Author Topic: Shenzhou-ISS cooperation flight possible with new NASA direction?  (Read 7351 times)

Offline clb22

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ESA Director Jean-Jacques Dordain has commented that they will push for getting more partners on board the ISS program in March, even more so after NASA has announced its new direction and increased focus on the ISS program.

Which brings us back to an old question, what are the requirements for a Shenzhou-ISS mission, having 3 Chinese astronauts dock to the Russian part of the ISS and stay on board 7-8 days nominally? Potential mission launch, maybe in 2014/2015 timeframe.
Spirals not circles, Mr. President. Spirals!

Offline Zipi

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Shenzhou cannot currently dock to Russian side since it has APAS compatible docking system, not "Russian Probe & Cone" like ATV has. This will mean Shenzhou has to dock with PMA-2 or PMA-3, which actually seems a quite good idea since the shuttle is not needing those ports after this year.
Broken man-made things can be fixed (if you find the pieces).

Offline Danderman

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Shenzhou cannot currently dock to Russian side since it has APAS compatible docking system, not "Russian Probe & Cone" like ATV has. This will mean Shenzhou has to dock with PMA-2 or PMA-3, which actually seems a quite good idea since the shuttle is not needing those ports after this year.

NASA has been very careful to make sure that those APAS ports are available to China, for many years. COTS participants were basically told not to baseline APAS, presumably for this reason.

Offline Danderman

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I guess I should answer the question in the OP. China needs to significantly increase its flight rate. One mission every three years is not worthy of the attention of the International Partners.


Offline clb22

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I guess I should answer the question in the OP. China needs to significantly increase its flight rate. One mission every three years is not worthy of the attention of the International Partners.

From all we know, this is their current plan with Tiangong-1 + Shenzhou-8, 9 and 10 and 11 (+ potentially Tiangong-2), which seem to be all scheduled within 2 years, with at two manned flights of Shenzhou in there).

Anyway, we are talking about a Soyuz-Apollo type mission, not so much a continued program. It would be done more for publicity reasons, maybe 2015 would be a good date (40 years after Apollo-Soyuz).
Spirals not circles, Mr. President. Spirals!

Offline Jim

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NASA has been very careful to make sure that those APAS ports are available to China, for many years. COTS participants were basically told not to baseline APAS, presumably for this reason.


The APAS are going to be replaced

Offline SpacexULA

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The ISS is getting more interesting by the week.

Serious talk of ISS extension 2020+ (can the solar wings hold out that long?)
Possible new Russian Modules, and capsule by 2020
Possible new ESA modules, more ATVs
Possible Indian involement
Possible Chinese involvement (New Chinese modules?)
Possible NASA contracted Bigeolow Modules

Fleets of Dragons, Orion-lites, Progress, Cygnus, ATV, HTV, Soyuz/PTK-NP, & Shenzhou all coming and going.

Honestly it could be interesting if only half of it happens.  If all of it happens, it's going to be a wild time in LEO.
No Bucks no Buck Rogers, but at least Flexible path gets you Twiki.

Offline mmeijeri

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Serious talk of ISS extension 2020+ (can the solar wings hold out that long?)

Couldn't they just be replaced? They probably don't have spare ones lying around, but they could build new ones.
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Offline Nascent Ascent

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Serious talk of ISS extension 2020+ (can the solar wings hold out that long?)

Couldn't they just be replaced? They probably don't have spare ones lying around, but they could build new ones.

Yes, they absolutely could be replaced. You just build another set and launch them in one of the shuttles....oh...oh...nevermind.
“Why should we send people into space when we have kids in the U.S. that can’t read”. - Barack Obama

Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Will not happen, Congress is the reason China was not invited to the ISS and that will not change.
"Every vision is a joke until the first man accomplishes it; once realized, it becomes commonplace." - Robert Goddard

Offline Nascent Ascent

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Serious talk of ISS extension 2020+ (can the solar wings hold out that long?)

Couldn't they just be replaced? They probably don't have spare ones lying around, but they could build new ones.

Yes, they absolutely could be replaced. You just build another set and launch them in one of the shuttles....oh...oh...nevermind.

Probably would be easier to attach RTG units at the ends of each solar panel.  ;D
« Last Edit: 02/06/2010 06:34 PM by Nascent Ascent »
“Why should we send people into space when we have kids in the U.S. that can’t read”. - Barack Obama

Offline mmeijeri

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Yes, they absolutely could be replaced. You just build another set and launch them in one of the shuttles....oh...oh...nevermind.

