Author Topic: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!  (Read 257295 times)

Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1680 on: 06/01/2012 03:36 PM »
Mike griffin among others, who is by the romney's space policy advisor, has been quoted as saying

"well it should fly at least 6 to 7 times more before we let crew on it" ,delaying, retoric, ect. the usual.

Well remember, COTS was really Mike Griffin's baby in the first place...

Also, strictly interpreted, 6 more flights is where they'll likely be by the end of 2014. Since the crew test flight wouldn't happen until 2015 anyway that makes sense.



Yes but the rhetoric from the Griffin/Shelby camp was essentially the same bacon sandwich we have heard before "well no no no not safe we MUST delay them as much as possible can't risk our giant pork rocket...."

You watch. Lets assume some hypotheticals here:

Assume that Mitt Romney wins the election. Assume also that he is not smart enough to understand how spaceflight actually works, so he takes whatever Mike Griffin says at face value, as opposed to having him on the team as a politcal boost to the right wing base (which is probably why he is there). This is highly unlikely, because Romney is not that stupid, but assume this for the sake of this argument.

What would happen is basically the end of commercial spaceflight. NASA would begin throwing up as many regulatory road blocks to continued missions as they possibly could come up with. There would be no commercial crew, or perhaps only one flight. The usual suspects would criticize commercial as being the problem and blame them for everything. In the mean time SLS would grow 15x as big as it is now and would not be ready until 2055 or something ridiculous like that. Liberty would be the new launcher of choice for NASA which * I guess* would technically count as something partially commercial (not really).


I know firsthand what the Griffin policy was while he ran the show. And trust me. you do not want to go back to that, ever.

The only things he did that were of any benefit were the fact that the shuttle program ran without another accident under him and the COTS/CRS programs, which largely happened in spite of him because, after initially supporting them he publicly railed against his own program on the hill and at various events.

Aside from that Mike Griffin was the single most destructive individual to American Spaceflight in history, with perhaps the exception of Nixon when he cancelled the Apollo program and all of its planned follow on's, although STS ended up bringing us unheard of advances in all realms of technology and science, so in the end in spite of his decision things worked out alright.


Griffin was to blame for why we ended up where we were in 2010, and why we are where we are now, with Mr. Obama in part who did not seek to extend shuttle despite being handed every possible opportunity to do so.

If you don't believe me go back and read the Direct threads as well as numerous articles written by Chris from 2007-2010. Everything is there as clear as day.

Or you could just ask Jim who would be happy to tell you how bad Griffin actually was.


The last thing I will say is that, for those who didn't know or who forget, Griffin had a policy of firing any engineer or specialist who disagreed with him, especially those who knew what the lower cost and ideal solution was for the CXP LV architecture or anyone who supported commercial HLV's. Many people quietly were swept out of the agency by him and his minions. Never forget that.



As this is a party thread I won't bring this issue up again. Lets enjoy the moment were in because it may not last.
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Offline Chandonn

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Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1681 on: 06/01/2012 03:40 PM »
What is the "blind squirrels" reference??
Based on the cliche: "even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then"
An oft-repeated Jim-ism:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=22041.msg667671#msg667671
[EDIT: that reference took some serious searching!]

wow. So SpaceX will be considered "blind squirrels" until their launch success rate surpasses 90% including the first three failures. That means, if they achieve a 100% launch success here on out, the 30th launch (27th success) will be when SpaceX earns it's eyesight. Looking forward to it!

As a company... yes.   But by the same standard: Falcon 9 alone already has a 100% success rate. ;)

Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1682 on: 06/01/2012 03:41 PM »
Faces today…

SpaceX   8)   NASA  :)  Capitol Hill  >:(

Me ;D


This party thread was made for you! :D

Faces today Update…

SpaceX  8)   NASA :)  Capitol Hill >:(  Roscosmos :o

Me  ;D


Agreed.

Mike griffin among others, who is by the romney's space policy advisor, has been quoted as saying

"well it should fly at least 6 to 7 times more before we let crew on it" ,delaying, retoric, ect. the usual.

Anyway does not give me alot of hope for commercial when a presidential candidate that has a fairly good chance of winning has mike griffin advising him on space policy, and griffin once again proves how much of an inaccurate he is.


This mission is ground breaking, and it has really opened a new era, now sit back and watch as the usual suspects on the hill try and sabotage it.
One serving of crow for the man please…  ;)

I don't think Mike actually deserves a serving of crow. More like Andy Pazstor, and Sen. Shelby.

~Jon

That's 35% of the problem. The other 65% was griffin.
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Offline punder

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Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1683 on: 06/01/2012 04:05 PM »
The TPIS vidio juxtaposing Griffin quotes with SpaceX successes is hilarious.  Too bad about the typo in the title screen.

My impression is that COTS was a political "bone" thrown by Griffin while he concentrated on Apollo-on-you-know-what.  I don't think he actually expected all the entrants to fail, but Constellation was 99% of his ballgame and COTS was a tiny little sideshow.

