
Yes, the propulsion module uses hydrazine monopropellant and it is refuelable. There was a bit of discussion about this further up the thread.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Apollo-phill on 07/20/2010 10:41 am
Looking at that Boeing CTS-100 'new' video showing docking with Bigelow station.

What effect, if any, are the downward firing thrusters from CTS-100 going have on the Bigelow station materials ?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: kkattula on 07/20/2010 04:27 pm
Looking at that Boeing CTS-100 'new' video showing docking with Bigelow station.

What effect, if any, are the downward firing thrusters from CTS-100 going have on the Bigelow station materials ?

They could just be cold gas thrusters.

With something more powerful for OMS type burns away from the station.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robotbeat on 07/20/2010 04:35 pm
Looking at that Boeing CTS-100 'new' video showing docking with Bigelow station.

What effect, if any, are the downward firing thrusters from CTS-100 going have on the Bigelow station materials ?

They could just be cold gas thrusters.

With something more powerful for OMS type burns away from the station.
Speaking of cold gas thrusters... is helium an especially good gas for a "cold" gas thruster since it has a negative Joule-Thomson Coefficient at room temperature (and all the way down to about 53K)? (i.e. it heats up when it expands, rather than cools which most other gases do, including nitrogen.)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 07/20/2010 08:01 pm
Speaking of cold gas thrusters... is helium an especially good gas for a "cold" gas thruster since it has a negative Joule-Thomson Coefficient at room temperature (and all the way down to about 53K)? (i.e. it heats up when it expands, rather than cools which most other gases do, including nitrogen.)

No. Helium has a limited availability on earth with supplies diminishing. It is too valuable to use for thrusters, especially with so many other thrust gasses available with no supply downsides.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robotbeat on 07/20/2010 08:44 pm
Speaking of cold gas thrusters... is helium an especially good gas for a "cold" gas thruster since it has a negative Joule-Thomson Coefficient at room temperature (and all the way down to about 53K)? (i.e. it heats up when it expands, rather than cools which most other gases do, including nitrogen.)

No. Helium has a limited availability on earth with supplies diminishing. It is too valuable to use for thrusters, especially with so many other thrust gasses available with no supply downsides.
That's not what I was referring to. I was referring to its performance, not cost. I should start another thread on this:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=22314.msg620440
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: thomson on 07/26/2010 01:56 pm
Bigelow webpage got updated recently http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/ (http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/).

Not sure if this is just new design, but I believe I haven't seen some of the info there, e.g. Sundancer vs ISS Destiny comparison (http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/images/sundancer-last-compare.jpg (http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/images/sundancer-last-compare.jpg)).
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: beancounter on 07/27/2010 01:15 am
Yes I noticed the update as well.  I think the layout's much improved and there is additional info' available as well.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 07/27/2010 01:34 am
Bigelow webpage got updated recently http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/ (http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/).

Not sure if this is just new design, but I believe I haven't seen some of the info there, e.g. Sundancer vs ISS Destiny comparison (http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/images/sundancer-last-compare.jpg (http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/images/sundancer-last-compare.jpg)).


That is one thing that has bugged me, how the module uses equipment mounted to the circumference of the module.  It would seem to be much more efficient to do the Skylab style decks/floors, as was proposed later for transhab:

 http://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2004-02/case-study
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: CriX on 07/27/2010 04:06 am
I like the new website design plus the slides they have comparing their inflatable volumes to the ISS existing modules are cool.  They are expanding their facilities and have some mechanical design openings.  :))
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 07/27/2010 09:41 pm
A new promotional video for the CST-100 also shows a nice flyaround of the planned Bigelow station:

Interesting that the node has a propulsion module.  Would that be a reboost engine? Or are they planning to ultimately take that thing out to one of the EML points?

The propulsion bus has always been a feature of the node and has, so far, been defined as an OMS/reboost and, with vertical engines and legs, for landing a lunar base. 

I would think with refueling EML transfer is certainly a possibility given the size of that thing.

Bigelow has stated, and their artwork shows, that their lunar base would be assembled at L1 and their patent shows the power module  being used precisely in those ways so....
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 08/06/2010 04:46 am
Does this mean that Bigelow could have the first refueling hydrolox system in space?

Sounds like maybe ;)

Interesting basic diagram of it appeared on Popular Mechanics site yesterday....

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/news/inflatable-space-station?click=pm_latest

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: e of pi on 08/06/2010 06:06 am
It's interesting noting the decks on that diagram vs. the decks that appear to be in the cutaways on the Bigelow site, since this diagram shows an arrangement seems more like the Skylab style of the original Transhab (which is I think uses the volume better).
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 08/06/2010 03:35 pm
It's interesting noting the decks on that diagram vs. the decks that appear to be in the cutaways on the Bigelow site, since this diagram shows an arrangement seems more like the Skylab style of the original Transhab (which is I think uses the volume better).

There are two obvious internal configurations for a Bigelow-style module.  The first is a vertically-aligned arrangement (like Skylab) with the decks arranged around a central core that will contain the power, data and other utility conduits.  This configuration would be ideal both for a free-floating spacestation and also as a crew module for deep space flights (as the decks would be arranged around the thrusting axis of the MPS).  The second is a horizontal alignment, somewhat like the ISS.  This would be ideal for the lunar surface application.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mr. mark on 10/19/2010 04:58 pm
Looks like they are starting to make some headway as far as Sundancer.
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=31881
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 10/19/2010 07:02 pm
I thought Paragon was doing the ECLSS for Bigelow, not Orbitec....
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 10/19/2010 07:13 pm
Maybe you are thinking of Dreamchaser? Last I heard both Paragon and Oceaneering were candidates for supplying the ECLSS.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 10/19/2010 08:14 pm
One step at a time, and before you know it....
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mr. mark on 10/20/2010 01:46 am
I guess Bigelow has been signing up international clients for their space station. Check out the current article at Space.com     
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: yg1968 on 10/20/2010 02:12 pm
I guess Bigelow has been signing up international clients for their space station. Check out the current article at Space.com     

Yes, this one.
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/private-space-station-first-clients-101019.html
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: corrodedNut on 10/22/2010 12:01 am
Video from the symposium:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqsHK2vxyzo&feature=player_embedded#!

"Bigelow Aerospace Vice President Jay Ingham provides this overview of the company's commercial space station plans using scale models at the International Symposium for Private and Commercial Spaceflight."

Towards the end of the video you can see a small moon, wait, that's no moon...it's...it's a Bigelow BA2100...
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 10/22/2010 02:06 pm
Seems like the best way to make use of all that space. ISS-style decks also help with ground testing and integration (as well as walk-through mockups). The final image of the NY times article shows a lander that appears derived from their propulsion node. Probably explains a few of the changes we've seen in the node design away from an ISS-type node.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 10/22/2010 08:20 pm
So, it looks to me that Alpha is basically two Sundancers, a Nautilus (BA330) and a propulsion node.

That BA2100 is something else though.  Any remaining doubts that Robert Bigelow and Elon Musk are serious about going to Mars has just been knocked into a cocked hat.  Those two may not be as rich as Howard Hughes, but they certainly have his daring!


[edit - corrected typo]
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: SpacexULA on 10/22/2010 08:55 pm
So, it looks to me that Alpha is basically two Sundancers, a Nautilus (BA330) and a propulsion node.

That BA2100 is something else though.  Any remaining doubts that Robert Bigelow and Elon Musk are serious about going to Mars has just been knocked into a cocked hat.  Those two may not be as rich as Howard Hughes, but they certainly have his daring![edit - corrected typo]

The scary thing is they have ad a mock up of Sundancer and BA-330 for years now.  Wonder how long before he has a full scale mock up of the 2100.

Maybe that's why Bigelow is building the new building, so he can have a mock up of the BA2100. <jk>
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: neilh on 10/22/2010 10:33 pm
Video from the symposium:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqsHK2vxyzo&feature=player_embedded#!

"Bigelow Aerospace Vice President Jay Ingham provides this overview of the company's commercial space station plans using scale models at the International Symposium for Private and Commercial Spaceflight."

Towards the end of the video you can see a small moon, wait, that's no moon...it's...it's a Bigelow BA2100...

Anyone else notice the "Resupply Depot Hercules" poster in the back, for a space station with 8300 cubic meters of pressurized volume? It's hard to see, but it looks like it calls for six BA330s and three BA2100s.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 10/23/2010 01:22 am
Anyone else notice the "Resupply Depot Hercules" poster in the back, for a space station with 8300 cubic meters of pressurized volume? It's hard to see, but it looks like it calls for six BA330s and three BA2100s.
That's impossible with currently available lift. 24 Sundancer's & 12 BA-330's gets you the same volume without having to wait for a new heavy lift vehicle.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Hauerg on 10/23/2010 07:51 am
Anyone else notice the "Resupply Depot Hercules" poster in the back, for a space station with 8300 cubic meters of pressurized volume? It's hard to see, but it looks like it calls for six BA330s and three BA2100s.
That's impossible with currently available lift. 24 Sundancer's & 12 BA-330's gets you the same volume without having to wait for a new heavy lift vehicle.

On the other hand this might give SLS something to lift for certification flights.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 10/23/2010 02:57 pm
I found the interior cutaways most interesting.  It looks like most of the equipment will be attached to the central core.  That makes sense as the outer hull is inflated so you wouldn't be able to launch with anything rigid attached to it - that would have to be done on later outfitting flights.

Now... with that rigid core as an axle, would it be possible to put a centrifuge into the super-heavy model-2100?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 10/23/2010 03:29 pm
I found the interior cutaways most interesting.  [snip]   with that rigid core as an axle, would it be possible to put a centrifuge into the super-heavy model-2100?
I'd like to know how big the door is? If it requires an 8 meter fairing does it have a 5 meter entryway?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Sparky on 10/23/2010 04:05 pm
I found the interior cutaways most interesting.  [snip]   with that rigid core as an axle, would it be possible to put a centrifuge into the super-heavy model-2100?
I'd like to know how big the door is? If it requires an 8 meter fairing does it have a 5 meter entryway?
I was just thinking, Orion and CST-100 about 5 meters across. If the door/airlock was made just a bit bigger, say, 5.5 or 6 meters, the entire module could be a hangar for repairing vehicles in a shirtsleeve atmosphere.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 10/23/2010 04:18 pm
Even an unpressurised hangar/shelter would be nice.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Sparky on 10/23/2010 05:28 pm
Even an unpressurised hangar/shelter would be nice.
True, although I thought Bigelow modules only retain their structure because of internal pressure. I suppose something like a BA-2100 could be inflated, outfitted with ribs, and then depressurized. Then again, you could do something similar with a modified SLS/Jupiter tank.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 10/23/2010 05:37 pm
I was thinking of something like a space based version of a bouncy castle. Only the walls would be inflated, not the enclosed space. And the nice thing about inflatables is that you don't need an HLV.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: kkattula on 10/23/2010 05:57 pm
I was thinking of something like a space based version of a bouncy castle. Only the walls would be inflated, not the enclosed space. And the nice things about inflatables is that you don't need an HLV.

Umm, according to the Bigelow guy in the video, the big one weighs about 100 tons...
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 10/23/2010 05:59 pm
Can't blame the guy for wanting to sell inflatables. But the smaller ones would be plenty big.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Sparky on 10/23/2010 06:03 pm
I was thinking of something like a space based version of a bouncy castle. Only the walls would be inflated, not the enclosed space. And the nice things about inflatables is that you don't need an HLV.
Gotcha. I had a similar idea a while back, of taking a dozen BA-330s, assembling them into a cube, and stretching the wall material over the open faces of the cube. Of course, my biggest hangup was how to access the interior of that cube if it were to be pressurized, but I guess it doesn't need to be.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 10/23/2010 06:06 pm
It would be nice if you could build large pressurised volumes that way. I think there were design studies about that in the sixties. If you used some kind of box shaped frame with Bigelow "air mattresses" as walls, maybe you could weld enormous metal modules in the enclosure? I don't know what you'd use it for, but it would sure look impressive!
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 10/23/2010 06:10 pm
Bigelow Orbiting Resort & (micro)Gravity cube

BORG cube? ;)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Sparky on 10/23/2010 06:47 pm
I was thinking of something like a space based version of a bouncy castle. Only the walls would be inflated, not the enclosed space. And the nice things about inflatables is that you don't need an HLV.

Umm, according to the Bigelow guy in the video, the big one weighs about 100 tons...

I figure that the 2100 could be shaved down to fit on a Jupiter-130, or just as is on a Jupiter 246 or larger variant, which can do 100 tons to LEO. (Or some compromise of the two.)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: FinalFrontier on 10/23/2010 06:49 pm
I was thinking of something like a space based version of a bouncy castle. Only the walls would be inflated, not the enclosed space. And the nice things about inflatables is that you don't need an HLV.

Umm, according to the Bigelow guy in the video, the big one weighs about 100 tons...

I figure that the 2100 could be shaved down to fit on a Jupiter-130, or just as is on a Jupiter 246 or larger variant, which can do 100 tons to LEO. (Or some compromise of the two.)

So there is yet another use for the HLV.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 10/23/2010 06:57 pm
Inflatables are precisely one of those things you don't need an HLV for. But again, you can't blame Bigelow for wanting to sell inflatables if the alternative is NASA buying some rigid module from someone else.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 10/23/2010 06:58 pm
Certainly sounds like a use for >100 MT, several of them.  Time to quit screwing around and build a launcher that can scale from 70-80 to 120 MT.  Doesn't matter if you call the payload "inflatable" or not since they're  not balloons. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: e of pi on 10/23/2010 07:05 pm
Quote from: Sparky link=topic=15581.msg651085#msg651085
I figure that the 2100 could be shaved down to fit on a Jupiter-130, or just as is on a Jupiter 246 or larger variant, which can do 100 tons to LEO. (Or some compromise of the two.)

The 2100 would be unlikely to be able to have 30 tons shaved, but the guy in the video also says that they have another internal design for a 70-ton 1150 m^3 module, which is about right compared to the mass/volume ratios of Sundancer, BA 330, and this BA 2100 (around 55 kg/m^3).
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 10/23/2010 08:01 pm
FWIW, I'd want the launchable payload to be one module and one node plus a modified upper stage/assembly tug.  If you launch it all in one go, you have a few less rendezvouses that are potentially time-critical to worry about and you also speed up the assembly process somewhat.  So, really, even the lighter modules would need an EELV-H (using a Centaur as a tug) or SLS-M.

Although I'm on the record as an SLS fan, I would personally feel better if things were scaled for the EELV-Heavies, Proton and Ariane-5.  This is just a gut feeling on my part but I'm not entirely convinced of NASA's likely willingness to co-operate to the point where they'd let Bigelow use their 'flagship' LV unless the module was part of a NASA project.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Sparky on 10/24/2010 03:21 am
Quote from: Sparky link=topic=15581.msg651085#msg651085
I figure that the 2100 could be shaved down to fit on a Jupiter-130, or just as is on a Jupiter 246 or larger variant, which can do 100 tons to LEO. (Or some compromise of the two.)

The 2100 would be unlikely to be able to have 30 tons shaved, but the guy in the video also says that they have another internal design for a 70-ton 1150 m^3 module, which is about right compared to the mass/volume ratios of Sundancer, BA 330, and this BA 2100 (around 55 kg/m^3).

Sorry, what I meant was leaving certain elements (such as one of the propulsion modules at the end) for later launches. But yes, I think that is unlikely that you could find 30 tons to remove, and still call it a BA-2100.

Still, I find it odd that Bigelow Aerospace's vice president either didn't know, or refused to acknowledge that the heavier versions of Direct's Jupiter vehicles (including the recommended J246) are capable of lifting his 100 ton module to LEO. Granted, I'm guessing that "Resupply Depot Hercules" is intended for EML1 or 2, but launching an adequate EDS shouldn't be a show stopper.

Although I'm on the record as an SLS fan, I would personally feel better if things were scaled for the EELV-Heavies, Proton and Ariane-5.  This is just a gut feeling on my part but I'm not entirely convinced of NASA's likely willingness to co-operate to the point where they'd let Bigelow use their 'flagship' LV unless the module was part of a NASA project.

I have a gut feeling that if Bigelow proves it can put such a massive station/depot together in LEO, and makes good on their plans to do so at an EML point, the depot will quickly become part of NASA's lunar architecture.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 10/24/2010 04:23 am

 Granted, I'm guessing that "Resupply Depot Hercules" is intended for EML1 or 2, but launching an adequate EDS shouldn't be a show stopper.

[snip]

I have a gut feeling that if Bigelow proves it can put such a massive station/depot together in LEO, and makes good on their plans to do so at an EML point, the depot will quickly become part of NASA's lunar architecture.
What precisely is needed to protect against both Solar Radiation & Cosmic Rays beyond the Van Allen Belt?
If inside a Bigelow Hab it's a water blanket, then it'll take a couple of HLV outfitting launches to LEO to put that much H2O into orbit to protect a BA-2100 & that many more for Supply Depot Hercules.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Sparky on 10/24/2010 05:17 am
What precisely is needed to protect against both Solar Radiation & Cosmic Rays beyond the Van Allen Belt?
If inside a Bigelow Hab it's a water blanket, then it'll take a couple of HLV outfitting launches to LEO to put that much H2O into orbit to protect a BA-2100 & that many more for Supply Depot Hercules.

Good question. Nevertheless, unless he's significantly understating the projected mass of the module, it should be doable with SLS, even if that means multiple launches.

*Edit: I just rewatched the video, and noted that he specifically said Metric tons. Way to pay attention, Sparky. Oh well. Still, some of Direct's configurations would be up to task for that, just not their preferred ones.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 10/24/2010 05:27 am
The plan seems to be for their modules to  go up unmanned. 

For radiation protection outside of the Van Allens it depends on the type. 

Alpha (helium nuclei) doesn't take much, but accelerated electrons needs more, but not that much outside Jupiter/Saturn space.  Positrons need more and generate more scatter, which also has to be dealt with. 

Hydrogen compounds do well for lower energy gamma, hence the water jackets, but so do dense polymers - and the walls of Sundancer/BA-330 are said to be 16"+ thick and are polymer rich indeed.  My guess is that a BA-2100's walls would be much thicker than 16".

High speed protons (much of cosmic rays) and higher energy gamma are another matter.  They can penetrate deeply and would take dense matter to reduce significantly.  Making trips short help the most.

Best lunar strategy:  lower the exposure (transit) time and stops, and have a regolith coated shelter when you get there.


 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 10/25/2010 07:34 am
Even an unpressurised hangar/shelter would be nice.
True, although I thought Bigelow modules only retain their structure because of internal pressure. I suppose something like a BA-2100 could be inflated, outfitted with ribs, and then depressurized. Then again, you could do something similar with a modified SLS/Jupiter tank.

There appear to be some kind of ribs evident in the cutaway diagrams. Whether they can retain their shape after deflation is a good question (however inflatable ribs could do the same job).
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 10/25/2010 08:00 am
I found the interior cutaways most interesting.  It looks like most of the equipment will be attached to the central core.  That makes sense as the outer hull is inflated so you wouldn't be able to launch with anything rigid attached to it - that would have to be done on later outfitting flights.

Now... with that rigid core as an axle, would it be possible to put a centrifuge into the super-heavy model-2100?

What I've been thinking all along.

A BA 2100 would appear to have (as a rough guess) a diameter of just under 12m. If it had Sundancer's proportions (which would be better for a centrifuge) it would be 14m. That's still well short of the 30m minimum diameter thought necessary for a human long-term centrifuge. However, if a short-arm centrifuge could be proven on a Sundancer or BA 330 module, then it may be possible to put a high RPM centrifuge inside the module.

With 7 metres, Even if we stick to 4 RPM, that gives a non-negligible 1/8 of a gee. Lunar gravity is 4.8 RPM, Mars gravity is pushing the boundaries of acceptable at 7 RPM. 1g is a rather uncomfortable 11.3 RPM, even with adaptation techniques it may not be enough.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Cinder on 10/25/2010 12:31 pm
Maybe Bigelow could come up with a special design dedicated to centrifuge application, that'd be wider than long.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jim on 10/25/2010 01:58 pm
I found the interior cutaways most interesting.  [snip]   with that rigid core as an axle, would it be possible to put a centrifuge into the super-heavy model-2100?
I'd like to know how big the door is? If it requires an 8 meter fairing does it have a 5 meter entryway?
I was just thinking, Orion and CST-100 about 5 meters across. If the door/airlock was made just a bit bigger, say, 5.5 or 6 meters, the entire module could be a hangar for repairing vehicles in a shirtsleeve atmosphere.

No, not feasible.  The center of a Bigelow station is its spine, can't remove it..  Anyways, what is the infatuation with "pressurized" hangars for spacecraft.  There is no need for an atmosphere.  Most spacecraft will have hazardous materials around them, which would be safer to work on in a vacuum or would require a hazmat suit anyways.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 10/25/2010 02:01 pm
Aren't they serviced in clean rooms on Earth?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 10/25/2010 02:17 pm
Best notional "biscuit" design for 2100m^3 is 3m thick and 30m in diameter. Not really usable and difficult to stow it into less than a 15m wide fairing.

Torus design (with short core):
Radius: 12m
Core (ie endplate) radius: 4m
Volume: (appr) 2500m^3
Ignoring of course the volume of the core...


I'm assuming that anything lost in increased surface area is made up for by decreased core length, staying at the 55kg/m^3 standard so a 2100m^3 fits in a 100 tonne payload.

A somewhat better design is this:
(><)
Torus R: 12m
Torus r: 3m (gives an outer rim of 15m
Outer hemitorus centroid location: 12+1.27m
Outer hemitorus centroid circumference: 83.39m
Outer hemitorus volume: 14m^3 * 83m (volume of revolution) = 1162 m^3
Inner subtractive cones volume (x2): 905m^3
Cylinder volume: 2714m^3
Less subtractive cones: 1809
Plus outer hemitorus: 2971m^3

Mass: 163 tonnes (excluding centrifuge arms, rooms etc)
If mass could be reduced to 33kg/m^3, as it might from reducing the core length and comparative size, then it could be launched on an HLV. It might take another HLV to fully kit it out, but once completed, most of the volume will be at a usable gravity. This gives you rooms that are a maximum of 6m across in the centrifuge.

Of course, this depends on how much of the actual mass is the fabric hull, so increased surface area might not be a good thing. It might be more effective to go with the biscuit-shaped inflatable and just waste the inner levels' volume, say just grow plants there.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 10/25/2010 02:22 pm
I found the interior cutaways most interesting.  [snip]   with that rigid core as an axle, would it be possible to put a centrifuge into the super-heavy model-2100?
I'd like to know how big the door is? If it requires an 8 meter fairing does it have a 5 meter entryway?
I was just thinking, Orion and CST-100 about 5 meters across. If the door/airlock was made just a bit bigger, say, 5.5 or 6 meters, the entire module could be a hangar for repairing vehicles in a shirtsleeve atmosphere.

No, not feasible.  The center of a Bigelow station is its spine, can't remove it..  Anyways, what is the infatuation with "pressurized" hangars for spacecraft.  There is no need for an atmosphere.  Most spacecraft will have hazardous materials around them, which would be safer to work on in a vacuum or would require a hazmat suit anyways.

So if there's a troublesome circuit board, EVA, pull the unit out and service it in a shirtsleeves environment. Just like in 2001. Except watch out for the pod.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 10/25/2010 03:44 pm
Posted an update in the Artificial Gravity From Rotation thread.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=22210.msg651608#msg651608
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 10/25/2010 03:52 pm
There appear to be some kind of ribs evident in the cutaway diagrams. Whether they can retain their shape after deflation is a good question (however inflatable ribs could do the same job).

Foam has also been suggested.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 10/25/2010 05:53 pm


There appear to be some kind of ribs evident in the cutaway diagrams. Whether they can retain their shape after deflation is a good question (however inflatable ribs could do the same job).

Foam has also been suggested.

From Bigelow's patent # 6962310.... (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6962310.html)

The advantage of an open-celled foam is that by venting a gas (nitrogen, co2 - whatever) into its containment it expands without producing the fumes generated by chemically activated foams.

Quote
>
In the preferred embodiment, the meteor shield 24 is comprised of layers of impacting material 26 such as Nextel separated by layers of spacing material 28 . The spacing material 28 in the preferred embodiment is an open celled space rated foam that can be compressed prior to launch and then expands upon deployment. The number of layers can be determined by know techniques depending upon variables such as mission parameters and survivability requirements.

A set of longerons 30 and cross members 32 connect the opposing bulkheads 22 . The longerons 30 can be made from a variety of materials depending upon the mission characteristics. In the preferred embodiment, the longerons 30 are substantially comprised of a composite material. In an alternate embodiment, the longerons 30 can be composed of a metallic material. The volume enclosed by the longerons 30 is referred to as the internal volume 31 . An airlock 34 allows for access by individuals such as maintenance personnel. A distal end 36 can house an attitude control device, communications equipment, a power source, and a controller that is powered by the power source and operates the attitude control device. The longerons 30 and bulkheads 22 form the core 33 of the craft 10.
>
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: yg1968 on 10/25/2010 07:34 pm
Video from the symposium:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqsHK2vxyzo&feature=player_embedded#!

"Bigelow Aerospace Vice President Jay Ingham provides this overview of the company's commercial space station plans using scale models at the International Symposium for Private and Commercial Spaceflight."

Towards the end of the video you can see a small moon, wait, that's no moon...it's...it's a Bigelow BA2100...

That video has a discussion of a Bigelow module that could be lifted by a 100mt HLV. Apparently, there is also plans for another one that could be lifted by a 70mt HLV.

If purchased by NASA, could such a module be attached to the ISS? Is it realistic to believe that this could happen?
 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: e of pi on 10/25/2010 08:05 pm
That video has a discussion of a Bigelow module that could be lifted by a 100mt HLV. Apparently, there is also plans for another one that could be lifted by a 70mt HLV.

If purchased by NASA, could such a module be attached to the ISS? Is it realistic to believe that this could happen?
 

The 2100 would be 2.5 times the pressurized volume of ISS, and the 1150 (70 ton) module would be 1.4 times the ISS. I think at that point, it would be more accurate to say you'd be attaching ISS to them rather than the other way around.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 10/29/2010 04:18 pm
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/news/bigelow-aerospace-ba2100-hotel?click=pm_latest

But as large as the BA-330 is, it's dwarfed by the BA-2100, which is six times as large and has multiple decks. The BA-2100's docking ends are about 25 feet in diameter, and one source told PM that the module's dry mass could be as low as 70 tons. In other words, in its uninflated state, it could be placed into orbit by the heavy-lift launcher that the U.S. Senate recently approved for development. The massive structure could then be inflated and subsequently outfitted with materials carried aboard additional launches. With its radiation and micrometeoroid shielding, the BA-2100 could provide a trip for a large crew to the outer solar system.

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: david1971 on 10/29/2010 04:35 pm
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/news/bigelow-aerospace-ba2100-hotel?click=pm_latest

I wonder how close this is to the truth:
"For now, Bigelow's Sundancer and BA-330 are essentially ready to launch at any time, with life-support testing reportedly under way. "
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Comga on 10/29/2010 05:12 pm
The plan seems to be for their modules to  go up unmanned. 

Seems to be?
It's that or go with inflatable astronauts. ;-)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 10/29/2010 05:25 pm
Like this?

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_91wEXEZ2Srk/SWAD6QILldI/AAAAAAAAANw/QNh09WNKenE/s400/airplane+AutoPilot+crop.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: savuporo on 10/29/2010 05:52 pm
There is a joke in here about deflatable egos ..
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: HIP2BSQRE on 10/29/2010 10:49 pm
Reality check: there are currently companies like BioServe and Nanoracks that sell space in facilities aboard ISS. Why would anyone pay hundreds of millions of dollars many years from now for services on a Bigelow station when they can pay a fraction of that for services in orbit now?

It all sounds like the plan is to wait a few years, and then a miracle happens.

I was assuming that the ISS would have been deorbited in 2020 (or 2028). It's not clear to me that everybody wants to abandon LEO all together past 2020 (or 2028). For example, Russia doesn't seem very interested in BEO for the time being. I am not sure about Europe and Japan. Canada is waiting for things to play out in the United States.

But if the CSA and ESA are willing to pay Russia for a 5th Soyuz in the next few years, I suspect that they might also be willing to pay Bigelow and SpaceX (or Boeing, etc.) for access to space for their astronauts once the ISS is deorbited.  Paying Bigelow and SpaceX is a lot less risky than investing in hardware that will never fly because NASA's program keep getting cancelled every 4 years or so.  For many countries, their human spaceflight program is their astronauts and they don't mind relying on others for ferrying their astronauts. SpaceX (or Boeing, etc.) and Bigelow can provide them such an access to LEO.

it appears to me that with his announcement of five soviegn nations booking on client a lot of this conversation may be moot.   People want to thier citizens in space.  Countries have the money the problem has never been about money it has access to space and having somewhere to go.  You do not think Brazil can find $20 million to fly an astronaut??    the problem is that you have to wait years and the only launchers were from the US and Russian govt.  and even if then the only place to fo was the ISS.  All that is about to change. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 10/29/2010 10:52 pm
I'd like to hear more about those sovereign clients. Apparently the Netherlands is one of those, but we're in the middle of deep budget cuts and I haven't heard anything about it in the Dutch press.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 10/29/2010 11:07 pm
I'd like to hear more about those sovereign clients. Apparently the Netherlands is one of those, but we're in the middle of deep budget cuts and I haven't heard anything about it in the Dutch press.

The LEO Bigelow spacestation is not due to open for 5 years so hopefully the deep budget cuts will be over by then.  This also means that the university, research institute or military organisation has 5 years to lobby the Dutch government for the money.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: subzero788 on 10/30/2010 04:09 am
I was pretty suprised to hear that Australia was one of the countries which had signed a "memorandum of understanding" with Bigelow. Our goverment (unfortunately) has never had any interest in human spaceflight. Does anyone have anymore info on this?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Spacenuts on 10/30/2010 06:45 am
The plan seems to be for their modules to  go up unmanned. 

Seems to be?
It's that or go with inflatable astronauts. ;-)

I am sure you ment to say "expandable astronauts" Lol
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Sparky on 10/30/2010 04:03 pm
I found the interior cutaways most interesting.  [snip]   with that rigid core as an axle, would it be possible to put a centrifuge into the super-heavy model-2100?
I'd like to know how big the door is? If it requires an 8 meter fairing does it have a 5 meter entryway?
I was just thinking, Orion and CST-100 about 5 meters across. If the door/airlock was made just a bit bigger, say, 5.5 or 6 meters, the entire module could be a hangar for repairing vehicles in a shirtsleeve atmosphere.

No, not feasible.  The center of a Bigelow station is its spine, can't remove it.. 

But that spine is a hollow tunnel, is it not? A BA-2100 designed as a hangar could have that tunnel as a corridor for moving vehicles (such as landers) along a rail system to be moored in their servicing bays, somewhere inside the module.

Quote
Anyways, what is the infatuation with "pressurized" hangars for spacecraft.  There is no need for an atmosphere.  Most spacecraft will have hazardous materials around them, which would be safer to work on in a vacuum or would require a hazmat suit anyways.
Because one of the biggest drawback's to a reusable lunar lander architecture is refurbishment. I can hardly imagine rebuilding my car's engine if I were wearing pressurized gloves. What's more, one could attempt techniques for spacecraft repair that would be avoided in space, such as welding or cutting, since the debris created could filtered out of the air or caught with magnets, rather than polluting the local space environment.

It would also reduce the amount of long term exposure that the lander's materials get to radiation, as well as stresses from repetitive heating and cooling from direct sunlight.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Patchouli on 10/30/2010 07:35 pm

Because one of the biggest drawback's to a reusable lunar lander architecture is refurbishment. I can hardly imagine rebuilding my car's engine if I were wearing pressurized gloves. What's more, one could attempt techniques for spacecraft repair that would be avoided in space, such as welding or cutting, since the debris created could filtered out of the air or caught with magnets, rather than polluting the local space environment.

It would also reduce the amount of long term exposure that the lander's materials get to radiation, as well as stresses from repetitive heating and cooling from direct sunlight.

Reaction engines is has a orbital hanger concept that would be better suited for servicing spacecraft then using a BA 2100 and risk contaminating the entire space station with hydrazine.
Besides a completed MTV likely would even be too big to fit inside the BA 2100.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lars_J on 10/30/2010 07:50 pm
At this point a pressurized "drydock" for spacecraft makes little (or no) sense. The cost and complexity of such a facility does not make sense at this point. Once we have a massive infrastructure in space - then perhaps it could find some reasonable use.

In addition, their suggested use of maintaining in-space reusable spacecraft (that are designed to only operate in vacuum) seems very odd. There's many things that could break by repeatedly pressurizing and de-pressurizing the entire spacecraft.

More effort should be expended towards easing maintenance of spacecraft in vacuum. That kind of effort will also help crews on BEO missions when crucial repairs will have to be done far from their base of operations.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Patchouli on 10/30/2010 08:05 pm
At this point a pressurized "drydock" for spacecraft makes little (or no) sense. The cost and complexity of such a facility does not make sense at this point. Once we have a massive infrastructure in space - then perhaps it could find some reasonable use.

In addition, their suggested use of maintaining in-space reusable spacecraft (that are designed to only operate in vacuum) seems very odd. There's many things that could break by repeatedly pressurizing and de-pressurizing the entire spacecraft.

More effort should be expended towards easing maintenance of spacecraft in vacuum. That kind of effort will also help crews on BEO missions when crucial repairs will have to be done far from their base of operations.

The assembly dock I posted is not pressurized except for the small habitation modules for work crews.

A vacuum dock could be useful near term by providing a safer EVA environment but a pressurized dry dock seems silly esp when you consider how much air will get wasted between uses and the difficulties of decontaminating it if something leaks inside it.

Plus you don't get fires in a vacuum a lunar module leaking methane inside a pressurized dock would be very bad.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lars_J on 10/30/2010 08:55 pm
Patchouli, I know the image you posted was not a pressurized dock. I was responding to Sparky, although I should have made that clearer.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robotbeat on 10/30/2010 10:28 pm
I really like the idea of an unpressurized "vacuum dock." If you don't have to worry about excessive radiation (including just hard UV radiation degrading the space suit materials), extreme heating or cooling, floating away, and micrometeorites, it would probably be a lot easier to design and use a much more flexible space suit and gloves (maybe one of those spandex suits investigated in the 1970s or a hybrid?).

Because it wouldn't need to be pressurized, you might be able to design one big enough to service a lander but still able to be launched on a Falcon 1e (say, if its structure is inflatable). (Of course, you wouldn't want to launch it separately like that.)

Might be nice not to have to worry so much about latching onto rails and having to be really careful about losing tools. The suits themselves could operate using tethers instead of having to be big, bulky, and self-contained.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Dappa on 10/30/2010 11:40 pm
But that spine is a hollow tunnel, is it not? A BA-2100 designed as a hangar could have that tunnel as a corridor for moving vehicles (such as landers) along a rail system to be moored in their servicing bays, somewhere inside the module.
I wouldn't bet on that. I believe that the spine holds many systems, like power distribution, oxygen and ventilation systems, the head, heating and cooling systems, possibly propellant tanks, and who-knows-what more.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 10/31/2010 01:38 am
Can a pressurized drydock be filled to 1 or 2 hundred millibars of an inert non corrosive gas & still be kept at 25c or so? Are 1 or 2 hundred millibars enough to work without gloves in?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Comga on 10/31/2010 04:48 am
Can a pressurized drydock be filled to 1 or 2 hundred millibars of an inert non corrosive gas & still be kept at 25c or so? Are 1 or 2 hundred millibars enough to work without gloves in?

FWIW I used to regularly carry moderate loads to an environment with ~120 mBar of Oxygen. (14,000 ft) Thousands do every year.  Once went to <100 mBar.  Some people live with ~130 mBar, and some can go to <70 (8000 m) unaided, albeit not many.

Perhaps that's not your question, but one should be able to breath pure O2 in a 100-200 mBar environment and do OK.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Nathan on 10/31/2010 05:20 am
I was pretty suprised to hear that Australia was one of the countries which had signed a "memorandum of understanding" with Bigelow. Our goverment (unfortunately) has never had any interest in human spaceflight. Does anyone have anymore info on this?

Same. The only reference I can find is the Bigelow reference itself. I wonder if it is actually a non-government entity?
Alternatively it could be the AU government but just looking for a spot for a small payload.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 10/31/2010 01:27 pm
Can a pressurized drydock be filled to 1 or 2 hundred millibars of an inert non corrosive gas & still be kept at 25c or so? Are 1 or 2 hundred millibars enough to work without gloves in?

FWIW I used to regularly carry moderate loads to an environment with ~120 mBar of Oxygen. (14,000 ft) Thousands do every year.  Once went to <100 mBar.  Some people live with ~130 mBar, and some can go to <70 (8000 m) unaided, albeit not many.

Perhaps that's not your question, but one should be able to breath pure O2 in a 100-200 mBar environment and do OK.
In one respect it does answer my question, a person can work in 100 millibars without a pressure suit.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 10/31/2010 01:31 pm
An adaptation of the tools used for remote surgery could also help. The astronauts could be located in a shirt sleeve environment while the remotely controlled robot would be inside the unpressurised hangar.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: kkattula on 10/31/2010 03:05 pm
An adaptation of the tools used for remote surgery could also help. The astronauts could be located in a shirt sleeve environment while the remotely controlled robot would be inside the unpressurised hangar.