But they're not all that large in launch configuration, nor very heavy. Should fit on an EELV easily.
We will be vic-toooooo-ri-ous!!!

Offline Nascent Ascent

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Yes, they absolutely could be replaced. You just build another set and launch them in one of the shuttles....oh...oh...nevermind.

But they're not all that large in launch configuration, nor very heavy. Should fit on an EELV easily.

Come on now.  Without the shuttle there's no practical way of retrofitting solar panels. 

This reliance on EELVs for every need in space is silly.  Even if you were able to cram a solar panel unit onto an EELV then what?  How does the payload get to the ISS?  How does it maneuver into position?  What happens with the old panels?

EELVs are not a panacea and there's much more involved than payload volume and lift capability.
« Last Edit: 02/06/2010 06:36 PM by Nascent Ascent »
“Why should we send people into space when we have kids in the U.S. that can’t read”. - Barack Obama

Offline mmeijeri

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Come on now.  Without the shuttle there's no practical way of retrofitting solar panels. 

I expect one of our experts to set you straight on this ... just about now.

Quote
This reliance of EELVs is silly.  Even if you were able to cram a solar panel unit onto an EELV then what?

You wouldn't have to cram them in. The blanket boxes are really small.

Quote
How does the payload get to the ISS? How does it maneuver into position. What happens with the old panels?

Upper stage hangs on to it until a tug like ATV or HTV comes and picks it up. Tug brings it to the robot arm. Robot arm and astronauts do the rest. Tug deorbits the old panel. It'll take care not to drop it on your house.

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EELVs are not a panacea.

ELVs (whether EELV or SDLV) are all we'll have. Better think of a solution soon...
« Last Edit: 02/06/2010 06:40 PM by mmeijeri »
We will be vic-toooooo-ri-ous!!!

Offline Danderman

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Serious talk of ISS extension 2020+ (can the solar wings hold out that long?)

Couldn't they just be replaced? They probably don't have spare ones lying around, but they could build new ones.

Yes, they absolutely could be replaced. You just build another set and launch them in one of the shuttles....oh...oh...nevermind.

To add power to ISS, no shuttle are required.


Offline mmeijeri

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Hey there was another post here discussing using EELVs for this. Where did it go?
We will be vic-toooooo-ri-ous!!!

Offline Jorge

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Hey there was another post here discussing using EELVs for this. Where did it go?

Probably deleted by the mods as off-topic. This thread is supposed to be about Shenzhou, not EELVs.
JRF

Offline Patchouli

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Come on now.  Without the shuttle there's no practical way of retrofitting solar panels. 

I expect one of our experts to set you straight on this ... just about now.

Quote
This reliance of EELVs is silly.  Even if you were able to cram a solar panel unit onto an EELV then what?

You wouldn't have to cram them in. The blanket boxes are really small.

Quote
How does the payload get to the ISS? How does it maneuver into position. What happens with the old panels?

Upper stage hangs on to it until a tug like ATV or HTV comes and picks it up. Tug brings it to the robot arm. Robot arm and astronauts do the rest. Tug deorbits the old panel. It'll take care not to drop it on your house.

Quote
EELVs are not a panacea.

ELVs (whether EELV or SDLV) are all we'll have. Better think of a solution soon...

The F9 upper stage with a few upgrades may be able to hang around long enough for something like the SSL tug or Cygnus to fetch the payload.

As for disposal of the old solar array the F9 US could do this since it lands in the ocean for recovery anyway.

You don't want to throw the tug away after one low delta V mission.

Another Option I see if Orion is saved is it's service module can be used as a tug.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/ssc/Orion/Toolkit/LMOrionWhitePaperforAugustineCommittee6.25.09.pdf
« Last Edit: 02/06/2010 07:49 PM by Patchouli »

Offline mmeijeri

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OK, to get back on topic, a Shenzhou-ISS flight might only be viable if the ISS itself remains viable for a long time. ISS maintenance factors into that.
We will be vic-toooooo-ri-ous!!!

Offline SpacexULA

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Hey there was another post here discussing using EELVs for this. Where did it go?

It was me, you basicly said the same thing I did, but better.  I deleted it so as not to pile onto someone who loves the Shuttle, carnally.
No Bucks no Buck Rogers, but at least Flexible path gets you Twiki.

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