Author Topic: Is it possible to keep Piers  (Read 8003 times)

Offline Don Gordon

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Is it possible to keep Piers
« on: 02/28/2010 05:13 PM »
There have been many discussions on Piers and what to do with it when the new Russian module arrives.  All of these assumed we could not keep it on the station.  Why is that?  Is there no port we could dock it to?  Put it on the end of MRM 1 or 2?  Is there a zenit port on Zarya that is functional?  Would it attach to the end of a PMA?

One other thought - what about the solar panels on Zarya?  I know on Mir they added extra solar panels from time to time.  Any way to move those panels to another location?  I know this would need some sort of mounting point - but could one be built and bolted somewhere?  Attach them 90 degrees offset from their current position on Zarya and build jumper wires to plug them in?

I just hate to see anything on orbit now go to waste or be lost if there is any other options.
« Last Edit: 02/28/2010 05:37 PM by Don Gordon »

Offline Jorge

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Re: Is it possible to keep Piers
« Reply #1 on: 02/28/2010 05:52 PM »
There have been many discussions on Piers and what to do with it when the new Russian module arrives.  All of these assumed we could not keep it on the station.  Why is that?

It uses a hybrid docking mechanism that is incompatible with the rest of the mechanisms on the station. The only hybrid ports are Zvezda zenith, forward, and nadir, currently occupied by MRM-2, Zarya, and Pirs, respectively.

Quote
  Is there no port we could dock it to?  Put it on the end of MRM 1 or 2?  Is there a zenit port on Zarya that is functional?  Would it attach to the end of a PMA?

No to all four.
JRF

Offline Danderman

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Re: Is it possible to keep Piers
« Reply #2 on: 03/01/2010 01:11 AM »
There have been many discussions on Piers and what to do with it when the new Russian module arrives.  All of these assumed we could not keep it on the station.  Why is that?  Is there no port we could dock it to?  Put it on the end of MRM 1 or 2?  Is there a zenit port on Zarya that is functional?  Would it attach to the end of a PMA?

Practically speaking, no.

However, if you offered a prize for a JSC employee to come up with a solution, I am sure you would get one, if there was enough cash.

Online Chandonn

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Re: Is it possible to keep Piers
« Reply #3 on: 03/01/2010 01:20 AM »
There have been many discussions on Piers and what to do with it when the new Russian module arrives.  All of these assumed we could not keep it on the station.  Why is that? Is there no port we could dock it to?

1) Put it on the end of MRM 1 or 2?

2) Is there a zenit port on Zarya that is functional?

3) Would it attach to the end of a PMA?

1.) The hybrid port on Piers will not attach to the Soyuz port on either MRM 1 or 2.

2.) No.

3.) The hybrid port on Piers will not attach to the APAS port on a PMA.

The hybrid port is also not compatable with the CBM ports on the USOS.

Short answer: there is no compatable available docking port for Piers other than the one it is currently occupying.
« Last Edit: 03/01/2010 01:21 AM by Chandonn »

Offline Nascent Ascent

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Re: Is it possible to keep Piers
« Reply #4 on: 03/01/2010 01:32 AM »
Here's proof that it is possible to keep Piers.
“Why should we send people into space when we have kids in the U.S. that can’t read”. - Barack Obama

Offline Danderman

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Re: Is it possible to keep Piers
« Reply #5 on: 03/01/2010 02:22 PM »
Let me clear: it is not practical to move Piers to another port, but its possible.

Offline Apollo-phill

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Re: Is it possible to keep Piers
« Reply #6 on: 03/01/2010 02:26 PM »
If it has to be undocked at any stage , why not keep it flying in 'close-formation',rendezvous-like mode with ISS ? MAybe be used as a 'storage' module - being visited occassionally by EVA astros?


Phill

Offline Jim

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Re: Is it possible to keep Piers
« Reply #7 on: 03/01/2010 02:51 PM »
If it has to be undocked at any stage , why not keep it flying in 'close-formation',rendezvous-like mode with ISS ? MAybe be used as a 'storage' module - being visited occassionally by EVA astros?


