Author Topic: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2  (Read 1356849 times)

Offline kraisee

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Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4040 on: 01/08/2009 07:47 am »
This was the one for the 15th.   But since we started talking about that date *another* has slipped inside that too :)   I've been dropping hints like crazy, but y'all will have to wait a few more days to hear more.

Lets just say that you ought not to worry if you don't hear from me for a few days.   I expect to be offline until Saturday or Sunday.

"What do you hear, Starbuck?" ;)

Ross.
« Last Edit: 01/08/2009 07:49 am by kraisee »
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
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Offline Mark S

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Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4041 on: 01/08/2009 12:05 pm »
I know that the Direct team is working on this--but 6+ months for a rebuttal?  I do understand events have put this on the backburner, but the Direct team promised a response approx. 7/5 that they would respond within a week.

The analysis was first uncovered by NASAWatch in October, not 6 months ago :)   And I can only get so much done each day since my heart attack, so please cut me some slack :)

I compiled a lot of the document this last week, but it's still only ~90% complete and is back on the side-burner again ( :( ) right now because we have something later this week which takes precedence over everything else.   As I hinted previously, we will be able to talk more about this event over the weekend.

Ross.

Ross,

Are you working from the NASA document "257003main_NASA Performance Assessment of (DIRECT 2) Compiled.0702.pdf", or do you have a more detailed or up to date document?  That paper reads like a powerpoint slideshow to me, not an actual technical document.  Plus, it still references the old DIRECT 2 propellant transfer plan.  Was propellant transfer still the active DIRECT plan at the time that they did their analyses (in May 2007 and again in October 2007)?

NASA must have a document with actual numbers in it somewhere, where they compare Ares to the current DIRECT 2.0 plan, if they did the detailed analysis that they claimed.

If that's not the document, is the detailed NASA analysis posted publicly somewhere?

Thanks,
Mark S.

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4042 on: 01/08/2009 12:11 pm »
Re.: PM Article

Damn... I can't wait until the fifteenth now!
"Oops! I left the silly thing in reverse!" - Duck Dodgers

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The Space Shuttle Program - 1981-2011

The time for words has passed; The time has come to put up or shut up!
DON'T PROPAGANDISE, FLY!!!

Offline Kaputnik

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Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4043 on: 01/08/2009 01:03 pm »
Here is Phillip's updated FAQ through the first 50 pages of the Direct thread 2.0.  Yes--I still have over 200 pages to go and then edited, and adding other sections.

A few minor errors in there, I will see if I can get time to do some corrections.

Good evening,

Here is the updated FAQ--up to page 70.  Yes--200 more pages to go though.  Please note, there was approx 10 pages of discussion regarding the rebuttal and waiting for the Direct Team to respond.  I have put a question in the FAQ.  Please note some of the answer will change  the more currant I get. 

There will be editing down of the answers, to try and change the tone.

Hip,
I know I offered to do a proof-read of the FAQ but haven't managed to get the time yet, and you're racing ahead of the version I was working on!
As general points though, there are plenty of typos needing corrected, and more importantly a lot of it doesn't read like a proper FAQ. There are multiple, involved wordy questions which need to be split up, and many of the answers go into wild tangents. A lot of the answers are also far too 'cheerleading' in their tone, or too wordy anyway. The best answer is usually a short one.
Anyway, all the best with the document!
"I don't care what anything was DESIGNED to do, I care about what it CAN do"- Gene Kranz

Offline Mark S

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Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4044 on: 01/08/2009 01:07 pm »
Please go purchase a copy!

I don't want any illegally scanned copies appearing here please.   Please do the right thing guys, thanks!

You can't miss it when it appears on the shelves.   It's the one with a dirty great Jupiter launch vehicle taking-off right there on the front cover :)

And the photo at the start of the article gives a whole new meaning to the term "Gray Beard"!  LOL


The "gold nugget" bit is that the author managed to interview Bernard Kutter (Advanced Programs Manager at ULA, formerly Lockheed-Martin).   His comments are on page 57.

In short he directly challenges Steve Cook's claims that our Upper Stage mass figures are too low.   He goes toe-to-toe with Cook on this issue On The Record.

The thing is that Kutter has proven stages in production and flying to back his argument up.   What has Cook managed to get flying?   His last major project was X-33.   Who has the most credibility here?