You guys are aware of the seventh crew member on Discovery (STS-133). Right?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 10/31/2010 03:07 pm
You mean Robonaut?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 10/31/2010 03:09 pm
An adaptation of the tools used for remote surgery could also help. The astronauts could be located in a shirt sleeve environment while the remotely controlled robot would be inside the unpressurised hangar.

This is EXACTLY what we should be aiming for as a long term goal. We've already taken the first step with the robo assistants on ISS. Once we have their dexterity sufficiently honed, we need to combine them with the VR capability that the pilots of our UAV's use overseas. The goal should be for an astronaut-technician to enter the control room in a comfortable shirt-sleeve environment, don the VR headpiece and gloves, and suddenly he or she IS the robot, seeing right thru the robots eyes and working right thru the robots hands. Once we can do that then the hanger will never HAVE to be pressurized, although it could be if that's what the job needed.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: kkattula on 10/31/2010 03:09 pm
I suggest a bigger problem for maintenance & servicing than vacuum is micro-gravity.

What is needed is a rotating, unpressurized space-dock.  :)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 10/31/2010 03:11 pm
I suggest a bigger problem for maintenance & servicing than vacuum is micro-gravity.

What is needed is a rotating, unpressurized space-dock.  :)

That would be nice but is definitely not a near-term possibility. Something to think about much, MUCH later.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 10/31/2010 03:13 pm
This is EXACTLY what we should be aiming for as a long term goal. We've already taken the first step with the robo assistants on ISS. Once we have their dexterity sufficiently honed, we need to combine them with the VR capability that the pilots of our UAV's use overseas. The goal should be for an astronaut-technician to enter the control room in a comfortable shirt-sleeve environment, don the VR headpiece and gloves, and suddenly he or she IS the robot, seeing right thru the robots eyes and working right thru the robots hands. Once we can do that then the hanger will never HAVE to be pressurized, although it could be if that's what the job needed.

Force feedback is another possibility. A friend of mine works for a company that has done experiments with this for medical training. A virtual scalpel is connected to a contraption that simulates the resistance of tissue. And then you could use hologram-like 3d TV too. In that way you wouldn't even need the headpiece, though it's not that much of an obstacle.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 10/31/2010 03:54 pm
But that spine is a hollow tunnel, is it not? A BA-2100 designed as a hangar could have that tunnel as a corridor for moving vehicles (such as landers) along a rail system to be moored in their servicing bays, somewhere inside the module.

I wouldn't bet on that. I believe that the spine holds many systems, like power distribution, oxygen and ventilation systems, the head, heating and cooling systems, possibly propellant tanks, and who-knows-what more.

Yes.  Consider the spine of the Bigelow module to be essentially the utility core.  Just about everything goes through there.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 11/02/2010 08:45 am
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/news/bigelow-aerospace-ba2100-hotel?click=pm_latest

But as large as the BA-330 is, it's dwarfed by the BA-2100, which is six times as large and has multiple decks. The BA-2100's docking ends are about 25 feet in diameter, and one source told PM that the module's dry mass could be as low as 70 tons. In other words, in its uninflated state, it could be placed into orbit by the heavy-lift launcher that the U.S. Senate recently approved for development. The massive structure could then be inflated and subsequently outfitted with materials carried aboard additional launches. With its radiation and micrometeoroid shielding, the BA-2100 could provide a trip for a large crew to the outer solar system.



Stretch the Discovery's (from 2001: A Space Odyssey) spherical hab into a cylinder about 20m long and that's the BA2100 - a little over twice the volume.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Norm Hartnett on 11/05/2010 03:38 pm
http://satellite.tmcnet.com/topics/satellite/articles/114321-bigelow-aerospace-orbitech-testing-commercial-space-station-life.htm

Nice, separate ECLSS units in each module should provide some redundancy. The article does not make it completely clear whether the BA330 ECLSS unit would support six crew but if nothing else they could use two of the Sundancer ECLSS units.

It will also be interesting to compare and contrast the various ISS ECLSS devices to this evolving unit. Continued R&D in this field is going to pay huge dividends is such disparate fields as submarine life support, water recycling in disaster areas, closed environments for biological contamination, and etc.

When we get to the point where our space stations throw nothing away, when everything is reused, we will really be ready to go explore the universe.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Cinder on 11/08/2010 12:23 pm
BA-2100, BA-3240, etc: I'm curious at what (if any) point it becomes better to partition the modules, air-tight.  E.G. for micrometeroid puncture on one end of a jumbo module, the whole module pays for it.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 11/08/2010 01:13 pm
BA-2100, BA-3240, etc: I'm curious at what (if any) point it becomes better to partition the modules, air-tight.  E.G. for micrometeroid puncture on one end of a jumbo module, the whole module pays for it.

It wouldn't be that hard.  Have several air-tight flexible walls arranged longitudinally across the module and use the central core as the connecting corridor, with airlock doors into and out of every section.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robotbeat on 11/08/2010 07:45 pm
BA-2100, BA-3240, etc: I'm curious at what (if any) point it becomes better to partition the modules, air-tight.  E.G. for micrometeroid puncture on one end of a jumbo module, the whole module pays for it.
Because we're talking pressure-vessels, here, a larger module will be stronger and able to shield against micrometeoroids easier. And adding extra shielding is lighter/cheaper.

Partitioning is not incredibly practical. The partitions don't just have to be air-tight, they have to be able to withstand a large pressure differential over a huge surface area.

But having a large module does mean that you're less likely (proportional to your volume) to have a meteor strike. Not only that, but you have a lot more time to repair it or evacuate than you do with a smaller module.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Cinder on 11/08/2010 07:53 pm
So what I should understand is that contrary to my previous post, the larger the module, the less worthwhile it is to partition?  As far as depressurisation goes.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robotbeat on 11/08/2010 08:04 pm
So what I should understand is that contrary to my previous post, the larger the module, the less worthwhile it is to partition?  As far as depressurisation goes.
Well... it kind of depends. Obviously your surface area (and thus probability of getting struck) increases, but your useful volume increases faster, so that you're less likely to get struck if all your volume is in one big module than spread out to many. And the thickness of the module will be greater, which means it will take bigger impact in order to puncture the module. And, because of the larger internal volume, it will take longer for the pressure to drop for a certain sized hole.

I would say that it probably favors the larger module, when all is said and done. (not counting launch, of course)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Cinder on 11/09/2010 02:12 am
Thanks, that is what I meant.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 11/09/2010 02:53 am
The multilayer fabric of the Bigelow modules are more resistant to impact than the ISS module shells. They can absorb and shake off a strike that would easily puncture an ISS module right thru.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: yg1968 on 11/26/2010 01:35 pm
Bigelow interested in getting the Canadian government (the CSA) as a customer:
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/breakingnews/bigelow-aerospace-hopes-canada-will-jump-on-board-commercial-space-station-110206714.html
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: butters on 11/27/2010 01:51 am
Bigelow interested in getting the Canadian government (the CSA) as a customer:
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/breakingnews/bigelow-aerospace-hopes-canada-will-jump-on-board-commercial-space-station-110206714.html

Will it have a Candabigelarm?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Sparky on 11/28/2010 02:49 am
Bigelow interested in getting the Canadian government (the CSA) as a customer:
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/breakingnews/bigelow-aerospace-hopes-canada-will-jump-on-board-commercial-space-station-110206714.html

Will it have a Candabigelarm?

Only if Bigelow's station get to arm wrestle ISS!  ;D
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 11/28/2010 07:56 am
FWIW, a RMS of some kind on the Bigelow station would be useful mainly to help berth cargo vehicles without needing them to have expensive rendezvous and docking hard and software.  You could also get a bit more flexibility in attaching new modules with such a tool.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 11/28/2010 02:48 pm
Remember that silly "Build a Space Station" feature that Bigelow had on their site for a while? In that one of the things you could attach was a Remote Manuvering Arm. I doubt they'd include that in a game on their site if they didn't at least have a contigency plan to include one on their complete stations.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 11/28/2010 03:13 pm
Remember that silly "Build a Space Station" feature that Bigelow had on their site for a while? In that one of the things you could attach was a Remote Maneuvering Arm. I doubt they'd include that in a game on their site if they didn't at least have a contingency plan to include one on their complete stations.

Nice. NASA continues to be in denial. They are no longer the only game in town.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: hop on 11/28/2010 07:49 pm
FWIW, a RMS of some kind on the Bigelow station would be useful mainly to help berth cargo vehicles without needing them to have expensive rendezvous and docking hard and software.
The assumption that RMS berthing is easier or cheaper than docking is dubious. The requirements to station keep in the capture box don't appear much less stringent than those required for docking.

Another factor is that all berthings to date have required a human controlling the arm, while fully autonomous dockings are well proven.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jorge on 11/28/2010 08:32 pm
FWIW, a RMS of some kind on the Bigelow station would be useful mainly to help berth cargo vehicles without needing them to have expensive rendezvous and docking hard and software.
The assumption that RMS berthing is easier or cheaper than docking is dubious. The requirements to station keep in the capture box don't appear much less stringent than those required for docking.

That's correct.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 11/28/2010 08:32 pm

Another factor is that all berthings to date have required a human controlling the arm, while fully autonomous dockings are well proven.
Bigelow has stated in other areas that they'll go heavily automated, ie. docking. Personally I look to see both automated & manual capabilities.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 11/28/2010 08:38 pm
The assumption that RMS berthing is easier or cheaper than docking is dubious. The requirements to station keep in the capture box don't appear much less stringent than those required for docking.

That's correct.

Is it safer?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jorge on 11/28/2010 08:59 pm
The assumption that RMS berthing is easier or cheaper than docking is dubious. The requirements to station keep in the capture box don't appear much less stringent than those required for docking.

That's correct.

Is it safer?

Possibly.  In either berthing or docking, the vehicle should hold, retreat, or abort when commanded by the ground or the crew. In either berthing or docking, an unmanned vehicle should retreat if it loses comm, or suffers a failure that leaves it zero-fault tolerant to loss of navigation or control. If a berthing vehicle somehow lost control and headed toward collision with ISS, the crew would have a few more minutes to prepare compared to a docking vehicle, but that's about it.

None of this applies to Progress, of course, since it is grandfathered from having to meet the modern VV requirements.

The raison d'etre for berthing vehicles is the ability to transfer large-diameter cargo. Any safety advantage they might have is a side-effect, not an intent.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 12/09/2010 11:36 am
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/
Congratulations SpaceX!
On behalf of myself and all of us at Bigelow Aerospace, we would like to congratulate our friends at SpaceX on the unprecedented success of the Falcon 9's second launch and the inaugural flight of the Dragon capsule. Such early success with a rocket as affordable as the Falcon 9 represents an extraordinary accomplishment, and is a testament to the ingenuity and robust capability of the commercial space industry. Moreover, we applaud the demonstration of the Dragon capsule, an achievement that has the potential to substantially reduce America's human spaceflight gap. Again, we wish to extend our heartfelt congratulations to Elon Musk and his entire team. - Robert T. Bigelow
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 12/09/2010 01:56 pm
FWIW, a RMS of some kind on the Bigelow station would be useful mainly to help berth cargo vehicles without needing them to have expensive rendezvous and docking hard and software.
The assumption that RMS berthing is easier or cheaper than docking is dubious. The requirements to station keep in the capture box don't appear much less stringent than those required for docking.

Another factor is that all berthings to date have required a human controlling the arm, while fully autonomous dockings are well proven.

AFAIK, capture box requirements for berthing are more stringent, since docking requirements allow for a little more uncertainty in the inbound vector, ie the docking system can allow for a little bit or less velocity and still function, whereas the RMS can't handle positive or negative velocity and still grapple.

To complicate the question, we have learned that Russian docking systems can be used for berthing, as well, in the case of the MRM-1.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 12/21/2010 12:57 pm
I was wondering. To make big telescopes one of the problems is the fairing diameter of current LV. It forced JWST to use a complicated system to deploy its segmented mirror. Could a Bigelow hangar be built, that has the ECLSS protruding on one side, and a 4m ID port on the side? That way you could get all the mirrors and panels with a bunch of EELV launches, then pressurize, and actually assemble it in space, but on a pressurized vessel. You'd only have to divide in pieces with no more than 4m OD, but you might send longer pieces, like structural beams.
When you're done assembling, you'd have to cut the habitat in half to let the telescope free. But may be you could send a replacement. You wouldn't need a new ECLSS nor the wall of the 4m port. It's just an idea, but if designing and building the mirror deployment system cost close to a billion, then this system might be cheaper, specially if you use it for more than one mission. Regrettably you'd need a LEO tug, and an EDS to actually put the telescope in the desired orbit, so If there is a Bigelow station, and a LEO tug is developed, this might be a nice expansion option.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 12/21/2010 06:49 pm
I was wondering. To make big telescopes one of the problems is the fairing diameter of current LV. It forced JWST to use a complicated system to deploy its segmented mirror. Could a Bigelow hangar be built, that has the ECLSS protruding on one side, and a 4m ID port on the side? That way you could get all the mirrors and panels with a bunch of EELV launches, then pressurize, and actually assemble it in space, but on a pressurized vessel. You'd only have to divide in pieces with no more than 4m OD, but you might send longer pieces, like structural beams.
When you're done assembling, you'd have to cut the habitat in half to let the telescope free. But may be you could send a replacement. You wouldn't need a new ECLSS nor the wall of the 4m port. It's just an idea, but if designing and building the mirror deployment system cost close to a billion, then this system might be cheaper, specially if you use it for more than one mission. Regrettably you'd need a LEO tug, and an EDS to actually put the telescope in the desired orbit, so If there is a Bigelow station, and a LEO tug is developed, this might be a nice expansion option.


Which would necessitate ultraclean and ultraprecise equipment in the Bigelow station. Simply cutting it open would also contaminate the mirror. Anyway, 4m fairings exist, and some as large as 7.2m for EELV have been considered. Rather use a Bigelow as an L2 workshack  if at all in this way (even then I'm not sure it's worth it but is a good publicity stunt).
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 12/21/2010 08:22 pm
Which would necessitate ultraclean and ultraprecise equipment in the Bigelow station. Simply cutting it open would also contaminate the mirror. Anyway, 4m fairings exist, and some as large as 7.2m for EELV have been considered. Rather use a Bigelow as an L2 workshack  if at all in this way (even then I'm not sure it's worth it but is a good publicity stunt).
I'm not proposing to make the mirrors. I don't know how do they handle mirrors for space based telescopes, but for land use they simply cover them with a film. And the JWST does have active optics. So you'd have to design a module with the active frame that can be pieced together. And use the included wavefront sensor to make the adjustments. In any case the thermal environment in the Bigelow would be very different from outer space. And you could make it a clean room. You just need the astronauts to use earthside clean room clothes, and have more filters. But you'd have very little in place of contaminants save the humans. Regarding port size, the I was thinking of a 30m diameter telescope. If you can design a modular frame, you don't have to worry about it's own weight. But you'd need to worry about torsion forces and be very careful where you put the gyros. Have you seen the ATLAST 16m proposal? Something like that but assembled in space.
If it still needs clean room, or is more expensive than making it self opening, then consider this an uninformed rambling.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 12/22/2010 09:06 am
@ baldusi,

The mirrors need to remain in ultra-clean environments during all parts of the assembly of the overall telescope unit.  This is particularly a problem in a pressurised microgravity area, where floating dust and even fairly large globules of oily fluids is a serious and continual contamination issue.  In any case, the degree of precision required to place the mirrors into the vehicle structure would be far beyond the limits of any currently-extant microgravity engineering capability.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Comga on 12/22/2010 05:03 pm
This discussion has little or nothing to do with "What's Happening at Bigelow".

There are also problems with statements by people on both sides of the discussion of building large telescopes in space, specifically one like JWST.   For instance "you'd have very little in place of contaminants save the humans"  Humans are THE largest source of contaminants and existing protocols for contamination control rely on things like disposable gloves and filters and frequent changes of garments, which would be too mass intensive for orbit.  On the other hand, the ability to launch items in the equivalent of shipping containers and mount them on their adjusters once in microgravity could simplify design and construction. Precision work would not be needed, and some early steps in the alignment might be eased with manual input rather than full autonomy necessary for an unattended system at Earth-Sun L2.  It's a long discussion, but not one necessarily involving Bigelow. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: bolun on 01/10/2011 06:35 pm
UK tech to aid private space shot

UK technology could aid a US company's ambitions to send spacecraft beyond low-Earth orbit.

Bigelow Aerospace's plans include telescopes that could be sent into deep space.

The UK's Astronomy Technology Centre (UK ATC) has signed a memorandum of understanding with Bigelow.

UK ATC has developed an infrared sensor for the US-European James Webb Space Telescope.

Bigelow's space telescope concepts include operating beyond the Moon, more than one million kilometres away at one of the Lagrange points - gravitational "sweet spots" where spacecraft can hold station without expending too much fuel.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12150812
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Diagoras on 01/10/2011 07:03 pm
bolun, you beat me to it by about a minute. ;)

Bigelow seems really interested in BEO activities - I guess that would dovetail nicely for them with NASA's HSF plans.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Chris Bergin on 01/14/2011 11:32 pm
NASA Managers Discuss Prospect of Bigelow Inflatable on ISS - by Pete Harding:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2011/01/nasa-managers-discuss-prospect-bigelow-inflatable-iss/

Specific thread:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=23824.0
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 01/15/2011 02:36 am
NASA Managers Discuss Prospect of Bigelow Inflatable on ISS - by Pete Harding:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2011/01/nasa-managers-discuss-prospect-bigelow-inflatable-iss/

Specific thread:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=23824.0

Ok, one thing that is bothering me, weren't all the Node 4 CBM's with exception of the AFT CBM going to be converted to LIDS?  If so, the Bigelow module could not be berthed to the Hub with a PCBM.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/15/2011 04:23 am
NASA Managers Discuss Prospect of Bigelow Inflatable on ISS - by Pete Harding:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2011/01/nasa-managers-discuss-prospect-bigelow-inflatable-iss/

Specific thread:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=23824.0

Ok, one thing that is bothering me, weren't all the Node 4 CBM's with exception of the AFT CBM going to be converted to LIDS?  If so, the Bigelow module could not be berthed to the Hub with a PCBM.
Would that many more LIDS be necessary? If it's a problem, then just keep an extra CBM! Problem solved! Does NASA send me money, now? ;)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lars_J on 01/16/2011 07:37 am
NASA Managers Discuss Prospect of Bigelow Inflatable on ISS - by Pete Harding:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2011/01/nasa-managers-discuss-prospect-bigelow-inflatable-iss/

Specific thread:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=23824.0

Ok, one thing that is bothering me, weren't all the Node 4 CBM's with exception of the AFT CBM going to be converted to LIDS?  If so, the Bigelow module could not be berthed to the Hub with a PCBM.

No, I seem to recall reading a node 4 document that indicated that 2 of the 4 radial ports would remain CBM for future expansion. The remaining two (plus forward) would be LIDS.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 01/26/2011 02:44 pm
This article says the new module could be attached to the station 24 months after they're given the go ahead & they're looking at Node 3 as where it'll be placed.

http://www.space.com/10686-nasa-bigelow-module-international-space-station.html
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 02/03/2011 01:53 am
NASA Deputy Administrator Tours Bigelow Aerospace (http://www.spaceref.com/calendar/calendar.html?pid=6392)
Category: Space Commercialization





Event Format: Media Opportunity



Date: Friday, February 4, 2011



Location: 1899 W. Brooks Ave, North Las Vegas, NV US



WASHINGTON -- NASA Deputy Administrator Lori Garver will travel to Las Vegas and Boulder, Colo., this week to meet with leaders of two commercial space companies, Bigelow Aerospace and Sierra Nevada Corp., and tour their facilities. NASA is partnering with the commercial sector to develop innovative technologies to ensure that the U.S. remains competitive in future space endeavors.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Malderi on 02/03/2011 03:00 am
Another interesting article, this one from a local Florida news source, about a partnership between Bigelow and Space Florida.

http://www.cfnews13.com/article/news/2011/february/203609/Aerospace-partnership-could-bring-new-jobs-to-Space-Coast
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: arnezami on 02/04/2011 02:45 am
Interestingly, a Dragon is now attached to the station aswell...

(http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/DSC_7295-580x417.jpg)

Hires:
http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/DSC_7295.jpg (http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/DSC_7295.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: RocketEconomist327 on 02/04/2011 05:04 am
I like the Dragon hooked up to that station.  Biglow is doing awesome things for spaceflight.

VR
RE327
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 02/04/2011 05:57 am
What I'd like them to further explore -
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lars_J on 02/04/2011 06:36 am
It's neat to see both Dragon and CST-100 (although partially obscured) in the same image.

But that makes me curious - Does anyone know have a semi-accurate visual size comparison of Dragon and CST-100, and perhaps Orion?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: JNobles on 02/04/2011 11:42 am
I have an ignorant question about Bigelow modules.

Is it a situation where they have no equipment currently to sell?  And that's what the two year lead time is for, so someone can place an order for them to build and then deliver?

So they have nothing on the showroom floor for someone to come in and buy and take away?  Or is the two year wait just so they can outfit the bare bones model per the customer's wishes.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 02/04/2011 12:02 pm
I have an ignorant question about Bigelow modules.

Is it a situation where they have no equipment currently to sell?  And that's what the two year lead time is for, so someone can place an order for them to build and then deliver?

So they have nothing on the showroom floor for someone to come in and buy and take away?  Or is the two year wait just so they can outfit the bare bones model per the customer's wishes.
You can try asking them your question, but they're rather secretive about their capabilities.
Bigelow Aerospace (http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 02/04/2011 12:43 pm
It's neat to see both Dragon and CST-100 (although partially obscured) in the same image.

But that makes me curious - Does anyone know have a semi-accurate visual size comparison of Dragon and CST-100, and perhaps Orion?

CST-100's capsule is essentially the same size as Orion's.  Dragon's is narrower but longer.

What interests me about this picture is that it confirms something that I've suspected but not actually known for certain.  All Bigelow modules will have docking/berthing interfaces at both ends compatable with spacecraft docking interfaces (likely LIDS or something similar).  The stations won't be restricted to docking on specialised node ports.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Nate_Trost on 02/04/2011 02:44 pm
I have an ignorant question about Bigelow modules.

Is it a situation where they have no equipment currently to sell?  And that's what the two year lead time is for, so someone can place an order for them to build and then deliver?

So they have nothing on the showroom floor for someone to come in and buy and take away?  Or is the two year wait just so they can outfit the bare bones model per the customer's wishes.

I don't believe they are selling hardware either, they are selling access/residency.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: JNobles on 02/04/2011 04:06 pm
Quote
I don't believe they are selling hardware either, they are selling access/residency.

Okay, thanks.  I will say that I think that these inflatables have a lot of potential but I wish that more than one vendor was offering them.  Competition is a good thing.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 02/04/2011 05:40 pm
Bigelow licensed the basic TransHab patents from NASA in 1998 then made numerous improvements, generating a slew of their own patents along the way - everything from windows, wiring and plumbing chases to radiation shelters and sleeping berths, and then some. Even a means to land a pre-assembled base on the Moon. As such another party trying to do their own expandable hab would have a bit of a patent minefield to navigate. Not impossible, but still.

What also helps Bigelow is that according to today's Aviation Week article (http://web02.aviationweek.com/aw/mstory.do?id=news/asd/2011/02/04/02.xml&channel=space&headline=Bigelow%20Floats%20Plan%20For%20Florida%20Space%20Coast) -

“Our aerospace company is the only aerospace company in the United States that is ITAR-exempt. That was not easy. We achieved that a while back,”
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: HMXHMX on 02/04/2011 07:25 pm
Bigelow licensed the basic TransHab patents from NASA in 1998 then made numerous improvements, generating a slew of their own patents along the way - everything from windows, wiring and plumbing chases to radiation shelters and sleeping berths, and then some. Even a means to land a pre-assembled base on the Moon. As such another party trying to do their own expandable hab would have a bit of a patent minefield to navigate. Not impossible, but still.

What also helps Bigelow is that according to today's Aviation Week article (http://web02.aviationweek.com/aw/mstory.do?id=news/asd/2011/02/04/02.xml&channel=space&headline=Bigelow%20Floats%20Plan%20For%20Florida%20Space%20Coast) -

“Our aerospace company is the only aerospace company in the United States that is ITAR-exempt. That was not easy. We achieved that a while back,”

Unless I misunderstand, the "ITAR exemption"  refers only to Bigelow Aerospace selling visits to their orbiting facilities.  It doesn't refer to selling the hardware or transferring manufacturing data out of the U.S.

The analogy with Virgin Galactic, for example, would be that a non-U.S. person can buy a ticket and ride, but they can't buy the vehicle.

I don't know but that there would be further complications with ITAR even with this "exemption."  For example, does it apply to the spacecraft BA customers fly in on their way to the BA facility?  Or will Boeing and ULA and SpaceX all have to get similar "exemptions."  If I were to bet today, I'd bet that they all would have to seek separate approval before letting non-U.S. persons fly.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 02/04/2011 07:36 pm
Okay, thanks.  I will say that I think that these inflatables have a lot of potential but I wish that more than one vendor was offering them.  Competition is a good thing.

Bigelow has said he sees no competitors on the horizon, but that probably applies to companies offering the lease of complete and fully functional orbital modules. ILC Dover would probably be happy to sell NASA modules or to be a contractor on a JSC-led development program.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Space Junkie on 02/05/2011 01:24 am
This article from yesterday has a fairly long video.
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/13967660/i-team-bigelow-aerospace-begins-big-expansion (http://www.8newsnow.com/story/13967660/i-team-bigelow-aerospace-begins-big-expansion)

From the press conference today. Nasa rep Garver says a deal could be reached in 3 months.
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/13974465/nasa-rep-visits-bigelow-aerospace (http://www.8newsnow.com/story/13974465/nasa-rep-visits-bigelow-aerospace)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 02/05/2011 02:26 am
Wow! That's a great video. To my knowledge it's the only one that shows the inside of the module mockups.

The way Bigelow puts it, it sounds like they'll be producing BA 2100 modules right off the bat in the new factory. He said they have three production lines, and later in the video models of Sundancer, BA 330, and BA 2100 were displayed next to each other.

8 News Now said they'll talk about Bigelow's prices on their evening news tonight, and then more about the ISS deal soon.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: tigerade on 02/05/2011 02:53 am
Wow! That's a great video. To my knowledge it's the only one that shows the inside of the module mockups.

The way Bigelow puts it, it sounds like they'll be producing BA 2100 modules right off the bat in the new factory. He said they have three production lines, and later in the video models of Sundancer, BA 330, and BA 2100 were displayed next to each other.

8 News Now said they'll talk about Bigelow's prices on their evening news tonight, and then more about the ISS deal soon.

I imagine two of the production lines are the Sundancer and the BA330.    Not sure what the third one is, but I doubt it's the 2100.  The 2100 has a huge problem, even if they build it, they don't have a rocket to get it into space!  I don't see a point in them putting resources towards it at this point.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: e of pi on 02/05/2011 04:36 am
Wow! That's a great video. To my knowledge it's the only one that shows the inside of the module mockups.

The way Bigelow puts it, it sounds like they'll be producing BA 2100 modules right off the bat in the new factory. He said they have three production lines, and later in the video models of Sundancer, BA 330, and BA 2100 were displayed next to each other.

8 News Now said they'll talk about Bigelow's prices on their evening news tonight, and then more about the ISS deal soon.

I imagine two of the production lines are the Sundancer and the BA330.    Not sure what the third one is, but I doubt it's the 2100.  The 2100 has a huge problem, even if they build it, they don't have a rocket to get it into space!  I don't see a point in them putting resources towards it at this point.

Perhaps the third is their node/propulsion buses? As their models show, you can do a lot with just those three elements, and all fit on current rockets.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: neilh on 02/05/2011 05:31 am
A photo album from a visit today (Feb 4, 2011) by Lori Garver to Bigelow Aerospace:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/sets/72157625851963211/

Nice view of the inside of a full-scale mockup:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/5417051168/in/set-72157625851963211/
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: tigerade on 02/05/2011 05:50 am
A photo album from a visit today (Feb 4, 2011) by Lori Garver to Bigelow Aerospace:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/sets/72157625851963211/

Nice view of the inside of a full-scale mockup:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/5417051168/in/set-72157625851963211/

Wow, very nice pictures!  Are those actual Sundancers/BA330's? 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Space Junkie on 02/05/2011 05:59 am
I imagine two of the production lines are the Sundancer and the BA330.    Not sure what the third one is, but I doubt it's the 2100...I don't see a point in them putting resources towards it at this point.

I suspect Bob Bigelow's statement about 3 production lines was more "forward-looking" than anything immediate. Something like newlyweds buying a house with five bedrooms.

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Downix on 02/05/2011 06:00 am
A photo album from a visit today (Feb 4, 2011) by Lori Garver to Bigelow Aerospace:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/sets/72157625851963211/

Nice view of the inside of a full-scale mockup:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/5417051168/in/set-72157625851963211/

Wow, very nice pictures!  Are those actual Sundancers/BA330's? 
Mockups,  I believe.  A handy reference, however.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 02/05/2011 06:46 am
Full scale mock-ups is what it says. 

If you watch the news report (http://www.8newsnow.com/story/13967660/i-team-bigelow-aerospace-begins-big-expansion), at the end the talking head mentions a big announcement from NASA regarding Bigelow.  Perhaps the ISS hab....

I recommend full screen viewing.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: RocketEconomist327 on 02/05/2011 07:00 am
Part Two: http://www.8newsnow.com/story/13974654/i-team-bigelow-aerospace-may-get-module-on-space-station (http://www.8newsnow.com/story/13974654/i-team-bigelow-aerospace-may-get-module-on-space-station)

Good watch and read... this is so motivating :)

VR
RE327
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 02/05/2011 11:19 am
I've been seeing a model of an "aluminum can" module. It's behind Garver's head here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/5417047410/sizes/o/in/set-72157625851963211/

Is that an ISS module for comparison? I can't believe it's something Bigelow will produce.

EDIT: In the video, I can see some price lists. Here's what I can make out:
-Leasing a Sundancer for 4 years costs $7X million
-Leasing a BA 330 for 4 years costs $8X or $9X million
-It looks like Total Transportation Cost is about $345 million for four years for the (presumably 6) inhabitants of a BA 330

They also show a hotfire test of a proprietary thruster. The reporter got to press the red button!
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 02/05/2011 12:38 pm
Interestingly, a Dragon is now attached to the station aswell...

(http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/DSC_7295-580x417.jpg)

Hires:
http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/DSC_7295.jpg (http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/DSC_7295.jpg)

Bigelow's inflatables use some solid plates in their construction. Interesting. I realised such a thing was possible when I was reading the document on NASA's transhab. The way the material is folded, you could quite easily include a solid plate as one of your folds; I was thinking of fitting a large sunlight window in a super-Bigelow sized module on a space colony.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: robertross on 02/05/2011 02:31 pm
This article from yesterday has a fairly long video.
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/13967660/i-team-bigelow-aerospace-begins-big-expansion (http://www.8newsnow.com/story/13967660/i-team-bigelow-aerospace-begins-big-expansion)

From the press conference today. Nasa rep Garver says a deal could be reached in 3 months.
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/13974465/nasa-rep-visits-bigelow-aerospace (http://www.8newsnow.com/story/13974465/nasa-rep-visits-bigelow-aerospace)


Cool. I loved the Canadian comment about funding; It's very true.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: rklaehn on 02/05/2011 02:46 pm
I've been seeing a model of an "aluminum can" module. It's behind Garver's head here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/5417047410/sizes/o/in/set-72157625851963211/

Is that an ISS module for comparison? I can't believe it's something Bigelow will produce.

I think it's a part of the NTO/MMH attitude and orbit control system that sits on the rigid core of a module. The crew access tunnel goes through the 8-sided opening in the middle.

You mean this one http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/5417047410/lightbox/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/5417047410/lightbox/)? That's a standard ISS module for size comparison.

Quote
They also show a hotfire test of a proprietary thruster. The reporter got to press the red button!

That could be a gaseous H2/O2 thruster they are going to use as the second attitude control system. The one that was developed by orion propulsion.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 02/05/2011 02:49 pm
I think it's a part of the NTO/MMH attitude and orbit control system that sits on the rigid core of a module.

They have said they intend to use hydrazine monopropellant.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: rklaehn on 02/05/2011 02:58 pm
I think it's a part of the NTO/MMH attitude and orbit control system that sits on the rigid core of a module.

They have said they intend to use hydrazine monopropellant.

Then maybe the two different colored tanks are for something different. Gaseous H2/O2 for the other attitude control system?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: HMXHMX on 02/05/2011 04:12 pm
I've been seeing a model of an "aluminum can" module. It's behind Garver's head here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/5417047410/sizes/o/in/set-72157625851963211/

Is that an ISS module for comparison? I can't believe it's something Bigelow will produce.

I think it's a part of the NTO/MMH attitude and orbit control system that sits on the rigid core of a module. The crew access tunnel goes through the 8-sided opening in the middle.

You mean this one http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/5417047410/lightbox/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/5417047410/lightbox/)? That's a standard ISS module for size comparison.

Quote
They also show a hotfire test of a proprietary thruster. The reporter got to press the red button!

That could be a gaseous H2/O2 thruster they are going to use as the second attitude control system. The one that was developed by orion propulsion.

I have not seen the video, but if it was fired by the reporter, it is the Orion (now Dynetics) thruster.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 02/05/2011 05:58 pm
One thing that those scale models have impressed on me is how big the inflated modules are.  The diameter of the Sundancer and Nautilus look like they're in the 10m/33ft range, based on the size of the little EVA guy.  Suddenly, the fact that the internal equipment of the modules will be laid out horizontally is no longer so ridiculous-sounding, even taking into consideration the large central structural spine.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lars_J on 02/05/2011 08:24 pm
I still prefer the 'vertical' layout that Transhab used. It seems more space efficient.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 02/05/2011 08:55 pm
I still prefer the 'vertical' layout that Transhab used. It seems more space efficient.

Agreed
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: jabe on 02/05/2011 09:27 pm
I still prefer the 'vertical' layout that Transhab used. It seems more space efficient.
I'm not sure which is better.... but I'm curious to see what layout will eventually be the best.  The vertical layout looks more "normal" to us but lots of wasted space in corners between walls and floors/ceilings. 
With not many floors that won't be an issue..Evolution of living space use in Zero-g will be interesting to follow now that the shuttle won't be used to ship the living spaces..somewhat limiting by the payload bay size... and that inflatables may be the way to go...
I wonder if space sickness will be an issue with the new design..since change of orientation seems to bring on the "sickness" and the up down in this design isn't as clear..

jb
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 02/05/2011 09:29 pm
I still prefer the 'vertical' layout that Transhab used. It seems more space efficient.

Agreed

They could transform the interior volume into different rooms with fabric barriers. That would let them experiment to see what arrangements are best for different activities. For example, astronauts could deploy the walls during the sleep period and then roll them up at its conclusion.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 02/05/2011 10:17 pm
Also consider the impracticality of a vertical orientation on what is basically a display model; the horizontal layout doesn't require ladders/stairs/platforms to see most of it. Then again, horizontal gives you longer contiguous stowage along the core structure.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: majormajor42 on 02/06/2011 12:18 am
Well, considering how much time they seem to be spending talking about the possibility of Bigelow Moon (premature? I think so) bases, perhaps it is easy for them to just focus on one type of orientation, considering that Moon modules would most likely be horizontal. 

So, with the idea of a Bigelow module on ISS getting a lot of attention, is there a consensus here on whether an additional node would be required?  Is it possible that that node could also be supplied by Bigelow?  For all the attention that their inflatable modules, such as Sundancer are getting, I'd like to see more on those Bigelow node modules that are supposed to eventually hold their stations together.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: tigerade on 02/06/2011 01:19 am
Well, considering how much time they seem to be spending talking about the possibility of Bigelow Moon (premature? I think so)

Yeah, probably.  I think that's something we'll be talking about in 10 years, but not now.  Although the moon models did look very similar to the orbital modules, so maybe they will be structurally the same for the most part.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 02/06/2011 03:31 am
After reviewing all the graphics I have (LOTS) the main visual differences are the propulsion bus (downward facing main thrusters & landing gear) and the hub (air locks & steps)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 02/06/2011 11:27 am
The models show the moon base modules draped with long tubes that look like oil spill booms. For radiation, maybe?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 02/06/2011 11:53 am
Perhaps the third is their node/propulsion buses? As their models show, you can do a lot with just those three elements, and all fit on current rockets.

You're probably right. The center assembly line, with its higher roof, is probably for the BA 330, with Sundancer and node on either side.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robotbeat on 02/06/2011 06:46 pm
The models show the moon base modules draped with long tubes that look like oil spill booms. For radiation, maybe?
Basically long sand (or regolith) bags. You could do a lot more radiation shielding with a certain mass of sand bags (filled with lunar regolith) than with a certain mass of radiation shielding brought to the surface from Earth.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lars_J on 02/07/2011 04:28 am
I have one question about the Bigelow station(s) that has been bugging me - What method of orbital resupply will be used? By what craft?

Will they license or use Progress?

Or will they use replaceable propulsion modules, where new modules are launched whenever the current one on the station has used up its fuel? And in that case, will the Sundancer/BA-330(?) node modules support fuel transfer to leave them some maneuvering ability?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Comga on 02/07/2011 04:41 am
The models show the moon base modules draped with long tubes that look like oil spill booms. For radiation, maybe?
Basically long sand (or regolith) bags. You could do a lot more radiation shielding with a certain mass of sand bags (filled with lunar regolith) than with a certain mass of radiation shielding brought to the surface from Earth.

