Author Topic: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?  (Read 17676 times)

Offline virtualperson

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Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« on: 08/10/2012 01:45 am »
I was wondering if curiosity was capable of leaving the crater (or is it too steep/too far to travel?

Anyone know the total distance traveled by the other probes on Mars?

Thanks!

Offline tigerade

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Re: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« Reply #1 on: 08/10/2012 02:07 am »
I think it technically could, but there is so much science to be done within the crater, that there won't be much discussion of that for some time.

Online robertross

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Re: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« Reply #2 on: 08/10/2012 02:23 am »
edit to add: this question (and answer should be in the Q&A section)

I was wondering if curiosity was capable of leaving the crater (or is it too steep/too far to travel?

Anyone know the total distance traveled by the other probes on Mars?

Thanks!

http://marsrover.nasa.gov/mission/traverse_maps.html

"Opportunity's traverse map through Sol 3024
Total odometry as of Sol 3027 (July 29, 2012), is 21.52 miles (34,639.45 meters). "

"Spirit's traverse map through Sol 2555
Spirit's total odometry is unchanged at 7,730.50 meters (4.80 miles)."

Some info on Gale Crater to consider:

"The Mars Science Laboratory mission will place the
rover Curiosity at the foot of a mountain of sedimentary
strata, or layers, inside Gale Crater. The landing site at
4.6 degrees south latitude, 137.4 degrees east longitude
will give the rover access to a field site with science
targets both on the crater floor beside the mountain and
in the lower layers of the mountain.

"Gale Crater spans 96 miles (154 kilometers) in diameter,
giving it an area about the equivalent of Connecticut and
Rhode Island combined. It holds a mound, informally
named Mount Sharp, rising about 3 miles (5 kilometers)
above the crater floor, which is higher than Mt. Rainier
rises above Seattle. The slopes of Mount Sharp are
gentle enough for Curiosity to climb, though during the
prime mission of one Martian year (98 weeks), the rover
will probably not go beyond some particularly intriguing
layers near the base."

and:

"The pace at which Curiosity gets to the features of high
science interest inside and outside of the ellipse will
depend on findings and decisions made after landing,
including the possibility of identifying targets not yet
known. Getting to key destinations at lower layers of
Mount Sharp may take a large fraction of the 98-week
prime mission. The route may involve navigation through
some challenging terrains such as sand dunes, hills and
canyons."

NASA's ultimate response:
"Should Curiosity continue to be in working condition
following the prime mission, an extended mission could
continue the investigation by exploring higher, younger
layers of Mount Sharp."

So it has enough to do in its limited lifetime (due to the RTG's Pu decay rate - no infinite solar recharge this time), that it likely won't even be able to climb out in time, let alone survive such a high climb.
« Last Edit: 08/10/2012 02:24 am by robertross »

Offline Space Junkie

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Re: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« Reply #3 on: 08/10/2012 03:12 am »
So it has enough to do in its limited lifetime (due to the RTG's Pu decay rate - no infinite solar recharge this time), that it likely won't even be able to climb out in time, let alone survive such a high climb.

Decay of the RTG's plutonium will not be what limits Curiosity's lifetime. The Pu in the RTG will be producing plenty of heat long after other critical systems are likely to have failed.

Offline Archibald

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Re: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« Reply #4 on: 08/10/2012 06:52 am »
Will MSL last longer than the MERs ? if not, what are the factors limiting the new rover life (when compared with the MERs) ?
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Offline Jim

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Re: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« Reply #5 on: 08/10/2012 07:30 am »
Will MSL last longer than the MERs ? if not, what are the factors limiting the new rover life (when compared with the MERs) ?

MSL was designed for 2 years and MERs were designed for 90 days.