It has no power, propulsion or guidance system.

Offline Bubbinski

Re: Is it possible to keep Piers
« Reply #8 on: 03/01/2010 02:57 PM »
Isn't a Progress module going to dock to it and then undock it and fire its engines to deorbit it? 

I suppose the Pirs could theoretically be turned into a free flyer by docking the Progress to it and then having the combo fly in formation some distance away, then returning to ISS.  But as others pointed out, there would be no free ports for Pirs once MLM is installed, and I don't really see how there would be any other practical way to retrieve any experiments done in Pirs in free flying mode.  So the free flyer idea looks like a non starter.

Now as for a free flying scientific module to ISS, couldn't the HTV be made into something like that??
I'll even excitedly look forward to "flags and footprints" and suborbital missions. Just fly...somewhere.

Online Chandonn

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Re: Is it possible to keep Piers
« Reply #9 on: 03/01/2010 03:19 PM »
Let me clear: it is not practical to move Piers to another port, but its possible.


...and given enough time and money we could turn a school bus into a space shuttle too.  The point is: neither are going to happen because they are not practical.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Is it possible to keep Piers
« Reply #10 on: 03/01/2010 10:11 PM »
Let me clear: it is not practical to move Piers to another port, but its possible.


...and given enough time and money we could turn a school bus into a space shuttle too.  The point is: neither are going to happen because they are not practical.

Moving Pirs to another port is not as difficult as turning a school bus into a shuttle, but its not easy, either. I believe that the hardware to convert the Pirs docking port was paid for by NASA already, and may be sitting somewhere in Moscow these days.

Offline Don Gordon

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Re: Is it possible to keep Piers
« Reply #11 on: 03/05/2010 12:07 AM »
Let me clear: it is not practical to move Piers to another port, but its possible.


...and given enough time and money we could turn a school bus into a space shuttle too.  The point is: neither are going to happen because they are not practical.

Moving Pirs to another port is not as difficult as turning a school bus into a shuttle, but its not easy, either. I believe that the hardware to convert the Pirs docking port was paid for by NASA already, and may be sitting somewhere in Moscow these days.


Hmmm - I wonder if anyone on here could confirm that last statement?

And no one has addressed the possiblity of moving the folded up solar panals on Zarya to someplace they can be used.

Offline The-Hammer

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Re: Is it possible to keep Piers
« Reply #12 on: 03/05/2010 01:31 AM »
I do seem to recall reading somewhere (probably here), that there was at least a preliminary pre-plan to temporarily replace the Probe on Zarya Aft with an APAS ring so that a US made propulsion module could be attached.

The reason being so that US construction could start while awaiting completion of Zvezda, if it were severely delayed (more than it already was).

I think.
Grant Imahara: Oxygen deficiency alarm? Is that something I should be worried about?
NASA worker: Only if it goes off.

Offline Space Pete

Re: Is it possible to keep Piers
« Reply #13 on: 03/05/2010 03:32 PM »
I do seem to recall reading somewhere (probably here), that there was at least a preliminary pre-plan to temporarily replace the Probe on Zarya Aft with an APAS ring so that a US made propulsion module could be attached.

The reason being so that US construction could start while awaiting completion of Zvezda, if it were severely delayed (more than it already was).

I think.

Zarya’s Aft port already has an APAS ring.....and a Probe. ;)

It uses the Hybrid docking system (which is a sort-of combination of Probe & Drogue + APAS).

Zarya's Aft port uses the exact same docking mechanism as Pirs (which is visible in this photo):
www.spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/station/pirs/hires/iss003e5620.jpg
« Last Edit: 03/05/2010 03:35 PM by Space Pete »
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Offline The-Hammer

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Re: Is it possible to keep Piers
« Reply #14 on: 03/05/2010 04:10 PM »
I do seem to recall reading somewhere (probably here), that there was at least a preliminary pre-plan to temporarily replace the Probe on Zarya Aft with an APAS ring so that a US made propulsion module could be attached.