Didn't Bigelow himself, a few years ago, say they were getting a patent on some alternative way of massing the regolith for radiation shielding?  (Can anyone find a relevant patent application?)  He was talking about how difficult it would be to maintain moon analogs of standard earth moving equipment.  He had some way that involved less handling than straight digging.  It looks like it results with the regolith stuffed into lunar sausage casings.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Patchouli on 02/07/2011 04:59 am
The models show the moon base modules draped with long tubes that look like oil spill booms. For radiation, maybe?
Basically long sand (or regolith) bags. You could do a lot more radiation shielding with a certain mass of sand bags (filled with lunar regolith) than with a certain mass of radiation shielding brought to the surface from Earth.

Didn't Bigelow himself, a few years ago, say they were getting a patent on some alternative way of massing the regolith for radiation shielding?  (Can anyone find a relevant patent application?)  He was talking about how difficult it would be to maintain moon analogs of standard earth moving equipment.  He had some way that involved less handling than straight digging.  It looks like it results with the regolith stuffed into lunar sausage casings.

The Lunokhod rovers would be a good example of what to expect of mechanical failures on earth moving type equipment on the moon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunokhod_1
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 02/07/2011 06:31 am
I have one question about the Bigelow station(s) that has been bugging me - What method of orbital resupply will be used? By what craft?

Don't think they've chosen one yet but  Bigelow has said he wants at least two for redundancy. CST-100 has to have an early head start for crew given his association with Boeing.  Dragon has to be up there too just because it's already flying.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lars_J on 02/07/2011 06:38 am
I'm wondering about cargo/fuel resupply, not crew transport. Basically, what will be the Progress equivalent?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: pathfinder_01 on 02/07/2011 06:54 am
I'm wondering about cargo/fuel resupply, not crew transport. Basically, what will be the Progress equivalent?

He has not decided.  Cargo would be easy as Dragon and Cygnus, could provide cargo. And there are older pictures showing soyuz docked to the station(I wouldn't be surprised if he included the correct port for this).

Propellant is another story as niether Dragon nor Cynus provide propellant. I suspect that if the russians are willing to launch a soyuz for cash a progress might also be possible. HTV and ATV would be off the cards due to their non commercail nature. 

His lifesupprot system generates some propellant so who knows how it will be handled.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 02/07/2011 07:34 am
Propellant is another story as niether Dragon nor Cynus provide propellant. I suspect that if the russians are willing to launch a soyuz for cash a progress might also be possible. HTV and ATV would be off the cards due to their non commercail nature. 

I wonder if that is necessarily as big an issue as it could be.  I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be unthinkably difficult to replace the current dry pressurised cargo container with a hydrazine tank (IIRC Alpha will use hydrazine monopropellent).  Dock it to the propulsion spine instead of the node using a pressurised adapter and then pump away.  The complex bit of Cygnus is its service/propulsion module, which would remain unchanged.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: rklaehn on 02/07/2011 08:18 am
I'm wondering about cargo/fuel resupply, not crew transport. Basically, what will be the Progress equivalent?

He has not decided.  Cargo would be easy as Dragon and Cygnus, could provide cargo. And there are older pictures showing soyuz docked to the station(I wouldn't be surprised if he included the correct port for this).

Propellant is another story as niether Dragon nor Cynus provide propellant. I suspect that if the russians are willing to launch a soyuz for cash a progress might also be possible. HTV and ATV would be off the cards due to their non commercail nature. 

His lifesupprot system generates some propellant so who knows how it will be handled.

They will probably try to use the H2/O2 generated by the life support system for stationkeeping, debris avoidance maneuvers and altitude maintenance. The hydrazine monopropellant will be used only for the initial large maneuvers and docking, and retained for emergencies.

This is similar to what is done by the ISS: the russian service module zvezda has the ability to do a reboost using its thrusters and internal fuel, but that job is taken over by visiting vehicles whenever possible.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: jryodabobs on 02/07/2011 10:28 pm
Bigelow is in the process of winning-over Florida and their space port at Cape Canaveral as one of the few businesses actually attempting to make a non-NASA-sponsored-and-funded commercial space venture work economically. They deserve support and attention from the interested space community (that's the readers of this blog), not just sound bites from news people. See Aviation Week:
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aviationweek.com%2Faw%2Fgeneric%2Fstory_channel.jsp%3Fchannel%3Dspace%26id%3Dnews%252Fasd%252F2011%252F02%252F04%252F02.xml&h=1a111
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 02/10/2011 08:25 am
Also consider the impracticality of a vertical orientation on what is basically a display model; the horizontal layout doesn't require ladders/stairs/platforms to see most of it. Then again, horizontal gives you longer contiguous stowage along the core structure.

A horizontal layout also looks better psychologically. It minimises the number of up/down movements you need to make and also allows you continuous access to the central systems / support column (perhaps the single largest reason). The BA330 is not the Transhab either; the endcaps are hemispherical not toroidal, so you wind up with a lot of wasted space there too.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 02/10/2011 08:27 am
The models show the moon base modules draped with long tubes that look like oil spill booms. For radiation, maybe?
Basically long sand (or regolith) bags. You could do a lot more radiation shielding with a certain mass of sand bags (filled with lunar regolith) than with a certain mass of radiation shielding brought to the surface from Earth.

Didn't Bigelow himself, a few years ago, say they were getting a patent on some alternative way of massing the regolith for radiation shielding?  (Can anyone find a relevant patent application?)  He was talking about how difficult it would be to maintain moon analogs of standard earth moving equipment.  He had some way that involved less handling than straight digging.  It looks like it results with the regolith stuffed into lunar sausage casings.

He'll have a hard time patenting that. I saw NASA guys experimenting with that several years ago, and they got the idea from desert-dwelling tribesmen...
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 02/10/2011 08:39 am
One thing that those scale models have impressed on me is how big the inflated modules are.  The diameter of the Sundancer and Nautilus look like they're in the 10m/33ft range, based on the size of the little EVA guy.  Suddenly, the fact that the internal equipment of the modules will be laid out horizontally is no longer so ridiculous-sounding, even taking into consideration the large central structural spine.

The BA-330 and Sundancer are about 6.5m in diameter.

The External Tank's interior is a good indicator of how big 8.3m is. The area of an average small house can be accommodated in each level on a vertical layout. The BA-2100 seems to be at least 12m in diameter, given that the endcaps are stated to be 20ft in diameter.

This is more like the Bigelow size - the S-IV at 5.5m (wider than Skylab!!!)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 02/10/2011 08:47 am
This is more like the Bigelow size - the S-IV at 5.5m (wider than Skylab!!!)

How could the S-IV be wider than the S-IVB-based SkyLab, which, IIRC, had a diameter about 7 meters?

BTW, wouldn't the S-IV make a wonderful 2nd stage for EELV for LEO launches?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robotbeat on 02/10/2011 01:36 pm
This is more like the Bigelow size - the S-IV at 5.5m (wider than Skylab!!!)

How could the S-IV be wider than the S-IVB-based SkyLab, which, IIRC, had a diameter about 7 meters?

BTW, wouldn't the S-IV make a wonderful 2nd stage for EELV for LEO launches?

Skylab was made out of a modified S-IVB upper stage. The S-IVB had a diameter of 6.6m.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: kevin-rf on 02/10/2011 02:35 pm
This is more like the Bigelow size - the S-IV at 5.5m (wider than Skylab!!!)

Sigh, in my opinion the RL-10 powered S-IV was the most awesome upper stage ever. Way better than the J-2 powered version. Sigh...
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: bad_astra on 02/10/2011 04:30 pm
The models show the moon base modules draped with long tubes that look like oil spill booms. For radiation, maybe?
Basically long sand (or regolith) bags. You could do a lot more radiation shielding with a certain mass of sand bags (filled with lunar regolith) than with a certain mass of radiation shielding brought to the surface from Earth.

Didn't Bigelow himself, a few years ago, say they were getting a patent on some alternative way of massing the regolith for radiation shielding?  (Can anyone find a relevant patent application?)  He was talking about how difficult it would be to maintain moon analogs of standard earth moving equipment.  He had some way that involved less handling than straight digging.  It looks like it results with the regolith stuffed into lunar sausage casings.

He'll have a hard time patenting that. I saw NASA guys experimenting with that several years ago, and they got the idea from desert-dwelling tribesmen...

There was talk at somepoint of looking into superadobe (a low-tech building method developed at Cal Earth that basically creates soil igloos by continuously filling a very long bag full of dirt which is compressed and held in place between layers of barbed wire). The regolith superadobe domes or barrel vaults would have used velcro instead of barbed wire, I think. Cal-Earth might have information on it still, but I don't see anything official from anywhere else. If the domes can support the weight, they can be bermed with even more regolith atop them.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: simonbp on 02/10/2011 04:44 pm
Sigh, in my opinion the RL-10 powered S-IV was the most awesome upper stage ever. Way better than the J-2 powered version. Sigh...

?

Saturn I Block II with S-I and S-IV: 9,000 kg to LEO
Saturn IB with S-I and S-IVB: 20,800 kg to LEO

With the same first stage, S-IVB more than doubled the performance of the Saturn I. The only aspect that S-IV has better was Isp (433s v. 421s), but it's minuscule thrust meant that it really couldn't take advantage of that. There's a reason the S-IV never launched more than placeholder payloads...
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: STS-200 on 02/11/2011 11:15 am
Sigh, in my opinion the RL-10 powered S-IV was the most awesome upper stage ever. Way better than the J-2 powered version. Sigh...

?
Saturn I Block II with S-I and S-IV: 9,000 kg to LEO
Saturn IB with S-I and S-IVB: 20,800 kg to LEO

With the same first stage, S-IVB more than doubled the performance of the Saturn I. The only aspect that S-IV has better was Isp (433s v. 421s), but it's minuscule thrust meant that it really couldn't take advantage of that. There's a reason the S-IV never launched more than placeholder payloads...

Just a technical point:
Saturn IBs could only put about 16.5t into LEO (a rating of 37,000lbs comes to mind) - and for Apollo missions that had to include the SLA, which massed around 1750kg. They also had a lightened and stretched first stage with uprated engines (the S-Ib).

Meanwhile, back at Bigelow....
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 02/12/2011 12:45 am
Sigh, in my opinion the RL-10 powered S-IV was the most awesome upper stage ever. Way better than the J-2 powered version. Sigh...

*TOTALLY* agree!!!

That's why I argued *so* hard for the 6xRL-10 JUS vs the 1xJ-2X JUS.
It is far and away a much better solution - by far!
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 02/14/2011 09:47 am
This is more like the Bigelow size - the S-IV at 5.5m (wider than Skylab!!!)

How could the S-IV be wider than the S-IVB-based SkyLab, which, IIRC, had a diameter about 7 meters?

BTW, wouldn't the S-IV make a wonderful 2nd stage for EELV for LEO launches?

Skylab was made out of a modified S-IVB upper stage. The S-IVB had a diameter of 6.6m.

I meant that the BA-330 (6.7m) is wider than Skylab.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 02/18/2011 10:47 pm
First construction update in almost a month.
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/prosper.php (http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/prosper.php)

Floors almost finished; lots of doors going up.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: M_Puckett on 02/18/2011 10:58 pm
Sigh, in my opinion the RL-10 powered S-IV was the most awesome upper stage ever. Way better than the J-2 powered version. Sigh...

?

Saturn I Block II with S-I and S-IV: 9,000 kg to LEO
Saturn IB with S-I and S-IVB: 20,800 kg to LEO

With the same first stage, S-IVB more than doubled the performance of the Saturn I. The only aspect that S-IV has better was Isp (433s v. 421s), but it's minuscule thrust meant that it really couldn't take advantage of that. There's a reason the S-IV never launched more than placeholder payloads...

I wonder how that stage would have perfommed on a Saturn V where the staging altitude was much higher and the gravity losses much, much lower.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ugordan on 02/19/2011 10:53 pm
That question crossed my mind, too.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robert Thompson on 02/21/2011 08:29 pm
Does the Bigelow plant in Las Vegas offer tours open to the public? From what I can find, their hospitality at this time follows the Magrathean model.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Orbital Debris on 02/22/2011 11:11 pm
Sorry, no tours available to the public at this time.  Mr. Bigelow has, on occasion, allowed some tours to school children, and the press, as well as other VIP's. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: simonbp on 02/23/2011 05:30 pm
Does the Bigelow plant in Las Vegas offer tours open to the public? From what I can find, their hospitality at this time follows the Magrathean model.

Please be assured the nuclear missiles currently flying your direction are a courtesy only extended to our most persistent customers. We thank you for your interest, and we hope for your custom in any future lives.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 02/26/2011 03:41 am
It's not really a Bielow Update but, it's a fun exercize in math.  ;D
Engineer in Progress (http://engineerinprogress.blogspot.com/2010/11/title-placeholder.html)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: e of pi on 02/26/2011 04:02 am
It's not really a Bielow Update but, it's a fun exercize in math.  ;D
Engineer in Progress (http://engineerinprogress.blogspot.com/2010/11/title-placeholder.html)
Hey, thanks! That's my blog! How'd you stumble over it?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robert Thompson on 02/26/2011 09:29 am
Does the Bigelow plant in Las Vegas offer tours open to the public? From what I can find, their hospitality at this time follows the Magrathean model.

Please be assured the nuclear missiles currently flying your direction are a courtesy only extended to our most persistent customers. We thank you for your interest, and we hope for your custom in any future lives.

With spring break coming up, a trip to Bigelow Las Vegas would have been the very best pilgrimage available. I'm not yet sold that the New Mexico Spaceport America is quite worth a pilgrimage, but that's what I'm left with.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 02/26/2011 11:15 am
Does the Bigelow plant in Las Vegas offer tours open to the public? From what I can find, their hospitality at this time follows the Magrathean model.

Please be assured the nuclear missiles currently flying your direction are a courtesy only extended to our most persistent customers. We thank you for your interest, and we hope for your custom in any future lives.

With spring break coming up, a trip to Bigelow Las Vegas would have been the very best pilgrimage available. I'm not yet sold that the New Mexico Spaceport America is quite worth a pilgrimage, but that's what I'm left with.

The Spaceport is certainly not worth a pilgrimage before it's operational!
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 02/26/2011 11:26 am
Does the Bigelow plant in Las Vegas offer tours open to the public? From what I can find, their hospitality at this time follows the Magrathean model.

Please be assured the nuclear missiles currently flying your direction are a courtesy only extended to our most persistent customers. We thank you for your interest, and we hope for your custom in any future lives.

With spring break coming up, a trip to Bigelow Las Vegas would have been the very best pilgrimage available. I'm not yet sold that the New Mexico Spaceport America is quite worth a pilgrimage, but that's what I'm left with.

The Spaceport is certainly not worth a pilgrimage before it's operational!

Having decades of design and construction experience in both the commercial and defense worlds, I respectfully disagree. Obviously a construction site that is only getting started would have little to show, but one that is well underway can be a real treat! There is SO much to see that the general public will *never* have any idea of once the site is open for business; especially when we are talking about sites that do not offer "ordinary" buildings. To see how they are put together before all the fixturing is removed and everything is covered with  the facades is something to behold!
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 02/26/2011 02:41 pm
It's not really a Bielow Update but, it's a fun exercize in math.  ;D
Engineer in Progress (http://engineerinprogress.blogspot.com/2010/11/title-placeholder.html)
Hey, thanks! That's my blog! How'd you stumble over it?
I did a Google Image search for "Bigelow Aerospace" & it was one of the results that popped up.
Great Blog BTW. :)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: e of pi on 02/26/2011 05:30 pm
It's not really a Bielow Update but, it's a fun exercize in math.  ;D
Engineer in Progress (http://engineerinprogress.blogspot.com/2010/11/title-placeholder.html)
Hey, thanks! That's my blog! How'd you stumble over it?
I did a Google Image search for "Bigelow Aerospace" & it was one of the results that popped up.
Great Blog BTW. :)

Thank you for saying so. It's nice to know that at least one of the hits I get from Google Images actually stuck around to read the page. It's also somwhat terrifying to see the 140-hit bump in just the last 12 hours from your link.  :o

If you find that interesting, might I suggest messing around with my Transhab Module Calculator (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/transhabcalc.php)? It's designed to allow the user to do first-level approximations of modules with various parameters (mass, length, diameter, ect...) and see the possibilities inflatable modules offer. I was working on it when I stumbled over the facts that lead to that post. Actually, I was looking at that module in-depth trying to get data to check my approximation formulas at the large end of the scale.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robert Thompson on 02/27/2011 02:14 am
A month or so ago I got to your site from Google Images (and read it). You present some decent speculation that catches the entrepreneur in a frozen frame of 'making do'. I think capturing that moment is inspiring. There's a local woman that sells sandwich-like crepes out of a tiny trailer, and she doesn't hesitate to tell you she's 'out of this, will you take that?' on your sandwich. The show must go on.

This guy has some monster 3648 x 2736 shots of the Bigelow models at ISPCS 2010.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jedibfa/sets/72157625314521760/
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: SpacexULA on 02/27/2011 02:56 am
A month or so ago I got to your site from Google Images (and read it). You present some decent speculation that catches the entrepreneur in a frozen frame of 'making do'. I think capturing that moment is inspiring. There's a local woman that sells sandwich-like crepes out of a tiny trailer, and she doesn't hesitate to tell you she's 'out of this, will you take that?' on your sandwich. The show must go on.

This guy has some monster 3648 x 2736 shots of the Bigelow models at ISPCS 2010.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jedibfa/sets/72157625314521760/

Wow, that link is amazing.  It really gives you an idea of scale when you look at the laptop inside the ba-330 :)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Malderi on 02/27/2011 03:49 am
For a better sense of scale, here's Lori Garver on a recent visit to Bigelow facilities...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/5417051168/
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: e of pi on 02/27/2011 04:07 am
For a better sense of scale, here's Lori Garver on a recent visit to Bigelow facilities...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/5417051168/

Do you know what module that's a mockup of? I think it's the BA 330, but it and Sundancer have the same diameter, so without knowing how much module is behind the camera, I didn't feel able to put my finger on it. Very spacious either way, I gotta say.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 02/27/2011 04:37 am
I got more from the sign behind Space Complex Bravo -

Four BA-330's for a total of 1,320 m3 - not counting nodes.

2 "large size" propulsion modules with nodes, hinting at a "small size" too? Different sizes for Sundancer and BA-330?

That would explain the apparent prop bus size disparity between the two Sundancer SC Alpha model shown and previous Alpha depictions which had two BA-330's.

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Malderi on 02/27/2011 05:11 am
For a better sense of scale, here's Lori Garver on a recent visit to Bigelow facilities...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/5417051168/

Do you know what module that's a mockup of? I think it's the BA 330, but it and Sundancer have the same diameter, so without knowing how much module is behind the camera, I didn't feel able to put my finger on it. Very spacious either way, I gotta say.

It's from the mockups presented in this picture:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/5417056094/

So it's probably the BA-330 pictured, because you can see a significant portion of a cylindrical section.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: MikeAtkinson on 02/27/2011 06:06 am
The sign on http://www.flickr.com/photos/jedibfa/5146872991/sizes/o/in/set-72157625314521760/ says

"Space Complex Alpha
-690 cubic meters of pressurized volume
-one BA330 module
-Two Sundancer module
-Standard size propulsion bus
-Crew Capsule
-Crew Capacity- 12"

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 02/27/2011 06:58 am
So one sign says a "Standard" size bus and another says "Large" size bus. Makes sense when you think about it, with the next question being "how large?". Big enough and refuelable so as to serve as a tug? That would make sense if they plan on an EML-1 facility.

Wonder exactly what is in that Aerojet contract?  Hmmmm....
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robert Thompson on 02/27/2011 09:18 am
Wonder exactly what is in that Aerojet contract?
Maybe... Aug '08, http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=8af3ac333a0b62952fb145867eb5c483&topic=13251.0
Aug '09, http://www.space-travel.com/reports/Andrews_Space_Delivers_Spaceflight_Hardware_For_Aerojet_Bigelow_999.html
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 02/27/2011 12:50 pm
For a better sense of scale, here's Lori Garver on a recent visit to Bigelow facilities...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/5417051168/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/5417051168/)

I know we are ALL impressed with what we see in these mock-ups, but that specific picture is a very good example of the difficulties of a horizontal layout vs. a vertical layout as in Skylab and TransHab. Remember that these will be used in zero-g so any crew member that is not firmly attached to a surface and cannot *reach* some other surface is effectively stuck in midair where they are. A good zero-g design would have no more space between floor and ceiling than the length of a person's height plus arm outstretched above them, perhaps 7 foot (2.1m) or for a tall person, 7 foot 6 inches (2.3m). That was one of the lesson of Skylab. TransHab provided this as well as the early Bigelow designs by having a vertical core with "levels" perpendicular to it.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robert Thompson on 02/27/2011 01:27 pm
For a better sense of scale, here's Lori Garver on a recent visit to Bigelow facilities...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/5417051168/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto/5417051168/)
horizontal layout vs. a vertical layout as in Skylab and TransHab. Remember that these will be used in zero-g so any crew member that is not firmly attached to a surface and cannot *reach* some other surface is effectively stuck in midair

The intended use of the space will require this kind of consideration. The way the physical model depicts the floor parallel to the solid core, you get maximum single solid surface, or, 'most earth-like visual depth of field' for the available volume and depending on what application you need. I can't immediately figure out any, but there's no physical constraint to it as in the design of a submarine or space shuttle. The TransHab format with floor perpendicular to core will have other applications. Off the top of my head, I bet that parallel / large floor surface would serve social / physical activities, and the TransHab format would suit controlled and isolated microgravity science. If there's going to be true persistence, then perhaps two modules as a mullet: business up front, party in the back.

Something that occurred to me looking at the model is that if you want to create the illusion of maximum floor space, even in weightless un-oriented environment, then you could have two identical large floors whose normal vectors both point away from the solid core. It's fun to devise. You might have a workspace whose office window is full earth, all the time, the equivalent of a coveted corner office.

As a selling point for hotel services, I imagine a large earth viewing room with a remotely adjustable high-end 12 inch Celestron telescope with CCD digital camera trained onto the surface of the earth. The moving image is directly piped to a 40" LCD high def monitor. Paying guests have control over the telescope movement, angle and focus, and can swap eyepieces as desired. Maybe remote sensing basics and Cold War Spying 101 for novices. Play name that country / geographical feature. Jeopardy based on what country you fly over - time is limited.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 02/27/2011 03:07 pm
There's not much new here & I'm sick of hearing the derogatory tag "Space Hotel" but it's an excellent article.
Human-spaceflight's future may lie in orbiting hotel, other ventures (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/os-nasa-commercial-future-20110227,0,905028.story)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 02/27/2011 03:49 pm
There's not much new here & I'm sick of hearing the derogatory tag "Space Hotel" but it's an excellent article.

If other tags are wanted then one of the habitats will have to be laid out as something else.  With one of the triple module models make say the Sundancer the control room and one of the habitats the living quarters.  The third module could be laid out with a telescope pointing at the stars at one end and a micro-gravity laboratory doing biochemical and physics experiments at the other.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: beancounter on 02/28/2011 01:03 am
I wonder if mass is an issue for these modules or they have plenty of mass margin for their proposed launch vehicles?   In doing so, a number of space-oriented companies have looked at and are incorporating carbon structures into their products so I wonder if Bigelow is also doing this.  There would be a number of opportunities I would think and such mass reductions would surely add up.
Any thoughts or better still, hard knowledge on this?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robert Thompson on 02/28/2011 04:36 am
I'm sick of hearing the derogatory tag "Space Hotel"

I understand that pov. Consider these human behaviors:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspicuous_consumption (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspicuous_consumption),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspicuous_leisure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspicuous_leisure),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeping_up_with_the_Joneses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeping_up_with_the_Joneses),
"costly signalling" under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_tourism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_tourism).

What I've gathered from observing affluence is that "Wealth seeks to demonstrate ease of wealth attainment" or "Wealth seeks to imply steady state". Which when applied to the Tito's and Shuttleworth's, they are attempting to remove the tenor of wealth from the public designation 'space tourist', hoping rather to simulate some kind of non-fiscal meritorious rationale for their presence using something like "spaceflight participant". The important thing is that the negative charge carried by the labels "space tourism" and "space hotel" is an indicator of the strength of the force of envy from any lower socioeconomic class.

A self-effacing scientific thinker may very well hope that the field had been leveled. But wealth and its concomitant bowing, genuflection, livery, deference, etc, has to pave the way before accessibility trickles down to the plebes. (Here I think of Plebeian as any median income from a developed country, e.g. a 50K/yr American). I'll hold my breath for the day when a 50K/yr American gets a 3-day stay on a Bigelow module. Maybe it will be the result of a $1000/ticket raffle - I won't complain. How and when access becomes truly quotidian, droll, 5AM-Traffic Jam, and referred to as "space commuting" is for me still SyFy. Anyway, tell me if I'm wrong.

these will be used in zero-g so any crew member that is not firmly attached to a surface and cannot *reach* some other surface is effectively stuck in midair where they are. ... TransHab provided this as well as the early Bigelow designs by having a vertical core with "levels" perpendicular to it.

I believe IsaacKuo promotes an idea of an LEO station with two capsules swinging around each other with masses and momenta to reproduce lunar gravity in one and martian in the other. Two of these Transhabs could do that. You could get X square meters of lunar surface at lunar g and test ISRU processes. Maybe test lunar electrostatic dust transport and regolith damage to surfaces.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: go4mars on 03/01/2011 02:52 am
example of the difficulties of a horizontal layout vs. a vertical layout... Remember that these will be used in zero-g

Maybe its a Moon or Mars version. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 03/01/2011 07:28 am
example of the difficulties of a horizontal layout vs. a vertical layout... Remember that these will be used in zero-g

Maybe its a Moon or Mars version. 

It's a mock-up; That implies that it was designed from the outset to work in the 1g gravity, 1,000mb atmospheric pressure of Earth.  The actual free-fall and lunar surface versions will doubtless have many features that simply could not be put in the mock-up as they wouldn't work, at least not without compromising the structure.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Comga on 03/12/2011 11:59 pm
Someone showed me a copy of a very large (230 mm by 350 mm) brochure from Bigelow titled "JUST THE BEGINNING   2011".  It has illustrations of the step by step assembly of a three module space station with three CST-100 capsules and three crews, starting with the launch on some purposely mash-up rocket.    There are illustrations of a three unit and four propulsive support units at "L1", landing, and sitting on the Moon and even a seven unit "Lunar Depot Aries at Lagrangian 1 Point".

There are many comparison illustrations of the enormous available volume when compared to "ISS Destiny Module" / "Traditional Aluminum Can Design". One reason they are so roomy is that Destiny is 80% filled with science racks and their supporting services, while the Bigelow modules are completely empty except for the people floating inside.

There is also an eight page, effusive statement by Robert Bigelow on why leasing a space station is a necessity for any country that wants to project power and prestige.   "Who knows, the very key to levitation (a sort of Holy Grail in the space world) may be waiting to be discovered in that strange environment of microgravity." "We have already linked the connection in power that can exist through enhanced national image, wealth, and influence. "  One of his prospective "Sovereign Nation Consortia" customers is "Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, and Algeria".  This was probably written before those particular countries became, let's say, distracted with personal issues unrelated to space.

The main impression is that there is so much technology to be developed before any of this can be realized.  Just the fourth illustration of the assembly shows a "Supplemental power bus and docking node" with five docking/berthing hatches heading for a rendezvous with the occupied Sundancer/CST-100.  Rigid, steerable solar arrays, (that aren't steered in any of the pictures and pretty darned small), thermal radiators,... The expandable/inflatable structures, as useful as they may be, are just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.

Sorry for the long post. It would be easier to scan and post it but that is proscribed.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 03/13/2011 03:12 am

The main impression is that there is so much technology to be developed before any of this can be realized.  Just the fourth illustration of the assembly shows a "Supplemental power bus and docking node" with five docking/berthing hatches heading for a rendezvous with the occupied Sundancer/CST-100.  Rigid, steerable solar arrays, (that aren't steered in any of the pictures and pretty darned small), thermal radiators,... The expandable/inflatable structures, as useful as they may be, are just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.

Are these pix what Bigelow is actually going to put into space or are thet marketing tools?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 03/15/2011 09:44 pm
New factory looks great. Seems realistic it could be operational by end of Q2.

http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/prosper.php
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mlorrey on 03/16/2011 11:58 pm
Someone showed me a copy of a very large (230 mm by 350 mm) brochure from Bigelow titled "JUST THE BEGINNING   2011".  It has illustrations of the step by step assembly of a three module space station with three CST-100 capsules and three crews, starting with the launch on some purposely mash-up rocket.    There are illustrations of a three unit and four propulsive support units at "L1", landing, and sitting on the Moon and even a seven unit "Lunar Depot Ares at Lagrangian 1 Point".

There are many comparison illustrations of the enormous available volume when compared to "ISS Destiny Module" / "Traditional Aluminum Can Design". One reason they are so roomy is that Destiny is 80% filled with science racks and their supporting services, while the Bigelow modules are completely empty except for the people floating inside.


This isn't accurate. The Bigelow modules are launched uninflated, but with a core that is simply packed with racks of gear, at least as much as a standard ISS module if not more so. The Bigelow module makes its room thereafter from inflation, but the core retains all the equipment it was launched with.

The Genesis modules dont have such cores only because they are small and were only intended to demonstrate the viability of the inflatable technology.

Quote

There is also an eight page, effusive statement by Robert Bigelow on why leasing a space station is a necessity for any country that wants to project power and prestige.   "Who knows, the very key to levitation (a sort of Holy Grail in the space world) may be waiting to be discovered in that strange environment of microgravity." "We have already linked the connection in power that can exist through enhanced national image, wealth, and influence. "  One of his prospective "Sovereign Nation Consortia" customers is "Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, and Algeria".  This was probably written before those particular countries became, let's say, distracted with personal issues unrelated to space.

The main impression is that there is so much technology to be developed before any of this can be realized.  Just the fourth illustration of the assembly shows a "Supplemental power bus and docking node" with five docking/berthing hatches heading for a rendezvous with the occupied Sundancer/CST-100.  Rigid, steerable solar arrays, (that aren't steered in any of the pictures and pretty darned small), thermal radiators,... The expandable/inflatable structures, as useful as they may be, are just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.

Sorry for the long post. It would be easier to scan and post it but that is proscribed.

The solar panels are several times larger than those on an Almaz station, just that the inflatable is so much larger that the panels look small. Secondly, because the inflatable isn't metallic, you dont have the same sort of temperature control problems that you do with metallic modules that rapidly absorb solar radiation, so their radiator needs are much lower.

Solar panels dont need to steer on a time frame that fits within a simulation video.

There remain a lot of countries that seek the prestige of a manned space flight program. South Korea, is one, hence their wet lease of a Lynx vehicle for training. With the end of Shuttle, you wont ever see a South Korean astronaut at ISS again, since they paid $28 million to Russia for their last astronaut to go to ISS, I doubt they'd fork over $63 million for another seat on Soyuz. More likely they'd pay SpaceX for rides to Bigelow's station at much lower rates.

Likewise, Japan will have a choice of buying Soyuz rides from Russia to ISS or else going with SpaceX/Boeing and Bigelow.

For a nation wanting to be seen as independent of western governments (India, Pakistan, South Africa, Brazil, Indonesia, etc) a free market option is not just more economical, but politically more viable.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 03/17/2011 10:35 am
Quote
For a nation wanting to be seen as independent of western governments (India, Pakistan, South Africa, Brazil, Indonesia, etc) a free market option is not just more economical, but politically more viable.

We don't have a space program - a government one anyway. I can't see the African National Congress sending people into space when there's rampant poverty in our own country.

Nope, in this country you have to work for it. You have to make billions, go to the US, naturalise, and start up your own space company.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Calorspace on 03/17/2011 12:26 pm
Quote
For a nation wanting to be seen as independent of western governments (India, Pakistan, South Africa, Brazil, Indonesia, etc) a free market option is not just more economical, but politically more viable.

We don't have a space program - a government one anyway. I can't see the African National Congress sending people into space when there's rampant poverty in our own country.

Nope, in this country you have to work for it. You have to make billions, go to the US, naturalise, and start up your own space company.

I don't think this can be assumed. Look at India
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Comga on 03/17/2011 03:13 pm
There are many comparison illustrations of the enormous available volume when compared to "ISS Destiny Module" / "Traditional Aluminum Can Design". One reason they are so roomy is that Destiny is 80% filled with science racks and their supporting services, while the Bigelow modules are completely empty except for the people floating inside.

This isn't accurate. The Bigelow modules are launched uninflated, but with a core that is simply packed with racks of gear, at least as much as a standard ISS module if not more so. The Bigelow module makes its room thereafter from inflation, but the core retains all the equipment it was launched with.

Solar panels dont need to steer on a time frame that fits within a simulation video.

That's not the point.  It's just how they illustrated and exaggerated the reletive volumes.

And there is no "simulation video", just unsophosticated illustrations.    The point is that they don't have even solid models that can be adjusted.  The solar panels are all shown in some initial orientation, even when that does not make sense.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: apace on 03/17/2011 03:19 pm
And there is no "simulation video", just unsophosticated illustrations.    The point is that they don't have even solid models that can be adjusted.  The solar panels are all shown in some initial orientation, even when that does not make sense.

They have more than 3 years to fix this problems ;-) I love the idea of Bigelow's space station ideas, but first the must go into space, full scale, with people and then we will see more.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Cherokee43v6 on 03/17/2011 03:23 pm
Lets not forget that they have launched and are currently operating two subscale demonstrators using the depicted architecture.

It could be that they are just choosing not to depict it because it is assumed.  Or they may have a different solution that they choose not to share.  Either way, they have actual hardware flying and that says something very important about their commitment.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Comga on 03/17/2011 05:45 pm
Lets not forget that they have launched and are currently operating two subscale demonstrators using the depicted architecture.

It could be that they are just choosing not to depict it because it is assumed.  Or they may have a different solution that they choose not to share.  Either way, they have actual hardware flying and that says something very important about their commitment.

The solar panels on the Genesis modules are smaller and have much simpler mounting and deployment.  I believe that they are not articulated.

This is just one of the technologies illustrated in the booklet that needs significant development.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Cherokee43v6 on 03/17/2011 06:25 pm
The thing is Comga, why do they have to tell us how they are solving (or have solved) the problem.  Bigelow is NOT building these stations as a government contractor.  They are a private entity seeking to launch private stations.

If they wish to keep their solutions as a proprietary intellectual property, that is up to them as a private industry.  Hyundai heavy industries doesn't have to tell the world the makeup of the steel it puts into the ships it builds.  Glaxo doesn't have to explain how it makes Zantac. (The generic folks have to figure out that themselves.)

You're talking about a private company with hundreds of millions in private money invested in these technologies.  They're not going to publicize something that allows someone else to compete against them using their own work.  If you really want to know what they're doing, search the patent office website for their filings.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Comga on 03/17/2011 06:45 pm
Your comments are simplistic.  It has nothing to do with intellectual property.  There is no need to post their bearing and motor specs.  Their goal was to show what they will build.  The brochure does not build confidence that these are anything more than long range plans or that they are capable of delivering.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Cherokee43v6 on 03/18/2011 01:06 am
Your comments are simplistic.  It has nothing to do with intellectual property.  There is no need to post their bearing and motor specs.  Their goal was to show what they will build.  The brochure does not build confidence that these are anything more than long range plans or that they are capable of delivering.

SIMPLISTIC!!!  I'm not the one judging the health of the forest in front of me by a three year old dead leaf that blew in from the next county!

Publicity brochures are not written or designed for engineers.  They are marketing tools designed to create an emotional response from their targeted audience, in this case politicians, bureaucrats, and directors of corporations.  These people are generally lawyers and businessmen, very few have any rigorous applied science training and even fewer have used said training in the last 20 years.  Their purpose is to convince these entities that using the services being offered within the brochure are worth consideration.  They are not there to give the reader a nuts and bolts view of the entire operation.  That aspect is left to the negotiation process for the service if said information is pertinent to the needs of the service being negotiated.

As a businessman, I am not concerned what type of step-down power transformer is outside my factory, I care that I have 440 volts of power available to operate my heavy machinery, 220 for my lights and 110 for the coffeemaker in my secretary's office.  How all that happens is moot to the service.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: beancounter on 03/18/2011 02:12 am
Yes I've been surprised at just how much info' has come out of Bigelow in the last 12 months or so, not how little.

We know they're planning to fly Sundancer as the first habital model; they are human-loop testing the ECS at the moment; they've contracted with Boeing for development of a crew capsule and I forget who but someone else for a propulsion system.  They're expanding their factory and they've got a bunch on MoU's with countries for future module leases.  Oh, they're also talking with NASA about a module on the ISS.

Yep, I'd say that's a fair bit of info'.  As for detailed design - get real.  It's proprietary information.  You're not going to get it - ever! 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 03/18/2011 02:56 am
A lot of info is in Mr. Big's patent filings. Just search them using his name.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 03/18/2011 08:28 am
Quote
For a nation wanting to be seen as independent of western governments (India, Pakistan, South Africa, Brazil, Indonesia, etc) a free market option is not just more economical, but politically more viable.

We don't have a space program - a government one anyway. I can't see the African National Congress sending people into space when there's rampant poverty in our own country.

Nope, in this country you have to work for it. You have to make billions, go to the US, naturalise, and start up your own space company.