Offline ugordan

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Re: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« Reply #6 on: 08/10/2012 07:45 am »
no infinite solar recharge this time

When you factor in dust buildup on the panels (which is pretty much unpredictable as are cleaning events that work against it), along with harsh Martian winters, there's no such thing as infinite. You might get lucky and have a really long run or you might get a dust storm so severe that your vehicle dies because it's not producing enough power just to run heaters during night.

RTGs in comparison should be much more predictable.

Decay of the RTG's plutonium will not be what limits Curiosity's lifetime. The Pu in the RTG will be producing plenty of heat long after other critical systems are likely to have failed.

Besides, isn't the much bigger factor in RTG power decline the degradation of thermocouples by radiation from the source?

To the OP, why would you want to leave Gale crater? All the interesting stuff is inside it.

Offline MATTBLAK

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Re: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« Reply #7 on: 08/10/2012 07:45 am »
But the RTG is finite from the day its activated. And dust or not, solar arrays will degrade more slowly.
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Offline ugordan

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Re: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« Reply #8 on: 08/10/2012 07:54 am »
But the RTG is finite from the day its activated. And dust or not, solar arrays will degrade more slowly.

Of what use is that metric in the real world when you're at the whims of the environment?

This dust storm nearly killed the rovers, 3.5 years into their mission. Pointing out how solar panels typically degrade slower is useless when you have dead hardware sitting on Mars.

Offline tigerade

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Re: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« Reply #9 on: 08/10/2012 08:10 am »
Will MSL last longer than the MERs ? if not, what are the factors limiting the new rover life (when compared with the MERs) ?

MSL was designed for 2 years and MERs were designed for 90 days.

That makes me wonder.  Spirit and Opportunity both lasted far longer than 90 days.  Spirit lasted a good 6 years.  Opportunity is still truckin' after an amazing 8 years.  That's about 32 times longer than the advertised duration time.

MSL is designed for 2 years.  I'm assuming that's a conservative number.  If it is, how long do we think we can really squeeze of that rover?

Offline MATTBLAK

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Re: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« Reply #10 on: 08/10/2012 08:27 am »
But the RTG is finite from the day its activated. And dust or not, solar arrays will degrade more slowly.

Of what use is that metric in the real world when you're at the whims of the environment?

This dust storm nearly killed the rovers, 3.5 years into their mission. Pointing out how solar panels typically degrade slower is useless when you have dead hardware sitting on Mars.
Er... Duh, I know that. You're acting like I'm trying to discount it. And what makes you think what I said is any less true? Don't do the one-upmanship thing here. There`s no need.
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Offline ugordan

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Re: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« Reply #11 on: 08/10/2012 09:27 am »
And what makes you think what I said is any less true?

I never said it's not true. What's with the defensive stance? I'm wondering about the whole point of your remark, from an engineering and practical standpoint, other than stating the obvious? The "But the RTG is finite" part, in particular. Mechanical wear and tear will likely disable/kill the rover long before the faster RTG decay rate becomes a factor.

Offline Space Junkie

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Re: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« Reply #12 on: 08/10/2012 09:47 am »
MSL is designed for 2 years.  I'm assuming that's a conservative number.  If it is, how long do we think we can really squeeze of that rover?

I've been wondering about that too.

The question might be better divided into several parts: How long will the rover retain use of its robotic arm? How long will it retain some mobility? How long will it remain operational as a stationary research platform? What about the various science instruments?

Obviously we don't know. It seems likely that mechanical components will fail first. Would the next limiting factor be the life of the lithium ion batteries? 

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« Reply #13 on: 08/10/2012 11:26 am »

Besides, isn't the much bigger factor in RTG power decline the degradation of thermocouples by radiation from the source?


The thermocouples have been redesigned and are suppose to be more robust now. That RTG could still be going at 80% power 30 years from now.
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Offline MATTBLAK

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Re: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« Reply #14 on: 08/10/2012 12:53 pm »
And what makes you think what I said is any less true?

