Author Topic: SLS Art Work  (Read 6338 times)

Offline kirghizstan

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SLS Art Work
« on: 06/27/2012 11:22 am »
I know no one really cares about this but when will the artwork for SLS become more realistic and get rid of the Saturn V paint job.  Every agrees that it the 1st stage will be unpainted like Shuttle's ET, right?

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: SLS Art Work
« Reply #1 on: 06/27/2012 03:49 pm »
Every agrees that it the 1st stage will be unpainted like Shuttle's ET, right?

Actually, no they don't agree.  Several NASA posters have insisted that the SV-style paint job is the actual final look and that they will not be putting insulation foam on SLS for some reason.

Personally, I don't like this idea; it smacks of attempting to 'spin' SLS.  That said, it isn't a terrible thing, I suppose.  No-one is going to kick up a DIRECT-style fuss over a paint scheme...

Or, at least I hope they don't. :o
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Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: SLS Art Work
« Reply #2 on: 06/27/2012 03:52 pm »
Its being worked - big thread on L2 with very impressive SLS art work.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29219.0
« Last Edit: 06/27/2012 03:53 pm by Chris Bergin »

Offline Downix

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Re: SLS Art Work
« Reply #3 on: 06/27/2012 04:37 pm »
I know no one really cares about this but when will the artwork for SLS become more realistic and get rid of the Saturn V paint job.  Every agrees that it the 1st stage will be unpainted like Shuttle's ET, right?
There is a reason it is painted you know. It helps the ground tracking system.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline Lars_J

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Re: SLS Art Work
« Reply #4 on: 06/27/2012 04:43 pm »
I know no one really cares about this but when will the artwork for SLS become more realistic and get rid of the Saturn V paint job.  Every agrees that it the 1st stage will be unpainted like Shuttle's ET, right?
There is a reason it is painted you know. It helps the ground tracking system.

That was needed in the Saturn V era, yes. Not now.

They could do a compromise. Use ET style insulation painted like a Saturn V.  :)

Offline jml

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Re: SLS Art Work
« Reply #5 on: 06/27/2012 05:15 pm »
Could the low flight rate and the plan to do engine/stage hot-fire testing on the first SLS core before flight lead to a similar rationale for painting the foam that STS-1 had (prevent foam decay from UV exposure)? SLS will have plenty of payload margin to cover the extra weight of the paint.

Offline kirghizstan

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Re: SLS Art Work
« Reply #6 on: 06/27/2012 05:25 pm »
I know no one really cares about this but when will the artwork for SLS become more realistic and get rid of the Saturn V paint job.  Every agrees that it the 1st stage will be unpainted like Shuttle's ET, right?
There is a reason it is painted you know. It helps the ground tracking system.

I understand this but earlier on when the first pics were released many said it was just a propaganda move to make it look like Saturn. 

If it is very much like the tank of the shuttle then we know the paint just added extra weight which was unneeded.  If you want rotational data then paint a part that gets painted anyway, srb, payload shroud, portion which "joins" Orion to the et

Yeah I'm a lay person so answer what Im trying to say not the actual words which could be completely a mess of misused terms

Offline edkyle99

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Re: SLS Art Work
« Reply #7 on: 06/27/2012 05:58 pm »
Every agrees that it the 1st stage will be unpainted like Shuttle's ET, right?

Actually, no they don't agree.  Several NASA posters have insisted that the SV-style paint job is the actual final look and that they will not be putting insulation foam on SLS for some reason.

The core and upper stage tanks will most certainly be insulated.  No large cryo hydrogen tank has ever been launched without insulation, for at least the atmospheric portion of the ascent, either on the outside or on the inside of the tank.

That insulation could be painted.  Consider the STS-1 and STS-2 External Tanks.  There are no engineering reasons to paint the core tanks, however.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 06/27/2012 06:00 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline Lobo

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Re: SLS Art Work
« Reply #8 on: 06/27/2012 06:51 pm »
Every agrees that it the 1st stage will be unpainted like Shuttle's ET, right?

Actually, no they don't agree.  Several NASA posters have insisted that the SV-style paint job is the actual final look and that they will not be putting insulation foam on SLS for some reason.

Personally, I don't like this idea; it smacks of attempting to 'spin' SLS.  That said, it isn't a terrible thing, I suppose.  No-one is going to kick up a DIRECT-style fuss over a paint scheme...

Or, at least I hope they don't. :o

Actually, if SLS-1 and SLS-2 remain as they are, with just Orion and ICPS/DCSS, then those cores will have a lot of surplus lift capacity, especially if Block 1 SLS has LEO performance closer to 90mt than 70mt, (which is likely), then there would be ample reserve capacity to paint the core over spray on foam, just like the first few STS flights.  It could then be dropped, like STS when they might start needing that weight savings. 

So, I could see the first SLS launch, if not the first few, painted like Saturn V, just for media relations sake if nothing else, as they'll have capacity to spare and the mass of the paint won't make any difference.   After they have their "SAturn V-Phase 2" image flying with lots of pictures floating around of it, I would expect the paint job to be dropped, as it was for STS.  I feel pretty certain that the "PoR" SLS core will be ET-Orange.  (Unless they can add some pigment to the spray on foam and turn it white or something, without being a weight penalty...)