I don't think this can be assumed. Look at India


Heavy sarcasm was intended. But the point stands, our economy is not large enough to support much. The space agency has an annual budget of a couple of million US$.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 03/18/2011 01:32 pm
If I'm not mistaken your space agency was launched last year, right? I guess SA space program is in its infancy. You do have some potential partners in the southern hemisphere ;)
Besides, you should get a special price from SpaceX, don't you?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 04/07/2011 04:05 am
I sure would like to see what Bigelow is saying about SpaceX's announcement.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: beancounter on 04/07/2011 05:28 am
I sure would like to see what Bigelow is saying about SpaceX's announcement.
Since Bigelow is already on SpaceX launch manifest, I would say that there's ongoing discussions on a number of fronts and pretty serious ones at that. 
I think there's a distinct possibility that NASA could get left in the dirt if they're not careful.  As I noted once before, only FAA licencing is required for commercial.  NASA only if you visit ISS.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: e of pi on 04/07/2011 01:04 pm
I'm not sure how well a Bigelow module would fit on the Falcon Heavy. My best calculations from publicly available data indicate such a 53 ton module would have a usable volume of about 883 cubic meters, which is certainly an interestingly large number. However, to fit within the Falcon's currently announced payload fairing, it might have to have a much higher length:diameter ratio than any of their other modules.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robotbeat on 04/07/2011 02:00 pm
I'm not sure how well a Bigelow module would fit on the Falcon Heavy. My best calculations from publicly available data indicate such a 53 ton module would have a usable volume of about 883 cubic meters, which is certainly an interestingly large number. However, to fit within the Falcon's currently announced payload fairing, it might have to have a much higher length:diameter ratio than any of their other modules.
Custom fairings are available.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 04/07/2011 03:36 pm
Custom fairings are available.
Does anybody know what the Bigelow Propulsion Buss weighs? It looks to be in the 10 meter or so length (to my Mark 1 Eyeball) in the marketing pix. Could a Faring be made in the 25 meter range on the FH to launch a BA-330 with the Propulsion Buss attached? How high of an orbit could it be placed into using the full Cross Feed capability of an FH?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: grr on 04/07/2011 05:27 pm
I sure would like to see what Bigelow is saying about SpaceX's announcement.
Since Bigelow is already on SpaceX launch manifest, I would say that there's ongoing discussions on a number of fronts and pretty serious ones at that. 
I think there's a distinct possibility that NASA could get left in the dirt if they're not careful.  As I noted once before, only FAA licencing is required for commercial.  NASA only if you visit ISS.

Slim to zero chance of that. The entire guts of Bigelow and SpaceX is from NASA.
In addition, NASA (along with DOD and other TLA) have been funding both companies. NASA will be going to the moon around 2020. And it will likely be with these 2 companies and several others.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: e of pi on 04/07/2011 05:38 pm
I'm not sure how well a Bigelow module would fit on the Falcon Heavy. My best calculations from publicly available data indicate such a 53 ton module would have a usable volume of about 883 cubic meters, which is certainly an interestingly large number. However, to fit within the Falcon's currently announced payload fairing, it might have to have a much higher length:diameter ratio than any of their other modules.
Custom fairings are available.

Well, in that case, my best guess at a Falcon Heavy-max Bigelow unit would be a 9 m by 18 m module with about 890 cubic meters of volume. It might fit inside of the barrel diameter of the current faring, but would require a stretch of the cylindrical portion to almost triple the current length. A larger diameter fairing could get a larger diameter module, with a shorter length.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 04/07/2011 06:04 pm

Well, in that case, my best guess at a Falcon Heavy-max Bigelow unit would be a 9 m by 18 m module with about 890 cubic meters of volume. It might fit inside of the barrel diameter of the current faring, but would require a stretch of the cylindrical portion to almost triple the current length. A larger diameter fairing could get a larger diameter module, with a shorter length.
At 5m x 13.7m in it's launch configuration, a BA-330 should fit into a standard SpaceX FH Faring that measures 5.2m x 13.9m
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: e of pi on 04/07/2011 07:01 pm

Well, in that case, my best guess at a Falcon Heavy-max Bigelow unit would be a 9 m by 18 m module with about 890 cubic meters of volume. It might fit inside of the barrel diameter of the current faring, but would require a stretch of the cylindrical portion to almost triple the current length. A larger diameter fairing could get a larger diameter module, with a shorter length.
At 5m x 13.7m in it's launch configuration, a BA-330 should fit into a standard SpaceX FH Faring that measures 5.2m x 13.9m

Can you point me at where you found that launch config information? I thought that the inflated diameter was around 6.7 m, if it's only a ratio of 6:5 or so in terms of how much an inflatable module is gaining is size after launch...it seems low. It's also worth noting that 5.2 m is the faring's outer dimensions. The usable diameter is only 4.6 m.
(http://www.spacex.com/assets/img/falcon9fairing17ft.jpg)
The module I was talking about were my best guesses at a module that fills the mass launchable by Falcon Heavy, as opposed to one that fits the current default faring. By mass, 53 tons is more like two BA-330s.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Orbital Debris on 04/08/2011 02:43 am

[/quote]

Slim to zero chance of that. The entire guts of Bigelow and SpaceX is from NASA.
In addition, NASA (along with DOD and other TLA) have been funding both companies. NASA will be going to the moon around 2020. And it will likely be with these 2 companies and several others.
[/quote]

Other than CCDev money provided by Boeing how has NASA been funding Bigelow? 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 04/08/2011 08:01 am
To me, the story of Bigelow is a miniature parable of the problems NASA as a whole has because of being subject to political whims.

It was politicians who insisted that Transhab be canned (complaints about "astronauts in balloons") and that only traditional rigid metal-hulled modules be used.  Lo and behold, a commercial entity has picked up the technology and shown just what could have been done with it! A space station with a bigger interior volume than the ISS! A re-usable Earth-to-Moon orbital transfer vehicle! Moonbase modules! NASA is currently struggling to figure out how to launch a capsule into LEO whilst companies like SpaceX, Bigelow, OSC and even ULA (the latter despite being generally far more conservative) are making serious plans for the design of MHLVs, re-usable crew vehicles, lunar settlements and human Mars missions!

NASA would be doing just fine if it didn't have to subsidise so many Congresspersons' re-election bids!
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: beancounter on 04/08/2011 08:02 am


Slim to zero chance of that. The entire guts of Bigelow and SpaceX is from NASA.
In addition, NASA (along with DOD and other TLA) have been funding both companies. NASA will be going to the moon around 2020. And it will likely be with these 2 companies and several others.
[/quote]

Other than CCDev money provided by Boeing how has NASA been funding Bigelow? 

[/quote]

Beat me to it.  Also check out SpaceX launch manifest which is about 50:50 NASA / Commercial.  SpaceX can survive quite well without NASA and certainly they're on public record as stating they'll do commercial crew with or without gov't funding, unlike Boeing at this point.  They say they've been profitable to this point.  They seem to have sufficient funds to embark on FH and think they have a business case.
Again, if NASA gets recalcitrant over crew, SpaceX and Bigelow and anyone else who isn't interested in ISS business doesn't need anything from NASA.  They just need an FAA licence and customers.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 04/08/2011 09:59 am
To me, the story of Bigelow is a miniature parable of the problems NASA as a whole has because of being subject to political whims.

It was politicians who insisted that Transhab be canned (complaints about "astronauts in balloons") and that only traditional rigid metal-hulled modules be used.  Lo and behold, a commercial entity has picked up the technology and shown just what could have been done with it! A space station with a bigger interior volume than the ISS! A re-usable Earth-to-Moon orbital transfer vehicle! Moonbase modules! NASA is currently struggling to figure out how to launch a capsule into LEO whilst companies like SpaceX, Bigelow, OSC and even ULA (the latter despite being generally far more conservative) are making serious plans for the design of MHLVs, re-usable crew vehicles, lunar settlements and human Mars missions!

NASA would be doing just fine if it didn't have to subsidize so many Congresspersons' re-election bids!

Isn't it interesting that all of Von Braun's plans in space used inflatables? His space station, his lunar orbiter and even his giant lander, all used inflatables. He planned to put 50 crew-members on the lunar surface using 3 inflatable landers. 50!
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: 8900 on 04/08/2011 10:13 am
Quote
For a nation wanting to be seen as independent of western governments (India, Pakistan, South Africa, Brazil, Indonesia, etc) a free market option is not just more economical, but politically more viable.

We don't have a space program - a government one anyway. I can't see the African National Congress sending people into space when there's rampant poverty in our own country.

Nope, in this country you have to work for it. You have to make billions, go to the US, naturalise, and start up your own space company.

I don't think this can be assumed. Look at India

do you have an idea how fast the Indian economy is growing? ???
more or less the same rate as China. Most African economies are certainly performing not as good as India.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 04/08/2011 11:48 am
To put a fine point on emerging nations, both India and Brazil are fielding nuclear powered submarines.  Brazil mid-decade and India's lead boat, the INS Sindhuvijay, entered service in 2007.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 04/08/2011 12:34 pm

Can you point me at where you found that launch config information?
I read it on a previous iteration of the Bigelow site. I'm trying to find a cached version but have had no success so far.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: e of pi on 04/08/2011 02:00 pm

Can you point me at where you found that launch config information?
I read it on a previous iteration of the Bigelow site. I'm trying to find a cached version but have had no success so far.
Thanks for looking. The only configuration information I could find in my searches was the Genesis diagrams, so any additional information would be great.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: grr on 04/08/2011 03:33 pm

Quote from: grr

Slim to zero chance of that. The entire guts of Bigelow and SpaceX is from NASA.
In addition, NASA (along with DOD and other TLA) have been funding both companies. NASA will be going to the moon around 2020. And it will likely be with these 2 companies and several others.

Other than CCDev money provided by Boeing how has NASA been funding Bigelow? 


You mean other than the fact that transhab was licensed to them for a song?
 Or that NASA has Engineers working with Bigelow to make their systems robust for ISS?
Or that NASA is funding R&D for life support systems via orbitec?
Or that iLIDS is from NASA?

NASA is working very closely with BA and subsidizing in so many ways, to make it viable.
Right now, lots of discussions to get a BA unit up to the ISS around 2013/2014 timeframe to help get Bigelow going.
That is all funding.
And you pointed out Boeing, but a bigger supplier for Bigelow is likely going to be SpaceX if costs are the major concerns.

Now, is it DIRECT money going to Bigelow like say COTS? Not yet.
But, I think that we will see that shortly once SLS is dead and CONgress allows NASA to push private space into providing services rather than simply building things for them.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 04/08/2011 03:58 pm
If I'm not mistaken your space agency was launched last year, right? I guess SA space program is in its infancy. You do have some potential partners in the southern hemisphere ;)
Besides, you should get a special price from SpaceX, don't you?

Roundabout 2007. Although South Africans who care about such things probably consider SpaceX "our" space program.  :D

I think hosting the Square Kilometre Array would probably be SA's biggest contribution to space science, and I hope we get it.

Science is quite well sheltered in budget terms, and there's a robust academic culture in this country (University of Cape Town is world class). But our basic education sucks and the chances of turning out engineering grads on the scale of China or India is just laughable.

China, India, Brazil, Australia, South Korea would be much more amenable to this sort of thing - something to showcase engineering skill.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mlorrey on 04/08/2011 07:26 pm
Quote
For a nation wanting to be seen as independent of western governments (India, Pakistan, South Africa, Brazil, Indonesia, etc) a free market option is not just more economical, but politically more viable.

We don't have a space program - a government one anyway. I can't see the African National Congress sending people into space when there's rampant poverty in our own country.

Nope, in this country you have to work for it. You have to make billions, go to the US, naturalise, and start up your own space company.

I don't think this can be assumed. Look at India

do you have an idea how fast the Indian economy is growing? ???
more or less the same rate as China. Most African economies are certainly performing not as good as India.

yes but rates of growth are sorta deceiving. A change in income from $1 per month to $2 per month is a 100% growth rate, but a change from $100 per month to $101 per month is only 1% growth.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robert Thompson on 04/08/2011 11:11 pm
The author speaks poorly at the end, but the following has favorable budget analysis for India:

"Public interest in space, by the numbers" August 9, 2010
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1676/1

"American space spending was about 0.34% of its $14.3 trillion GDP (which represents about 25% of the world’s total $58 trillion GDP). Other national spending on space compared to GDP includes Russia at 0.23%, India at 0.07%, Japan at 0.06%, and China at 0.04%."

"Calculating government spending per capita on space puts the US at $158, Japan at $24, Russia at $20, China at $1.50, and India at $0.75."

"if GDP is adjusted by subtracting out $2.75 a day per person, as a proxy for basic living needs, India’s space spending is world-leading at 1.85% of this adjusted GDP. The US is now at 0.35%, Russia at 0.26%, and China and Japan both come in at 0.06%."
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 04/10/2011 11:48 am
A construction update at long last!

http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/prosper.php
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: AdamH on 04/10/2011 10:54 pm
A construction update at long last!

http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/prosper.php
Check out the fancy curves on picture 14,16,18.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: beancounter on 04/11/2011 03:00 am

Quote from: grr

Slim to zero chance of that. The entire guts of Bigelow and SpaceX is from NASA.
In addition, NASA (along with DOD and other TLA) have been funding both companies. NASA will be going to the moon around 2020. And it will likely be with these 2 companies and several others.

Other than CCDev money provided by Boeing how has NASA been funding Bigelow? 


You mean other than the fact that transhab was licensed to them for a song?
 Or that NASA has Engineers working with Bigelow to make their systems robust for ISS?
Or that NASA is funding R&D for life support systems via orbitec?
Or that iLIDS is from NASA?

NASA is working very closely with BA and subsidizing in so many ways, to make it viable.
Right now, lots of discussions to get a BA unit up to the ISS around 2013/2014 timeframe to help get Bigelow going.
That is all funding.
And you pointed out Boeing, but a bigger supplier for Bigelow is likely going to be SpaceX if costs are the major concerns.

Now, is it DIRECT money going to Bigelow like say COTS? Not yet.
But, I think that we will see that shortly once SLS is dead and CONgress allows NASA to push private space into providing services rather than simply building things for them.

Pointless trying to convince those whose minds are made up.  Enough to say you are mistaken and engaging in hyperbole.

There has been some NASA involvement in Bigelow but not anywhere near the amounts spent by Bigelow themselves and let's face it, if Robert Bigelow hadn't started out doing something on his own, we wouldn't have any inflatable module flying.  NASA wasn't interested and couldn't fund it in fact Congress specifically cancelled TransHab. 

So what evidence to you have that NASA is providing capital to ensure Bigelow remains viable?  Where have they spent money on Bigelow, what contracts have they let, what hardware has been developed, what infrastructure has been constructed, what NASA facilities have Bigelow used or required?

Same goes for SpaceX.  Musk didn't start his company to benefit NASA.  They've seen the gaps and aimed for them.  They've had NASA funding for particular milestones via COTS-C.  They had a flight for F1 funded by DoD or Air Force.  They've got a few minor contracts for various studies.  That's about it.  Probably amounts to about $300 million max.  CRS doesn't count since it's payment for services rendered contract.  No service, no payment. 
NASA certainly hasn't been involved in any design, development or manufacturing work that SpaceX has done wrt their booster systems.  Dragon's a different beast and there's been a fair bit of consulting wrt that vehicle but not millions of dollars and not the 'guts' of the business.

As I stated before, SpaceX and Bigelow don't need NASA.  NASA actually needs commercial since they and Congress have wasted billions of dollars on failed programs over the years and still can't agree a way forward.

So, once again, SpaceX and Bigelow can go to FAA for licencing to anywhere other than the ISS.  They don't need NASA involvement whatsoever.  The odds that they'd do that might not be high but that doesn't preclude them for doing so if, as I've said, NASA beats around the bush too much or makes the requirements too onerous and isn't prepared to pay for them.

And your statements regarding NASA being the 'guts' of their businesses is just a statement and not based in reality.

Another question:  what evidence have you to believe that NASA's going to the Moon in 2020?  That program hasn't been identified any NASA budget so there's no funding for the program, there's no funding for the LV, and there's insufficient funding for the MPCV to achieve the required capability.  So, please point out where I can find the above?

 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 04/11/2011 04:39 pm
From the BA Site "In The News" tab;

Bigelow Aerospace Exhibit at the National Space Symposium

Bigelow Aerospace will have a 1,200 sq. ft. exhibit at the 27th National Space Symposium running from April 11th – 14th at the Broadmoor Hotel located in Colorado Springs, CO.  We invite anyone attending the Symposium to come view the Bigelow Aerospace exhibition and learn more about our company’s exciting work and future plans.


Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: e of pi on 04/11/2011 06:41 pm
I wonder which models they'll be taking. 1200 sq. feet is almost enough they could bring a full Sundancer mockup, but I'll be personally more interested if they bring the BA-2100 model I wrote about.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: alexterrell on 04/11/2011 07:10 pm
From the BA Site "In The News" tab;

Bigelow Aerospace Exhibit at the National Space Symposium

Bigelow Aerospace will have a 1,200 sq. ft. exhibit at the 27th National Space Symposium running from April 11th – 14th at the Broadmoor Hotel located in Colorado Springs, CO.  We invite anyone attending the Symposium to come view the Bigelow Aerospace exhibition and learn more about our company’s exciting work and future plans.



...and please ask some really technical questions (working stress of fabric, safety factor, air recirculation rates etc) and put a report and photos in here.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 04/11/2011 07:28 pm
Specifically, ask for hypothetical longer fairings. Is it possible to pack stuff between the walls and core, such that it is slightly wider than the core? I'm thinking of preloading as much as possible Sundancer of BA330 on a FH.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: DigitalMan on 04/12/2011 05:19 am
I'd be interested to know whether they considered different layouts and orientations.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robert Thompson on 04/12/2011 06:05 am
This is fifth generation+, but what would a centrifugal g Bigelow require in terms of diameter (human comfort) and centrifugal floor structure (assuming it cannot be the bladder and other critical surfaces that comprise the actual wall)?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: e of pi on 04/12/2011 07:16 am
This is fifth generation+, but what would a centrifugal g Bigelow require in terms of diameter (human comfort) and centrifugal floor structure (assuming it cannot be the bladder and other critical surfaces that comprise the actual wall)?

There is no space-based data on human-tolerable rotation rates, or on gravity level required to avoid the worst symptoms of microgravity exposure that I am aware of. Thus, the only guaranteed values for gravity level to provide are extremely conservative in my opinion--1 G, 3 RPM or so. This requires a 100 m radius, which is far beyond that which can be provided by a module of Bigelow's geometry--an inflated torus would be better for that. However, if only .33 G is required (Mars, just as an example) and humans can adapt to 5 RPM, then only a 22 m diameter is needed--which might be doable in a future Bigelow-style module.

This is an area I really wish we'd do more research into--beyond the biology of it, it directly effects the engineering requirements to support long-term off-planet habitation.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 04/12/2011 03:30 pm
If you want to do a 100m Diameters, it might be difficult, but not unfeasible. A good question is how many folds can take a bigelow wall. Could you put a 50m x 4m tube on a custom 10m x 4.6m FH fairing? (4.6m x 6.6m, currently, but a 50% length increase shouldn't be such a problem). Then you would need lots of assembly, but could make a hexagonal reticular frame of carbon fibre tubes. Then put a solid connector on each vertices. Each connector joins the Bigelow tube. If you want to go really big, make two of those structures and join each connector with a BA330 transversaly (like two wheels joint at the vertices).
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: simonbp on 04/12/2011 09:26 pm
He planned to put 50 crew-members on the lunar surface using 3 inflatable landers. 50!

And they would then erect launch pads for modified Sargents with thermonuclear warheads for terrestrial bombardment. Also, the MPs among the 50-man crew would defend the base with shoulder-mounted Davy Crockett Atomic Bazookas.

There are times when von Braun made Bond villains look sane...
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mlorrey on 04/12/2011 11:41 pm
He planned to put 50 crew-members on the lunar surface using 3 inflatable landers. 50!

And they would then erect launch pads for modified Sargents with thermonuclear warheads for terrestrial bombardment. Also, the MPs among the 50-man crew would defend the base with shoulder-mounted Davy Crockett Atomic Bazookas.

There are times when von Braun made Bond villains look sane...

You dont measure a Bond Villain's sanity by the size of his toys, but by the complexity of the plot by which the villain plans to kill Bond after he has already drugged him and kidnapped him and has him completely in his power. The size of his toys just tells you how much he is overcompensating.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Orbital Debris on 04/13/2011 04:23 am
From the BA Site "In The News" tab;

Bigelow Aerospace Exhibit at the National Space Symposium

Bigelow Aerospace will have a 1,200 sq. ft. exhibit at the 27th National Space Symposium running from April 11th – 14th at the Broadmoor Hotel located in Colorado Springs, CO.  We invite anyone attending the Symposium to come view the Bigelow Aerospace exhibition and learn more about our company’s exciting work and future plans.



...and please ask some really technical questions (working stress of fabric, safety factor, air recirculation rates etc) and put a report and photos in here.

Yeah, well good luck with that.  All the displays say 'no photos please', and the booth is staffed by, well, let's just say they aren't engineers.  (but as evidenced by how my day went, they will text someone who can answer some questions :)) 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: e of pi on 04/13/2011 04:48 am
Yeah, well good luck with that.  All the displays say 'no photos please', and the booth is staffed by, well, let's just say they aren't engineers.  (but as evidenced by how my day went, they will text someone who can answer some questions :)) 

What was at the booth? Did they have any models of larger modules like the BA-2100, or maybe one for FH?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Cherokee43v6 on 04/14/2011 09:00 pm
This is fifth generation+, but what would a centrifugal g Bigelow require in terms of diameter (human comfort) and centrifugal floor structure (assuming it cannot be the bladder and other critical surfaces that comprise the actual wall)?

There is no space-based data on human-tolerable rotation rates, or on gravity level required to avoid the worst symptoms of microgravity exposure that I am aware of. Thus, the only guaranteed values for gravity level to provide are extremely conservative in my opinion--1 G, 3 RPM or so. This requires a 100 m radius, which is far beyond that which can be provided by a module of Bigelow's geometry--an inflated torus would be better for that. However, if only .33 G is required (Mars, just as an example) and humans can adapt to 5 RPM, then only a 22 m diameter is needed--which might be doable in a future Bigelow-style module.

This is an area I really wish we'd do more research into--beyond the biology of it, it directly effects the engineering requirements to support long-term off-planet habitation.

What about a pair of BA 330 modules with the 'vertical' (transhab)orientation, spun about their docking structure?

Vary the spin rate between missions to test different 'g' levels.

Issues that might need to be addressed (and thus asked about): 
Stress loads as the bag sags under the spin (internal rigid stabilization installed after expansion???) and on the docking ports.
Stack stabilization under spin.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: aceshigh on 04/15/2011 06:20 am
This is fifth generation+, but what would a centrifugal g Bigelow require in terms of diameter (human comfort) and centrifugal floor structure (assuming it cannot be the bladder and other critical surfaces that comprise the actual wall)?

There is no space-based data on human-tolerable rotation rates, or on gravity level required to avoid the worst symptoms of microgravity exposure that I am aware of. Thus, the only guaranteed values for gravity level to provide are extremely conservative in my opinion--1 G, 3 RPM or so. This requires a 100 m radius, which is far beyond that which can be provided by a module of Bigelow's geometry--an inflated torus would be better for that. However, if only .33 G is required (Mars, just as an example) and humans can adapt to 5 RPM, then only a 22 m diameter is needed--which might be doable in a future Bigelow-style module.

This is an area I really wish we'd do more research into--beyond the biology of it, it directly effects the engineering requirements to support long-term off-planet habitation.

fine, but the smaller the diameter, the biggest artificial gravity difference will exist between the feet of the astronauts and their heads.

at 22m diameter, the center of rotation (zero gravity) would be only 11 meters from the floor (actually less, what is the standart thickness of a module´s outer shell?).

Anyway, at 11 meters radius, the zero gravity would be only 9.2 meters above an astronauts head (lets suppose he is 1.80 tall)

at 1g at his feet, what would be the gravity at his head??

and at 0.3g?

anyway, I can only guess that the gravity differential of such magnitude is much worse for the human body than a low gravity on your entire body. I mean... the blood will be REALLY pulled towards the legs... am I wrong?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 04/15/2011 06:36 am
If you only spun it up to have a max of 1/3 G it shouldn't be too bad physiologically. Main thing is to create just enough musculo-skeletal stress to reduce demineralization, muscle wasting and fluid shifting to the upper body. The top-bottom imbalance shouldn't be anything that most well conditioned folks couldn't adapt to, and certainly less harmful that zero G.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Rifleman on 04/15/2011 11:24 am
He planned to put 50 crew-members on the lunar surface using 3 inflatable landers. 50!

And they would then erect launch pads for modified Sargents with thermonuclear warheads for terrestrial bombardment. Also, the MPs among the 50-man crew would defend the base with shoulder-mounted Davy Crockett Atomic Bazookas.

There are times when von Braun made Bond villains look sane...

You forgot the claymore mines that shoot darts designed to puncture space suits as well. Those are the most critical part of the defense.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: joek on 04/15/2011 08:21 pm
If you want to do a 100m Diameters, it might be difficult, but not unfeasible. A good question is how many folds can take a bigelow wall.

Interesting question.  I'd also like to know the primary constraint on the inflated shell diameter and the fold geometry.

In the attached, the image on the right is the original TransHab fold geometry; the left is from the most recent NASA ISS Inflatable Module Mission presentation.

TransHab fold geometry was specifically intended to minimize folds; new geometry suggests it may be less of an issue today.  (Assuming the new diagram is close to reality.)

edit: the other left
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: alexterrell on 04/15/2011 10:37 pm
If you want to do a 100m Diameters, it might be difficult, but not unfeasible. A good question is how many folds can take a bigelow wall.

Interesting question.  I'd also like to know the primary constraint on the inflated shell diameter and the fold geometry.

In the attached, the image on the right is the original TransHab fold geometry; the left is from the most recent NASA ISS Inflatable Module Mission presentation.

TransHab fold geometry was specifically intended to minimize folds; new geometry suggests it may be less of an issue today.  (Assuming the new diagram is close to reality.)

edit: the other left
You could of course launch shell in multiple launches. The first shell would be the pressure vessel only.

Then launch an impact shield - perhaps use millibar pressure to inflate, then put the first shell inside this one.

(Even better but OT, covered in something like "Very large inflatables", just have a pressure vessel without the impact shield, and inflate this below the surface of a very small asteroid or Phobos)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: joek on 04/16/2011 12:14 am
You could of course launch shell in multiple launches. The first shell would be the pressure vessel only.

Then launch an impact shield - perhaps use millibar pressure to inflate, then put the first shell inside this one.
Interesting concept.  NASA's old figures for shell excluding MMOD protection are ~30% kg/m3 of the mass with MMOD protection (e.g., for use on surface where MMOD protection is provided by regolith overlay).  However, NASA's old figures appear to be quite optimistic so hard to tell how valid they are today (e.g., old estimated ~20 kg/m3 vs. current estimated ~40-50 kg/m3 for shell with MMOD protection).

With respect to Bigelow, Mr. B has stated he wants to minimize integration and assembly work in orbit.  (Apologies no reference at the moment; will update if I can find one.)  So I doubt they would go for a multi-lanuch assemble-in-orbit approach.  Eyeballing the figures...
1. TransHab fold pattern suggests inflated shell circumference is limited to ~3x core circumference (see previous post) and thus limited by core/PLF diameter.
2. ISS inflatable mission suggests that packed vs. unpacked shell depth is ~4-5x (but appears to show different packing geometry from TransHab).*

If you just want a really big shell, I'd guess (and only a guess) that PLF diameter is a nominal issue.  If you want to launch an integrated and usable system, there are obviously other factors, such as additional deployment complexity and attendant increase in deployment system size if more complex fold geometry is required; need for larger ECLSS, power, propulsion; etc.  All those would increase the fixed/core size and PLF diameter may thus be a limiting factor.


* NASA ISS inflatable diagrams show: core 3m diameter; packed diameter = ~3.6m with 3 (?) shell folds.  Thus: 3.6m - 3m = 0.6m / 2*3 = 0.1m/fold packed.  Thus: unpacked shell fold = 0.4-0.5m / 0.1m = 4-5x packed vs. unpacked shell depth.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mlorrey on 04/16/2011 05:58 pm
You could of course launch shell in multiple launches. The first shell would be the pressure vessel only.

Then launch an impact shield - perhaps use millibar pressure to inflate, then put the first shell inside this one.
Interesting concept.  NASA's old figures for shell excluding MMOD protection are ~30% kg/m3 of the mass with MMOD protection (e.g., for use on surface where MMOD protection is provided by regolith overlay).  However, NASA's old figures appear to be quite optimistic so hard to tell how valid they are today (e.g., old estimated ~20 kg/m3 vs. current estimated ~40-50 kg/m3 for shell with MMOD protection).

With respect to Bigelow, Mr. B has stated he wants to minimize integration and assembly work in orbit.  (Apologies no reference at the moment; will update if I can find one.)  So I doubt they would go for a multi-lanuch assemble-in-orbit approach.  Eyeballing the figures...
1. TransHab fold pattern suggests inflated shell circumference is limited to ~3x core circumference (see previous post) and thus limited by core/PLF diameter.
2. ISS inflatable mission suggests that packed vs. unpacked shell depth is ~4-5x (but appears to show different packing geometry from TransHab).*

If you just want a really big shell, I'd guess (and only a guess) that PLF diameter is a nominal issue.  If you want to launch an integrated and usable system, there are obviously other factors, such as additional deployment complexity and attendant increase in deployment system size if more complex fold geometry is required; need for larger ECLSS, power, propulsion; etc.  All those would increase the fixed/core size and PLF diameter may thus be a limiting factor.


* NASA ISS inflatable diagrams show: core 3m diameter; packed diameter = ~3.6m with 3 (?) shell folds.  Thus: 3.6m - 3m = 0.6m / 2*3 = 0.1m/fold packed.  Thus: unpacked shell fold = 0.4-0.5m / 0.1m = 4-5x packed vs. unpacked shell depth.

To escape these limitations you'd have to build it actually as a torus that expands away from the core and is only connected to the core by some inflated tube spokes.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: joek on 04/16/2011 08:03 pm
---snip---
---snip---
To escape these limitations you'd have to build it actually as a torus that expands away from the core and is only connected to the core by some inflated tube spokes.

Would you expand on that?  There are obvious practical limitations on the inflated shell diameter vs. packed/core diameter today, but there do not appear to be any fundamental limitations?  Thanks.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 04/18/2011 01:12 am
Don't think this has been posted yet. Life Support update.

http://www.spacenews.com/civil/110411-bigelow-tests-life-support.html

Did anyone see Bigelow's exhibit at the symposium?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Norm Hartnett on 04/18/2011 01:58 am
Don't think this has been posted yet. Life Support update.

Nice comment from Eric Haakonstad, Bigelow Aerospace chief engineer:
Quote
“We’re not reinventing the wheel here,” Haakonstad said. “All we’re trying to do is take the technology development that our tax dollars through NASA have developed and package them into a more producible form factor. We’re not trying to be cutting edge in terms of technology; we are trying to be cutting edge in terms of affordability and availability and ruggedness.”

He was referring specifically to the ECLS but this comment could apply to most endeavors in commercial space.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: grr on 04/18/2011 07:58 am
Don't think this has been posted yet. Life Support update.

http://www.spacenews.com/civil/110411-bigelow-tests-life-support.html

Did anyone see Bigelow's exhibit at the symposium?

I keep trying to find out how they are going to do toilet and perhaps personal hygene, but it appears that it is an afterthought.
I know that is a strange thing, but NASA has not been able to do much with the toilet, and oddly, I thought that they had a decent solution for showering (basically, a bag from your neck down), yet the ISS does not use it. Also been trying to figure out where to stash those items. Seems like at some point, somebody in the west, has to come up with decent solution and get these tested.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Norm Hartnett on 04/18/2011 04:15 pm
I keep trying to find out how they are going to do toilet and perhaps personal hygene, but it appears that it is an afterthought.

I don't think I'd characterize it as an afterthought,
Quote from: BA
“Eight hours is a convenient steppingstone for us,” Haakonstad said in an April 4 interview. “It’s enough time to get to steady-state conditions but not necessarily long enough where we have to worry about — we’ll call it overnight hygiene and sleeping arrangements.”
, they are clearly aware of the problem and are developing solutions.
Quote from: BA
"He said within the next couple of months Bigelow Aerospace plans to conduct a 30-hour demonstration of the ECLS system followed by another lasting up to a week."
As I quoted above, they are looking for production capable, affordable and rugged solutions.

Edit;
I thought that they had a decent solution for showering (basically, a bag from your neck down), yet the ISS does not use it. Also been trying to figure out where to stash those items. Seems like at some point, somebody in the west, has to come up with decent solution and get these tested.
I thought that the giant wet wipe was a rather elegant solution, myself. It eliminates the problem of loose water in a weightless environment and addresses the personal hygiene issue. True it does introduce yet another solid waste that is not recyclable.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: manboy on 04/19/2011 12:37 am
Don't think this has been posted yet. Life Support update.

http://www.spacenews.com/civil/110411-bigelow-tests-life-support.html

Did anyone see Bigelow's exhibit at the symposium?
I thought that they had a decent solution for showering (basically, a bag from your neck down), yet the ISS does not use it.
I believe I saw a video a while back that had an astronaut saying wet wipes were preferred over a shower.

Did anyone see Bigelow's exhibit at the symposium?
I could barely find any news stories relating to the symposium, it seems like either the media wasn't invited or they just didn't care.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robotbeat on 04/19/2011 12:52 am
I don't think the symposium was very media-friendly. I think I remember hearing that photography was not allowed for the Bigelow stuff.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: e of pi on 04/19/2011 08:18 pm
I don't think the symposium was very media-friendly. I think I remember hearing that photography was not allowed for the Bigelow stuff.
It seems really odd to me to have such a big booth and then not allow any news of what you showed to leak out. Does that seem odd to anyone else?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: simonbp on 04/20/2011 09:14 pm
It means their audience was potential customers, not the general public.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 05/02/2011 07:25 am
SatNews.... (http://www.satnews.com/cgi-bin/story.cgi?number=797050463)

Quote
Robert Bigelow, Founder and President of Bigelow Aerospace, will be the Honored Keynote Speaker at the ISDC Governors' Dinner and Gala to be held in the Davidson Center at the U.S. Space & Rocket Center in Huntsville, Alabama on May 20. >
 Mr. Bigelow will also receive the National Space Society’s Space Pioneer Award for Space Development for his efforts to advance the technology of space habitats....
>
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 05/10/2011 09:41 pm
Another update. The fancy curves seem to be a viewing area.

http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/prosper.php
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Prober on 05/11/2011 04:42 pm
More on the NASA Feb. visit:

http://www.lvrj.com/business/las-vegas-entrepreneur-wants-to-upgrade-space-modules-115356329.html

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: SpacemanSpiff on 05/12/2011 06:11 am
The limit on the inflated shell diameter is dependent on the diameter of the launch vehicle fairing that the payload must fit within. This is always your number one constraint for a space vehicle that does not possess it's own pressure shell.
Cheers,
SS





If you want to do a 100m Diameters, it might be difficult, but not unfeasible. A good question is how many folds can take a bigelow wall.

Interesting question.  I'd also like to know the primary constraint on the inflated shell diameter and the fold geometry.

In the attached, the image on the right is the original TransHab fold geometry; the left is from the most recent NASA ISS Inflatable Module Mission presentation.

TransHab fold geometry was specifically intended to minimize folds; new geometry suggests it may be less of an issue today.  (Assuming the new diagram is close to reality.)

edit: the other left
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: joek on 05/12/2011 06:22 am
The limit on the inflated shell diameter is dependent on the diameter of the launch vehicle fairing that the payload must fit within. This is always your number one constraint for a space vehicle that does not possess it's own pressure shell.

Can you expand on that please?  Do you have data you can share?  Specifically, ratio of core diameter vs. shell packed diameter vs. shell inflated diameter?  Thanks.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: SpacemanSpiff on 05/12/2011 06:24 am
In order for them to show you anything you'd have to sign a non-disclosure agreement. This guy is king of the IP.


I don't think the symposium was very media-friendly. I think I remember hearing that photography was not allowed for the Bigelow stuff.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: joek on 05/12/2011 07:13 am
In order for them to show you anything you'd have to sign a non-disclosure agreement. This guy is king of the IP.

