Author Topic: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments  (Read 16083 times)

Offline Danderman

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #20 on: 03/14/2013 04:00 am »
I think you have summed it up.  It looks like a fulgerite (formed when lighting strikes the ground, typically spongly glass with all sorts of strange things in it).  Heck, they even mention fulgerite (and rather unsuccessfully discount it).

I am attaching an image of the Sri Lankan "meteorite" and some images of fulgurite that I found on Google. Please tell me why you think these are similar, keeping in mind that fulgurite typically forms a tube shape.

Offline hop

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #21 on: 03/14/2013 04:01 am »
Look, I am not saying that this claim of space fossils is anything but bogus, but when the debunking is bogus, that gets my attention.
Which part of Phil Plaits debunking here: http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/03/11/meteorite_life_claims_of_fossils_in_a_meteorite_are_still_wrong.html is "bogus"? Be specific.

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The lab work was done at Cardiff University.
But who interpreted the results? Cranks have no trouble using perfectly competent lab results to support absurd conclusions. JoC is basically a crank journal.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #22 on: 03/14/2013 04:24 am »
Look, I am not saying that this claim of space fossils is anything but bogus, but when the debunking is bogus, that gets my attention.
Which part of Phil Plaits debunking here: http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/03/11/meteorite_life_claims_of_fossils_in_a_meteorite_are_still_wrong.html is "bogus"? Be specific.


Okay, here is what Phil wrote:

In a nutshell, they don’t establish the samples they examined were actually meteorites. They don’t establish they were from the claimed meteor event over Sri Lanka in December 2012. And perhaps most telling, they don’t eliminate the possibility of contamination; that is, diatoms got into the samples because those rocks were sitting on the Earth where diatoms are everywhere.

Here is what is the actual paper says:

Minutes after a large fireball was seen by a large number of people in the skies over Sri Lanka on 29 December 2012, a large meteorite disintegrated and fell in the village of Araganwila, which is located a few miles away from the historic ancient city of Polonnaruwa. Fig 1a shows the location of the fall. Fig 1b shows a photograph of a small piece of the meteorite that was sent by one of us (AS) for study at the Buckingham Centre for Astrobiology and Cardiff University.

Other sources indicate that the rock in question was obtained by the local police, and forwarded to government authorities.

Concerning contamination, the paper indicates that the alleged "microfossils" contain the same elements as the surrounding rock. I guess Phil could likewise challenge any dinosaur fossil as being a real dinosaur on the same basis.

Other sources indicate that the interior of the rock, including the fossils, are devoid of nitrogen, which is a good indication of no terrestrial contamination.

HAVING SAID THAT, it is possible that the whole thing is a hoax, and that the data has been faked. But, that is true of a lot of reports that are taken here on good faith.

As I mentioned before, the lab work was allegedly performed at Cardiff University. If some of the key assertions were based on mis-reporting the CU lab work, we will hear about that soon.


« Last Edit: 03/14/2013 04:25 am by Danderman »

Offline Danderman

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #23 on: 03/14/2013 04:33 am »
I did find a story on the internet where these guys were saying a month ago that they found "viable" diatoms inside the rock, so that would be a good indicator that they are dealing with terrestrial life, and not fossils.

Offline hop

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #24 on: 03/14/2013 04:54 am »
Fig 1a shows the location of the fall. Fig 1b shows a photograph of a small piece of the meteorite that was sent by one of us (AS) for study at the Buckingham Centre for Astrobiology and Cardiff University.

Other sources indicate that the rock in question was obtained by the local police, and forwarded to government authorities.
So what? How do they know it was associated with the fireball? Nothing in what you quoted establishes that.

As Plait notes, the alleged witness reports are not really consistent with actual meteorite falls. However, they are pretty consistent with what people who don't know better think meteorite falls should be like.

As far as I know Sri Lankan village police receive no special training in meteorite identification or how to avoid contaminating meteorite samples.

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As I mentioned before, the lab work was allegedly performed at Cardiff University. If some of the key assertions were based on mis-reporting the CU lab work, we will hear about that soon.
Not really. They can present the data correctly (the oxygen isotope ratio is ...) while coming to incorrect conclusions about it (therefore aliens!!!!111)

Offline Danderman

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #25 on: 03/14/2013 05:17 am »

Not really. They can present the data correctly (the oxygen isotope ratio is ...) while coming to incorrect conclusions about it (therefore aliens!!!!111

The "no nitrogen" quote is the key. If this was not in the actual lab results, I would call this as consistent with fakery.

BTW, I dug around the Internet to see if the alleged December 29 meteorite fall actually happened, and I found this:

http://www.mirror.lk/news/4262-woman-unconscious-after-smelling-meteorite-piece

"A farmer’s wife has become unconscious after smelling a piece of meteorite that had fallen to a paddy field at Kudawewa in Dimbulagala on December 29.   The farmer’s hands have been burnt by the meteorite.

The meteorite piece has been handed over to the Peradeniya University for tests.