The reason being so that US construction could start while awaiting completion of Zvezda, if it were severely delayed (more than it already was).

I think.

Zarya’s Aft port already has an APAS ring.....and a Probe. ;)

It uses the Hybrid docking system (which is a sort-of combination of Probe & Drogue + APAS).

Zarya's Aft port uses the exact same docking mechanism as Pirs (which is visible in this photo):
www.spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/station/pirs/hires/iss003e5620.jpg

Yeah, I got my terminology mixed up. By "APAS ring" I meant the "active" ring (which replaces the probe), rather than the "structural" ring (which contains the hooks and which is part of both APAS and Hybrid Probe and Drogue)
Grant Imahara: Oxygen deficiency alarm? Is that something I should be worried about?
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Offline Danderman

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Re: Is it possible to keep Piers
« Reply #15 on: 03/05/2010 04:12 PM »
"Ring" relates to the APAS mating structure. "Docking Collar" represents the interface plane between two spacecraft.

Offline Space Pete

Re: Is it possible to keep Piers
« Reply #16 on: 03/05/2010 06:42 PM »
"Ring" relates to the APAS mating structure. "Docking Collar" represents the interface plane between two spacecraft.

Ah, thanks - I didn't know the exact terminology for that.

Sorry for causing any confusion - my bad! :-[
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Offline Mike D

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Re: Is it possible to keep Piers
« Reply #17 on: 03/06/2010 04:42 PM »
There have been many discussions on Piers and what to do with it when the new Russian module arrives.  All of these assumed we could not keep it on the station.  Why is that?  Is there no port we could dock it to?  Put it on the end of MRM 1 or 2?  Is there a zenit port on Zarya that is functional?  Would it attach to the end of a PMA?

One other thought - what about the solar panels on Zarya?  I know on Mir they added extra solar panels from time to time.  Any way to move those panels to another location?  I know this would need some sort of mounting point - but could one be built and bolted somewhere?  Attach them 90 degrees offset from their current position on Zarya and build jumper wires to plug them in?

I just hate to see anything on orbit now go to waste or be lost if there is any other options.


I've thought that they should leave Piers right where it is, Zvezda nadir, and move Poisk to Zarya nadir. Then, they could launch the backup Zvezda for attachment to Piers (directly beneath and parallel to the original Zvezda). Then launch another Zarya for attachment to the 2nd Zvezda forward, and relocated Poisk (directly beneath and parallel to the original Zarya). Of course docking the 2nd Zarya with both Poisk (above) and the 2nd Zvezda (aft) would probably be impossible . . .

But, it would double the size of the Russian segment, while maintaining the availability of docking ports on the new modules.

Of course, I didn't know that the docking ports on Zvezda and Zarya differed from each other.

Offline Jorge

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Re: Is it possible to keep Piers
« Reply #18 on: 03/06/2010 05:56 PM »
There have been many discussions on Piers and what to do with it when the new Russian module arrives.  All of these assumed we could not keep it on the station.  Why is that?  Is there no port we could dock it to?  Put it on the end of MRM 1 or 2?  Is there a zenit port on Zarya that is functional?  Would it attach to the end of a PMA?

One other thought - what about the solar panels on Zarya?  I know on Mir they added extra solar panels from time to time.  Any way to move those panels to another location?  I know this would need some sort of mounting point - but could one be built and bolted somewhere?  Attach them 90 degrees offset from their current position on Zarya and build jumper wires to plug them in?

I just hate to see anything on orbit now go to waste or be lost if there is any other options.


I've thought that they should leave Piers right where it is, Zvezda nadir, and move Poisk to Zarya nadir.

They would have to modify Poisk to use the smaller probe & drogue mechanism. Plus, it is not possible for Poisk to dock to Zarya nadir after the PMM is attached to Unity nadir. There is not enough dynamic clearance for approach.

Quote
Then, they could launch the backup Zvezda for attachment to Piers (directly beneath and parallel to the original Zvezda).

Not possible. Zvezda is not capable of active approach/docking. It is always the passive vehicle.
JRF

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