I never said it's not true. What's with the defensive stance? I'm wondering about the whole point of your remark, from an engineering and practical standpoint, other than stating the obvious? The "But the RTG is finite" part, in particular. Mechanical wear and tear will likely disable/kill the rover long before the faster RTG decay rate becomes a factor.

You make good points. But 'defensive'? Sorry if you thought I was overly defensive or not thinking about the Dust Storm issue. But since I didn't bring Dust Storms up and didn't intend to, you certainly looked like you were trying to provoke a response from me - by deflecting what I was saying with distracting semantics. I wasn't aware that stating the obvious - and you're right; I was - was something you always need to call someone out on! The fact that I didn't cover all angles in my previous post merely meant I was trying to be concise (like now?  ;D  )

There are pros and cons for RTG versus solar array use - again stating the obvious. Curiosity needs RTG because its too massive and packed with too many instruments, tools and cameras to get by on the MER power source - again the obvious. But if its so obvious, why then are some of us even bothering disseminating the concepts?

Possibly Curiosity could leave Gale crater should a clear path be found out of there. But Gale was chosen because it is so damned rich a destination for science that Curiosity could easily spend the next two or three years circumnavigating it. I guess we speculate this stuff because its fun, even if its not actually necessary to. Once Curiosity is on the move, I think the speculations and side-tracking will become somewhat moot.

There is a Lot of quality science about to come our way, Ladies and Gents. I for one am going to enjoy it, as I did the halcyon days of the MERs :)
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Offline MATTBLAK

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Re: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« Reply #15 on: 08/10/2012 12:58 pm »

Besides, isn't the much bigger factor in RTG power decline the degradation of thermocouples by radiation from the source?


The thermocouples have been redesigned and are suppose to be more robust now. That RTG could still be going at 80% power 30 years from now.

That's fantastic, I didn't know that! But on the day of the landing thread, I made a crack about designing a cartoon showing Curiosity taking the baton from an exhausted Opportunity. No less a person than James Oberg said to me: "Not so fast. What's Curiosity's nuc power profile timeline for the out years, compared to Opportunity's solar power with dust cleaning?"

I guess Mr Oberg may not be aware of the potential for Curiosity's longevity. I confess that like him, I doubted that it might last as long as Opportunity's lucky experiences after mini-tornadoes and gusts clearing the arrays.
« Last Edit: 08/10/2012 12:59 pm by MATTBLAK »
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Offline Kaputnik

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Re: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« Reply #16 on: 08/10/2012 01:11 pm »
In the way that a MER could cover 100m or so in a day, depending on terrain (yes, I know that the record is something like 140m but thinking realistic averages)- what is the comparable number likely to be for Curiosity?
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Offline Archibald

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Re: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« Reply #17 on: 08/10/2012 02:55 pm »
Quote
That makes me wonder.  Spirit and Opportunity both lasted far longer than 90 days.  Spirit lasted a good 6 years.  Opportunity is still truckin' after an amazing 8 years.  That's about 32 times longer than the advertised duration time.

MSL is designed for 2 years.  I'm assuming that's a conservative number.  If it is, how long do we think we can really squeeze of that rover?

Dare I say... 64 years ?  ;D 
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Offline aero

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Re: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« Reply #18 on: 08/10/2012 03:01 pm »
I hate to think that we won't replace MSL with something better before MSL runs out of power.
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Offline kch

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Re: Will Curiosity ever leave Gale Crater?
« Reply #19 on: 08/10/2012 03:22 pm »
Quote
That makes me wonder.  Spirit and Opportunity both lasted far longer than 90 days.  Spirit lasted a good 6 years.  Opportunity is still truckin' after an amazing 8 years.  That's about 32 times longer than the advertised duration time.

MSL is designed for 2 years.  I'm assuming that's a conservative number.  If it is, how long do we think we can really squeeze of that rover?

Dare I say... 64 years ?  ;D 

Perhaps the next three rovers could be named Vera, Chuck and Dave?  I'm sure Sir Paul would approve ... ;)

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