Wow, that's a lot of metaphors, but you see what I mean.

This has been gnawed to death, but it still blows my mind how a really, really smart guy can make such a huge and destructive mistake.  It happened to my company--new CEO of the parent company comes in, gets momentarily frakked at the top management of our company (which was the cash cow for the whole operation) and summarily fires them.  They go form a new company that is now our dangerous competitor, and they know their stuff.  Meanwhile, parent-company board realizes CEO is an (starts with i, ends with t, has dio in the middle), so he's gone.  But he's left a catastrophe behind him.  Same with Griffin.

At the time, I thought Griffin was a perfect choice.  Shame on me.
« Last Edit: 06/01/2012 04:08 PM by punder »

Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1684 on: 06/01/2012 04:11 PM »
The TPIS vidio juxtaposing Griffin quotes with SpaceX successes is hilarious.  Too bad about the typo in the title screen.

My impression is that COTS was a political "bone" thrown by Griffin while he concentrated on Apollo-on-you-know-what.  I don't think he actually expected all the entrants to fail, but Constellation was 99% of his ballgame and COTS was a tiny little sideshow.

Wow, that's a lot of metaphors, but you see what I mean.

This has been gnawed to death, but it still blows my mind how a really, really smart guy can make such a huge and destructive mistake.  It happened to my company--new CEO of the parent company comes in, gets momentarily frakked at the top management of our company (which was the cash cow for the whole operation) and summarily fires them.  They go form a new company that is now our dangerous competitor, and they know their stuff.  Meanwhile, parent-company board realizes CEO is an (starts with i, ends with t, has dio in the middle), so he's gone.  But he's left a catastrophe behind him.  Same with Griffin.

At the time, I thought Griffin was a perfect choice.  Shame on me.


I do believe that he fully intended for the entrants to fail, and yes it was a political bone. The purpose was basically to distract congress and the president by making it look as if everything was fine, so that he and his buddies in Alabama could continue what in my mind amounts to criminally negligent thuggery and keep firing and shutting up anyone with a grain of common sense in the agency.


It still boggles my mind to this date that there was not a congressional investigation into Griffin's activities specifically in addition to the Augustine commission, a legal investigation that is, as well as one into Senator Shelby's office. Someone should have gone to jail for what happened, after all griffin essentially lied to congress on multiple occasions as did the senator from Alabama.


As for the CEO analogy that is a really good comparison, but there is one major difference I think, and that is that Griffin was not an idiot, just a maniac. He knew full well what it was he wanted and how to get it, and he didn't care if it worked or not he wanted what he wanted and by god he was going to get it.

What he really wanted was to be called the next Von Braun, that was the whole point of building "Apollo on steroids". It was a quest for personal glory basically. Like I said, maniac. But not stupid. I think that's the main difference.


But I do admit he made a number of bone-headed statements and decisions in the process :)

« Last Edit: 06/01/2012 04:16 PM by FinalFrontier »
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Offline Lars_J

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Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1685 on: 06/01/2012 05:23 PM »
The TPIS vidio juxtaposing Griffin quotes with SpaceX successes is hilarious.  Too bad about the typo in the title screen.

Which video is this??

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1686 on: 06/01/2012 05:27 PM »
The TPIS vidio juxtaposing Griffin quotes with SpaceX successes is hilarious.  Too bad about the typo in the title screen.

Which video is this??
Had to look for it, too... Note: if you are referring to a post several pages back, please quote it (even if just truncated)!
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1687 on: 06/01/2012 05:41 PM »
The TPIS vidio juxtaposing Griffin quotes with SpaceX successes is hilarious.  Too bad about the typo in the title screen.

Which video is this??
Had to look for it, too... Note: if you are referring to a post several pages back, please quote it (even if just truncated)!



That really is perfectly done. Didn't know Andrew had posted that congrats to TPIS on a fantastic video ;D


And thanks for pointing out the obvious about Griffin, not many people really know about the guy or what he has done so the more eyes you can draw to that record the better we will all be for it.
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Offline Lars_J

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Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1688 on: 06/01/2012 05:42 PM »
LOL, I love that video, that brought a smile to my face. :) - As did the music, being a long-time DM fan.

Offline Chris Bergin

Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1689 on: 06/01/2012 05:49 PM »
Remember what happens when politics get thrown over here.

Party thread, so no moderation, but this is not an excuse for politics. So the point (a good one) has been made, and now this is line. No politics after this post please.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1690 on: 06/01/2012 05:58 PM »
A guy complaining that we were using unproven rockets when he basically guaranteed that with the way he set up COTS--i.e. punishing those who used the existing EELVs. This is why lots of people don't trust Griffin farther than they can throw him. It really seems like he was expecting (and setting up) COTS/CRS to fail. (That's the impression, true or not.)

But I wouldn't worry TOO much about SpaceX's (or commercial crew's) political enemies. Politicians got where they were for a reason, and that includes being quick to jump on the bandwagon of clear success and try to make it look like they supported it all along. And many of those who are too stiff-necked to do that are retiring.