Understood.  Anyone who has followed Bigelow understands that they are tight (as are most high-tech/bleeding-edge enterprises).  Short of all of us signing an NDA or stating "it's secret", can you contribute to the collective knowledge that isn't otherwise known with credible sources?

edit: Or at least sources with a creditable hypothesis?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: beancounter on 05/12/2011 07:20 am
More on the NASA Feb. visit:

http://www.lvrj.com/business/las-vegas-entrepreneur-wants-to-upgrade-space-modules-115356329.html



Ok so the spend is now up from $180m to $215m.  That's starting to get close to half of what he says he's willing to spend.  I wonder how dependant on NASA largess Bigelow is or is he simply attempting to get a bit more funding to accelerate things or save money that he have to spend in any case?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 05/12/2011 07:56 am
I would think a large amount of recent expendatures is that 180,000 sq/ft expansion they're building in Nevada. Once that's finished & outfitted they can get down to brass tacks.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 05/12/2011 03:10 pm
The limit on the inflated shell diameter is dependent on the diameter of the launch vehicle fairing that the payload must fit within. This is always your number one constraint for a space vehicle that does not possess it's own pressure shell.
In my experience, thin walled pressure vessels are constrained by the tensile strength of the wall material. As you increase the diameter, you increase the tensile effort, and thus you reach a maximum (for a given safety margin). But here we want to do a toroid, so the question was more how much could you fit. A back of the envelope calculation was that a 2m ID tube, plus a .3m wall thickness, in a 50m torus, was around 350m³. A Falcon 9 fairing is in the order of a 130m³.
An 8.4m fairing (ID 7.6m, with a 20m length) would have around 950m³. That is around the total wall volume of a 120m x 2m ID toroid. Of course here we have no structure and no equipment, and the wall is arbitrarily foldable (though incompressible). I a HLV is ever developed, a 50m toroid for centripetal gravity could be developed. If you launched it in segments, then you'd be running into tensile strength problems.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/12/2011 03:46 pm
The limit on the inflated shell diameter is dependent on the diameter of the launch vehicle fairing that the payload must fit within. This is always your number one constraint for a space vehicle that does not possess it's own pressure shell.
In my experience, thin walled pressure vessels are constrained by the tensile strength of the wall material. As you increase the diameter, you increase the tensile effort, and thus you reach a maximum (for a given safety margin). But here we want to do a toroid, so the question was more how much could you fit. A back of the envelope calculation was that a 2m ID tube, plus a .3m wall thickness, in a 50m torus, was around 350m³. A Falcon 9 fairing is in the order of a 130m³.
An 8.4m fairing (ID 7.6m, with a 20m length) would have around 950m³. That is around the total wall volume of a 120m x 2m ID toroid. Of course here we have no structure and no equipment, and the wall is arbitrarily foldable (though incompressible). I a HLV is ever developed, a 50m toroid for centripetal gravity could be developed. If you launched it in segments, then you'd be running into tensile strength problems.
Tensile strength isn't the limit. You can always increase wall thickness.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 05/12/2011 04:02 pm
This Pic from the Nautilus-X thread shows a test torus that might be deployed in the ISS.
Figuring a greater diameter of 60 feet & a lesser diameter of around 10 feet, how big a faring would be needed to put it in LEO?
(http://www.hobbyspace.com/AAdmin/Images/Transport/NASA/NAUTILUS-X/ISS_centrifugeDemo.jpg)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 05/12/2011 04:04 pm
Tensile strength isn't the limit. You can always increase wall thickness.
The rate of increase of wall thickness is higher than the inner id, until eventually it stops being a thin walled PV. In any case the original question was which were the limits in outer diameter of a torus. Is it volume, is it material strength, is it vibrations, weight, material foldability?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Bill White on 05/12/2011 04:04 pm
This Pic from the Nautilus-X thread shows a test torus that might be deployed in the ISS.
Figuring a greater diameter of 60 feet & a lesser diameter of around 10 feet, how big a faring would be needed to put it in LEO?

A question about this design.

Would it be feasible to launch the torus in a linear configuration and then attach the ends to form a torus after arriving in LEO?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 05/12/2011 04:11 pm
This Pic from the Nautilus-X thread shows a test torus that might be deployed in the ISS.
Figuring a greater diameter of 60 feet & a lesser diameter of around 10 feet, how big a faring would be needed to put it in LEO?
(http://www.hobbyspace.com/AAdmin/Images/Transport/NASA/NAUTILUS-X/ISS_centrifugeDemo.jpg)
If you mean that the outer diameter of the torus is 18m, an the inner diameter of the section of the tube is 2.5m. And assuming that the walls are 0.3m thick. I get around 160m³ of wall. Again, no hard parts, no compression, infinite foldability. A Falcon 5m fairing is around 130m³, plus a small maneuvering engine. So Bigelow modules should actually be volume constrained. At least for this sizes.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 05/12/2011 04:14 pm
This Pic from the Nautilus-X thread shows a test torus that might be deployed in the ISS.
Figuring a greater diameter of 60 feet & a lesser diameter of around 10 feet, how big a faring would be needed to put it in LEO?

A question about this design.

Would it be feasible to launch the torus in a linear configuration and then attach the ends to form a torus after arriving in LEO?
That certainly seems the way to go, but I have no idea whether it would work that way or not.
Maybe it would just take some hands on assembly?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 05/12/2011 04:18 pm
If you mean that the outer diameter of the torus is 18m, an the inner diameter of the section of the tube is 2.5m. And assuming that the walls are 0.3m thick. I get around 160m³ of wall. Again, no hard parts, no compression, infinite foldability. A Falcon 5m fairing is around 130m³, plus a small maneuvering engine. So Bigelow modules should actually be volume constrained. At least for this sizes.
Is a 5m faring necessarily the largest diameter faring that can fit on a 3.6m body? If not, what is the largest that could be lifted to LEO?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 05/12/2011 04:28 pm
Well, ULA has said they could even fit a 7.2m fairing in their 3.9m Atlas V body. At client's cost, of course. So I don't really know. Besides, the Payloads not only weight a lot, they are drag, and lot's of that. A 5m has a 19.6m² of area (I'm assuming the cx to be equal for any size). A 7.2m would have 40.7m². That would at least double your drag. Probably lower your maxQ significantly. And since the Merlin 1 isn't throttlable you might have a problem there. Atlas V's RD-180 can throttle and thus can keep a lower maxQ, at the expense of performance, of course.
Here the LV should be whatever NASA comes with for a HLV. I would assume that a 8.4m fairing (from the ET's width), would give you at least 7.6m of ID. And you can have twice that length before it starts to taper. That would be 15.2m. That could give you a 220m³ plus the top taper. Since this assumes the OD of the main stage, then it's quite possible that it could be made much longer. Your limiting factor would probably be VIB doors.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Downix on 05/12/2011 05:09 pm
Ok, studying the picture a bit.  The central hub is about 2/3 the size of the module it is attached to.  Those modules are 4.4m wide, so, applying this would give a hub size of ~3m.  The hub is the widest hard point to be concerned about.  To either side, you have support structures which collapse, fold up in a way ideal for transport.  The walkthrough thicker support also has a telescoping capacity it appears in this picture, which means it can be shortened.  This appears to allow that to be reduced in length by a third for storage.  It appears at full length to be 1.5x the central hubs diameter, so would be 4.5m.  Assuming that the hard point of the ring at the end of this walkthrough point is the same width as the central hub, the diameter of the interior can be determined.  The diameter of the ring as it attaches to that point appears to be the same as that of the section itself it appears, so would also be 3m, plenty to stand up in. 

So, let us add it up at this point, to build a radius.  Half of the hub would be 1.5m.  Adding the connection would give us an additional 4.5m, for 6m.  Adding 3m would give us a radius of 9m, for a total diameter of 18m.  But now let us collapse it.

3m core, adding the deflated sections and drawing the two telescoping pieces on each side in would be drawn down to just under 4.4m.  Moving the access tunnel into storage position reduces it's length to 3m, so adding in the hub, tunnel, and ring link you get 9m.  The bottom section in the picture appears to be linked through a hard point, non-telescoping.  But it's hard point is also thin, ideal to move up and out of the way when deflated.  So, my thought was that this would be the piece that required spacewalk assembly.  When deflated, the ring would be folded down along the side of the hub, rather than on the bottom.  It would therefore still fit under a 5m long fairing on an Atlas with the Centaur.  Once on-site, it would then have the bottom ring and structure attached, the access tunnel extended, then the whole thing inflated.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: joek on 05/13/2011 01:01 am
To answer the questions about size and PLF constraints  for the NAUTLIUS ISS centrifuge demo (really belongs in the NAUTILUS thread)...

Torus is spec'd at 30ft OD (they also show figures for 40ft OD so may be TBD), with 50in cross section (ID).  Self-deploying and IVA for final construction (no EVA).  Launch on Delta IV or Atlas V; presumably existing PLF's are sufficient.  See:

NAUTILUS-X (slide 11, 13, 16)
http://spirit.as.utexas.edu/~fiso/telecon/Holderman-Henderson_1-26-11/Holderman_1-26-11.ppt (http://spirit.as.utexas.edu/~fiso/telecon/Holderman-Henderson_1-26-11/Holderman_1-26-11.ppt)

TAAT Study Team Applications and Plans (slide 13)
http://spirit.as.utexas.edu/~fiso/telecon/Holderman-Henderson_1-26-11/Henderson_1-26-11.ppt (http://spirit.as.utexas.edu/~fiso/telecon/Holderman-Henderson_1-26-11/Henderson_1-26-11.ppt)

edit: correct links.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 05/13/2011 03:28 am
To answer the questions about size and PLF constraints  for the NAUTLIUS ISS centrifuge demo (really belongs in the NAUTILUS thread)...

Torus is spec'd at 30ft OD (they also show figures for 40ft OD so may be TBD), with 50in cross section (ID).  Self-deploying and IVA for final construction (no EVA).  Launch on Delta IV or Atlas V; presumably existing PLF's are sufficient.  See:

We weren't talking about the Demo model. We were discussing the dimensions of the possible full size model.
The Demo model was proposed by Bigelow. I think it would be safe to assume that if the Bigelow Demo design is validated in those tests, Bigelow will build the full size model.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: joek on 05/13/2011 04:18 am
We weren't talking about the Demo model. We were discussing the dimensions of the possible full size model.
The Demo model was proposed by Bigelow. I think it would be safe to assume that if the Bigelow Demo design is validated in those tests, Bigelow will build the full size model.

Thanks for the clarification, but I'm still confused...

1. There is a proposed inflatable hab for ISS.  It has been proposed for a ~2013 mission.  It has nothing to do with NAUTILUS-X (it is not a torus as shown in the pic's in previous posts and has nothing to do with artificial gravity).  Apparently Bigelow has some involvement.

2. There is a proposed NAUTILUS-X ISS demo centrifuge, which is what is shown in the pics in previous posts. It has nothing to do with (1), proposed for a ~2015 mission and AFAIK as far as I know Bigelow has no involvement at this point and it is little more than a powerpoint exercise.

3. There is the NAUTILUS-X operational centrifuge, which AFAICT as far as I can tell is little more than a a wet dream and significantly larger than the ISS demo version (which is what is shown in the pics in previous posts).
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: telomerase99 on 05/13/2011 04:46 am
What is AFAICT?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Cinder on 05/13/2011 07:42 am
As far as I can tell. (http://www.google.com/search?q=acronyms)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: notsorandom on 05/25/2011 03:36 am
Here are some sides from a presentation given by Bigelow at the International Space Development Conference. http://www.onorbit.com/node/3393 I hadn't seen mention of a BA-330 asteroid mission before. There is also some more details on a HLV launched module. Interesting stuff!
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: majormajor42 on 05/25/2011 05:55 am
Would like to see what the FH version would look like, being that the BA2100 is too heavy. They did mention in passing at some point in the last couple months that they could design something that might be a good fit. Hoping we'll see them draw something up at some point.

I also like the 10th page, which shows the Boeing capsule and what looks like a Dragon Cargo craft both visiting a station

from earlier:

I'm not sure how well a Bigelow module would fit on the Falcon Heavy. My best calculations from publicly available data indicate such a 53 ton module would have a usable volume of about 883 cubic meters, which is certainly an interestingly large number. However, to fit within the Falcon's currently announced payload fairing, it might have to have a much higher length:diameter ratio than any of their other modules.
Custom fairings are available.

Well, in that case, my best guess at a Falcon Heavy-max Bigelow unit would be a 9 m by 18 m module with about 890 cubic meters of volume. It might fit inside of the barrel diameter of the current faring, but would require a stretch of the cylindrical portion to almost triple the current length. A larger diameter fairing could get a larger diameter module, with a shorter length.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 05/25/2011 10:30 am
It looks like Bigelow are taking a leaf out of SpaceX's book and telling NASA to "just get on with it".  I wonder how long The Powers That Be can justify spending time and effort on studies, counter-studies and revised studies with several commercial companies (and I include ULA here too) are starting to propose actual working architectures, including launchers, CRVs, space infrastructure and detailed mission vehicle designs.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 05/25/2011 02:56 pm
It would be nice if someone could clear up all the confusion about the various Bigelow proposals, such as what is the relationship of Sundancer to the BA-330 or Nautilus, or any of the other names that have been thrown about as ready to launch Real Soon Now?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Space Junkie on 05/25/2011 03:30 pm
From the ISDC presentation above:
Quote
Dry mass [BA2100] is approximately 65 metric tons...70 metric ton capable launch vehicle will allow initial launch of the vehicle and 10% of water required for supplemental radiation shield.

Am I reading this correctly that the BA2100 would use 50 metric tons of water for radiation shielding? I don't recall seeing this mentioned before.

Where exactly would this water be stored? In the walls of the station for constant shielding or concentrated in a small 'storm shelter' for high radiation events?

Do the smaller modules have similar systems planned?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 05/25/2011 03:41 pm
It would be nice if someone could clear up all the confusion about the various Bigelow proposals, such as what is the relationship of Sundancer to the BA-330 or Nautilus, or any of the other names that have been thrown about as ready to launch Real Soon Now?

Sundancer is a 2/3-length version of BA330; Everything else is identical, AFAIK.  'Nautilus' was the old model name for BA330.  Bigelow stopped using that for some reason.

The first Sundancer has been on SpaceX's books for years now.  The problem is that you can't just launch one of these things and leave it up there; You need crews to visit it just to outfit it for operations.  So, Bigelow are waiting until after someone has an operational ETO crew vehicle for them to use.  Eventually, their patience ran out and they talked Boeing into building the CST-100 instead.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Orbital Debris on 05/26/2011 03:31 am
The Bigelow Nautilus was one of the original concepts (circa 2003) and names for the 330, no relation to the Nautilus-X concepts currently being put out.
The two Genesis prototypes currently in orbit are 1/3 scale demonstrators for the 330.  They were silo launched from Dombarovsky.
Galaxy (~16m3 and inflatable, but not habitable) was to follow on a stretched Dnepr, but was canceled when Russia 'democratized' the pricing structure.
The Sundancer concept took Galaxy's place as Bigelow decided to press with a human habitable design.  Sundancer is/was to have functioning ECLSS systems, and be habitable.
Once systems were proven in Sundancer, they would be upscaled to BA330 for commercial sale.
Complexes require a prop bus to provide additional tankage and propulsion systems.
The BA2100 is a future concept in search of launch vehicle.

Don't get too wrapped up in the pictures.  Don't judge a book by its cover, or a company by its marketing department. ;)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: e of pi on 05/26/2011 04:00 am
This is just a head's up, but after feeding some numbers from the presentation into my module calculator, I've discovered some serious issues with it and am retracting it. Hopefully this is just until I can get the model revised and fixed, but I wanted to make it known--especially since someone a few posts up the thread was citing a post of mine based on that model. The full story is on my blog (http://engineerinprogress.blogspot.com/2011/05/mistakes-were-made.html).
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 06/05/2011 02:50 pm
I too would like to correct a mistake.
Earlier in this thread I incorrectly claimed that Bigelow was going to build the Centrifuge Demonstrator sceduled for 2013 on the ISS. They are not involved as far as I know & I have it on excellent authority that they have no current plans to build a centrifuge.
I'm sorry for providing misinformation that was based on a misunderstanding.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: yg1968 on 06/05/2011 08:35 pm
Robert Bigelow’s Keynote Address at the 2011 ISDC Governors’ Gala:
http://moonandback.com/2011/06/03/robert-bigelows-keynote-address-at-the-2011-isdc-governors-gala/
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: tigerade on 06/05/2011 11:34 pm
Robert Bigelow’s Keynote Address at the 2011 ISDC Governors’ Gala:
http://moonandback.com/2011/06/02/robert-bigelows-keynote-address-at-the-2011-isdc-governors-gala/

I like this guy.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Scia on 06/05/2011 11:58 pm
Robert Bigelow’s Keynote Address at the 2011 ISDC Governors’ Gala:
http://moonandback.com/2011/06/02/robert-bigelows-keynote-address-at-the-2011-isdc-governors-gala/

I like this guy.
Second
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Diagoras on 06/06/2011 01:26 am
Dear God, that is awesome. I...words fail me.

That's just awesome.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robotbeat on 06/06/2011 01:50 am
Dear God, that is awesome. I...words fail me.

That's just awesome.
It'll be awesome when and if it happens.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Diagoras on 06/06/2011 01:52 am
Dear God, that is awesome. I...words fail me.

That's just awesome.
It'll be awesome when and if it happens.

Oh? Do you know something I don't?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jorge on 06/06/2011 02:58 am
Dear God, that is awesome. I...words fail me.

That's just awesome.
It'll be awesome when and if it happens.

Oh? Do you know something I don't?

He knows Bigelow was talking about the future, and predictions are difficult, especially about the future. So the things Bigelow spoke of are not guaranteed to happen.

What part of that did you not know?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robotbeat on 06/06/2011 03:32 am
Yeah, I've got powerpoint fatigue, so I'm no longer impressed by any fanciful powerpoint depictions of ambitious spacecraft. Can't take much more. I want to see all these spacecraft which we've been hearing about so much flying and doing their jobs. Just got to wait, I guess. Soon, Dawn will arrive at Vesta, Dragon and Cygnus will be at ISS, MSL and Juno will launch towards Mars and Jupiter, Orion will launch (unmanned, at first), James Webb will launch, commercial crew will launch, Bigelow will launch (maybe).

That said, there are lots of missions which have been going on for years and that are still interesting, like Cassini, MER Opportunity, MRO, and ISS.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 06/06/2011 04:19 am
The Sundancer concept took Galaxy's place as Bigelow decided to press with a human habitable design.  Sundancer is/was to have functioning ECLSS systems, and be habitable.
Once systems were proven in Sundancer, they would be upscaled to BA330 for commercial sale.

So, Sundancer is the Next Step. When is it supposed to fly?

The reason that I ask is that Bigelow is prone to big plans, but the actual reality tends to be mockups, subscale models, and buildings.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: pathfinder_01 on 06/06/2011 04:24 am
The Sundancer concept took Galaxy's place as Bigelow decided to press with a human habitable design.  Sundancer is/was to have functioning ECLSS systems, and be habitable.
Once systems were proven in Sundancer, they would be upscaled to BA330 for commercial sale.

So, Sundancer is the Next Step. When is it supposed to fly?

The reason that I ask is that Bigelow is prone to big plans, but the actual reality tends to be mockups, subscale models, and buildings.


2014 ATM
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Namechange User on 06/06/2011 04:27 am
The Sundancer concept took Galaxy's place as Bigelow decided to press with a human habitable design.  Sundancer is/was to have functioning ECLSS systems, and be habitable.
Once systems were proven in Sundancer, they would be upscaled to BA330 for commercial sale.

So, Sundancer is the Next Step. When is it supposed to fly?

The reason that I ask is that Bigelow is prone to big plans, but the actual reality tends to be mockups, subscale models, and buildings.

Doesn't do much good to have real hardware on orbit if you can't get to it.  That's why Bigelow hinges on ISS success and why we are heading into perilous times.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: pathfinder_01 on 06/06/2011 04:38 am

Doesn't do much good to have real hardware on orbit if you can't get to it.  That's why Bigelow hinges on ISS success and why we are heading into perilous times.

He is hinged on commercail crew success. The ISS may be it's first destination but frankly until fy2010 NASA wasn't very helpful in terms of commercail crew(commercail cargo yes).
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Diagoras on 06/06/2011 10:04 am
Dear God, that is awesome. I...words fail me.

That's just awesome.
It'll be awesome when and if it happens.

Oh? Do you know something I don't?

He knows Bigelow was talking about the future, and predictions are difficult, especially about the future. So the things Bigelow spoke of are not guaranteed to happen.

What part of that did you not know?

None. Glad to know I'm in the loop.

In other news, ice cream is delicious. ;)

Quote
Yeah, I've got powerpoint fatigue, so I'm no longer impressed by any fanciful powerpoint depictions of ambitious spacecraft. Can't take much more. I want to see all these spacecraft which we've been hearing about so much flying and doing their jobs. Just got to wait, I guess. Soon, Dawn will arrive at Vesta, Dragon and Cygnus will be at ISS, MSL and Juno will launch towards Mars and Jupiter, Orion will launch (unmanned, at first), James Webb will launch, commercial crew will launch, Bigelow will launch (maybe).

That said, there are lots of missions which have been going on for years and that are still interesting, like Cassini, MER Opportunity, MRO, and ISS.

Ah, fair enough. I thought you might have spotted some news of delays or something that I hadn't. Bigelow has two pathfinder modules in orbit, are buying up factory space and beginning fabrication, and appears to have closed the business case to their satisfaction, so I'm fairly confident of their success. Still, it's good to live in the present rather than eternally yearn for a distant future.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Namechange User on 06/06/2011 02:21 pm

Doesn't do much good to have real hardware on orbit if you can't get to it.  That's why Bigelow hinges on ISS success and why we are heading into perilous times.

He is hinged on commercail crew success. The ISS may be it's first destination but frankly until fy2010 NASA wasn't very helpful in terms of commercail crew(commercail cargo yes).

And commercial crew success is hinged directly to ISS success.  Don't attempt to confuse the facts because it suits your motives.  In fact, at this point it is all very much integrated. 

To look at it any other way, as some like to do, is a classic problem in order to place responsibility at someone else's feet.  An example of this is what you did above, your statment about NASA not being very "helpful", for no reason other than to say, it exactly what I'm talking about. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 06/06/2011 05:09 pm

Doesn't do much good to have real hardware on orbit if you can't get to it.  That's why Bigelow hinges on ISS success and why we are heading into perilous times.

He is hinged on commercail crew success. The ISS may be it's first destination but frankly until fy2010 NASA wasn't very helpful in terms of commercail crew(commercail cargo yes).

And commercial crew success is hinged directly to ISS success.  Don't attempt to confuse the facts because it suits your motives.  In fact, at this point it is all very much integrated. 

To look at it any other way, as some like to do, is a classic problem in order to place responsibility at someone else's feet.  An example of this is what you did above, your statment about NASA not being very "helpful", for no reason other than to say, it exactly what I'm talking about. 

Forgetting for a moment the stuff about placing responsibility somewhere, it looks like Bigelow's effort is completely dependent on the commercial crew initiative resulting in availability of affordable and safe crew transport. This is what Bigelow has been saying for about ten years, so he is consistent.

The problem is that Bigelow's pronouncements imply that such crew transport will be available Real Soon Now. Or, to look at it another way, if Bigelow has been dependent on crew transport, what was the point of his announced plans of 2005 or so, when no crew transport was on the horizon? It kind of reminds me of plans to explore the moon for Helium-3, when nuclear fusion is still 15 years away.


Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Space Junkie on 06/06/2011 05:18 pm
Ah, fair enough. I thought you might have spotted some news of delays or something that I hadn't. Bigelow has two pathfinder modules in orbit, are buying up factory space and beginning fabrication, and appears to have closed the business case to their satisfaction, so I'm fairly confident of their success. Still, it's good to live in the present rather than eternally yearn for a distant future.

Yes. Typical powerpoint rockets or spacecraft are entirely dependent on massive funding from someone else. Robert Bigelow has put hundreds of millions of his own dollars into this project.

Also, he's in his mid sixties and not getting any younger. I would never accuse Musk or Bezos or Carmack of slacking (far from it), but Bigelow can't afford to be quite as patient as they can.

Granted, the project is dependent on commercial crew and the BA2100 requires a super heavy. Still, I don't think this should be put in the same powerpoint category as say Skylon.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: manboy on 06/06/2011 05:19 pm
Here's the presentation that went with that slideshow.

Robert Bigelow’s Keynote Address at the 2011 ISDC Governors’ Gala
http://moonandback.com/2011/06/02/robert-bigelows-keynote-address-at-the-2011-isdc-governors-gala/
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 06/06/2011 06:19 pm
Granted, the project is dependent on commercial crew and the BA2100 requires a super heavy. Still, I don't think this should be put in the same powerpoint category as say Skylon.


Correct. Anyone who puts something into orbit gets points.

On the other hand, I can't see the business case for Bigelow closing, but he has made a lot more $$ than I have, so one must be open minded about these things.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 06/06/2011 07:11 pm
ESA will be continually planning to fly human crew, Russia is having a hard enough time building enough Soyuz for the ISS and it will be some time before Orion flys. I doubt the Chinese will even want to go to a Bigelow station. That leaves Commercial crew; CST-1000, Dragon and Dreamchaser. All three will likely go there. And, lest we forget, the Indians are formulating their own plans for crewed spacecraft. Unlike the ESA (and NASA/Russia), they have a history of following thru on their plans and not studying them for decades. So I think an Indian spacecraft will visit as well, probably before Orion. They may even lease a BA-330 for their own. Don't look for Orion to go to a Bigelow station any time soon. SLS will be having shakedown launches for the rest of the decade to LEO/ISS and the only existing LV that can lift it to LEO is the D-IV Heavy, which cannot be human rated at this time. Atlas-V Heavy can handle Orion but it has never flown.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 06/08/2011 11:00 pm
Link (http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/prosper.php)


New construction update. That's going to be one BIG factory. I can't wait to see the first Sundancer or BA-330 pop out the end of it.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: simonbp on 06/08/2011 11:56 pm
At least they're thinking ahead more than SpaceX; the first F9 first stage required some "building modifications" to get out of the old El Segundo factory...
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: kevin-rf on 06/09/2011 12:20 am
At least they're thinking ahead more than SpaceX; the first F9 first stage required some "building modifications" to get out of the old El Segundo factory...

You act like that is bad thing. When I was in college, I did a few coops at kodak, it was quite common for them to remove walls for new equipment. Of course there was the indecent where they took out the wrong second floor wall flattening a pickup truck in the process...
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: beancounter on 06/09/2011 01:27 am
Granted, the project is dependent on commercial crew and the BA2100 requires a super heavy. Still, I don't think this should be put in the same powerpoint category as say Skylon.


Correct. Anyone who puts something into orbit gets points.

On the other hand, I can't see the business case for Bigelow closing, but he has made a lot more $$ than I have, so one must be open minded about these things.


I recall Bigelow saying in an interview, something like ' sometimes you've got to have a little faith that things will work out'.  He didn't say his business case had closed, just that it was close enough for the 'faith' bit to be sufficient for him to continue to build and expand his company.
Guess that was also how he decided intially that he could spend half a billion dollars of his own money on this venture.  That's the key, it's his money, it's his call.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 06/09/2011 02:48 am
Cosmic Landlord (http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2011/0627/features-robert-bigelow-aerospace-real-estate-cosmic-landlord.html)

This article has a bunch of inaccuracies in the beginning, but overall is a good article concerning the business case for Bigelow.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Blackjax on 06/09/2011 02:48 pm
I just got done listening to this and following along with the slides.

http://hobbyspace.com/nucleus/?itemid=30055

They explicitly talk about propulsion of human modules.  Some of the pictures look suspiciously 'Bigelow Inflatable'.  Given that Bigelow is already working with Boeing on their CCDev entry, I have to wonder if there is also discussion of using their tech in a Bigelow Spaceship (as opposed to a Station).   It'd be pretty cool if he offered something like this:

http://cbboff.org/UCBoulderCourse/documents/LunarCyclerPaper.pdf

in addition to a LEO station.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: go4mars on 06/13/2011 03:07 am
Here's the presentation that went with that slideshow.

Robert Bigelow’s Keynote Address at the 2011 ISDC Governors’ Gala
http://moonandback.com/2011/06/02/robert-bigelows-keynote-address-at-the-2011-isdc-governors-gala/

Anyone know if it is on youtube? Thank.

When I click it I get this message: 

"The dreaded 404 error page!
I am sorry, but somehow, inspite of our best efforts, you managed to find a dead link.

Or perhaps you typed in a URL incorrectly.

Try searching for something, or going to the front page of the site"
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 06/13/2011 05:49 am
This one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=fb0z_zRHHBE
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: sprocket on 06/13/2011 02:03 pm
Dear God, that is awesome. I...words fail me.

That's just awesome.
It'll be awesome when and if it happens.

Oh? Do you know something I don't?

He knows Bigelow was talking about the future, and predictions are difficult, especially about the future. So the things Bigelow spoke of are not guaranteed to happen.

What part of that did you not know?

None. Glad to know I'm in the loop.

In other news, ice cream is delicious. ;)

Quote
Yeah, I've got powerpoint fatigue, so I'm no longer impressed by any fanciful powerpoint depictions of ambitious spacecraft. Can't take much more. I want to see all these spacecraft which we've been hearing about so much flying and doing their jobs. Just got to wait, I guess. Soon, Dawn will arrive at Vesta, Dragon and Cygnus will be at ISS, MSL and Juno will launch towards Mars and Jupiter, Orion will launch (unmanned, at first), James Webb will launch, commercial crew will launch, Bigelow will launch (maybe).

That said, there are lots of missions which have been going on for years and that are still interesting, like Cassini, MER Opportunity, MRO, and ISS.

Ah, fair enough. I thought you might have spotted some news of delays or something that I hadn't. Bigelow has two pathfinder modules in orbit, are buying up factory space and beginning fabrication, and appears to have closed the business case to their satisfaction, so I'm fairly confident of their success. Still, it's good to live in the present rather than eternally yearn for a distant future.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: yg1968 on 06/13/2011 02:10 pm
Here's the presentation that went with that slideshow.

Robert Bigelow’s Keynote Address at the 2011 ISDC Governors’ Gala
http://moonandback.com/2011/06/02/robert-bigelows-keynote-address-at-the-2011-isdc-governors-gala/

Anyone know if it is on youtube? Thank.

When I click it I get this message: 

"The dreaded 404 error page!
I am sorry, but somehow, inspite of our best efforts, you managed to find a dead link.

Or perhaps you typed in a URL incorrectly.

Try searching for something, or going to the front page of the site"

Try this link:
http://moonandback.com/2011/06/03/robert-bigelows-keynote-address-at-the-2011-isdc-governors-gala/
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 06/21/2011 12:50 am
Las Vegas Inventor's Ideas Take Shape (http://www.8newsnow.com/story/14916667/i-team)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 06/21/2011 01:50 am
Las Vegas Inventor's Ideas Take Shape (http://www.8newsnow.com/story/14916667/i-team)

"Bigelow Aerospace expects to add more than 1,000 jobs over the next three years once it finishes construction on a massive annex. And there may be spots open for recruits from local set designers and artists."

Really?

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: robertross on 06/21/2011 02:07 am
Las Vegas Inventor's Ideas Take Shape (http://www.8newsnow.com/story/14916667/i-team)

"Bigelow Aerospace expects to add more than 1,000 jobs over the next three years once it finishes construction on a massive annex. And there may be spots open for recruits from local set designers and artists."

Really?

I guess so. Interestng marketing strategy.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 06/21/2011 02:41 am
Las Vegas Inventor's Ideas Take Shape (http://www.8newsnow.com/story/14916667/i-team)

"Bigelow Aerospace expects to add more than 1,000 jobs over the next three years once it finishes construction on a massive annex. And there may be spots open for recruits from local set designers and artists."

Really?
Bigelow will have to get his electricians, plumbers and carpenters from somewhere.

This reminds me of the way British ship yards sold warships by sending models to the Admiralty.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 06/21/2011 02:16 pm
In the ISDC presentation Bigelow said they were condidering building the BA-2100 in Huntsville & transporting them to Florida by water.
How would the water transport be done?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Namechange User on 06/21/2011 02:23 pm
How would the water transport be done?

On a boat. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 06/21/2011 02:38 pm
How would the water transport be done?

On a boat. 
LOL :)
I've looked at the map around Huntsville & can't find a river route either to the coast or directly to Florida.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: kevin-rf on 06/21/2011 03:20 pm
I would assume the same route that the Shuttle ET's
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Space Junkie on 06/21/2011 03:23 pm
I've looked at the map around Huntsville & can't find a river route either to the coast or directly to Florida.

The Tennessee River is linked to the Gulf via the Tennessee-Tombigbee Waterway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee-Tombigbee_Waterway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee-Tombigbee_Waterway)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: M_Puckett on 06/21/2011 03:25 pm
ET's are made in Lousiana.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Cherokee43v6 on 06/21/2011 06:49 pm
In the ISDC presentation Bigelow said they were condidering building the BA-2100 in Huntsville & transporting them to Florida by water.
How would the water transport be done?

Hmmm... I'm wondering if the Marines have any surplus LCACs.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 06/21/2011 07:08 pm
"Really" was sarcasm.

As in, who is going to pay for all those new workers that Bigelow is saying might be hired? As long as there is no customer for large pressurized volumes in space, its all just hope.

Bigelow won't spend the big bucks on construction without a customer, and without transport to his station, there is no customer.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 06/21/2011 07:40 pm
... who is going to pay for all those new workers that Bigelow is saying might be hired? As long as there is no customer for large pressurized volumes in space, its all just hope.

1. Robert Bigelow will pay for them
2. He has customers who have signed MOU's pending development.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Prober on 06/21/2011 09:48 pm
... who is going to pay for all those new workers that Bigelow is saying might be hired? As long as there is no customer for large pressurized volumes in space, its all just hope.

1. Robert Bigelow will pay for them
2. He has customers who have signed MOU's pending development.

Think the issue is the launcher(s) not the customer.
 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 06/21/2011 09:57 pm
... who is going to pay for all those new workers that Bigelow is saying might be hired? As long as there is no customer for large pressurized volumes in space, its all just hope.

1. Robert Bigelow will pay for them
2. He has customers who have signed MOU's pending development.

Getting back to reality, Bigelow will not borrow the money to pay for construction of space platforms on the basis of MOUs. In the real world, such activity would be conducted on the basis of contracts, with payment tranches. Until such contracts are completed, nothing will happen with Bigelow, except for models, mockups and construction of buildings that may be sold later.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Diagoras on 06/22/2011 03:25 am
... who is going to pay for all those new workers that Bigelow is saying might be hired? As long as there is no customer for large pressurized volumes in space, its all just hope.

1. Robert Bigelow will pay for them
2. He has customers who have signed MOU's pending development.

Getting back to reality, Bigelow will not borrow the money to pay for construction of space platforms on the basis of MOUs. In the real world, such activity would be conducted on the basis of contracts, with payment tranches. Until such contracts are completed, nothing will happen with Bigelow, except for models, mockups and construction of buildings that may be sold later.


I believe Bigelow's current publicly stated plans involve launching Space Station Alpha and leasing the property on a dedicated timescale, rather than as soon as a lease is confirmed. Have you heard something else from somwhere?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 06/22/2011 03:49 am
... who is going to pay for all those new workers that Bigelow is saying might be hired? As long as there is no customer for large pressurized volumes in space, its all just hope.

1. Robert Bigelow will pay for them
2. He has customers who have signed MOU's pending development.

Getting back to reality, Bigelow will not borrow the money to pay for construction of space platforms on the basis of MOUs. In the real world, such activity would be conducted on the basis of contracts, with payment tranches. Until such contracts are completed, nothing will happen with Bigelow, except for models, mockups and construction of buildings that may be sold later.


I believe Bigelow's current publicly stated plans involve launching Space Station Alpha and leasing the property on a dedicated timescale, rather than as soon as a lease is confirmed. Have you heard something else from somwhere?

I believe that Bigelow has said repeatedly that his requirements for launching a platform are:

a) having affordable and reliable space transportation, and

b) a customer

Does anyone believe that Bigelow Aerospace is going to launch some space station without either of these in place?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Diagoras on 06/22/2011 03:51 am
Ah, thank you. When I have more time, I'll look for that statement and throw it up on this thread. It'll be useful to keep in mind when evaluating his approach.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 06/22/2011 04:16 am
Ah, thank you. When I have more time, I'll look for that statement and throw it up on this thread. It'll be useful to keep in mind when evaluating his approach.

Let's assume you never find that statement. Would you believe that Bigelow Aerospace would launch a space station in the absence of a customer?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 06/22/2011 08:14 am
Ah, thank you. When I have more time, I'll look for that statement and throw it up on this thread. It'll be useful to keep in mind when evaluating his approach.

Let's assume you never find that statement. Would you believe that Bigelow Aerospace would launch a space station in the absence of a customer?


That depends on what "absence of a customer" means.  Bigelow could launch a Sundancer and some of his people to commission it as a means of closing a deal.

Did CCDev1 man-rate the Atlas V?
Several man-rated spacecraft are being produced under CCDev2.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 06/22/2011 12:41 pm
Let's assume you never find that statement. Would you believe that Bigelow Aerospace would launch a space station in the absence of a customer?
Yes.
It's a classic chicken & egg problem. He's got a pocket full of MOU's that won't be executed until there's a destination, but you're saying he won't launch until one of em' signs a lease.
My money's on Bigelow launching a Sundancer, outfitting it with a couple of his own guy's & the spigot opens to a trickle.
That trickle "could" get him to the Lunar surface by 2020, as in one of his plans.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Diagoras on 06/22/2011 01:48 pm
Ah, thank you. When I have more time, I'll look for that statement and throw it up on this thread. It'll be useful to keep in mind when evaluating his approach.

Let's assume you never find that statement. Would you believe that Bigelow Aerospace would launch a space station in the absence of a customer?


I believe the below comments indicate my current cautious beliefs on that matter. I believe that, once NASA has finalized commercial crew, he could launch a Sundancer to display to his MOU partners that he can deliver the capability he promises.

But that's about as far as I expect him to go without a contract.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 06/22/2011 02:09 pm
... who is going to pay for all those new workers that Bigelow is saying might be hired? As long as there is no customer for large pressurized volumes in space, its all just hope.

1. Robert Bigelow will pay for them
2. He has customers who have signed MOU's pending development.

Getting back to reality, Bigelow will not borrow the money to pay for construction of space platforms on the basis of MOUs. In the real world, such activity would be conducted on the basis of contracts, with payment tranches. Until such contracts are completed, nothing will happen with Bigelow, except for models, mockups and construction of buildings that may be sold later.