Offline kirghizstan

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Re: SLS Art Work
« Reply #9 on: 06/27/2012 07:01 pm »
no paint saves money too

yeah not much but any savings is good

Offline TomH

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Re: SLS Art Work
« Reply #10 on: 06/27/2012 11:56 pm »
no paint saves money too

yeah not much but any savings is good

This may not be accurate, but I seem to remember $1M-$2M on STS?

Offline TomH

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Re: SLS Art Work
« Reply #11 on: 06/28/2012 12:04 am »
No large cryo hydrogen tank has ever been launched without insulation, for at least the atmospheric portion of the ascent, either on the outside or on the inside of the tank.

Did S-II and S-IVB have insulation? I could easily be wrong, but I thought no Saturn stages had insulation.  I remember all that ice breaking free at engine start (with nothing below for it to damage). I thought foam on STS ET was to prevent ice that would damage the TPS at engine ignition.

The paint is prettier, but OTOH, we're not building this as a beauty pageant entrant.

Offline Downix

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Re: SLS Art Work
« Reply #12 on: 06/28/2012 12:59 am »
No large cryo hydrogen tank has ever been launched without insulation, for at least the atmospheric portion of the ascent, either on the outside or on the inside of the tank.

Did S-II and S-IVB have insulation? I could easily be wrong, but I thought no Saturn stages had insulation.  I remember all that ice breaking free at engine start (with nothing below for it to damage). I thought foam on STS ET was to prevent ice that would damage the TPS at engine ignition.

The paint is prettier, but OTOH, we're not building this as a beauty pageant entrant.
They did, on the inside of the tank rather than the outside. They moved to external in order to allow more mass production of the tanks, they assumed that they would need to produce 20+ a year, and the external insulation would allow that rate of production while the internal, which was more robust, less expensive and lighter, could not be applied at that pace.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline RyanC

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Re: SLS Art Work
« Reply #13 on: 06/28/2012 05:12 am »
That insulation could be painted.  Consider the STS-1 and STS-2 External Tanks.  There are no engineering reasons to paint the core tanks, however.

Insulation is likely internal, like on the S-II and S-IVB.

It's worth noting that the Shuttle ET foam used on at least the first couple of flights (or during development) was the same exact foam used on the later model S-II stages; albeit with nothing between the foam and open air.

Wings in Orbit: Scientific and Engineering Legacies of the Space Shuttle basically says (summarized):

The original Baseline ET TPS called for Stepanfoam BX-250 (which was used on S-II) for the LH2 sidewalls (Acreage) and forward dome; with SLA-561 (used on Viking Mars Lander) for the aft dome, intertank, and LOX tank in high heating areas.

But then the foam impact issue drove the baseline towards the entire tank to be covered in BX-250 except for the aft dome, which remained SLA-561 due to heat concerns.

This was later changed, but it gives you an idea.

« Last Edit: 06/28/2012 05:19 am by RyanCrierie »

Offline Jorge

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Re: SLS Art Work
« Reply #14 on: 06/28/2012 06:20 am »
That insulation could be painted.  Consider the STS-1 and STS-2 External Tanks.  There are no engineering reasons to paint the core tanks, however.

Insulation is likely internal, like on the S-II and S-IVB.

S-IVB was internal, S-II was external.
JRF

Offline edkyle99

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Re: SLS Art Work
« Reply #15 on: 06/28/2012 08:15 pm »
That insulation could be painted.  Consider the STS-1 and STS-2 External Tanks.  There are no engineering reasons to paint the core tanks, however.
Insulation is likely internal, like on the .... S-IVB.

I'm 99.9% sure that the SLS core will use external insulation.

 - Ed Kyle

Offline Downix

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Re: SLS Art Work
« Reply #16 on: 06/28/2012 09:07 pm »
That insulation could be painted.  Consider the STS-1 and STS-2 External Tanks.  There are no engineering reasons to paint the core tanks, however.
Insulation is likely internal, like on the .... S-IVB.

I'm 99.9% sure that the SLS core will use external insulation.

 - Ed Kyle
Which company will be in charge of building the equipment to do so?

The current application machine cannot handle an SLS core due to size, an all new unit would be required.  The internal application system can handle the SLS core, as it can be applied to just the tanks pre-assembly, so no new equipment would be required.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline RyanC

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Re: SLS Art Work
« Reply #17 on: 06/29/2012 04:21 pm »
S-IVB was internal, S-II was external.

I was going to reply with something, then double checked my sources regarding the S-II insulation -- I had always assumed that the S-II had some sort of external skin between the insulation and open air -- I was wrong; it was nothing but epoxy/nylon/tedlar laminates/film.

Offline JohnF

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Re: SLS Art Work
« Reply #18 on: 07/25/2012 12:42 am »
I like the Saturn V paint job, if for no other reason to pay homage to the greatest launch vehicle ever.

Offline spectre9

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Re: SLS Art Work
« Reply #19 on: 07/25/2012 12:53 am »
Ares 1-X had a Z stripe.

It makes me wonder if that sort of paint job will do?

Are the big black squares needed?

SLS isn't a Saturn V and I don't think it should be dolled up to look like one.

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