By the way, I'm excited for Orbital's Cygnus launch, too! It'll be quite spacious, especially the later versions (and they are quite far along in building them, if I recall correctly...). AND MSL's arrival! WOOOO! August and September--with SpX CRS-1--may be quite an interesting couple of months! Of course, right when we move to another city and I start graduate school...

Party on!
« Last Edit: 06/01/2012 07:48 PM by Robotbeat »
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline mr. mark

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Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1691 on: 06/01/2012 06:28 PM »
I'm a big supporter of Antares and Cygnus. Can't wait to get their party thread started as well!

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1692 on: 06/01/2012 07:08 PM »
I am just shocked, shocked I tell you that Chris did not get a SeaLaunch party thread going last night!
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Offline mrmandias

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Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1693 on: 06/01/2012 07:17 PM »

That having been said, he does usually seem to ignore the question about what will get him excited - that is to ask Jim, what's the smallest thing on their to-do list that you would consider historic?  Private crew -> ISS?  Retrothruster landing?  1st stage flyback?  ...Mars?

*microphone in face*

Historic and what gets me excited is two different things.  I would be excited if Spacex launched a spacecraft that I was working on.

As for Spacex is plans (I am going to add to your list)

Falcon 1, Falcon 9, C1, C2/3, CRS1, Private crew,  Retrothruster landing, 1st stage flyback, etc are too incremental to be giddy about for one lanch.  STS-1 was everything at once, not to mention the gap since ASTP.  First Pegasus was cool (it was unique).  First Titan IV (since I worked on the payload).  Apollo missions since I was young and spaceflight was still unique.  First Spacehab mission, since I was intimately involved (that was a day long blur after launch).  First Atlas V, Delta IV, Falcon 9, not so much since they did not stray to far from standard rocket configurations. (after all, I have see more than 1/2 of the shuttle launches and maybe over 200 ELV launches)



I will be giddy when SpaceX launches successfully at least 8 times in one year.  That would be mind-blowing for me.  And if more launches, more mindblowing.

Edit: without huge cost increases.
« Last Edit: 06/01/2012 07:18 PM by mrmandias »

Offline Nomadd

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Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1694 on: 06/01/2012 07:28 PM »
Remember what happens when politics get thrown over here.

Party thread, so no moderation, but this is not an excuse for politics. So the point (a good one) has been made, and now this is line. No politics after this post please.
I managed to make inappropriate comments twice to discover that the person I commented on frequented the thread. I'm a little slow sometimes, but finally caught on. Political rants do no good and can do harm.
« Last Edit: 06/01/2012 07:29 PM by Nomadd »

Offline Jason1701

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Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1695 on: 06/01/2012 07:30 PM »
Mr. Mark, did you get your tour yet?

Offline Tea Party Space Czar

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Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1696 on: 06/01/2012 07:45 PM »
We fixed the typo... and we appologize for the typo.  Here is the updated video.  Please make sure this makes the rounds.



Thank you so much and we all at TEA Party in Space hope you advocate for sound space policy that is fiscally responsible, limits government, and opens the free market in space.

Respectfully,
Andrew Gasser
TEA Party in Space
President, TEA Party in Space

What we want and what we can afford are two very different things.

Demanding space policy that is fiscally responsible and utilizing the free market system.

Offline mr. mark

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Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1697 on: 06/01/2012 07:51 PM »
I was told we could not go until after COTS 2 operations were complete. So it will be soon for sure. Looking forward to it. I am going to write a first hand  account of my tour along with some pics. I'll hopefully post it here.

Offline Lars_J

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Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1698 on: 06/01/2012 07:57 PM »
Andrew - the video would probably be improved by showing shots of the astronauts opening and unloading Dragon. (the literal laundry delivery) Great job, though.

Offline Tea Party Space Czar

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Re: OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!
« Reply #1699 on: 06/01/2012 08:08 PM »
Andrew - the video would probably be improved by showing shots of the astronauts opening and unloading Dragon. (the literal laundry delivery) Great job, though.
We agree Lars...  This was our first video and we did rush on this a little.  The main thrust of the video was to compare and contrast Dr. Griffin to the successes of SpaceX in spite of what he has testified to, and others like him.  We feel we met that objective.

However, this video is bigger than SpaceX.  I cannot wait to do a video like this on Sierra Nevada... or even... dare I say... ATK.

SpaceX was first, but I would submit all of the commercial providers were riding with Falcon 9 and Dragon.  Everyone gained from COT 2+ in my estimation.

Luckily for us... there will be more awesome missions and Depeche Mode has a lot of songs that will really "Drive it Home". 

Respectfully,
Andrew Gasser
TEA Party in Space

PS If you haven't already,  I would sincerely hope you all swing by our website and sign up for our newsletter.  It is non-partisan and we are going to be doing some amazing things soon.
President, TEA Party in Space

What we want and what we can afford are two very different things.

Demanding space policy that is fiscally responsible and utilizing the free market system.

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