Police in Aralaganwila are raising awareness among the people against touching unknown objects fallen from the skies."
« Last Edit: 03/14/2013 05:19 am by Danderman »

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #26 on: 03/14/2013 05:45 am »
Why do we waste Earth's natural resources to even publish stories like this?  We destroyed a tree to simply read this.  That tree converted co2 into oxygen through the mechanism of photosynthesis.  This woman might not have fainted if she simply had 2ppm more oxygen to breath.  Now that tree that we published this story on produces nothing... ALL because somebody smelled a meteroite?



Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #27 on: 03/14/2013 12:02 pm »
Maybe she licked it?
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Offline Danderman

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #28 on: 03/14/2013 01:47 pm »
Hmmmm .......


http://www.island.lk/index.php?page_cat=article-details&page=article-details&code_title=74157

Tests in US, Germany reconfirm Aralaganwila finds

Oxygen Isotope experiments at Harvard University in America and Gottingen University in Germany had proved that the rock fragments found at Aralaganwila in Polonnaruwa on December 29 last year were meteorite fragments, Medical Research Institute (MRI) Director Dr. Anil Samaranayake said yesterday.

Dr. Samaranayake, who has been appointed as the guest editor to the March issue of the international journal, ‘Journal of Cosmology,’ said that the view of Peradeniya University Geology Division that they were not meteorites was disproved by the new Oxygen Isotope experiments. 



 :o  :o  :o  :o


Did this really happen?
« Last Edit: 03/14/2013 01:48 pm by Danderman »

Offline hop

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #29 on: 03/15/2013 01:09 am »
I did find a story on the internet where these guys were saying a month ago that they found "viable" diatoms inside the rock, so that would be a good indicator that they are dealing with terrestrial life, and not fossils.
This was also mentioned in Phil Plaits article. If you didn't get that far, you probably didn't get the comments from Dr Cohen (an actual meteorite expert)...

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"A farmer’s wife has become unconscious after smelling a piece of meteorite that had fallen to a paddy field at Kudawewa in Dimbulagala on December 29.   The farmer’s hands have been burnt by the meteorite.
This does not improve the credibility of the entire story, to say the least...
Quote
http://www.island.lk/index.php?page_cat=article-details&page=article-details&code_title=74157

Tests in US, Germany reconfirm Aralaganwila finds

Oxygen Isotope experiments at Harvard University in America and Gottingen University in Germany had proved that the rock fragments found at Aralaganwila in Polonnaruwa on December 29 last year were meteorite fragments, Medical Research Institute (MRI) Director Dr. Anil Samaranayake said yesterday.
It's not clear what this article is referring to.  Gottingen was mentioned in the recent paper (as the source of oxygen isotope ratios). Harvard was not, as far as I can tell. However as Dr Cohen noted, oxygen isotope ratios are not actually the slam dunk claimed by Wickramasinghe et al.

Quote
Did this really happen?
If by "this" you mean a crank journal publishing a junk paper, signs point to yes...

Seriously, take a little look at the history of what these people and their journal (Wickramasinghe is both executive editor and lead author on the paper) have published  in the past. JoC is the moral equivalent of the Weekly World News, and panspermia is their bat-boy.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #30 on: 03/15/2013 01:40 am »
I think you have summed it up.  It looks like a fulgerite (formed when lighting strikes the ground, typically spongly glass with all sorts of strange things in it).  Heck, they even mention fulgerite (and rather unsuccessfully discount it).

I am attaching an image of the Sri Lankan "meteorite" and some images of fulgurite that I found on Google. Please tell me why you think these are similar, keeping in mind that fulgurite typically forms a tube shape.

I have seen lots of fulgurite and have yet to see an example that has that classic carrot or tree shape that you showed.  Most are just irreuglar fragments of vesicular glassy material, just like the sample from Sri Lanka.  I have a nice lump of it at home, I will try and find it, it's somewhere in the garage.....
« Last Edit: 03/15/2013 01:42 am by Dalhousie »
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #31 on: 03/15/2013 01:49 am »
I think you have summed it up.  It looks like a fulgerite (formed when lighting strikes the ground, typically spongly glass with all sorts of strange things in it).  Heck, they even mention fulgerite (and rather unsuccessfully discount it).

I am attaching an image of the Sri Lankan "meteorite" and some images of fulgurite that I found on Google. Please tell me why you think these are similar, keeping in mind that fulgurite typically forms a tube shape.

I have seen lots of fulgurite and have yet to see an example that has that classic carrot or tree shape that you showed.  Most are just irreuglar fragments of vesicular glassy material, just like the sample from Sri Lanka.  I have a nice lump of it at home, I will try and find it, it's somewhere in the garage.....