I believe Bigelow's current publicly stated plans involve launching Space Station Alpha and leasing the property on a dedicated timescale, rather than as soon as a lease is confirmed. Have you heard something else from somewhere?

I believe that Bigelow has said repeatedly that his requirements for launching a platform are:

a) having affordable and reliable space transportation, and

b) a customer

Does anyone believe that Bigelow Aerospace is going to launch some space station without either of these in place?

Obviously a MOU by itself is not a contract, although it does constitute a "customer". But you are correct. He will not attempt to convert the MOU into a contract until there is reliable transportation in place for his "customer". But don't forget that Soyuz is still a candidate spacecraft. It is entirely feasible that an international customer could contract with Russia for transportation aboard a Soyuz to a Bigelow station. That would also work.

As to your question wrt launching a station before he has a paying customer, I believe that he will. He has already launched two (2) and I do believe that once he has a transportation mode available he will launch a 3rd to be outfitted and staffed by his own people. Chicken and egg resolved. Station exists. Now the question will become which one of the many MOU's that he has will be the first to convert to a contract?

Remember who he is. He built many a motel and made them available to customers long before he had any customers to use them. It's what he does. "Build it and they will come". At least he does have several MOU's that state a customer's intent to use the station once there is a station to go to.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: hop on 06/22/2011 05:09 pm
He has already launched two (2)
No, he launched a couple of non-habitable, non-dockable sub-scale mockups. He has neither built nor launched a station that humans could actually dock to and live in. The two pathfinders were within reach for him to launch on his own dime. It's not clear the same holds true of a functional space station.

It's also worth noting the pathfinders were launched before the economy tanked.
Quote
Remember who he is. He built many a motel and made them available to customers long before he had any customers to use them. It's what he does. "Build it and they will come".
The market for hotels, and the economics of the hotel business are well understood. Based on the characteristics of the location and past experience you can have a very good idea of whether a hotel will be profitable, and for someone in his position, being wrong once won't wipe out his fortune. None of this is applicable to space stations.

As an aside, I'm not trying to downplay accomplishments... flying two functional spacecraft is a great achievement for sure.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Cherokee43v6 on 06/22/2011 05:16 pm
There was an interview linked on here earlier where he pretty much said he was using his Budget Hotel model, in that he was creating a space that others would make use of.  His intent being to own all of the modules and lease space on them for discrete blocks of time.  This implies that he would launch when he was satisfied things were ready, meaning access not necessarily customers.  In that same article, I recall, was a mention that he was willing to spend up to another $500million of his own personal fortune to achieve his goals.  That ain't chump-change.

Currently, the long pole in his development plans appears to be the Boeing CST-100.  Since Bigelow has partnered with Boeing on its development (at least some of the Boeing team is apparently working out of the Bigelow factory), it will be when he is satisfied that the transportation infrastructure exists that he begins his construction.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 06/23/2011 03:06 am
For those who are not well versed in the business world, if an MOU is non-binding, it is not worth the paper it is written on. If it is binding, its not an MOU.

Please do not try to create the impression that these publicly announced MOUs have any value.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Eric Hedman on 06/23/2011 03:34 am
For those who are not well versed in the business world, if an MOU is non-binding, it is not worth the paper it is written on. If it is binding, its not an MOU.

Please do not try to create the impression that these publicly announced MOUs have any value.
I disagree with you that they don't have value.  They are used in the investment world to confirm to potential investors that potential real customers have an interest in a product offered.  Any investor worth his salt knows that an MOU is not a binding contract.  They do understand what they mean.  If they weren't worth the paper they are written on, a savvy businessman like Robert Bigelow wouldn't waste his time getting them.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 06/23/2011 02:31 pm
For those who are not well versed in the business world, if an MOU is non-binding, it is not worth the paper it is written on. If it is binding, its not an MOU.

Please do not try to create the impression that these publicly announced MOUs have any value.

Commercial MOU's are an investment tool that essentially declares that if a "developer" were to make a certain product or service available, that the person/company signing the MOU would potentially be interested in purchasing that product or service. What it does is confirm to a potential investor that there likely is a market for that product or service and that the product or service may be worth the investor's time to investigate and possibly the investor's money as well. It is a tool, not a contract.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 06/23/2011 03:36 pm
For those who are not well versed in the business world, if an MOU is non-binding, it is not worth the paper it is written on. If it is binding, its not an MOU.

Please do not try to create the impression that these publicly announced MOUs have any value.
I disagree with you that they don't have value.  They are used in the investment world to confirm to potential investors that potential real customers have an interest in a product offered.  Any investor worth his salt knows that an MOU is not a binding contract.  They do understand what they mean.  If they weren't worth the paper they are written on, a savvy businessman like Robert Bigelow wouldn't waste his time getting them.

Any ideas on what investors Mr. Bigelow would use these MOUs for?

If there are no investors, what is the purpose of the MOUs?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 06/23/2011 03:37 pm
For those who are not well versed in the business world, if an MOU is non-binding, it is not worth the paper it is written on. If it is binding, its not an MOU.

Please do not try to create the impression that these publicly announced MOUs have any value.

Commercial MOU's are an investment tool that essentially declares that if a "developer" were to make a certain product or service available, that the person/company signing the MOU would potentially be interested in purchasing that product or service. What it does is confirm to a potential investor that there likely is a market for that product or service and that the product or service may be worth the investor's time to investigate and possibly the investor's money as well. It is a tool, not a contract.

In the case of Bigelow Aerospace, there are no investors in the works, so the theory above is not really relevant to this business case.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 06/23/2011 05:32 pm

In the case of Bigelow Aerospace, there are no investors in the works, so the theory above is not really relevant to this business case.


I would say that Bigelow himself is an investor. But the MOU are also useful for contractors and suppliers. You can show them a bunch of MOU, and that might convince them to invest in some key technology that you need to procure. An MOU can also convince other clients to declare their interest. Be it for competitive purposes (say, Country A doesn't want to feel behind Country B), or for the viability of the business model.
Bigelow was putting a price per month visit on it's orbital stations. If you don't believe he'll at least have a 20% occupancy, you wouldn't take him seriously. If he tells you to just sign the MOU, and then he can show he has enough MOUs to have a 50% occupancy, you might believe him enough to actually sign something binding.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Eric Hedman on 06/23/2011 06:23 pm
For those who are not well versed in the business world, if an MOU is non-binding, it is not worth the paper it is written on. If it is binding, its not an MOU.

Please do not try to create the impression that these publicly announced MOUs have any value.
I disagree with you that they don't have value.  They are used in the investment world to confirm to potential investors that potential real customers have an interest in a product offered.  Any investor worth his salt knows that an MOU is not a binding contract.  They do understand what they mean.  If they weren't worth the paper they are written on, a savvy businessman like Robert Bigelow wouldn't waste his time getting them.

Any ideas on what investors Mr. Bigelow would use these MOUs for?

If there are no investors, what is the purpose of the MOUs?

They might be used to build the confidence of partners such as Boeing that he might have a real case to drive business ferrying people on the CST-100 capsule and for ULA that he really could be ordering Atlas V launches.  Boeing and ULA might want to see these MOUs before they invest time and money in seeing how they can work with Bigelow.  Also just because he doesn't have investors now doesn't mean he isn't planning for the possibility in the future.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Blackjax on 06/23/2011 07:39 pm
They might be used to build the confidence of partners such as Boeing that he might have a real case to drive business ferrying people on the CST-100 capsule and for ULA that he really could be ordering Atlas V launches.  Boeing and ULA might want to see these MOUs before they invest time and money in seeing how they can work with Bigelow. 

I think this hits the nail on the head because his hands are truly tied until he has multiple redundant transport & resupply options to his station(s).  He can't build a business with the risk of a single point of failure looming over it all the time.  He'd be taking a big risk personally for his own company and he might find it a difficult sell to potential clients who are not going to miss the downsides of having a single transport provider.  That provider might have a launch failure and go offline for a while, they might decide to leave the business for their own reasons, they might be unable to scale properly to meet demand, or they might opt to exercise monopoly power.

He knows that SpaceX is already internally motivated to provide transport so he doesn't spend much time on them.  His energy and effort is spent trying to persuade a second option (Boeing) to enter the market as well.  The MOUs help to tell Boeing that there is more of a market than 'just a few ultra rich tourists' as many are so fond of claiming.

Another angle is that they may also help get him taken seriously by other sovereign clients who might not have even talked to him prior to that.  They may apply the logic "If this guy is taken seriously enough for other countries to work out MOUs with him, perhaps we should discuss possibilities with him too."   Given that this type of service has never been done before by a private entity, overcoming the giggle factor is one of the major challenges for the sales process.  Because the sales cycle and follow on development & launch of the payloads have a pretty long lead time in this industry, he can't wait for the giggle factor to die down when stations go aloft, he needs to do whatever he can now to reduce it and develop the market.  If he fails at this and the clients sign post launch, he may find himself with a station that is empty for a year or three waiting for the clients he signed to get up there.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 06/24/2011 05:44 am
Within the sovereign clients the science ministries can take the MOU to the finance ministries to get the money to lease the spacestation and launch.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 07/09/2011 01:59 am
There's a rather interesting entry on this (http://www.satelliteonthenet.co.uk/index.php/2014) website.

Date-???     
Sundancer     
Falcon IX         
Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, Florida, USA
inflatable space station module
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: pathfinder_01 on 07/09/2011 04:11 am
There's a rather interesting entry on this (http://www.satelliteonthenet.co.uk/index.php/2014) website.

Date-???     
Sundancer     
Falcon IX         
Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, Florida, USA
inflatable space station module

Not surprising he has admited that he plans to launch in 2014 and that he plans to use Space X for it.

What I would like to see is Space X putting him on the rouster.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Diagoras on 07/09/2011 04:14 am
There's a rather interesting entry on this (http://www.satelliteonthenet.co.uk/index.php/2014) website.

Date-???     
Sundancer     
Falcon IX         
Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, Florida, USA
inflatable space station module

Not surprising he has admited that he plans to launch in 2014 and that he plans to use Space X for it.

What I would like to see is Space X putting him on the rouster.

It is on the roster.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Cherokee43v6 on 07/09/2011 09:43 pm
There's a rather interesting entry on this (http://www.satelliteonthenet.co.uk/index.php/2014) website.

Date-???     
Sundancer     
Falcon IX         
Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, Florida, USA
inflatable space station module

Not surprising he has admited that he plans to launch in 2014 and that he plans to use Space X for it.

What I would like to see is Space X putting him on the rouster.

It has been on their list for at least two years...

http://www.spacex.com/launch_manifest.php

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 07/12/2011 02:49 pm
The exterior of the factory looks completed. I doubt if we'll see more interior pictures, as they're probably setting up the production lines now.

(http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/images/BigelowSign3.jpg)

They have a new animation on the website's main page. It shows a BA 330 launching on an Atlas V, then docking with a CST-100.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 07/12/2011 05:18 pm
There is no question that Bigelow Aerospace has demonstrated a capacity to build new buildings, subscale flight models and full scale mockups.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 07/12/2011 07:27 pm
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/index.php

Quote
Bigelow Aerospace Expediting BA 330 Development

Due to customer demand and progress in commercial crew transportation, Bigelow Aerospace has moved directly to BA 330 development. As the name indicates, the BA 330 will provide roughly 330 cubic meters of usable volume and can support a crew of up to six. The BA 330 can function as an independent space station, or several BA 330s can be combined to support an even larger orbital complex.  "It's extremely exciting to proceed with the actual construction of BA 330s," said Robert T. Bigelow, President and founder of Bigelow Aerospace,  "This robust habitat will serve as the backbone for a new, dynamic era of commercial human spaceflight. The BA 330 will support a wide variety of utilization and exploration missions both in Low Earth Orbit and beyond. "
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 07/12/2011 07:34 pm
Could they berth a BA330 to the ISS?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: pathfinder_01 on 07/12/2011 08:04 pm
I think they are pulling our legs here. Don’t get me wrong, I think this is a good plan, but I always wondered why would they try to build a space station as big as the one they planned on the first attempt. I think that a six person station is just fine for now and if needed then they grow or build a new one.  Only problem is I doubt Falcon 9 can launch this thing and the 2014 date is likely money wasted(unless they use it to book a dragon flight or to lift the docking node).
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 07/12/2011 08:19 pm
I think they are pulling our legs here. Don’t get me wrong, I think this is a good plan, but I always wondered why would they try to build a space station as big as the one they planned on the first attempt. I think that a six person station is just fine for now and if needed then they grow or build a new one.  Only problem is I doubt Falcon 9 can launch this thing and the 2014 date is likely money wasted(unless they use it to book a dragon flight or to lift the docking node).
The video shows an Atlas 551. A Falcon Heavy should have more than enough capability, but currently lacks the necessary fairing. Bigelow has stated that expects to have at least two providers. Being able to launch on bot Atlas 551 and Falcon Heavy should be the first milestone. Now he "just" needs two crew suppliers. I'm assuming that the Soyuz could be one. Whoever wins the CCDev3 would probably be the second.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 07/12/2011 08:51 pm
Doesn't Atlas 551 mean a 5 meter fairing?

Falcon Heavy's standard fairing is listed as 5.2 meters.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 07/12/2011 08:53 pm
Falcon Heavy's fairing is not the issue - the default fairing is the same diameter as the Atlas's in the animation. Vandenberg, however, could be a problem; what's the lowest-inclination prograde orbit that can be reached safely from Vandenberg? If it's not low enough, Bigelow couldn't use FH until the Florida pad is modified to support it.

Sundancer has disappeared from their evolution profile.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 07/12/2011 10:23 pm

Sundancer has disappeared from their evolution profile.
It sure has.
I guess that simplifies their assembly line. Now they're making only Propulsion/Docking Nodes & BA-330's.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Comga on 07/12/2011 11:30 pm
There's a rather interesting entry on this (http://www.satelliteonthenet.co.uk/index.php/2014) website.

Date-???     
Sundancer     
Falcon IX         
Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, Florida, USA
inflatable space station module

Not surprising he has admited that he plans to launch in 2014 and that he plans to use Space X for it.

What I would like to see is Space X putting him on the rouster.

It has been on their list for at least two years...

http://www.spacex.com/launch_manifest.php

Bigelow was on the July 2004 SpaceX manifest in July of 2004 for a launch on a Falcon V in the fourth quarter of 2005.  ;-)
It has remained on the list with changing rockets and launch dates ever since. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 07/12/2011 11:57 pm

Sundancer has disappeared from their evolution profile.
It sure has.
I guess that simplifies their assembly line. Now they're making only Propulsion/Docking Nodes & BA-330's.

OR it might mean there's now an open line for something bigger ;)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 07/13/2011 12:08 am
Doesn't Atlas 551 mean a 5 meter fairing?

Falcon Heavy's standard fairing is listed as 5.2 meters.

It's not the width the problem but the length. The total size of the BA330 is 13.7m, and the inner length of the FH fairing is 13.9, but it's tapered. So they would need to stretch it a bit. And SpaceX hasn't actually demonstrated the fairing (look at Orbital). So they would need to do some mods to the Fairing to actually launch. Probably as little as adding 1m. But still a modification on an undemonstrated part.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 07/13/2011 12:17 am

Sundancer has disappeared from their evolution profile.
It sure has.
I guess that simplifies their assembly line. Now they're making only Propulsion/Docking Nodes & BA-330's.

OR it might mean there's now an open line for something bigger ;)
I don't think do Doc.
I suspect the Sundancer & BA-330 were slated to be built on the same assembly line with modifications for the shorter length of the Sundancer. Getting rid of Sundancer helps KISS.
As much as I'd like to see the BA-2100 in construction ASAP I don't see them doing it in Vegas. There's just no convenient way to get it to a launch site from there. It's just too big.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 07/13/2011 12:28 am

Sundancer has disappeared from their evolution profile.
It sure has.
I guess that simplifies their assembly line. Now they're making only Propulsion/Docking Nodes & BA-330's.

OR it might mean there's now an open line for something bigger ;)
I don't think do Doc.
I suspect the Sundancer & BA-330 were slated to be built on the same assembly line with modifications for the shorter length of the Sundancer. Getting rid of Sundancer helps KISS.
As much as I'd like to see the BA-2100 in construction ASAP I don't see them doing it in Vegas. There's just no convenient way to get it to a launch site from there. It's just too big.

I agree, but Bigelow clearly stated the new factory had three separate assembly lines. I'm at a loss as to what the third one is.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: pathfinder_01 on 07/13/2011 01:37 am

I agree, but Bigelow clearly stated the new factory had three separate assembly lines. I'm at a loss as to what the third one is.

Probably just space to grow into atm.... It could also function if NASA ever buys his product as a hab module or something.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 07/13/2011 01:37 am
I agree, but Bigelow clearly stated the new factory had three separate assembly lines. I'm at a loss as to what the third one is.
At least twice in February Bigelow said there would be 3 spacecraft on 3 assembly lines. Then at the ISDC Dinner in May he made no mention of 3 lines or the Sundancer.
It looks like he just changes plans.
When you're the Boss, you can do that.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 07/15/2011 07:31 pm
I see a few congigirations according to need at the time - presuming the lines are generic and can be used for any product -

2 habs and 1 propulsion bus/hub unit
2 prop/hubs, of whatever size (they've mentioned lg & sm) & 1 hab
3 habs
3 hubs
Etc.

As to the Bigelow business case -

I see a lot of the same OldSpace v. NewSpace difference in thinking we've seen in the SpaceX threads, and with the exception of schedule slips or the usual new-tech problems NewSpace has been doing pretty good in spite of numerous "they can't", "they won't", "there's no business case" negativistic posts.

Also, outside the box entrepreneurs don't always make sense to old-school linear business people. This doesn't make their way of doing things wrong, just different. He has a plan, and he's obviously making sense to others in the industry. He also has a (very likely) disruptive product that could be adapted to numerous missions.

Bottom line is that Mr. Bigelow built a $billion business, something I dare say no one else here has done, so give him the credit and respect that deserves. A man with money, a plan, and a laser beam focus on that plan is not to be casually dismissed.

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 07/16/2011 01:53 am

Bottom line is that Mr. Bigelow built a $billion business, something I dare say no one else here has done, so give him the credit and respect that deserves. A man with money, a plan, and a laser beam focus on that plan is not to be casually dismissed.



I am not dismissing Bigelow, I am simply saying that until a customer willing to pay commercial terms is on the books, its going to be building buildings, subscale models, and full scale mockups for the indefinite future.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: go4mars on 07/16/2011 04:17 am
I am not dismissing Bigelow, I am simply saying that until a customer willing to pay commercial terms is on the books, its going to be building buildings, subscale models, and full scale mockups for the indefinite future.

Do you think Bigelow had his entire 1st year of customers lined up before he built and opened budget suites?  Not everyone needs 100% assurances.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: hop on 07/16/2011 04:47 am
Do you think Bigelow had his entire 1st year of customers lined up before he built and opened budget suites?  Not everyone needs 100% assurances.
Do you think the market for hotel rooms was not well established when Bigelow got into the business ?

I agree with Danderman, I don't see Bigelow launching a crew capable station until he has some pretty solid customers. Space stations aren't just expensive to build and launch, they are expensive to operate too.

IMO, he won't get those solid customers until the transportation problem is solved. That in turn depends on some US crew capability, because even if Bigelow was willing to go against his preference and go with the Russians, they won't have capacity while they are the sole transport for ISS.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: SpacemanInSPACE on 07/16/2011 04:58 am
I really think its important to get a bigelow module up onto the ISS for testing. Not only using the ISS for its intended utilization, the Bigelow module would provide demonstrations to foreign countries to prove that Bigelow's modules do work.

There are literally so many positive outlooks to this proposition, I hope it comes through.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Sparky on 07/16/2011 05:19 am

IMO, he won't get those solid customers until the transportation problem is solved. That in turn depends on some US crew capability, because even if Bigelow was willing to go against his preference and go with the Russians, they won't have capacity while they are the sole transport for ISS.

Dumb idea here, but I'll throw it out there:
If Commercial Crew fails to take off as hoped, do you think he might go with China? Right now they have the only human rated Orbital vehicle outside of the US and Russia. China plans to launch its own station, but if they could save money and resources by launching Bigelow modules instead (or at least by augmenting their homegrown station with them) then why not?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: hop on 07/16/2011 06:07 am
China plans to launch its own station, but if they could save money and resources by launching Bigelow modules instead (or at least by augmenting their homegrown station with them) then why not?
As far as I can tell, the whole reason they are in space is to build up their own technical capabilities and prove that they are a first class world power. It's not as if a space station confers some big economic or strategic value.

If that is correct, they would only be interested in buying modules as a way of acquiring the technology for domestic production, as they did with Soyuz. I don't see US regulators going for that.

As for providing transport service: They have only flown 3 crewed flights total, over a period of 8 years. There's no indication that they are ready to provide transportation service to a 3rd party in the way the Russians are, or that they have extra capacity beyond their own needs.

Even if they were in a position to provide transport, the engineering and bureaucratic challenges on both sides would be considerable.

Bottom line, I think Chinese involvement with Bigelow is extremely unlikely.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: JSz on 07/16/2011 01:36 pm
Anybody knows about current status of Bigelow Expandable Activity Module that is prepared fo ISS? We are waiting for NASA decision for adding the module, however it was promised that the decision would be made in the spring (2011).
Is the concept still on?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jim on 07/16/2011 02:36 pm
Anybody knows about current status of Bigelow Expandable Activity Module that is prepared fo ISS? We are waiting for NASA decision for adding the module, however it was promised that the decision would be made in the spring (2011).
Is the concept still on?

It is only an idea.  Nothing has gone forward.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: JSz on 07/16/2011 06:38 pm
Anybody knows about current status of Bigelow Expandable Activity Module that is prepared fo ISS? We are waiting for NASA decision for adding the module, however it was promised that the decision would be made in the spring (2011).
Is the concept still on?

It is only an idea.  Nothing has gone forward.

I suppose it is not only an idea, but negotiations.
E.g. 8NewsNow.com said: "Garver confirmed that negotiations are underway to add one of the Bigelow modules to the ISS. A deal could be finalized within three months and the module could be launched in about two years." (link (http://www.8newsnow.com/story/13974465/nasa-rep-visits-bigelow-aerospace?redirected=true)). This news is from February.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jim on 07/16/2011 06:45 pm
No, it is still an "idea".  There is no budget for it and no firm plans. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Prober on 07/16/2011 08:35 pm
No, it is still an "idea".  There is no budget for it and no firm plans. 

hmmm, looks like more games.  It was reported in all the papers and news media as a "done" deal only the contract needed to be signed.
 
 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: hop on 07/16/2011 09:38 pm
From the Commercial Space: No Bucks, No Buck Rogers! thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=25891.msg776388#msg776388

Does Bigelow has any hotel business in India? How about a tax break in India in exchange for the ISS module? India wouldn't have to actually put money, might get an investment, so in overall trade balance it would actually get dollars, and Bigelow might find that the hotel chains pays the module.
That's sounds like something which would (rightly) fall foul of anti-corruption laws on both sides.

India, like China, is not going to be interested in buying black boxes. They are only going to spend a lot of money if they actually get to domesticate the technology.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 07/16/2011 10:38 pm
From the Commercial Space: No Bucks, No Buck Rogers! thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=25891.msg776388#msg776388

Does Bigelow has any hotel business in India? How about a tax break in India in exchange for the ISS module? India wouldn't have to actually put money, might get an investment, so in overall trade balance it would actually get dollars, and Bigelow might find that the hotel chains pays the module.
That's sounds like something which would (rightly) fall foul of anti-corruption laws on both sides.

India, like China, is not going to be interested in buying black boxes. They are only going to spend a lot of money if they actually get to domesticate the technology.
I don't see what's corrupt on that. Tax breaks are very normal incentives. And corruption means something done against the fiduciary obligations of an official.
Regarding the lack of domestic technology, it might include the Indians selling some parts of the Bigelow. And, they would get all the training and experience on the ISS ops.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: hop on 07/17/2011 01:33 am
I don't see what's corrupt on that. Tax breaks are very normal incentives. And corruption means something done against the fiduciary obligations of an official.
AFAIK Bigelow Suites and Bigelow Aerospace are different companies, which just happen to be founded and owned by the same individual. So giving one a tax break to one in return for favorable terms from the other would be highly irregular at best.

Even if that isn't corrupt in the strictest sense, I can't imagine it would meet Indian government procurement standards.

Beyond that, you don't think the Indian hotel industry is going to cry foul when a foreign competitor gets hundreds of millions in tax breaks ? Or that other potential space station module providers won't complain to their governments or the WTO ?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 07/17/2011 03:25 am
Robert Bigelow is sole owner of 18 Budget Suite's America hotels in 3 states, 14,000 apartment units in 5 states, Bigelow Development Corporation (a construction Co.) & then all his Space related activities.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Patchouli on 07/17/2011 03:43 am

Sundancer has disappeared from their evolution profile.
It sure has.
I guess that simplifies their assembly line. Now they're making only Propulsion/Docking Nodes & BA-330's.

Kinda a shame they discontinued Sundancer as it would be good for BEO missions.

Though even a BA330 really is not that much mass to bring along on an asteroid mission it's not much heavier then a Russian DOS module.

A Centaur probably could push one though TLI.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 07/17/2011 12:49 pm

Kinda a shame they discontinued Sundancer as it would be good for BEO missions.

Though even a BA330 really is not that much mass to bring along on an asteroid mission it's not much heavier then a Russian DOS module.

A Centaur probably could push one though TLI.
I'll bet everybody & his brother with a manned BEO mission plan is looking at EOR with whatever ship they've got & a BA-330.
I'll bet further that somebody is looking at the feasability of launching the whole kit & kaboodle with a FH.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Chandonn on 07/17/2011 01:40 pm

Sundancer has disappeared from their evolution profile.
It sure has.
I guess that simplifies their assembly line. Now they're making only Propulsion/Docking Nodes & BA-330's.

Kinda a shame they discontinued Sundancer as it would be good for BEO missions.

Now, before we get ahead of ourselves, has anybody OFFICIALLY said that Sundancer is dead?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 07/17/2011 01:51 pm

Now, before we get ahead of ourselves, has anybody OFFICIALLY said that Sundancer is dead?
No, to my knowledge all we have is anecdotal evidence.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 07/17/2011 04:18 pm

Sundancer has disappeared from their evolution profile.
It sure has.
I guess that simplifies their assembly line. Now they're making only Propulsion/Docking Nodes & BA-330's.

Kinda a shame they discontinued Sundancer as it would be good for BEO missions.

Now, before we get ahead of ourselves, has anybody OFFICIALLY said that Sundancer is dead?

Commercial cancellations, being bad news, are rarely included in press releases.

Bigelow Aerospace has removed the Sundancer from the list of spacestation types on its website entitled "Station Development".

The webpage says
Quote
Bigelow Aerospace Expediting BA 330 Development

Due to customer demand and progress in commercial crew transportation, Bigelow Aerospace has moved directly to BA 330 development. As the name indicates, the BA 330 will provide roughly 330 cubic meters of usable volume and can support a crew of up to six. The BA 330 can function as an independent space station, or several BA 330s can be combined to support an even larger orbital complex.  "It's extremely exciting to proceed with the actual construction of BA 330s," said Robert T. Bigelow, President and founder of Bigelow Aerospace,  "This robust habitat will serve as the backbone for a new, dynamic era of commercial human spaceflight. The BA 330 will support a wide variety of utilization and exploration missions both in Low Earth Orbit and beyond. "
My italics.

From which we can conclude that the Sundancer development got bypassed.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 07/17/2011 04:21 pm
Pretty strong anecdotal evidence though; imagery removed, as well as references in station development.

Last time they did this Galaxy dropped out of mention in favor of manned units. Now it seems their prospective customers are saying 'bigger is better.' 

Also; I can't see such large changes in 'the plan' if MOU's are the only paper involved. Methinks there is more, just unannounced.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: marsavian on 07/17/2011 04:38 pm
At 20-23mT an EELV/Falcon Heavy could lift one. Although it would require an SLS EDS to push a 3 node lunar version to the Moon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BA_330
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 07/18/2011 11:30 am
At 20-23mT an EELV/Falcon Heavy could lift one. Although it would require an SLS EDS to push a 3 node lunar version to the Moon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BA_330
I don't know how space limited in FH fairing would it be. But They can use water as extra radiation protection. So if SpaceX had a bigger fairing, they could double or more the BA330 rad protection.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: oldAtlas_Eguy on 07/18/2011 04:42 pm
I don't know how space limited in FH fairing would it be.

I took a look at the proposed faring and it is too short by ~4m. The diameter is not a problem. The BA330 is 13.7m long. The current proposed faring (the F9 developed one) will only fit at best a little over 10m of the diameter of the BA330 in stowed configuration. A 4 or 5 m longer faring is needed for the FH to accommodate taller payloads. Total faring length of 19 or 20m instead of the 13.9 F9 length.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 07/18/2011 05:24 pm
Also; I can't see such large changes in 'the plan' if MOU's are the only paper involved. Methinks there is more, just unannounced.

and ponies, too!

 ;D
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: oldAtlas_Eguy on 07/18/2011 05:34 pm
An additional thought on FH fairings is that if the faring was increased to a total length of 34m two BA330 or a BA330 and propulsion module could be launched in the same FH launch. To make a complete 3 BA330 and 1 propulsion module station would take either 4 FH with a shorter fairing at a minimum of $85M each in launch costs or 2 FH with the longer fairing in which the launch cost for each module would be equivalent to $65M, a total station project savings of $80M.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 07/18/2011 05:37 pm
I don't know how space limited in FH fairing would it be.

I took a look at the proposed faring and it is too short by ~4m. The diameter is not a problem. The BA330 is 13.7m long. The current proposed faring (the F9 developed one) will only fit at best a little over 10m of the diameter of the BA330 in stowed configuration. A 4 or 5 m longer faring is needed for the FH to accommodate taller payloads. Total faring length of 19 or 20m instead of the 13.9 F9 length.


Both Altas V and Delta IV long 5m fairing have something like 12m before they tape in. I guess part of getting a competing vehicle for EELV would be to add a "long" fairing. And yer, it would need to be some 4m longer. I still wonder if they could go with a 7m fairing. Atlas says it has been designed with a 7.2m fairing (though it would need some minor modifications to a stock vehicle/pad). If both Falcon Heavy and Atlas V had a 7m fairing, it's quite probably that DOD and/or NASA could use it.
For Bigelow it could mean to launch with better radiation protection, for example.
Regarding the Russian spoke system, I've wondered if they didn't developed a iLIDS compatible dock system, because they are waiting for a "private" order to actually pay for such development. May be if CCdev isn't successful, they will ask for Bigelow to pay for (part of) the development of their own indigenous version. It would also allow them to send their capsules to the US side of the ISS.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: oldAtlas_Eguy on 07/18/2011 07:48 pm
I don't know how space limited in FH fairing would it be.

I took a look at the proposed faring and it is too short by ~4m. The diameter is not a problem. The BA330 is 13.7m long. The current proposed faring (the F9 developed one) will only fit at best a little over 10m of the diameter of the BA330 in stowed configuration. A 4 or 5 m longer faring is needed for the FH to accommodate taller payloads. Total faring length of 19 or 20m instead of the 13.9 F9 length.


Both Altas V and Delta IV long 5m fairing have something like 12m before they tape in. I guess part of getting a competing vehicle for EELV would be to add a "long" fairing. And yer, it would need to be some 4m longer. I still wonder if they could go with a 7m fairing. Atlas says it has been designed with a 7.2m fairing (though it would need some minor modifications to a stock vehicle/pad). If both Falcon Heavy and Atlas V had a 7m fairing, it's quite probably that DOD and/or NASA could use it.
For Bigelow it could mean to launch with better radiation protection, for example.
Regarding the Russian spoke system, I've wondered if they didn't developed a iLIDS compatible dock system, because they are waiting for a "private" order to actually pay for such development. May be if CCdev isn't successful, they will ask for Bigelow to pay for (part of) the development of their own indigenous version. It would also allow them to send their capsules to the US side of the ISS.

Before using Soyuz they would look seriously at using the MPCV. If per person rate is equal or less than Soyuz plus the distributed cost of the docking system, Bigelow would probably use the MPCV. Increasing the MPCV flight rate would lower its per seat cost as well. Another item is the flight rate of Soyuz would at least have to double or more to support a Bigelow station, something Soyuz may not be able to support.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 07/18/2011 08:02 pm
A longer faring increases the load that bends the rocket [?] & decreases the weight it can put into orbit.
You can't just make the faring longer & longer without losing mass too.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 07/18/2011 08:51 pm
The FH seems to be volume limited, not weight limited. If a 7mx20m fairing would reduce it's payload to 35tn (34% less!!!), it would still be a very useful LV and more powerful than anything available (for LEO). Again, in those sizes you could get telescope with four times the light gathering capabilities of the Hubble, and for a fraction of the JWST.
For Bigelow it would allow some serious radiation protection, plus a reduced propulsion module. They show their BA330 launching on an Atlas V 551. That's 18tn to LEO. So you'd have 17tn for other uses.
Bigelow said that they could double the radiation protection of the BA2100 with 5tn of water. The BA2100 has about 3.5 times the surface of the BA330. So it could use either 1.5tn for radiation, or a whopping 7tn of water, for something like four to six times the radiation protection of the ISS. And still have 10tn of supplies or equipment inside the station.
Alternately, if they can design a "stubby" propulsion module, it might fit a BA330 and a stubby propulsion module in one launch.
I know that the FH is kind of extremely thin. And a wider fairing would increase the drag and aerodynamic load. Which is particularly bad for an engine that can't throttle. But I've slashed the performance by a third.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: go4mars on 07/18/2011 09:09 pm
I know that the FH is kind of extremely thin. And a wider fairing would increase the drag and aerodynamic load. Which is particularly bad for an engine that can't throttle. But I've slashed the performance by a third.

We don't yet know what the diameter of the raptor stage will be.  If it is 6 meters for example, then a 10 meter payload on top of raptor might be possible.  Without side cores it would resemble a male-derived gamete. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: jongoff on 07/19/2011 03:09 am
What you all have inferred from the website would be correct.  Sundancer designs have been shelved.

It's a pity.  I really liked Sundancer.  If they could really pull it off with the specs they were shooting for (size, capacity, duration, mass), it would've been sweet.

~Jon
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 07/19/2011 12:35 pm
Does anyone have, or know where to find, a dimensioned drawing of any of the Bigelow stations?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Chris-A on 07/19/2011 04:00 pm
Does anyone have, or know where to find, a dimensioned drawing of any of the Bigelow stations?

Chuck, I haven't seen any rough drawings on the Internet at all. Not even a module, just the basic PR images we see all the time.

Hard to find item.

EDIT: I'm doing some analysis from a presentation from ISDC.
http://images.spaceref.com/news/2011/bigelow.chrtz.isdc.pdf
I'm using a drafting program to create a rough diagram of the BA330.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 07/19/2011 08:44 pm
Does anyone have, or know where to find, a dimensioned drawing of any of the Bigelow stations?

Chuck, I haven't seen any rough drawings on the Internet at all. Not even a module, just the basic PR images we see all the time.

Hard to find item.

EDIT: I'm doing some analysis from a presentation from ISDC.
http://images.spaceref.com/news/2011/bigelow.chrtz.isdc.pdf
I'm using a drafting program to create a rough diagram of the BA330.

Thanks Chris.
I hope you'll share them when they're finished :)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: FinalFrontier on 07/19/2011 08:50 pm
A longer faring increases the load that bends the rocket [?] & decreases the weight it can put into orbit.
You can't just make the faring longer & longer without losing mass too.

There should be mass to spare here. Whats the mass of the module again?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 07/19/2011 08:53 pm
I've seen 20-23 MT for BA-330.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Chris-A on 07/19/2011 09:48 pm
Here is the first draft. I will have more later.
Edit: Added metric dimensions.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 07/19/2011 10:32 pm
Nice!
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 07/20/2011 12:05 am
A longer faring increases the load that bends the rocket [?] & decreases the weight it can put into orbit.
You can't just make the faring longer & longer without losing mass too.

There should be mass to spare here. Whats the mass of the module again?
I was responding to OldAtlasEGuy when he was talking about launching 2 BA-330's stacked into a 5 x 34 meter, or so, long faring.
Just the BA-330's would be 46 metric tons. Then there'd be all the stuff needed to keep them together in that configuration after they were in orbit.
I'm not an engineer, but even I can say with certainty, that ain't gonna happen with an FH.
If the Propulsion Buss/Docking Node is considerably lighter & in the 10 meter long range, I can see a faring of the necessary length lifting that weight/length configuration.
In fact, Bigelow may have that in mind already.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Rocket Science on 07/20/2011 12:16 am
Has anyone ever considered spinning up the module to create artificial gravity for long term missions? Just a thought...
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 07/20/2011 12:22 am
Has anyone ever considered spinning up the module to create artificial gravity for long term missions? Just a thought...

I asked that very question & got a rather cryptic answer.
Reading between the lines, I'd say they've looked at it but have no actual plans to implement it at this time.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: SpacexULA on 07/20/2011 12:23 am
Has anyone ever considered spinning up the module to create artificial gravity for long term missions? Just a thought...

Even the largest module he has talked about would spin you brain. Now you might be able to use a BA-330 to test gravity effects on mice though.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 07/20/2011 12:26 am
Has anyone ever considered spinning up the module to create artificial gravity for long term missions? Just a thought...

Even the largest module he has talked about would spin you brain. Now you might be able to use a BA-330 to test gravity effects on mice though.
In the correct configuration, spinning 2 of them on either end of a long tether would work just fine.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Rocket Science on 07/20/2011 12:28 am
Has anyone ever considered spinning up the module to create artificial gravity for long term missions? Just a thought...

