Author Topic: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond  (Read 12950 times)

Offline Jim

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Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #20 on: 07/05/2012 01:30 pm »

A 100 ton mission, flown with 1 man on and two rocket launches and costing $50 billion is much more likely to survive to the launch pad. The scientific value is irrelevant. The purpose is to prove that humans can get to another planet and come back alive. That's a huge thing by itself. If it is science you want, mass produce probes and fly 10 probes a year. It's cheaper, faster and more scientifically productive.

Wrong, unsubstantiated opinion.

Offline Jim

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Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #21 on: 07/05/2012 01:31 pm »

Selecting small astronauts really is not that extraordinary. If it means a 25% reduction mass that's a big deal. So why shouldn't it be discussed?


Because it is a idoitic topic for an idoitic mission

Offline DMeader

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Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #22 on: 07/05/2012 02:47 pm »

4)  Klingons are big and mean.  A petite size 0 astronaut living on 1200 calories a day is likely to get her butt whipped.


Not if she has her phaser at hand.

(giving this thread the gravitas it truly deserves.)

Offline Nathan

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Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #23 on: 07/05/2012 03:27 pm »
Could just send fewer people.

This really is a stupid thread but the space bears line was a cracker!
Given finite cash, if we want to go to Mars then we should go to Mars.

Offline bad_astra

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Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #24 on: 07/05/2012 04:51 pm »
As we do not have the ability to begin mass cloning Gus Grissom yet, I have nothing to add to this perspicacious thread.
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Offline Downix

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Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #25 on: 07/05/2012 10:23 pm »
In the Battletech sci-fi universe, the genetically altered "Clans" had evolved their pilots into short stature, on average 4'10". By being smaller they could make their aerospace fighters smaller as well.

That's what crossed my mind when I saw this.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline Suzy

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Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #26 on: 09/02/2012 07:53 am »
Fems in Space
I'd qualify in height (or lack of) if nothing else!  :)

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #27 on: 09/02/2012 10:57 pm »
Quote
Spacesuits are smaller, lighter as well.

The mass savings here may not be significant.  Cost will be approximately the same.   Even so, one does wonder a bit at the premise of the OP.  There would be NSoV.  And qualified ones too.

My main objection would be that there should be no a priori restrictions; are we to attempt colonization with a siaed based elite?  Some other objections are obvious and have some merit, but really only pertain to the early stages, which is where we're at at the moment:

Quote
A.  You have eliminated anyone with real piloting skills.
2.  You have eliminated most men
iii.  the few of the remaining will not have a cross section of skills required

A. Piloting skills can be learned.  The time frame for the need is sufficiently far in the future.
2. Which may be a feature rather than a bug, as long as irrelevant features can be discussed.
iii. There are NSoV and plenty of time for education and training.

Aquanaut made essentially the same argument, using slightly different words.  We got what we got.  We can accomodate all sizes, if we're willing, and if the talent is there.

Pragmatically speaking, it is easier for a petite woman to sit in the structure of my seat, (I'm 6'-2", 180 pounds) than the other way around.  The only savings would be the marginal ones of food.
As to space bears. Citation please?

As to eating a lot of Wheaties, that has no essential bearing on size.  Physical prowess is not needed to operate any servo driven tools or devices.  Whacking a stuck nut on a solar tracking mirror is a different thing.

As to Klingons being big and mean, there should be no problems in this department, since they would stay away.  After all, "Earth women are so repulsive".

As to whether the issue should be discussed.  Of course it should, assuming the discussion is among adults who refuse polarization.

And the suggestion of a 100 ton mission with one astro to Mars is borderline nonsense.

As to Suzy's blue avatar, blue is my favorite color.  Plus, having a tail could be very useful.

Ultimately, I'd say the idea has no merit.

Any questions?  Please hesitate to call.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline mrmandias

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Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #28 on: 09/19/2012 09:00 pm »
Worth discussing, I guess, though I suspect the food savings and other mass savings are less than might appear.

One consideration is that while women are generally smaller, the public is much more tolerant of risk for men than it is of risk for women.

Offline ThereIWas3

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Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #29 on: 11/06/2012 06:31 pm »
Pamela Melroy (Commander STS-120) barely met the minimum height requirements.   And to be a shuttle commander you have to have been a test pilot.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #30 on: 11/06/2012 08:26 pm »
As we ponder when, how and how much it'll cost to do a Mission to Mars -- or for that matter to other destinations beyond LEO -- the predominant problem has always been the mass of the spacecraft and the mass of the consumables on a long mission. Which brings us to a very interesting question...

Why not recruit small astronauts?


A typical Astronaut weighs 195 lbs and consumes about 3.8 pounds of food on the ISS. He also measures about a good 5 feet 11 inchs tall and a spacecraft, berthing spaces, etc must be size for that.

If we are bending over backwards for a few extra Isp on the engines, trying to same 200kg off a 1 ton aeroshell. Why aren't we looking at build the mission around very small astronauts?

Let's consider this... a 5' 2" height limit, 95 lbs body weight limit for the astronauts being recruited for BEO missions. Yes, a Petite Size 0 Astronaut -- a small framed but otherwise healthy adult. The space craft can be 20~30% lighter, food consumption is down to about 2.2 pounds a day. Spacesuits are smaller, lighter as well. If you are trying to get back up to orbit from Mars, the ascent vehicle can be notably smaller as well. Yes, this is definitely the 10th percentile in human sizes, but it is not that rare and I am pretty sure more than enough can be recruited. And, it is arguably easier to do this than to put 45 tons instead of 30 tons in Martian orbit.
minimum height on Soyuz for female Cosmonauts is I think roughly 4'10" give or take a bit.