Until I do, here are some photos, examples 1, 2 and 3 are probably the most relevant.

http://skywalker.cochise.edu/wellerr/meteorite/misc-glass/misc-glassL.htm
« Last Edit: 03/15/2013 01:49 am by Dalhousie »
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #32 on: 03/15/2013 05:57 am »
Here is a hand-sized piece of fulgurite I picked up in Western Australia about 25 years ago.  It's not that uncommon in the area, and generally irregularly shaped masses like this.
« Last Edit: 03/15/2013 09:06 am by Dalhousie »
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #33 on: 03/15/2013 07:02 am »
What if the meteor was hit by lightning while it entered and descended thru Earth's atmosphere?  Could that produce a fulgerite looking rock as well as having enough logic to still be a meteorite/meteoroid?

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #34 on: 03/15/2013 08:57 am »
What if the meteor was hit by lightning while it entered and descended thru Earth's atmosphere?  Could that produce a fulgerite looking rock as well as having enough logic to still be a meteorite/meteoroid?

A lighting strike on a descending metroite is unlikely but not impossible.

It isn't going to change it's compostion, though,the composition is far to siliceous to be a meteorite.  It is also unlikely to create a vesicular texture.  There is no way it could introduce the diatoms.

Fulgurite does however have the right texture, composition and can include diatoms.
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Offline Lampyridae

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #35 on: 03/15/2013 11:41 am »
Surprised no-one has mentioned pumice. The low density immediately made me suspicious. Sri Lanka has a few volcanoes, mostly extinct I think.

Prof. Wickramasinghe's bio. He certainly gets around.

http://www.buckingham.ac.uk/directory/professor-chandra-wickramasinghe/
« Last Edit: 03/15/2013 11:49 am by Lampyridae »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #36 on: 03/15/2013 01:52 pm »
All that aside, people then collected black rocks they found in the area.

I realize that experts are people too, but the collection of samples doesn't seem to have been taken by experts.  I would have thought that a scientific foundation would have coughed up a few tens of thousands of dollars to send a team of meterorite collectors to the site.

There is no scientific justification to provide only a black and white picture of the object.  I do approve of the imperial scale, however.

In addition, where are the photomicrographs of selected slices of the object?

Oxygen Isotope experiments at Harvard University in America and Gottingen University in Germany had proved that the rock fragments found at Aralaganwila in Polonnaruwa on December 29 last year were meteorite fragments, Medical Research Institute (MRI) Director Dr. Anil Samaranayake said yesterday.

Link to Harvard and Gottingen please?  There, I used the magic word.

Here is a hand-sized piece of fulgurite I picked up in Western Australia about 25 years ago.

I was going to take the liberty of reposting your foto in B&W, but the JPEG wouldn't download.

Also, just because I'm not an expert, doesn't mean than I'm not a people.
« Last Edit: 03/15/2013 01:53 pm by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #37 on: 03/15/2013 01:54 pm »
What if the meteor was hit by lightning while it entered and descended thru Earth's atmosphere?  Could that produce a fulgerite looking rock as well as having enough logic to still be a meteorite/meteoroid?

A lighting strike on a descending metroite is unlikely but not impossible.

It isn't going to change it's compostion, though,the composition is far to siliceous to be a meteorite.  It is also unlikely to create a vesicular texture.  There is no way it could introduce the diatoms.

Fulgurite does however have the right texture, composition and can include diatoms.

How about finding diatoms inside fulgurite, is that common?

BTW, don't believe that I standing behind these reports, I am just asking questions.

« Last Edit: 03/15/2013 01:55 pm by Danderman »

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #38 on: 03/15/2013 02:23 pm »
How about finding diatoms inside fulgurite, is that common?

1. Has anyone ever looked?
2. Considering it forms rapidly from a lightening strike on soil/sand one would assume it would entrap and encase any micro organism's living in the soil/sand struck.
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Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Astrobiologists Find Ancient Fossils in Fireball Fragments
« Reply #39 on: 03/15/2013 09:52 pm »
I realize that experts are people too, but the collection of samples doesn't seem to have been taken by experts.  I would have thought that a scientific foundation would have coughed up a few tens of thousands of dollars to send a team of meterorite collectors to the site.

Exactly, there are geology departments at universities, a state geological survey, and meusums in Sri Lanka.  Whgere is their commentary?

Quote
In addition, where are the photomicrographs of selected slices of the object?

Exactly, one would expect that to characterise a meteorite - chondrules are most distinctive.

Also missing is a bulk chemical analysis.  Where is the XRF or ICPMS data?  Also essential.

Quote

Oxygen Isotope experiments at Harvard University in America and Gottingen University in Germany had proved that the rock fragments found at Aralaganwila in Polonnaruwa on December 29 last year were meteorite fragments, Medical Research Institute (MRI) Director Dr. Anil Samaranayake said yesterday.

Link to Harvard and Gottingen please?  There, I used the magic word.

These places probably jsut ran the samples commerically.  They would not normally supply the data independently.

Quote
Here is a hand-sized piece of fulgurite I picked up in Western Australia about 25 years ago.

I was going to take the liberty of reposting your foto in B&W, but the JPEG wouldn't download.

Check you mailbox for my email address :)
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

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