Even the largest module he has talked about would spin you brain. Now you might be able to use a BA-330 to test gravity effects on mice though.
Hmmm... spin my brain... I like that! ;)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Rocket Science on 07/20/2011 12:29 am
Has anyone ever considered spinning up the module to create artificial gravity for long term missions? Just a thought...

Even the largest module he has talked about would spin you brain. Now you might be able to use a BA-330 to test gravity effects on mice though.
In the correct configuration, spinning 2 of them on either end of a long tether would work just fine.
I was thinking of spinning along the axis...
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 07/20/2011 12:40 am
Has anyone ever considered spinning up the module to create artificial gravity for long term missions? Just a thought...

Even the largest module he has talked about would spin you brain. Now you might be able to use a BA-330 to test gravity effects on mice though.
In the correct configuration, spinning 2 of them on either end of a long tether would work just fine.
I was thinking of spinning along the axis...
In order to have that, you have to have this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=031YL_vEi9c
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Rocket Science on 07/20/2011 01:04 am
Has anyone ever considered spinning up the module to create artificial gravity for long term missions? Just a thought...

Even the largest module he has talked about would spin you brain. Now you might be able to use a BA-330 to test gravity effects on mice though.
In the correct configuration, spinning 2 of them on either end of a long tether would work just fine.
I was thinking of spinning along the axis...
In order to have that, you have to have this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=031YL_vEi9c
Thanks for the video. Just think of that as a cross-sectional slice of the module and you have my idea. You will create centripetal acceleration which is just a function velocity and radius.
Regards
Robert
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Blackjax on 07/20/2011 01:51 am
Here is the first draft. I will have more later.

FYI - for those of you who want to play with a 3D version, you can download Sketchup free:
http://sketchup.google.com/intl/en/download/index.html

...and use this model

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=90c396d37d75639cb4ac0fba0941b330

Great for playing with your own station/ship designs or comparing to a payload fairing...

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=a6b4562b567f33e215a2293956fb0e09&prevstart=0
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 07/20/2011 02:03 am
Has anyone ever considered spinning up the module to create artificial gravity for long term missions? Just a thought...

Even the largest module he has talked about would spin you brain. Now you might be able to use a BA-330 to test gravity effects on mice though.
In the correct configuration, spinning 2 of them on either end of a long tether would work just fine.

I hope you understand that the acceleration imparted via a tether break is just about the same as for retrofire. In other words, there is a non-zero chance that if the tether should break that at least one module might de-orbit.

The dangers of utilizing tethers in LEO is a prime reason why CSI was advocating tether experiments in cislunar space, using the Lunar Express architecture to make them affordable. If a tether breaks halfway out to the Moon, the spacecraft can easily recover its trajectory; if the same happens in LEO, it could be a very bad day.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: e of pi on 07/20/2011 02:50 am
In order to have that, you have to have this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=031YL_vEi9c
Thanks for the video. Just think of that as a cross-sectional slice of the module and you have my idea. You will create centripetal acceleration which is just a function velocity and radius.
Regards
Robert
As the creator of that video and one Robert to another, that model is based on the size of the Nautilus-X ring, approximately 60 feet in diameter, and it's still a bit small for spin-grav. To make 1/3 gravity, it has to spin at around 6 RPM--close to the best guess at human maximums. Bigelow has nothing on their manifest or even planned that would have that kind of diameter, which means even higher spin rates to get any decent gravity. Even BA-2100 is only 40 feet, and that's basically maxing a SDHLV fairing. To go much bigger with Transhab tech, you need new launchers--not for mass, but for fairing. However, with a torus design like Nautilus, you aren't as limited by your fairing diameter, which is I believe what Pat was suggesting. It'd be a major break with how Bigelow's been working so far (incremental improvements on the Transhab work).

Here is the first draft. I will have more later.

Chris, I've been working on revising my Transhab Module calculator (http://"http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/transhabcalc.php"), and this stuff is highly of interest for me to compare with my own models. Would it be all right if I roll some of this into the groundwork for an upcoming revision?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 07/20/2011 02:54 am
Thank you Chris. Keep going!
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: go4mars on 07/20/2011 03:51 am
As the creator of that video and one Robert to another, that model is based on the size of the Nautilus-X ring, approximately 60 feet in diameter, and it's still a bit small for spin-grav. To make 1/3 gravity, it has to spin at around 6 RPM--close to the best guess at human maximums. Bigelow has nothing on their manifest or even planned that would have that kind of diameter, which means even higher spin rates to get any decent gravity. Even BA-2100 is only 40 feet, and that's basically maxing a SDHLV fairing. To go much bigger with Transhab tech, you need new launchers--not for mass, but for fairing.

Not that I'm against bigger launchers, but couldn't a bunch of BA-2100's be attached end to end, forming a big doughnut made of BA-2100 chunks?  They are each 60 feet long.  A dozen of those would give you a doughnut with a circumference of about 700 feet.  Spin that up.  I wonder how that would look from Earth.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Chris-A on 07/20/2011 06:49 am
I looked over the presentation with the CGI images and figured enough is present to make a decent crack at it. I’m confident the dimensions are well within a yard or better. I used Blender to create a rough outline close enough using the drawing. Close, but the camera perspective doesn’t match too well with the PR imagery.

My first impression is the small size of the module itself. Not much headroom from the trust to the inflatable wall!
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Chris-A on 07/20/2011 07:40 am
Here is a draft of the BA-2100. Easy from the pdf image.
Edit: Added metric dimensions.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 07/20/2011 08:23 am
Errr... is there any way you could whip one up in metric? Us southern hemisphere types don't really grok imperial units that well and doing all the math for the measurements hurts my head!
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 07/20/2011 12:31 pm
Not that I'm against bigger launchers, but couldn't a bunch of BA-2100's be attached end to end, forming a big doughnut made of BA-2100 chunks?  They are each 60 feet long.  A dozen of those would give you a doughnut with a circumference of about 700 feet.  Spin that up.  I wonder how that would look from Earth.
If the interior Water Blankets are used all the water will migrate to the "floor." I strongly suspect there would be other problems too.
Even if two modules are attached to each end of a mile long tether there would be problems using a module that was designed to operate in Zero-G as a gravity platform.
If Bigelow makes a station capable of Artificial Gravity it'll be designed with that in mind right from the start.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Rocket Science on 07/20/2011 12:39 pm
Spin up the module just like a “pizza rolling pin” at a faster RPM. Using the inside outer wall as the floor. What do you think?
Regards
Robert
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: e of pi on 07/20/2011 12:59 pm
Spin up the module just like a “pizza rolling pin” at a faster RPM. Using the inside outer wall as the floor. What do you think?
Regards
Robert

It's possible, but impractical with a Transhab style module. The required RPM to generate any useful gravity is too high, even with a BA-2100. At the human maximum of around 6 RPM found in ground studies, you'd only generate about 1/4 G in a BA-2100's 40 ft diameter. To get a larger diameter, and thus be able to generate more gravity with the same rotation rate, you need to get much bigger. A 52 ft diameter is needed for 1/3 G at 6 RPM, 80 ft for 1/2 G at 6 RPM, and both of those are far larger than a Transhab-style inflatable could get on current launchers.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Garrett on 07/20/2011 02:25 pm
Spin up the module just like a “pizza rolling pin” at a faster RPM. Using the inside outer wall as the floor. What do you think?
Remember, only the floor of the module will be at the desired level of g-force, i.e. your feet will feel that force, your head, which is closer to the center, will not. It literally messes with your head, and is what e of pi is talking about when he refers to the "human maximum".

A rolling pin situation might have some uses. Science experiments for example. Another one might be as a sleeping module, since in that case if your entire body is against the "floor" then the gravity gradient effects are reduced, but still probably not by enough for a Bigelow style module
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: go4mars on 07/20/2011 02:32 pm
If the interior Water Blankets are used all the water will migrate to the "floor."

Would probably be a system of rib-like bladders along the inside of the wall.  Could be drained and re-filled one at a time as needed. 
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Rocket Science on 07/20/2011 03:17 pm
The reason I'm on this track is for a mission to Mars.  Even 1/4-1/3g should offset long duration flight and to be in shape for a landing.
Regards
Robert
http://atomicrockets.posterous.com/bimodal-ntr-mars-mission-2001
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: e of pi on 07/20/2011 03:38 pm
Robert,

That mission called for a Transhab module essentially equivalent to the BA-330. At the maximum of 6 RPM, the module's diameter of 6.7 m would allow just 1/8 G at floor level, and at the level of the head 1.85 m or so above that, the gravity would be just 6% Earth gravity. Not really worth bothering.

Now that sort of lo0gic is what ispried the toroidal ring design of the Nautilus-X centrifuge module, which also provides a couple hundred cubic meters but by creating a ring out of a mix of rigid and inflatable/deployable structures, gets a diameter of 60 feet: enough to generate some reasonable G without spinning beyond the rates humans can handle.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 07/20/2011 04:06 pm
The reason I'm on this track is for a mission to Mars.  Even 1/4-1/3g should offset long duration flight and to be in shape for a landing.
Regards
Robert
http://atomicrockets.posterous.com/bimodal-ntr-mars-mission-2001


Your attachment shows what I believe we should be developing now, not just the tiny capsule on the end of it. :)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Rocket Science on 07/20/2011 04:12 pm
Robert,

That mission called for a Transhab module essentially equivalent to the BA-330. At the maximum of 6 RPM, the module's diameter of 6.7 m would allow just 1/8 G at floor level, and at the level of the head 1.85 m or so above that, the gravity would be just 6% Earth gravity. Not really worth bothering.

Now that sort of lo0gic is what ispried the toroidal ring design of the Nautilus-X centrifuge module, which also provides a couple hundred cubic meters but by creating a ring out of a mix of rigid and inflatable/deployable structures, gets a diameter of 60 feet: enough to generate some reasonable G without spinning beyond the rates humans can handle.
Hey pi!
I got to use a short-arm centrifuge a few years back as a launch simulator which just got me thinking again.
Thanks for the thoughts
Keep up with the studies!
Robert
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1520216
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: simonbp on 07/20/2011 04:21 pm
I was responding to OldAtlasEGuy when he was talking about launching 2 BA-330's stacked into a 5 x 34 meter, or so, long faring.
Just the BA-330's would be 46 metric tons. Then there'd be all the stuff needed to keep them together in that configuration after they were in orbit.
I'm not an engineer, but even I can say with certainty, that ain't gonna happen with an FH.

I wouldn't be so sure; if you placed them side-by-side in a custom-designed faring, it should be feasible. The capacity of FH is 53 tonnes, so 7 tonnes is more than enough margin for any spacecraft adapter/custom faring. Once the upper stage reaches orbit, the two modules would independently leave the spacecraft adapter, and then dock with each other (which all the BA-330s have the ability to do).

Two launches like that (one with 2x 330s and one with 1x 330 and a propulsion module/docking node) would produce a quite sizable space station. Indeed, assuming the launch cost is ~$300 million (for 2x FH), and the usual rule-of-thumb that spacecraft cost twice the LV, that puts the total cost about $1 billion for 3x330 station. In other words, a space station larger than the ISS for about the cost of a single recent Shuttle mission....
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ugordan on 07/20/2011 04:28 pm
The capacity of FH is 53 tonnes, so 7 tonnes is more than enough margin for any spacecraft adapter/custom faring.

It amuses me when people take that 53 tonne figure as though it's set in stone. What's wrong with just rounding it to a nice 50 tonnes given all other uncertainties involved?

I'm still not convinced we're likely to see such long F9 cores required for that capacity any time soon, let alone on the first vehicles.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 07/20/2011 06:27 pm
 
I was responding to OldAtlasEGuy when he was talking about launching 2 BA-330's stacked into a 5 x 34 meter, or so, long faring.
Just the BA-330's would be 46 metric tons. Then there'd be all the stuff needed to keep them together in that configuration after they were in orbit.
I'm not an engineer, but even I can say with certainty, that ain't gonna happen with an FH.

I wouldn't be so sure; if you placed them side-by-side in a custom-designed faring, it should be feasible. The capacity of FH is 53 tonnes, so 7 tonnes is more than enough margin for any spacecraft adapter/custom faring. Once the upper stage reaches orbit, the two modules would independently leave the spacecraft adapter, and then dock with each other (which all the BA-330s have the ability to do).

Two launches like that (one with 2x 330s and one with 1x 330 and a propulsion module/docking node) would produce a quite sizable space station. Indeed, assuming the launch cost is ~$300 million (for 2x FH), and the usual rule-of-thumb that spacecraft cost twice the LV, that puts the total cost about $1 billion for 3x330 station. In other words, a space station larger than the ISS for about the cost of a single recent Shuttle mission....
  A BA-330 has no propusion nor even RCS. If 2 are launched in the configuration you suggest they can't dock.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Blackjax on 07/20/2011 06:41 pm
A BA-330 has no propusion nor even RCS. If 2 are launched in the configuration you suggest they can't dock.

That assertion appears to disagree with direct statements from Bigelow in their presentation:
http://images.spaceref.com/news/2011/bigelow.chrtz.isdc.pdf
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 07/20/2011 07:03 pm
A BA-330 has no propusion nor even RCS. If 2 are launched in the configuration you suggest they can't dock.

Exactly the opposite is true.
Quote
Propulsion:

    BA 330 utilizes two propulsion systems on the fore and aft of the spacecraft. The aft propulsion system can be refueled and reused.

BA 330 can perform the chase role in docking.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: simonbp on 07/20/2011 07:19 pm
It amuses me when people take that 53 tonne figure as though it's set in stone. What's wrong with just rounding it to a nice 50 tonnes given all other uncertainties involved?

I'm still not convinced we're likely to see such long F9 cores required for that capacity any time soon, let alone on the first vehicles.

Well frankly, because that would be making up stuff.

SpaceX is currently selling FH with a capacity of 53 tonnes. Presumably, that's the minimum performance that they'll guarantee for a legal contract, and their actual expected performance is a bit better. Also, they've given zero indication that they have any plans on gradually ramping up to 53 tonnes, and in fact have quite explicitly said (on numerous occasions) that the first VAFB launch will be all-up full-performance.

So, saying that FH won't initially be able to reach 53 tonnes is a bit like saying that CST-100 will only be able to carry 4 crew because you don't believe Boeing. It's just (malicious) speculation with no actual proof.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: go4mars on 07/20/2011 08:07 pm
SpaceX is currently selling FH with a capacity of 53 tonnes. Presumably, that's the minimum performance that they'll guarantee for a legal contract, and their actual expected performance is a bit better. Also, they've given zero indication that they have any plans on gradually ramping up to 53 tonnes, and in fact have quite explicitly said (on numerous occasions) that the first VAFB launch will be all-up full-performance.

Their FH video shows a short version of FH, and they might have been referring to a "full-up performance" of the cross-feed system.  It could be either way imo.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 07/20/2011 08:30 pm
Water can easily be locked in place by simply lining the shielding water bags with one of any numbers of water absorbant beads, grains or powders - a product that's been available for ages. Low in mass some can lock up hundreds of times their volume of water.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 07/21/2011 01:23 am
The reason I'm on this track is for a mission to Mars.  Even 1/4-1/3g should offset long duration flight and to be in shape for a landing.
Regards
Robert
http://atomicrockets.posterous.com/bimodal-ntr-mars-mission-2001


You have a long thing spaceship there with the engine at one end.  That shape is optimised for going through an atmosphere.  This is a shortage of air in space.

Try redesigning the ship as a baton with the engine at the centre.  You can then generate gravity by spinning around the engine.

A film of baton twirling.
http://www.wbtf.org (http://www.wbtf.org)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Chris-A on 07/21/2011 03:14 am
I drafted out the conceptual Service and Node Module, estimated dimensions.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 07/21/2011 08:12 am
Water can easily be locked in place by simply lining the shielding water bags with one of any numbers of water absorbant beads, grains or powders - a product that's been available for ages. Low in mass some can lock up hundreds of times their volume of water.

If there's a solar storm, detach the bags and pad them around a central storm shelter. Also, just having them in smaller bags rather blankets takes away the "pooling at the floor" problem.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lampyridae on 07/21/2011 08:15 am
I drafted out the conceptual Service and Node Module, estimated dimensions.

Thanks for the metric measurements! My brain thanks you.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 07/21/2011 12:49 pm
A BA-330 has no propusion nor even RCS. If 2 are launched in the configuration you suggest they can't dock.

That assertion appears to disagree with direct statements from Bigelow in their presentation:
http://images.spaceref.com/news/2011/bigelow.chrtz.isdc.pdf
Yeah, I did forget about that statement. :o
But, this is what was said at ISDC;
TRADITIONAL RELIABLE
HYDRAZINE PROPULSION
SYSTEM FOR AFT END
• INNOVATIVE GASEOUS
HYDROGEN AND GASEOUS
OXYGEN SYSTEM USED FOR
FORWARD PROPULSION
SYSTEM
It looks like they've changed plans again.  My WAG is the "Aft" propulsion module is for RCS & orbital maneuvering & the "Chase/Forward Propulsion" is provided by the Propulsion Buss/Docking Node that is a separate system from Station Module itself.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: go4mars on 07/21/2011 04:44 pm
Water can easily be locked in place by simply lining the shielding water bags with one of any numbers of water absorbant beads, grains or powders - a product that's been available for ages. Low in mass some can lock up hundreds of times their volume of water.

If there's a solar storm, detach the bags and pad them around a central storm shelter. Also, just having them in smaller bags rather blankets takes away the "pooling at the floor" problem.

In addition, the surface tension of water might be used as a factor for self-containment when in low gravity.  Might also consider freezing it within spaces in the outer walls.  Use "heat tape" when you need some of it.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Robotbeat on 07/21/2011 04:49 pm
Robert,

That mission called for a Transhab module essentially equivalent to the BA-330. At the maximum of 6 RPM...
6 RPM is NOT the maximum.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 07/21/2011 04:57 pm
Since Bigelow has no plans to provide artificial gravity anytime soon, can we take this discussion over to the Advanced Concept section, and get back to What is Happening at Bigelow?

People here are impatient to learn when there will be ponies.

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: SpacemanInSPACE on 07/21/2011 11:09 pm
Hahaha indeed, I'm hoping Bigelow releases another set of photos soon!.!
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: anton_P6 on 07/23/2011 08:17 pm
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/14916667/i-team

Quite interesting..
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: go4mars on 07/24/2011 03:29 am
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/14916667/i-team

Quite interesting..
Indeed!

"More memorable than a business card".  Does anyone know if Mr. Big has a store in Las Vegas where you can buy these models?  Or a knock-off facsimile?

http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/careers-description.php?id=82

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Cherokee43v6 on 07/24/2011 06:18 am
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/14916667/i-team

Quite interesting..
Indeed!

"More memorable than a business card".  Does anyone know if Mr. Big has a store in Las Vegas where you can buy these models?  Or a knock-off facsimile?

http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/careers-description.php?id=82



Better yet... might he partner with Revell and sell kits for US to build! :D
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: manboy on 07/24/2011 08:24 pm
Since Bigelow has no plans to provide artificial gravity anytime soon, can we take this discussion over to the Advanced Concept section, and get back to What is Happening at Bigelow?

People here are impatient to learn when there will be ponies.


Agreed. I wonder is Space Station Alpha and Beta are still in the works or if they've downscaled to a single module station?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: manboy on 07/24/2011 08:30 pm
http://www.8newsnow.com/story/14916667/i-team

Quite interesting..
Very cool. But why do news outlets always was show old outdated CG renderings of ISS?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: tigerade on 07/25/2011 06:38 am

Agreed. I wonder is Space Station Alpha and Beta are still in the works or if they've downscaled to a single module station?

I bet it would depend on how many customers they get.

I'm really curious how many potential customers Mr. Big might have.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 07/25/2011 12:58 pm

Agreed. I wonder is Space Station Alpha and Beta are still in the works or if they've downscaled to a single module station?

I bet it would depend on how many customers they get.

I'm really curious how many potential customers Mr. Big might have.
I've been wondering the same thing recently.
At ISDC in May he pretty much committed to two BA-330's.
Would those be better used together in LEO? Or separate in LEO? Or 1 in LEO & 1 at EML-1?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 07/25/2011 03:39 pm
I bet it would depend on how many customers they get.

I'm really curious how many potential customers Mr. Big might have.

Everything depends on how many customers Bigelow gets. So far, there are zero customers, so nothing is being launched. When you hear about hard contracts with aerospace terms being signed, then that's your signal that Bigelow is going to fly a full scale system.

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: oldAtlas_Eguy on 07/25/2011 08:13 pm
Quote
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/ (http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/)
Expediting BA 330 Development
Due to customer demand and progress in commercial crew transportation, Bigelow Aerospace has moved directly to BA 330 development. As the name indicates, the BA 330 will provide roughly 330 cubic meters of usable volume and can support a crew of up to six. The BA 330 can function as an independent space station, or several BA 330s can be combined to support an even larger orbital complex.
 

This little statement from Bigelow, Inc seems to indicate that marketing has realized that a half sized BA330 or Sundancer Module is too small to fulfill the market need and to skip it to proceed directly to BA330.

But it could also just be that by skipping Sundancer Bigelow is doing this to save money by lowering their expenditures in only developing one model right now.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 07/25/2011 09:41 pm
Quote
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/ (http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/)
Expediting BA 330 Development
Due to customer demand and progress in commercial crew transportation, Bigelow Aerospace has moved directly to BA 330 development. As the name indicates, the BA 330 will provide roughly 330 cubic meters of usable volume and can support a crew of up to six. The BA 330 can function as an independent space station, or several BA 330s can be combined to support an even larger orbital complex.
 

This little statement from Bigelow, Inc seems to indicate that marketing has realized that a half sized BA330 or Sundancer Module is too small to fulfill the market need and to skip it to proceed directly to BA330.

But it could also just be that by skipping Sundancer Bigelow is doing this to save money by lowering their expenditures in only developing one model right now.


Or kicking the expenditure of real money farther down the road.  So, the first to test the life support equipment in space will be the inhabitants of the first commercial space platform, with the cancellation of the testbed.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: oldAtlas_Eguy on 07/25/2011 10:27 pm
So, the first to test the life support equipment in space will be the inhabitants of the first commercial space platform, with the cancellation of the testbed.

Sundancer was just a smaller module that just happened to be scheduled to be the first to be occupied. Sundancer would have lowered the risks for BA330 but would not eliminate the need to test BA330’s life support system during the first occupation just like the testing for Sundancer would have been.

All space vehicles to get its full life support system testing must at one point have someone test it on orbit for the first time. Testing on BA330 will be no different than what has occurred for all of the ISS modules, Shuttle, and other HSF vehicles flown to date. There is only so-much that can be tested on the ground, and Bigelow is already doing those tests including testing with humans. Eventually long duration testing on the ground of the life support components would be performed before launching the BA330 into orbit.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Patchouli on 07/25/2011 10:48 pm
Dragon's ECLSS was ground tested before the first F9 ever flew.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11699810/
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/05/2011 12:43 pm
I sure would like to have been a fly on the wall in Mr. B's office when the Boeing/Atlas V announcement was made.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 08/05/2011 01:24 pm
Wonder what he thinks about the choice of a 412 with that SRB?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: grr on 08/05/2011 04:12 pm
Wonder what he thinks about the choice of a 412 with that SRB?

He is a businessman.
He has said all along that he NEEDS multiple systems to keep costs down and reliability high to fly his stations.
He will keep his promise to Boeing, which likely said that he will give Boeing 1-2 launches for 2-4 years (that was a total SWAG).  Boeing then has to compete against the likes of Dreamchaser on an atlas 402, new shepard originally on an atlas (???), and of course,  dragon/F9. Considering that 3 of these use atlas as their lauchers, it pretty much guarentees that dragon/F9 will have some missions. Afterall Bigelow will not want to depend on exactly one launcher (reliability).
Unless Boeing is making zero profits on their CST-100 bigelow launches, I suspect that Boeing will have exactly the minimum promised with Bigelow and no more. He simply will not need them. He will have dream chaser and new Shepard.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 08/05/2011 04:32 pm
The 412 is about 10M more than the 402. But CST-100 is also further along in development than DC and NS, so we still don't know if either won't need more a solid or two. And may be, Boeing is testing with 412 for an extreme case, but they could launch on a 402. There's still a lot of ground to cover yet.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/06/2011 01:35 am
Wonder what he thinks about the choice of a 412 with that SRB?
I'll bet he had some influence on the choice.
Can this Atlas V configuration get a CST-100 to EML-1?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 08/06/2011 01:52 am
Wonder what he thinks about the choice of a 412 with that SRB?
I'll bet he had some influence on the choice.
Can this Atlas V configuration get a CST-100 to EML-1?

No, it can only get it to LEO.

Edit: 551 posts, good for today. :)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/06/2011 02:19 am
Wonder what he thinks about the choice of a 412 with that SRB?
I'll bet he had some influence on the choice.
Can this Atlas V configuration get a CST-100 to EML-1?

No, it can only get it to LEO.
Can a Centaur be refueled in LEO & then continue on to EML-1?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 08/06/2011 02:25 am
Wonder what he thinks about the choice of a 412 with that SRB?
I'll bet he had some influence on the choice.
Can this Atlas V configuration get a CST-100 to EML-1?

No, it can only get it to LEO.
Can a Centaur be refueled in LEO & then continue on to EML-1?

Centaur is not designed for on-orbit refueling. A hydrolox upper stage with that capability would represent a significant development effort.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: jongoff on 08/06/2011 03:39 am
Wonder what he thinks about the choice of a 412 with that SRB?
I'll bet he had some influence on the choice.
Can this Atlas V configuration get a CST-100 to EML-1?

No, it can only get it to LEO.
Can a Centaur be refueled in LEO & then continue on to EML-1?

Centaur is not designed for on-orbit refueling. A hydrolox upper stage with that capability would represent a significant development effort.

Not as much as you would think.  It isn't there yet, but they've already started work on most of the pieces you would need.  The Integrated Vehicle Fluids work they're doing right now would take them from four fluids on the rocket (LOX, LH2, Hydrazine, and Helium) down to just LOX and LH2.  The Centaur hardware is actually good enough for rendezvous.  Combine it with a depot-based scaled-up version of the "Direct to Station" delivery concept Altius is working on, and you've got capture/docking.  At that point you only have prop transfer standing in the way, and that's something that they already know ways they're pretty sure would work, just haven't been tested yet (and they're not big technical challenges--just need to be flight tested to make sure there aren't any subtle challenges that still need to be addressed).  Sorry it's a bit off-topic for this thread, but I think that once IVF development is finished (and it's an actively funded priority last I heard), most of the rest of the upgrades are pretty straightforward.

Now admittedly, if you want long storage times, that requires more work (which has been started), but if you're just using it say for a TLI burn shortly after prop transfer, the Centaur wouldn't be the pacing item in a Centaur/depot system, the depot would be.

~Jon
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: 8900 on 08/06/2011 07:35 am
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/

Sundancer is now missing on the Bigelow website, statement released indicates that Sundancer has been cancelled
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: manboy on 08/06/2011 10:21 am
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/

Sundancer is now missing on the Bigelow website, statement released indicates that Sundancer has been cancelled
This was discussed a few pages back.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 08/06/2011 02:09 pm
Thanks for that information, Jon. Good to hear.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: marsavian on 08/06/2011 03:35 pm
Dragon's ECLSS was ground tested before the first F9 ever flew.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11699810/

Musk said he thinks Dragon can be ready to enter service in 2009 — a full year before the shuttle is expected to conduct its last flight.

"I feel very confident about being able to offer NASA an ISS-servicing capability by 2009 and am prepared to back that up with my own funding," Musk said.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Diagoras on 08/06/2011 10:30 pm
Dragon's ECLSS was ground tested before the first F9 ever flew.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11699810/

Musk said he thinks Dragon can be ready to enter service in 2009 — a full year before the shuttle is expected to conduct its last flight.

"I feel very confident about being able to offer NASA an ISS-servicing capability by 2009 and am prepared to back that up with my own funding," Musk said.


I assume that would be conditional on COTS-D being funded.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: marsavian on 08/06/2011 10:36 pm
I think it referred to basic CRS.

Musk indicated that he sees no problems meeting the aggressive timelines NASA has established under the COTS program.

"Development-schedule risk with Dragon is as much a function of NASA as it is SpaceX given all the ISS-visiting vehicle requirements, but I think we can get it done in another three and a half years," he said.


Something to bear in mind when similar 'guarantees' are given about the proposed Falcon XX HLV.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/06/2011 10:42 pm
Need this to be on Bigelow guys.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/07/2011 01:32 am
I am still convinced that Bigelow intends to get to EML-1 within his first few deployed station modules. Maybe even one of the first two that will be completed in the 2014/15 time frame.
It would be an outpost unlike any other.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: douglas100 on 08/07/2011 09:58 am
I think Bigelow will be doing well to get his modules into LEO by this time. It's unlikely there will be means of transporting people to his station before then (except possibly by Soyuz.)

As for sending modules and crew to EML-1, this takes roughly twice the energy to reach LEO. I don't think the CST 100's heatshield could handle entry from EML-1, although Dragon's probably could.

I don't think either the modules or the transport spacecraft could be sent to EML-1 with current launch vehicles. It would require refueling in LEO as you were discussing earlier or the Falcon Heavy.  However I doubt that either capability will be operational by the time you propose.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 08/07/2011 10:03 am
I don't think either the modules or the transport spacecraft could be sent to EML-1 with current launch vehicles. It would require refueling in LEO as you were discussing earlier or the Falcon Heavy.

Or EOR which doesn't require new technology.

Quote
However I doubt that either capability will be operational by the time you propose.

Storable propellant transfer has existed for decades and Bigelow has said he will use it. There has even been speculation he would use hydrazine monopropellant for the TLI, but that would be very expensive. Then again, the cost of the launch can potentially be amortised over many years and many clients - if he can find any clients.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/07/2011 02:38 pm
I think Bigelow will be doing well to get his modules into LEO by this time. It's unlikely there will be means of transporting people to his station before then (except possibly by Soyuz.)

As for sending modules and crew to EML-1, this takes roughly twice the energy to reach LEO. I don't think the CST 100's heatshield could handle entry from EML-1, although Dragon's probably could.

I don't think either the modules or the transport spacecraft could be sent to EML-1 with current launch vehicles. It would require refueling in LEO as you were discussing earlier or the Falcon Heavy.  However I doubt that either capability will be operational by the time you propose.
Bigelow's intention is to make LEO, the Lunar Surface & Mars accessible. In order to do the he's going to push everybody else's capabilities right to the edge of what is possible.
With that in mind, the pix we've seen show BA-330's with propulsion capabilites that can get them from LEO to EML-1 on their own. If they can do that, what prevents them from getting back?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 08/07/2011 02:40 pm
If they can do that, what prevents them from getting back?

Why would you want to bring the BA-330 itself back? Only a capsule has to come back.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/07/2011 03:51 pm
An LEO - EML-1 Cycler that only has to be refueled would be a much better way to go than a capsule that has to have it's heatsheild replaced after every flight.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 08/07/2011 04:07 pm
Not necessarily, because it also requires much more propellant, even if the capsule's heat shield had to be replaced everytime, which is not a given. It would be more comfortable and safer to travel back and forth in a BA-330, but not more cost efficient I think.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 08/07/2011 04:09 pm
I am still convinced that Bigelow intends to get to EML-1 within his first few deployed station modules. Maybe even one of the first two that will be completed in the 2014/15 time frame.
It would be an outpost unlike any other.

We are going to have ponies at EML-1, too!  Seriously, if Bigelow won't build a LEO platform because he doesn't have a customer, why would he build an EML-1 platform?

My hypothesis is remains that, without a customer contract, Bigelow will simply make buildings, make subscale models, and full-scale mockups. BTW, a "customer contract" could mean a NASA contract.

And I do not include MOUs as customer contracts.

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: douglas100 on 08/07/2011 04:18 pm
Yes, everything we've discussed is technically possible. (I take Martijn's point about refueling with storable propellant. But currently the only operational system is currently on the Russian side of the ISS. Bigelow's would have to be developed.) But what is realistically possible by 2015 is my point.

It's all down to market. I think Danderman's point is valid.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: mmeijeri on 08/07/2011 04:22 pm
Yes, everything we've discussed is technically possible. (I take Martijn's point about refueling with storable propellant. But currently the only operational system is currently on the Russian side of the ISS. Bigelow's would have to be developed.) But what is realistically possible by 2015 is my point.

Bigelow has already said that the hydrazine propulsion system will be reusable, it's on the BA web site. And EOR with a Centaur should be possible soon - if funded.

Quote
It's all down to market. I think Danderman's point is valid.

Agreed, funding is the main issue.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 08/07/2011 08:13 pm
The Bigelow funding/customer critical issue is so important that speculation about what color or what size his platform will be is pretty much irrelevant. I would focus on actual customer signings, rather than speculation about which launch vehicle he will use. Its pretty clear that actual launch vehicle selection would be a function of which customer will be paying for the launch.

No, MOUs don't count.

Don't worry about transportation of crew to the station, if money is available, Soyuz is available.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: paycom on 08/07/2011 09:06 pm
BTW, a "customer contract" could mean a NASA contract.
One can imagine other potential (LEO) customers, too. E.g. there is a nice little russian company with great visions (Orbitaltechnologies).
If they really  want to do space tourism and science, a single small module won't be enough.
If they manage to get the money...
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 08/08/2011 01:54 am
Have any European Governments received requests for funding of a space station from their science organisations?  These things tend to be planned years in advance.

Scientists, civil servants and politicians should be talking about possible missions.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 08/08/2011 01:59 am
Right now the EU is trying to keep itself from disintegrating, much less plan ahead more than a few years.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/08/2011 03:35 am
Not necessarily, because it also requires much more propellant, even if the capsule's heat shield had to be replaced everytime, which is not a given. It would be more comfortable and safer to travel back and forth in a BA-330, but not more cost efficient I think.
The Aft Propulsion Bus is refuelable with water. If used as a Cycler between EML-1 & LEO it wouldn't even take much of that. The Capsule could come along for the ride.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 08/08/2011 03:47 am
Bigelow has also talked about using large scale prop buses - much larger than the standard ones for his stations
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Cherokee43v6 on 08/08/2011 05:52 pm

Don't worry about transportation of crew to the station, if money is available, Soyuz is available.


I would disagree with this statement. 

Soyuz is available ONLY if Bigelow wants the extra expense of constant reboosts to maintain orbit.  The ISS is at the orbit it is (instead of higher where it wouldn't have to reboost nearly as often) because the Soyuz runs out of usable capacity above that altitude.

Also, would the Russians have the resources to ramp up production of the Soyuz sufficiently to support two stations?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: joek on 08/08/2011 11:42 pm
Don't worry about transportation of crew to the station, if money is available, Soyuz is available.

I really don't see how Soyuz would work for Bigelow.  The ledger has a couple positives but a large number of negatives...

Russia will undoubtedly require a Russian pilot for Soyuz, and that pilot would need to stay on station until return.  The two passengers will also require many months of training in Russia (IIRC 6-18mo? including having to learn Russian).  That is likely to put a damper on paying passengers and station occupancy rates.

Mr. B has said the BA-330 nominal crew size is 6, that they want to rotate the crew every 90 days, and thus they'll need at least 4 crew flights per year per module, or 24 seats per module per year.  (And the obvious implication is that he's assuming a vehicle capacity of 6 people/flight.)  While he's never revealed what the minimum occupancy rate or revenue is for break-even, a reasonable assumption is that his initial operating margins aren't huge and that he needs to maximize paying station occupants.

To achieve full station occupancy using Soyuz would mean at least 2x the number of flights (8/yr) vs. CST-100 or Dragon Crew (4/yr).  Given that 1/3 of the station occupants are Russian pilots; that Russia is extremely unlikely to pay (or barter) for slots on a Bigelow station; and that Bigelow would likely have to pay for those Russian pilot's time and their on station support (e.g., consumables) for the duration.  Much higher costs for a 1/3 reduction in revenue?  That doesn't sound like a recipe for success.

To achieve full paying station occupancy they could put 2 empty Soyuz lifeboats up there to eliminate the need for the pilots to stay on station (assuming a non-Russian pilot is allowed in an emergency).  But that would require an additional 1/3 more flights for a total of 12/yr (2 paying station occupants per Soyuz) for full station occupancy.  It would also incur significant inventory costs (2 Soyuz sitting up there idle at any given time) and occupy 2 docking ports (not sure if number of ports may be an issue).

Soyuz doesn't appear to make sense for Bigelow unless the per seat passenger cost comes *way* down and Russia can support significantly increased Soyuz flight rates.  Even as one-shot to get some people on a Bigelow station sooner rather than later, Soyuz makes little or no sense.  Bigelow isn't likely to launch anything until he has sufficient paying customers.  And he isn't likely to sign many customers without a sustainable (reliable and affordable) transportation system.

Then there's cargo.  I can't find any mention of cargo requirements by Bigelow.  Assuming 6 people/flight, none of the CCDev vehicles are likely to have much cargo capacity, so there must be some need for separate cargo flights.  With three passengers, how much cargo can Soyuz carry?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: manboy on 08/09/2011 01:02 am
It would also incur significant inventory costs (2 Soyuz sitting up there idle at any given time) and occupy 2 docking ports (not sure if number of ports may be an issue).
Not to mention Soyuz would require a unique docking port.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 08/09/2011 01:59 am
With three passengers, how much cargo can Soyuz carry?