Offline pauljeday

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Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #31 on: 11/24/2012 12:01 am »
Hello all,

(In case some mistake this as a joke it is not. I am being serious here)

I'm new to these forums, but have been interested in space missions for most of my life. I have pondered many times when (if at all) we will go back to the Moon and on to Mars. Recently it struck me that there is a very simple solution to the rather high cost of sending humans into space on extended missions.

Send small people (or people of small stature).

Advantages:
1. They take up far less room.
2. They breathe less oxygen (at least that's my understanding).
3. They are every bit as capable as "normal" height people.
4. They can go places few others can go (literally).
5. It would captivate the world's attention and help elevated the stature (no pun intended) of little people in the eyes of the community.
6. The equipment, machinery, vehicles, space suits etc. would all be reduced in size and therefore weight.
7. Theoretically, the cost could almost be halved if NASA thinks imaginatively and takes a chance that the public and the world is ready to accept that true representation is not about the size, but the spirit of exploration.

Disadvantages:
There are none, except to say that some people are prejudiced and it is this prejudice which will not allow anyone to even talk about it, let alone suggest it.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: 11/24/2012 12:03 am by pauljeday »

Offline Andrew_W

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Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #32 on: 11/24/2012 12:11 am »
Does 5' 8" count as small stature?
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Offline Patchouli

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Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #33 on: 11/24/2012 12:28 am »
The mass of everything else is so big the savings are not as big as you'd think they would be.
Even at present launch prices the cost of the payload can sometimes exceed the cost of the launch by an order of power see MSL.

Then there's the lack of medical data on how people of below normal stature react to long term space flight.
All we got data on is typical normal adult sized humans.
« Last Edit: 11/24/2012 12:29 am by Patchouli »

Offline pauljeday

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Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #34 on: 11/24/2012 12:33 am »
Hi, thanks for replying.

There is still time to collect such data and I disagree that the infrastructure would not be reduced. It's not so much a question of what is reduced, but what else could be included because of the space savings in the modules. If we take one example, a vehicle, it doesn't take much to imagine how much smaller and lighter they would need to be and that you could include much more equipment on the same flight, thereby effectively reducing the cost.

Offline Chris Bergin

Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #35 on: 11/24/2012 12:44 am »
Welcome to the site's forum pauljeday. Merged with the previous thread, but your thread title was the best - so all renamed into this title.
« Last Edit: 11/24/2012 12:45 am by Chris Bergin »
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Offline mduncan36

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Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #36 on: 11/24/2012 01:02 am »
Has anyone looked into possible metabolic differences among the various races and ethnic backgrounds? While we are being selective here why not see if Kenyan runners or Chinese gymnasts perform better?

In my mind this is a bottomless pit of selection. You reach a point where robots look like the best choice of all.

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #37 on: 11/24/2012 01:52 am »
I wouldnt want to see a launch architecture designed to only fit a small subset of the population. That isnt the same as saying weight should not be a factor in astronaut selection though.

What proportion of the real cost of an astronaut is their weight?

Offline manboy

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Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #38 on: 11/24/2012 03:29 am »
As we ponder when, how and how much it'll cost to do a Mission to Mars -- or for that matter to other destinations beyond LEO -- the predominant problem has always been the mass of the spacecraft and the mass of the consumables on a long mission. Which brings us to a very interesting question...

Why not recruit small astronauts?


A typical Astronaut weighs 195 lbs and consumes about 3.8 pounds of food on the ISS. He also measures about a good 5 feet 11 inchs tall and a spacecraft, berthing spaces, etc must be size for that.

If we are bending over backwards for a few extra Isp on the engines, trying to same 200kg off a 1 ton aeroshell. Why aren't we looking at build the mission around very small astronauts?

Let's consider this... a 5' 2" height limit, 95 lbs body weight limit for the astronauts being recruited for BEO missions. Yes, a Petite Size 0 Astronaut -- a small framed but otherwise healthy adult. The space craft can be 20~30% lighter, food consumption is down to about 2.2 pounds a day. Spacesuits are smaller, lighter as well. If you are trying to get back up to orbit from Mars, the ascent vehicle can be notably smaller as well. Yes, this is definitely the 10th percentile in human sizes, but it is not that rare and I am pretty sure more than enough can be recruited. And, it is arguably easier to do this than to put 45 tons instead of 30 tons in Martian orbit.
minimum height on Soyuz for female Cosmonauts is I think roughly 4'10" give or take a bit.
All two of them?
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Offline Nathan

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Re: Send People of Small Stature to the Moon and Beyond
« Reply #39 on: 11/24/2012 04:29 am »
Hello all,

(In case some mistake this as a joke it is not. I am being serious here)

I'm new to these forums, but have been interested in space missions for most of my life. I have pondered many times when (if at all) we will go back to the Moon and on to Mars. Recently it struck me that there is a very simple solution to the rather high cost of sending humans into space on extended missions.

Send small people (or people of small stature).

Advantages:
1. They take up far less room.
2. They breathe less oxygen (at least that's my understanding).
3. They are every bit as capable as "normal" height people.
4. They can go places few others can go (literally).
5. It would captivate the world's attention and help elevated the stature (no pun intended) of little people in the eyes of the community.
6. The equipment, machinery, vehicles, space suits etc. would all be reduced in size and therefore weight.
7. Theoretically, the cost could almost be halved if NASA thinks imaginatively and takes a chance that the public and the world is ready to accept that true representation is not about the size, but the spirit of exploration.

Disadvantages:
There are none, except to say that some people are prejudiced and it is this prejudice which will not allow anyone to even talk about it, let alone suggest it.

What do you think?

Designing technology to exclude average or large sized people is predudice. Designing for a reasonable range centred on average is smart.
Besides I'm average height and I want to go. Why shouldn't I e able to ( other than cash)
Given finite cash, if we want to go to Mars then we should go to Mars.

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