Ross.

Congratulations to Ross, Chuck, and the entire DIRECT team!  This is quite a publicity coup, notwithstanding my previous not-entirely-supportive posting.  The cover illustration is awesome, the blurb is not over the top like I feared, and apparently the article does contain some good insider quotes.

I will absolutely purchase my own copy, as soon as it shows up on the shelves.  Maybe two.  Like Ross, I encourage people to buy their own copies so we can have a meaningful discussion about it.  It's okay to post excerpts and quotations for discussion, but wholesale reproduction would be a slap in the face of the publisher who put DIRECT on the cover.

Mark S.

Offline clongton

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Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4045 on: 01/08/2009 01:12 pm »
Going quiet now for a couple of days.
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline Will

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Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4046 on: 01/08/2009 01:25 pm »
Please go purchase a copy!

I don't want any illegally scanned copies appearing here please.   Please do the right thing guys, thanks!

You can't miss it when it appears on the shelves.   It's the one with a dirty great Jupiter launch vehicle taking-off right there on the front cover :)

And the photo at the start of the article gives a whole new meaning to the term "Gray Beard"!  LOL


The "gold nugget" bit is that the author managed to interview Bernard Kutter (Advanced Programs Manager at ULA, formerly Lockheed-Martin).   His comments are on page 57.


That would be the same Lockheed-Martin that gave us the mass estimates for X-33 and Venture-Star?

Offline guru

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Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4047 on: 01/08/2009 01:34 pm »
Please go purchase a copy!

I don't want any illegally scanned copies appearing here please.   Please do the right thing guys, thanks!

You can't miss it when it appears on the shelves.   It's the one with a dirty great Jupiter launch vehicle taking-off right there on the front cover :)

And the photo at the start of the article gives a whole new meaning to the term "Gray Beard"!  LOL


The "gold nugget" bit is that the author managed to interview Bernard Kutter (Advanced Programs Manager at ULA, formerly Lockheed-Martin).   His comments are on page 57.


That would be the same Lockheed-Martin that gave us the mass estimates for X-33 and Venture-Star?

ULA != Skunkworks.
This LM gave mass estimates for Centaurs and Atlases.

Offline Yegor

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Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4048 on: 01/08/2009 01:53 pm »
Please go purchase a copy!

I don't want any illegally scanned copies appearing here please.   Please do the right thing guys, thanks!

You can't miss it when it appears on the shelves.   It's the one with a dirty great Jupiter launch vehicle taking-off right there on the front cover :)

And the photo at the start of the article gives a whole new meaning to the term "Gray Beard"!  LOL


The "gold nugget" bit is that the author managed to interview Bernard Kutter (Advanced Programs Manager at ULA, formerly Lockheed-Martin).   His comments are on page 57.

In short he directly challenges Steve Cook's claims that our Upper Stage mass figures are too low.   He goes toe-to-toe with Cook on this issue On The Record.

The thing is that Kutter has proven stages in production and flying to back his argument up.   What has Cook managed to get flying?   His last major project was X-33.   Who has the most credibility here?

Ross.

Congratulation to the DIRECT team on the article in "Popular Mechanics"!
It is great that there is in the article a person from the industry confirming DIRECT numbers!
Great news! Great advancement!

For me it is the best rebuttal.
« Last Edit: 01/08/2009 01:54 pm by Yegor »


Offline bad_astra

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Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4049 on: 01/08/2009 02:01 pm »
I'll be getting that off the newstand on the 15th. Great cover!
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Offline Yegor

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Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4050 on: 01/08/2009 02:01 pm »
Please go purchase a copy!

I don't want any illegally scanned copies appearing here please.   Please do the right thing guys, thanks!

You can't miss it when it appears on the shelves.   It's the one with a dirty great Jupiter launch vehicle taking-off right there on the front cover :)

And the photo at the start of the article gives a whole new meaning to the term "Gray Beard"!  LOL


The "gold nugget" bit is that the author managed to interview Bernard Kutter (Advanced Programs Manager at ULA, formerly Lockheed-Martin).   His comments are on page 57.


That would be the same Lockheed-Martin that gave us the mass estimates for X-33 and Venture-Star?

I do not know if it was LM who gave the mass estimates for X-33 and Venture-Star but it is one thing to give a mass estimates for something new not flown before and it is a completely another thing to give a mass estimates for a typical upper stage which they produced many different ones and successfully flown during their long history in this business.