Tens of kilos. Even less to Bigelow's low inclination and (AFAIK) relatively high altitude.

To the list of negatives, I'd add a tremendous ITAR headache for a US company (Bigelow) to work with, integrate, and launch Russian docking hardware.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: kkattula on 08/09/2011 04:48 am
Note:  Soyuz has been taking tourists to the ISS for quite a while now, but has apparently never factored into Bigelow's plans. Probably for the above reasons.

They've always said they needed an American commercial people transporter.  Preferably two of them.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: manboy on 08/10/2011 05:49 pm
Note:  Soyuz has been taking tourists to the ISS for quite a while now, but has apparently never factored into Bigelow's plans. Probably for the above reasons.

They've always said they needed an American commercial people transporter.  Preferably two of them.
Not true.

Quote from: Robert Bigelow (Nov. 2004)
"Two years ago I felt comfortable because of conversations that we had with the Russians that we could buy all the Soyuz [spacecraft] we want. In the last two years things have changed dramatically," Bigelow said. NASA's desperate need for the Soyuz following the Columbia accident, Bigelow said, has led to the United States government to pay what no private sector company can afford to pay.

NASA, he noted, has no choice "They've got to have the Soyuz and it's going to get worse once the space shuttle stops flying," Bigelow said. The last thing a private company can do, Bigelow said, is go compete head-to-head with NASA to buy Soyuz spacecraft. "We can't afford that so we have to find something indigenous. And of course the Chinese eventually will have their Shenzhou [piloted spacecraft] being offered to the private sector. But that's not going to be for a while."
http://www.space.com/517-exclusive-rules-set-50-million-america-space-prize.html
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/17/2011 04:25 pm
If a BA-330 weighs in at 23 metric tons & a FH can put 53 metric tons into LEO, how much water would fit into a BA-330 in stowed configuration & hauled up to orbit in the intitial launch?
How much would a 2.5" water blanket on the inside of a BA-330 weigh?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: douglas100 on 08/17/2011 04:38 pm
Another problem about using Soyuz with Bigelow is orbital inclination. I believe Bigelow has talked about using a 40 degree inclination orbit. If that's the case then Soyuz cannot reach the Bigelow station from Baikonur. It would have to launch from Kourou causing extra complexity and cost.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Lars_J on 08/17/2011 04:44 pm
If a BA-330 weighs in at 23 metric tons & a FH can put 53 metric tons into LEO, how much water would fit into a BA-330 in stowed configuration & hauled up to orbit in the intitial launch?
How much would a 2.5" water blanket on the inside of a BA-330 weigh?

The volume and mass of water is easy to calculate. 1 cubic meter weighs roughly 1 metric ton if I remember my schools stuff right. :)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: oldAtlas_Eguy on 08/17/2011 04:55 pm
If a BA-330 weighs in at 23 metric tons & a FH can put 53 metric tons into LEO, how much water would fit into a BA-330 in stowed configuration & hauled up to orbit in the intitial launch?
How much would a 2.5" water blanket on the inside of a BA-330 weigh?

The volume and mass of water is easy to calculate. 1 cubic meter weighs roughly 1 metric ton if I remember my schools stuff right. :)

Or about 13-14MT of water.

(6.7m dia *PI *10m length *2.5in*2.54cm/in /100cm/m -> 13.4m3 * 100*100*100m3/cm3*1g/cm3*1kg/1000g*1MT/1000kg)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/17/2011 04:58 pm
Another problem about using Soyuz with Bigelow is orbital inclination. I believe Bigelow has talked about using a 40 degree inclination orbit. If that's the case then Soyuz cannot reach the Bigelow station from Baikonur. It would have to launch from Kourou causing extra complexity and cost.
While I can't find it now, I distinctly remember Bigelow stating that the operational altitude for Alpha would be 350 miles.
I did find a Wiki reference to the Sundancer altitude as 288 miles.
Can Soyuz get to those altitudes?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/17/2011 05:11 pm
If a BA-330 weighs in at 23 metric tons & a FH can put 53 metric tons into LEO, how much water would fit into a BA-330 in stowed configuration & hauled up to orbit in the intitial launch?
How much would a 2.5" water blanket on the inside of a BA-330 weigh?
The volume and mass of water is easy to calculate. 1 cubic meter weighs roughly 1 metric ton if I remember my schools stuff right. :)

Or about 13-14MT of water.

(6.7m dia *PI *10m length *2.5in*2.54cm/in /100cm/m -> 13.4m3 * 100*100*100m3/cm3*1g/cm3*1kg/1000g*1MT/1000kg)
The potential is there then to haul quite a bit more than is needed for shielding. This could be used in the refuelable Forward Propulsion.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 08/17/2011 06:31 pm
Pat, I thought the 330 was 20 tons. Do you have a source for the 23? The website doesn't say.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/17/2011 06:40 pm
Pat, I thought the 330 was 20 tons. Do you have a source for the 23? The website doesn't say.
Wiki, BA-330 Page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BA_330)
Mass Between 20,000 kg and 23,000 kg
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: douglas100 on 08/17/2011 07:32 pm

While I can't find it now, I distinctly remember Bigelow stating that the operational altitude for Alpha would be 350 miles.
I did find a Wiki reference to the Sundancer altitude as 288 miles.
Can Soyuz get to those altitudes?

Don't know. It might be pushing the propellant margins to operate  at these altitudes. Launching from Kourou would enable a Soyuz to carry more propellant than from Baikonur, but whether the tanks would have to be enlarged for this I don't know either. Bottom line is that it looks unlikely at the moment that Soyuz will be flying to a Bigelow station.

But of course, if Bigelow puts his modules into a an orbit at about the same altitude and inclination as the ISS then all that could change...
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jason1701 on 08/17/2011 07:37 pm

While I can't find it now, I distinctly remember Bigelow stating that the operational altitude for Alpha would be 350 miles.
I did find a Wiki reference to the Sundancer altitude as 288 miles.
Can Soyuz get to those altitudes?

Don't know. It might be pushing the propellant margins to operate  at these altitudes. Launching from Kourou would enable a Soyuz to carry more propellant than from Baikonur, but whether the tanks would have to be enlarged for this I don't know either. Bottom line is that it looks unlikely at the moment that Soyuz will be flying to a Bigelow station.

But of course, if Bigelow puts his modules into a an orbit at about the same altitude and inclination as the ISS then all that could change...

Kourou does not have Soyuz spacecraft facilities, nor do I know of any plans to add them. If they did, we'd probably see a repeat of the huge delays the Soyuz rocket is experiencing from there.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: douglas100 on 08/17/2011 07:54 pm

While I can't find it now, I distinctly remember Bigelow stating that the
Kourou does not have Soyuz spacecraft facilities, nor do I know of any plans to add them. If they did, we'd probably see a repeat of the huge delays the Soyuz rocket is experiencing from there.

That's true. I was writing hypothetically.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/17/2011 07:56 pm
I'm curious if a Laguna Madre, Texas site would give Bigelow any advantages?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 08/17/2011 08:28 pm
I'm curious if a Laguna Madre, Texas site would give Bigelow any advantages?

Potentially water transit for very wide payloads to CCAFS.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/17/2011 09:01 pm
I'm curious if a Laguna Madre, Texas site would give Bigelow any advantages?

Potentially water transit for very wide payloads to CCAFS.
Laguna Madre/South Padre Island is the location of the rumored South Texas Spaceport.
Would the inclinations from there be of any advantage to Bigelow?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: go4mars on 08/17/2011 09:02 pm
I'm curious if a Laguna Madre, Texas site would give Bigelow any advantages?

It would be hard to ship BA-2100 or larger modules from Vegas to a launch pad.  If he built another factory along the gulf coast at some future date, the large canal systems near Laguna Madre could be very useful.   
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: manboy on 08/17/2011 10:08 pm
Pat, I thought the 330 was 20 tons. Do you have a source for the 23? The website doesn't say.
Wiki, BA-330 Page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BA_330)
Mass Between 20,000 kg and 23,000 kg
I was the one who put that number there, but if you look at the source than you realize that the number is from 2005 so I'm not sure how accurate of a figure it is.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: clongton on 08/17/2011 10:31 pm
Can anyone here explain how the Bigelow modules are folded in the deflated condition?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/17/2011 10:51 pm
Can anyone here explain how the Bigelow modules are folded in the deflated condition?
Anything we say will be a WAG.
That said, the "seams" on a BA-330 run the length of the module. It appears from the vid on Bigelow's home page that the "fold" is there, on the seam.
The vid does not actually show it expanding though.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Danderman on 08/18/2011 03:52 am
I'm curious if a Laguna Madre, Texas site would give Bigelow any advantages?

It would be hard to ship BA-2100 or larger modules from Vegas to a launch pad.  If he built another factory along the gulf coast at some future date, the large canal systems near Laguna Madre could be very useful.   

I am sure that there are people here who would believe Bob Bigelow if he said he was going to build a canal from Las Vegas to the sea.

Having said that, if the module is going to fit inside a real rocket, it should be transportable from Las Vegas to a launch site, without a canal.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 08/18/2011 04:55 am
If an Atlas V core is 3.81 meters and these cuts from their launch animation is any indication (I know!) then it looks like it takes the 5.4 meter  fairing. Wouldn't that make the folded module at least a meter smaller?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/18/2011 12:55 pm
If an Atlas V core is 3.81 meters and these cuts from their launch animation is any indication (I know!) then it looks like it takes the 5.4 meter  fairing. Wouldn't that make the folded module at least a meter smaller?

I'm not sure when this was last updated, or how accurate their numbers are.

Encyclopedia Astronautica; Nautilus (http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.space.policy/2008-05/msg00204.html)
Length: 13.70 m (44.90 ft).
Basic Diameter: 4.57 m (14.99 ft).
Maximum Diameter: 6.70 m (21.90 ft).
Habitable Volume: 330.00 m3.
Mass: 20,000 kg (44,000 lb).
Electrical System: Solar cells.

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 08/18/2011 01:52 pm
Per Payload's User Guide, the stock fairing has space for a maximum diameter of 4.65m.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: joek on 08/19/2011 01:25 am
Can anyone here explain how the Bigelow modules are folded in the deflated condition?

I believe they use the same geometry as TransHab, which is the image on the right below, thus the ~3:1 inflated:core diameter ratio.  The image on the left is from the proposed NASA ISS Inflatable Module Mission presentation, which has a lower inflated:core ration.  (From this post (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=15581.msg724756#msg724756).)

(http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15581.0;attach=284728;image)


edit: Not like TransHab, per Orbital Debris comment below.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Orbital Debris on 08/20/2011 04:03 am
Most of the gathering occurs in folds perpendicular to the long axis of the core. 

Current working mass of the BA330 is 43,000 lbm.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: docmordrid on 08/20/2011 05:19 am
Roughly 19.5 metric tons 'eh?

Atlas V Heavy, D-4H, Ariane 5ES, FH, Proton....
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/20/2011 01:58 pm
Most of the gathering occurs in folds perpendicular to the long axis of the core. 

Current working mass of the BA330 is 43,000 lbm.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if 3.5 metric tons have been trimmed off the launch weight won't it just have to be put back in on out fitting?
In the early pix, structures that ran parallel to the length were in the module. The recent ones show only empty space.
If an FH is used can that mass be put in on launch as opposed to scheduling a outfitting flight?
Or does Mr B. have something else in mind? An FH should be able to get 19.5 metric tons up to GTO, or at least a good portion of the way there.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: oldAtlas_Eguy on 08/20/2011 07:23 pm
There are a lot of options:
1) FH with Raptor should be able to get to LLO or L2
2) As well as SLS

The cheapest to most expensive is in the following order:
1) FH available NET 2013 (~$85M)
2) Proton currently available (~$95M)
3) Ariane currently available (~$120M)
4) DIVH currently available (~$140M)
5) SLS available NET 2017 (~$500M-$1B)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 08/20/2011 09:57 pm
There are a lot of options:
1) FH with Raptor should be able to get to LLO or L2
2) As well as SLS

The cheapest to most expensive is in the following order:
1) FH available NET 2013 (~$85M)
2) Proton currently available (~$95M)
3) Ariane currently available (~$120M)
4) DIVH currently available (~$140M)
5) SLS available NET 2017 (~$500M-$1B)

New Worlds had a quotation for Delta IV Heavy of 260M. And Falcon Heavy would be 130M, unless they can dual manifest, which I highly doubt due to volume restriction.
May be a more interesting question would be if they could fill it up with something extra, and how much would that cost. In other words, if they are going to a 28.5 350km orbit (for argument's sake), and the BA330 weights 19.5tn, but they can cram more weight inside, or in an additional enclosure pre docked, whatever extra weight they can put, is a cargo mission less. So the lower the USD/kg of the launcher, the more incentive they would have to actually fill it up.
Let's say that the Delta IV is 260M. But with the new RS-68A they can put 27tn to that orbit. So they would get a single BA330 plus 7.5tn of extra cargo.
Apparently each Dragon mission is 133M, for 6000kg of cargo. That's 22,166USD/kg. The Delta IV would have something like 9,630 USD/kg. So it would actually be cheaper, since they would be saving more than a whole Dragon mission. So that extra 7.5tn would be worth 166M. If those prices held for Bigelow, the effective cost of the DH would be closer to 94M. The FH would seem to be way cheaper, still. But I was just making the point.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Nomadd on 08/20/2011 10:12 pm
 Dragon missions also tend to deliver Dragons and CRS prices for delivered cargo have little to do with Bigelow or price for mass to LEO.
 I can't make heads or tails oiut of that last paragraph.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: baldusi on 08/20/2011 10:29 pm
I mean that if we base the cost of extra cargo and supplies of the CRS, as the price point for Bigelow, then they have to account each extra kg of cargo and supplies that they can put in the habitat launch, at what it will cost to them afterwards. Since cargo delivery requires a delivery ship with a multitude of restrictions, the cheapest cargo ever will be whatever they can cram in the initial launch. So, if they go with a bigger and more expensive launcher, but can put a lot of supplies in said launch, it would probably be way cheaper than a less expensive initial launcher (like Proton), but with no margin for extra cargo, since they will have to then buy a cargo mission for those same supplies.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: joek on 08/20/2011 10:34 pm
The other argument for launching the module as fully provisioned as possible is the need for a CBM and requisite RMS for large items.  Maybe Bigelow has plans to add those or has another solution planned?  Very little has been said about cargo resupply requirements.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/20/2011 11:50 pm
The other argument for launching the module as fully provisioned as possible is the need for a CBM and requisite RMS for large items.  Maybe Bigelow has plans to add those or has another solution planned?  Very little has been said about cargo resupply requirements.
If Bigelow proves out his business case, then there may be reason to build a dedicated 40 or 50 ton cargo container as well.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: joek on 08/20/2011 11:55 pm
The other argument for launching the module as fully provisioned as possible is the need for a CBM and requisite RMS for large items.  Maybe Bigelow has plans to add those or has another solution planned?  Very little has been said about cargo resupply requirements.
I Bigelow proves out his business case, then there may be reason to build a dedicated 40 or 50 ton cargo container as well.

The problem remains how to dock/berth and transfer cargo.  If it all has to be transferred through APAS/iLIDS, that will constrain the size/volume of components.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/21/2011 12:16 am
The other argument for launching the module as fully provisioned as possible is the need for a CBM and requisite RMS for large items.  Maybe Bigelow has plans to add those or has another solution planned?  Very little has been said about cargo resupply requirements.
I Bigelow proves out his business case, then there may be reason to build a dedicated 40 or 50 ton cargo container as well.

The problem remains how to dock/berth and transfer cargo.  If it all has to be transferred through APAS/iLIDS, that will constrain the size/volume of components.
I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Nomadd on 08/21/2011 12:18 am
 Gotcha Baldusi. Thanks.
 I'm pretty sure Spacex priced the CRS bid as high as they thought they could and still get the contract. It turned out they could have priced it even higher and still won, but nobody except them knows how low they could have gone. Once things have settled down, assuming the Dragons are good for several flights, the cargo cost should drop by 50%. Maybe more when they get the M1d going with the stretched F9 and can really max out the payload.

 It would be nice to find out what they could cram into a pre-launch BA330 if the structure and launcher could handle it. The modules don't expand that much. It seems like they should pretty much be able to fully configure and stock it if the room gained by inflating it is all people space.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: simonbp on 08/21/2011 02:15 pm
I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

It has; it's called CBM and is currently available on Dragon, HTV, and Cygnus spacecraft... ;)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: apace on 08/21/2011 02:18 pm
I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

It has; it's called CBM and is currently available on Dragon, HTV, and Cygnus spacecraft... ;)

For CBM you need a Remote Manipulator System.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/21/2011 02:33 pm
I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

It has; it's called CBM and is currently available on Dragon, HTV, and Cygnus spacecraft... ;)
50" is more like it. :)
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/21/2011 02:34 pm
I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

It has; it's called CBM and is currently available on Dragon, HTV, and Cygnus spacecraft... ;)

For CBM you need a Remote Manipulator System.
I'll bet a hybrid is already being considered.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 08/21/2011 03:07 pm
I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

It has; it's called CBM and is currently available on Dragon, HTV, and Cygnus spacecraft... ;)

For CBM you need a Remote Manipulator System.

I'll bet a hybrid is already being considered.

I doubt it.  Developing a whole new docking system would probably be prohibitatively expensive.  It would be simpler and cheaper to build a 'quick and dirty' RMS whose only role is to capture the cargo ship and attach it to the hull.

It is possible that the arm could be 'passive' in capture and the cargo ship will be remotely manoeuvred by the station crew to dock with the arm's end effector much like how a modern fighter docks with a refuelling boom.  This is doable - ISS already has this option for ATV and Progress freighters, IIRC.  A simple RMS arm would be reduced complexity as it could have just one plane of movement and only one function, to move the CBM-equipped freighter to its berthing port and later swing it out to its release point.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: douglas100 on 08/21/2011 03:49 pm

It is possible that the arm could be 'passive' in capture and the cargo ship will be remotely manoeuvred by the station crew to dock with the arm's end effector much like how a modern fighter docks with a refuelling boom.  This is doable - ISS already has this option for ATV and Progress freighters, IIRC.

Are you saying that there is currently an option on the ISS which allows Progress and ATV to be captured by the arm? If so, could you provide a link to this information, please?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: oldAtlas_Eguy on 08/21/2011 04:59 pm
I'm sure MDA would sell you a Canadarm or Canadarm2 real cheap.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Prober on 08/21/2011 06:19 pm
The other argument for launching the module as fully provisioned as possible is the need for a CBM and requisite RMS for large items.  Maybe Bigelow has plans to add those or has another solution planned?  Very little has been said about cargo resupply requirements.
If Bigelow proves out his business case, then there may be reason to build a dedicated 40 or 50 ton cargo container as well.

Doesn't Bigelow have his own supply ship designed?  Thought he only had need of low cost launching & people transport.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jorge on 08/21/2011 07:20 pm

It is possible that the arm could be 'passive' in capture and the cargo ship will be remotely manoeuvred by the station crew to dock with the arm's end effector much like how a modern fighter docks with a refuelling boom.  This is doable - ISS already has this option for ATV and Progress freighters, IIRC.

Are you saying that there is currently an option on the ISS which allows Progress and ATV to be captured by the arm? If so, could you provide a link to this information, please?

Yes, this sounds extremely dubious.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 08/21/2011 08:39 pm

It is possible that the arm could be 'passive' in capture and the cargo ship will be remotely manoeuvred by the station crew to dock with the arm's end effector much like how a modern fighter docks with a refuelling boom.  This is doable - ISS already has this option for ATV and Progress freighters, IIRC.

Are you saying that there is currently an option on the ISS which allows Progress and ATV to be captured by the arm? If so, could you provide a link to this information, please?

No, I am saying that there is an option on the Russian Segment to remotely fly at least Progress and possibly ATV (if it uses the same rendezvous control system - KURZ) to docking with the ISS if its on-board systems fail or it loses com with mission control.  This system could be used to rendezvous with the end effector of a simple single-plane movement arm which would then attach the CBM-equipped vehicle to the Bigelow module.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: hop on 08/21/2011 09:11 pm
No, I am saying that there is an option on the Russian Segment to remotely fly at least Progress and possibly ATV
AFAIK ATV only has an abort button, only Progress has TORU remote control.
Quote
This system could be used to rendezvous with the end effector of a simple single-plane movement arm which would then attach the CBM-equipped vehicle to the Bigelow module.
Definitely not a given that TORU would allow flying with sufficient stability and precision for this kind of thing.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: manboy on 08/21/2011 11:56 pm
I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

It has; it's called CBM and is currently available on Dragon, HTV, and Cygnus spacecraft... ;)

For CBM you need a Remote Manipulator System.
I'll bet a hybrid is already being considered.
Why would you need a hybrid when NDS can be used for both docking and berthing? All you would need is NDS but with a larger diameter.

The other argument for launching the module as fully provisioned as possible is the need for a CBM and requisite RMS for large items.  Maybe Bigelow has plans to add those or has another solution planned?  Very little has been said about cargo resupply requirements.
If Bigelow proves out his business case, then there may be reason to build a dedicated 40 or 50 ton cargo container as well.

Doesn't Bigelow have his own supply ship designed?  Thought he only had need of low cost launching & people transport.
No.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: ChefPat on 08/21/2011 11:58 pm

Doesn't Bigelow have his own supply ship designed?  Thought he only had need of low cost launching & people transport.
I've never heard of Bigelow designing a cargo ship/container. His plan appears to be, to let the launch providers supply that duty.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: joek on 08/22/2011 01:10 am
Doesn't Bigelow have his own supply ship designed?  Thought he only had need of low cost launching & people transport.
I've never heard of Bigelow designing a cargo ship/container. His plan appears to be, to let the launch providers supply that duty.

As far as I can tell, Bigelow has never discussed cargo requirements.  Given his stated nominal BA-330 6-person occupancy with 90-day rotation (4 crew flights/yr/module), additional cargo flights would appear necessary given the capabilities of likely crew vehicles.

If he reduces expected occupancy, it might be possible to deliver the required consumables for each occupant for a 90-day stay (volume permitting), albeit at the expense of revenue/profit.  E.g., figure in round numbers each empty seat provides sufficient consumables for one station occupant for 90 days, which is probably optimistic.

Anything above sustenance (e.g., R&D) would likely increase cargo mass requirements.  However, anything above sustenance is likely to be client-specific (unless maybe they're tourists), so until he knows what they want/need, it's difficult to plan for.  And thus is a problem for down-the-road, and why he hasn't talked about it?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jorge on 08/22/2011 01:17 am
I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

It has; it's called CBM and is currently available on Dragon, HTV, and Cygnus spacecraft... ;)

For CBM you need a Remote Manipulator System.
I'll bet a hybrid is already being considered.
Why would you need a hybrid when NDS can be used for both docking and berthing? All you would need is NDS but with a larger diameter.

No such thing. NDS is a spec, the spec includes the diameter, and the diameter is smaller than a CBM.

By definition, a docking system expanded to the size of CBM is no longer NDS-compliant.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jorge on 08/22/2011 01:19 am
No, I am saying that there is an option on the Russian Segment to remotely fly at least Progress and possibly ATV
AFAIK ATV only has an abort button, only Progress has TORU remote control.
Quote
This system could be used to rendezvous with the end effector of a simple single-plane movement arm which would then attach the CBM-equipped vehicle to the Bigelow module.
Definitely not a given that TORU would allow flying with sufficient stability and precision for this kind of thing.

Agreed, I don't think Ben's claim holds up.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: manboy on 08/22/2011 01:25 am
Doesn't Bigelow have his own supply ship designed?  Thought he only had need of low cost launching & people transport.
I've never heard of Bigelow designing a cargo ship/container. His plan appears to be, to let the launch providers supply that duty.
However, anything above sustenance is likely to be client-specific (unless maybe they're tourists), so until he knows what they want/need, it's difficult to plan for.  And thus is a problem for down-the-road, and why he hasn't talked about it?
He has.

I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

It has; it's called CBM and is currently available on Dragon, HTV, and Cygnus spacecraft... ;)

For CBM you need a Remote Manipulator System.
I'll bet a hybrid is already being considered.
Why would you need a hybrid when NDS can be used for both docking and berthing? All you would need is NDS but with a larger diameter.

No such thing. NDS is a spec, the spec includes the diameter, and the diameter is smaller than a CBM.

By definition, a docking system expanded to the size of CBM is no longer NDS-compliant.
You completely missed the point.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jorge on 08/22/2011 01:44 am
I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

It has; it's called CBM and is currently available on Dragon, HTV, and Cygnus spacecraft... ;)

For CBM you need a Remote Manipulator System.
I'll bet a hybrid is already being considered.
Why would you need a hybrid when NDS can be used for both docking and berthing? All you would need is NDS but with a larger diameter.

No such thing. NDS is a spec, the spec includes the diameter, and the diameter is smaller than a CBM.

By definition, a docking system expanded to the size of CBM is no longer NDS-compliant.
You completely missed the point.

Alright, enlighten me. What's your point? And how can an "NDS but with a larger diameter" still be an NDS, when the NDS *standard* specifies the diameter?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Comga on 08/22/2011 03:13 am
If an FH is used can that mass be put in on launch as opposed to scheduling a outfitting flight?

Precisely.  The plan illustrated in "The Beginning" or whatever Bigelow's brochure was called, showed huge amounts of extra technology, like autonomous rendezvous of the support equipment vehicle, with its own ADCS and comm, plus the docking equipment and connections.  This is beyond the ISS technology, where modules are installed by astronauts.  It is much simpler if he integrates on the ground and launches it assembled.

It is the old argument, launch large integrated systems or many pieces and assemble on orbit.  The argument is moot if a sufficiently large rocket exists.  Why would we talk about assembling an Apollo mission in Earth orbit if the Saturn V was in regular operation?  (Please don't pick at the obvious parts of this that are not the case.)  If SpaceX gets the Falcon Heavy flying, why use two smaller launches for the same hardware?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: manboy on 08/22/2011 03:37 am
I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

It has; it's called CBM and is currently available on Dragon, HTV, and Cygnus spacecraft... ;)

For CBM you need a Remote Manipulator System.
I'll bet a hybrid is already being considered.
Why would you need a hybrid when NDS can be used for both docking and berthing? All you would need is NDS but with a larger diameter.

No such thing. NDS is a spec, the spec includes the diameter, and the diameter is smaller than a CBM.

By definition, a docking system expanded to the size of CBM is no longer NDS-compliant.
You completely missed the point.

Alright, enlighten me. What's your point? And how can an "NDS but with a larger diameter" still be an NDS, when the NDS *standard* specifies the diameter?
My point is that you're arguing over technicalities. You wouldn't need a CBM hybrid because you could just take NDS and change the diameter. No it wouldn't technically be NDS but you could call it "NDS Large" and keep a large portion of the design the same.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jorge on 08/22/2011 04:01 am
I agree. At 32" APAS & iLIDS are too small for much heavy duty stuff. Something else will have to be designed 'if" there is a business case.

It has; it's called CBM and is currently available on Dragon, HTV, and Cygnus spacecraft... ;)

For CBM you need a Remote Manipulator System.
I'll bet a hybrid is already being considered.
Why would you need a hybrid when NDS can be used for both docking and berthing? All you would need is NDS but with a larger diameter.

No such thing. NDS is a spec, the spec includes the diameter, and the diameter is smaller than a CBM.

By definition, a docking system expanded to the size of CBM is no longer NDS-compliant.
You completely missed the point.

Alright, enlighten me. What's your point? And how can an "NDS but with a larger diameter" still be an NDS, when the NDS *standard* specifies the diameter?
My point is that you're arguing over technicalities.

NDS is a technical standard.

Quote
You wouldn't need a CBM hybrid because you could just take NDS and change the diameter. No it wouldn't technically be NDS but you could call it "NDS Large" and keep a large portion of the design the same.

For loose definitions of the word "large", anyway. Scaling has effects that ripple through the design.

And in any case, it's not proper to call it NDS once you do that. The name NDS implies compliance with a technical standard. What you're proposing is not "NDS", it's "a non-standard docking interface that may or may not share some design heritage with NDS".
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: manboy on 08/22/2011 04:14 am
You are a very frustrating person to talk to.

EDIT:  A larger diameter version of NDS would have a design heritage with NDS, I'm not going to argue this point.

I know that NDS is a specific diameter. What do I have to say to make you understand I'm talking about a larger version of NDS.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 08/22/2011 04:16 am

For loose definitions of the word "large", anyway. Scaling has effects that ripple through the design.

And in any case, it's not proper to call it NDS once you do that. The name NDS implies compliance with a technical standard. What you're proposing is not "NDS", it's "a non-standard docking interface that may or may not share some design heritage with NDS".

So write a proposal for NDS 2.0
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jorge on 08/22/2011 04:25 am
You are a very frustrating person to talk to.

Ditto.

Quote
EDIT:  A larger diameter version of NDS would have a design heritage with NDS, I'm not going to argue this point.

I know that NDS is a specific diameter. What do I have to say to make you understand I'm talking about a larger version of NDS.

I understood from the beginning. Just stop freaking calling it NDS. NDS is not a generic term for "docking system".
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: manboy on 08/22/2011 04:36 am

Quote
EDIT:  A larger diameter version of NDS would have a design heritage with NDS, I'm not going to argue this point.

I know that NDS is a specific diameter. What do I have to say to make you understand I'm talking about a larger version of NDS.

I understood from the beginning. Just stop freaking calling it NDS. NDS is not a generic term for "docking system".
I'm not talking about the Gemini docking system, the old Russian drogue and probe, the new Russian drogue and probe, the American drogue and probe, APAS-75, APAS-89 or APAS-95. I'm talking about a larger version of NDS. If we were talking about a scaled up version of a 787 than of course the new plane wouldn't be called a 787 but you just seem to be stuck on that and unable to talk about the concept.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jorge on 08/22/2011 04:39 am

Quote
EDIT:  A larger diameter version of NDS would have a design heritage with NDS, I'm not going to argue this point.

I know that NDS is a specific diameter. What do I have to say to make you understand I'm talking about a larger version of NDS.

I understood from the beginning. Just stop freaking calling it NDS. NDS is not a generic term for "docking system".
I'm not talking about the Gemini docking system, the old Russian drogue and probe, the new Russian drogue and probe, the American drogue and probe, APAS-75, APAS-89 or APAS-95. I'm talking about a larger version of NDS. If we were talking about a scaled up version of a 787 than of course the new plane wouldn't be called a 787 but you just seem to be stuck on that and unable to talk about the concept.

I can talk the concept. I also understand that once a mechanism is modified so that it's not mechanically compatible (as you're proposing), it's not a good idea to keep the same name.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: manboy on 08/22/2011 04:42 am

Quote
EDIT:  A larger diameter version of NDS would have a design heritage with NDS, I'm not going to argue this point.

I know that NDS is a specific diameter. What do I have to say to make you understand I'm talking about a larger version of NDS.

I understood from the beginning. Just stop freaking calling it NDS. NDS is not a generic term for "docking system".
I'm not talking about the Gemini docking system, the old Russian drogue and probe, the new Russian drogue and probe, the American drogue and probe, APAS-75, APAS-89 or APAS-95. I'm talking about a larger version of NDS. If we were talking about a scaled up version of a 787 than of course the new plane wouldn't be called a 787 but you just seem to be stuck on that and unable to talk about the concept.

I can talk the concept. I also understand that once a mechanism is modified so that it's not mechanically compatible (as you're proposing), it's not a good idea to keep the same name.
I never said they would be compatible.

You wouldn't keep the same name, but for the purpose of the conversation you would just call it a scaled up NDS or "NDS but with a larger diameter". You don't have to come up with a unique name just to talk about the concept.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jorge on 08/22/2011 04:50 am

Quote
EDIT:  A larger diameter version of NDS would have a design heritage with NDS, I'm not going to argue this point.

I know that NDS is a specific diameter. What do I have to say to make you understand I'm talking about a larger version of NDS.

I understood from the beginning. Just stop freaking calling it NDS. NDS is not a generic term for "docking system".
I'm not talking about the Gemini docking system, the old Russian drogue and probe, the new Russian drogue and probe, the American drogue and probe, APAS-75, APAS-89 or APAS-95. I'm talking about a larger version of NDS. If we were talking about a scaled up version of a 787 than of course the new plane wouldn't be called a 787 but you just seem to be stuck on that and unable to talk about the concept.

I can talk the concept. I also understand that once a mechanism is modified so that it's not mechanically compatible (as you're proposing), it's not a good idea to keep the same name.
I never said they would be compatible.

You wouldn't keep the same name, but for the purpose of the conversation you would just call it a scaled up NDS or "NDS but with a larger diameter". You don't have to come up with a unique name just to talk about the concept.

How about just calling it a "docking system"?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: manboy on 08/22/2011 04:55 am

Quote
EDIT:  A larger diameter version of NDS would have a design heritage with NDS, I'm not going to argue this point.

I know that NDS is a specific diameter. What do I have to say to make you understand I'm talking about a larger version of NDS.

I understood from the beginning. Just stop freaking calling it NDS. NDS is not a generic term for "docking system".
I'm not talking about the Gemini docking system, the old Russian drogue and probe, the new Russian drogue and probe, the American drogue and probe, APAS-75, APAS-89 or APAS-95. I'm talking about a larger version of NDS. If we were talking about a scaled up version of a 787 than of course the new plane wouldn't be called a 787 but you just seem to be stuck on that and unable to talk about the concept.

I can talk the concept. I also understand that once a mechanism is modified so that it's not mechanically compatible (as you're proposing), it's not a good idea to keep the same name.
I never said they would be compatible.

You wouldn't keep the same name, but for the purpose of the conversation you would just call it a scaled up NDS or "NDS but with a larger diameter". You don't have to come up with a unique name just to talk about the concept.

How about just calling it a "docking system"?
Because
I'm not talking about the Gemini docking system, the old Russian drogue and probe, the new Russian drogue and probe, the American drogue and probe, APAS-75, APAS-89 or APAS-95. I'm talking about a larger version of NDS.

EDIT: Maybe you don't realize how different these systems are from one another and that's what you're getting hung up on?
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Jorge on 08/22/2011 05:38 am

Quote
EDIT:  A larger diameter version of NDS would have a design heritage with NDS, I'm not going to argue this point.

I know that NDS is a specific diameter. What do I have to say to make you understand I'm talking about a larger version of NDS.

I understood from the beginning. Just stop freaking calling it NDS. NDS is not a generic term for "docking system".
I'm not talking about the Gemini docking system, the old Russian drogue and probe, the new Russian drogue and probe, the American drogue and probe, APAS-75, APAS-89 or APAS-95. I'm talking about a larger version of NDS. If we were talking about a scaled up version of a 787 than of course the new plane wouldn't be called a 787 but you just seem to be stuck on that and unable to talk about the concept.

I can talk the concept. I also understand that once a mechanism is modified so that it's not mechanically compatible (as you're proposing), it's not a good idea to keep the same name.
I never said they would be compatible.

You wouldn't keep the same name, but for the purpose of the conversation you would just call it a scaled up NDS or "NDS but with a larger diameter". You don't have to come up with a unique name just to talk about the concept.

How about just calling it a "docking system"?
Because
I'm not talking about the Gemini docking system, the old Russian drogue and probe, the new Russian drogue and probe, the American drogue and probe, APAS-75, APAS-89 or APAS-95. I'm talking about a larger version of NDS.

EDIT: Maybe you don't realize how different these systems are from one another and that's what you're getting hung up on?

Sigh. Of course I realize how different they are. I've only been doing this for a living since Shuttle-Mir started in 1992. Maybe you don't realize all those systems except the various APAS systems have different names *for a reason*? The fact that some of the APAS systems are mechanically compatible with each other while some aren't is a pain in the butt. NASA tolerated that for APAS because they're Russian systems, they created them, they had the right to name them, and if NASA used different names for them it would just create even more confusion.

NASA's intent with NDS is to produce a single, mechanically compatible docking system. So hopefully you should understand that for Bigelow to develop an incompatible system and call it "NDS" would defeat the purpose. The "Kleenex-ification" of the NDS term would be a bad thing.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Geron on 08/22/2011 06:01 am
Does anybody think that BEAM will be one of the demonstrations selected for funding tommorrow or later on this week?

I guess its not quite enough money to see the thing all the way through but if it got awards every year for a few years then maybe we could see the inflatable addition to ISS by 2015.

Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: manboy on 08/22/2011 06:01 am
Sigh. Of course I realize how different they are. I've only been doing this for a living since Shuttle-Mir started in 1992. Maybe you don't realize all those systems except the various APAS systems have different names *for a reason*? The fact that some of the APAS systems are mechanically compatible with each other while some aren't is a pain in the butt. NASA tolerated that for APAS because they're Russian systems, they created them, they had the right to name them, and if NASA used different names for them it would just create even more confusion.

NASA's intent with NDS is to produce a single, mechanically compatible docking system. So hopefully you should understand that for Bigelow to develop an incompatible system and call it "NDS" would defeat the purpose. The "Kleenex-ification" of the NDS term would be a bad thing.
You wouldn't call this new docking system "NDS" but you would borrow pieces of the NDS design (low impact dockings, electromagnets, the guide pedals, data transfer cable connections...) and incorporate it into this new, larger design. I'm not saying NASA or Bigelow should do this or should it replace the current sized NDS.

But it could be used replace the CBM (to allow the transfer of physically large payloads between a cargo vehicle and space station) because it would give the larger diameter without the use of an RMS.
Title: Re: What's Happening at Bigelow?
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/22/2011 06:42 pm
Needs a new thread. Locking (not deleting) and will start the new one soon.