Offline Joffan

Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4051 on: 01/08/2009 02:07 pm »
The leap into the spotlight... congratulations team.
Getting through max-Q for humanity becoming fully spacefaring

Offline kraisee

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Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4052 on: 01/08/2009 02:36 pm »
HIP
I don't currently have my computer to hand but I seem to recall a press release style statement in response to that statement piece, I think Steve wrote it, but i'd have to ask him. We wouldn't have done a full rebuttal document for that. We have been working on a rebuttal to the ~65 page "analysis" document dated Oct 2007, not the "statement" piece.

PS I'm writing this on my iPod at the airport, so forgive any mistakes ;)

Ross.
« Last Edit: 01/08/2009 02:40 pm by kraisee »
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
-Robert A. Heinlein

Offline mrbliss

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Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4053 on: 01/08/2009 02:36 pm »
This was the one for the 15th.   But since we started talking about that date *another* has slipped inside that too :)   I've been dropping hints like crazy, but y'all will have to wait a few more days to hear more.

Tease.

Quote
"What do you hear, Starbuck?" ;)

Nothing but the rain of dropped hints...

Steve

Offline zapkitty

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Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4054 on: 01/08/2009 02:38 pm »
Going quiet now for a couple of days.

Okay... they're off to DC... now while they're gone let's optimize Direct  for lox-kero with a hypergolic upper stage...

Direct 3.14159265... to heck with Popular Mechanics, it's Collier's or bust!

 First up we'll need a big fuel depot in LEO... :)

Offline kraisee

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Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4055 on: 01/08/2009 02:42 pm »
Grab 'Im lads... ;)

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
-Robert A. Heinlein

Offline Will

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Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4056 on: 01/08/2009 02:43 pm »
Please go purchase a copy!

I don't want any illegally scanned copies appearing here please.   Please do the right thing guys, thanks!

You can't miss it when it appears on the shelves.   It's the one with a dirty great Jupiter launch vehicle taking-off right there on the front cover :)

And the photo at the start of the article gives a whole new meaning to the term "Gray Beard"!  LOL


The "gold nugget" bit is that the author managed to interview Bernard Kutter (Advanced Programs Manager at ULA, formerly Lockheed-Martin).   His comments are on page 57.


That would be the same Lockheed-Martin that gave us the mass estimates for X-33 and Venture-Star?

I do not know if it was LM who gave the mass estimates for X-33 and Venture-Star but it is one thing to give a mass estimates for something new not flown before and it is a completely another thing to give a mass estimates for a typical upper stage which they produced many different ones and successfully flown during their long history in this business.


The Direct EDS is not a typical stage. It has a better mass fraction than any hydrogen stage that has ever flown, by a considerable margin. Look here:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=15377.msg347878#msg347878

Offline Yegor

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Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4057 on: 01/08/2009 02:44 pm »
Going quiet now for a couple of days.

What do you mean "quiet"?

Mike Griffin's resignation and now an article in "Popular Mechanics" you call it "quiet"?  :o


Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4058 on: 01/08/2009 02:50 pm »
Going quiet now for a couple of days.

What do you mean "quiet"?

Mike Griffin's resignation and now an article in "Popular Mechanics" you call it "quiet"?  :o

"The quiet before the storm"

AKA they are working on something big right now

Offline kraisee

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Re: DIRECT v2.0 - Thread 2
« Reply #4059 on: 01/08/2009 02:58 pm »
I managed to get my laptop to connect, so now I can keep a close eye on zapkitty.   That bleedin' cat is gonna enjoy a visit to the vet if he keeps on making a mess all over the place ;) LOL

And Yegor, yeah, I know what you mean.   We're not going to have much internet access for a few days, and very little time too, so we (Chuck and I) are going "quiet", but I hear ya -- I've had that "waiting for a bus" feeling all week, we've been waiting for ages and suddenly a whole line of things are all happening at the same time -- all the buses came at once!

I've had about 6 hours sleep in the last three day and I'm pretty sure I've got a full couple of days ahead of me.   I can't talk about any of the details yet, but now is the time to wish us luck!

Ross.
« Last Edit: 01/08/2009 03:00 pm by kraisee »
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
-Robert A. Heinlein

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