[...Indeed, in the UK when the background force changes were eliminated, in an effortto improve force measurement resolution, no EmDrive force was measured. Thiswas clearly a result of attempting to measure the forces on a fully static thruster,where T and R cancel each other....
Quote from: TheTraveller on 06/24/2015 01:14 pm[...Indeed, in the UK when the background force changes were eliminated, in an effortto improve force measurement resolution, no EmDrive force was measured. Thiswas clearly a result of attempting to measure the forces on a fully static thruster,where T and R cancel each other....So, with the EM Drive in deep space, or at a Lagrangian point, where there are no external background forces, the EM Drive would be unable to exert a force on the spaceship and it would just sit still?
A warnning on the detrimental effect of vibrations on scales, for people using scales to measure the EM Drive force, (as done for example by Shawyer), on Tajmar's paper:Quote we have demonstrated that periodical vibrations, in our case generatedby a spinning body, can significantly influence the readout of the scale, which probablyoperates based on an active feedback loop. The majority of electronic scales would fall intothis category, since they use an electromagnetic feedback loop in order to determine the forcenecessary to counter the weight of a test mass. This feedback loop has a defined frequency(which is mostly a trade secret of the production companies) for any specific state. Thus theinteraction of these two frequencies can lead to measurement errors. In case this situationcannot be avoided in a measurement, we advise that proper precautions should be taken inorder to decouple the vibration sources. Finally we conclude that the reason for the conflictingreports of the mass measurements of spinning gyroscopes was due to the error sourcespresented in this paper. http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1506/1506.02689.pdfThe discussion in the previous pages that "the EM Drive" needs some vibration to operate, makes one wonder about the EM Drive measurements that relied on scales.
we have demonstrated that periodical vibrations, in our case generatedby a spinning body, can significantly influence the readout of the scale, which probablyoperates based on an active feedback loop. The majority of electronic scales would fall intothis category, since they use an electromagnetic feedback loop in order to determine the forcenecessary to counter the weight of a test mass. This feedback loop has a defined frequency(which is mostly a trade secret of the production companies) for any specific state. Thus theinteraction of these two frequencies can lead to measurement errors. In case this situationcannot be avoided in a measurement, we advise that proper precautions should be taken inorder to decouple the vibration sources. Finally we conclude that the reason for the conflictingreports of the mass measurements of spinning gyroscopes was due to the error sourcespresented in this paper.
Quote from: Rodal on 06/24/2015 01:29 pmQuote from: TheTraveller on 06/24/2015 01:14 pm[...Indeed, in the UK when the background force changes were eliminated, in an effortto improve force measurement resolution, no EmDrive force was measured. Thiswas clearly a result of attempting to measure the forces on a fully static thruster,where T and R cancel each other....So, with the EM Drive in deep space, or at a Lagrangian point, where there are no external background forces, the EM Drive would be unable to exert a force on the spaceship and it would just sit still?Why do you always go to the extreme point?There is ALWAYS vibration in any ship. Pumps, motors, compressors, etc. If needed simple to rig up a vibrator to kick things off.Easy fix.
Quote from: Rodal on 06/24/2015 12:55 pmA warnning on the detrimental effect of vibrations on scales, for people using scales to measure the EM Drive force, (as done for example by Shawyer), on Tajmar's paper:Quote we have demonstrated that periodical vibrations, in our case generatedby a spinning body, can significantly influence the readout of the scale, which probablyoperates based on an active feedback loop. The majority of electronic scales would fall intothis category, since they use an electromagnetic feedback loop in order to determine the forcenecessary to counter the weight of a test mass. This feedback loop has a defined frequency(which is mostly a trade secret of the production companies) for any specific state. Thus theinteraction of these two frequencies can lead to measurement errors. In case this situationcannot be avoided in a measurement, we advise that proper precautions should be taken inorder to decouple the vibration sources. Finally we conclude that the reason for the conflictingreports of the mass measurements of spinning gyroscopes was due to the error sourcespresented in this paper. http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1506/1506.02689.pdfThe discussion in the previous pages that "the EM Drive" needs some vibration to operate, makes one wonder about the EM Drive measurements that relied on scales.I agree Doc, which is why I will start with a fulcrum balance first then move to a digital scale. Think Shell is going to do the same thing as a cross-check. Torsion testing not in my plans, IOW, no induced mechanical force...I'm looking for momentum from a static, cold-start up. Their may be none, which could be very telling.
Quote from: Rodal on 06/24/2015 12:55 pmA warnning on the detrimental effect of vibrations on scales, for people using scales to measure the EM Drive force, (as done for example by Shawyer), on Tajmar's paper:Quote we have demonstrated that periodical vibrations, in our case generatedby a spinning body, can significantly influence the readout of the scale, which probablyoperates based on an active feedback loop. The majority of electronic scales would fall intothis category, since they use an electromagnetic feedback loop in order to determine the forcenecessary to counter the weight of a test mass. This feedback loop has a defined frequency(which is mostly a trade secret of the production companies) for any specific state. Thus theinteraction of these two frequencies can lead to measurement errors. In case this situationcannot be avoided in a measurement, we advise that proper precautions should be taken inorder to decouple the vibration sources. Finally we conclude that the reason for the conflictingreports of the mass measurements of spinning gyroscopes was due to the error sourcespresented in this paper. http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1506/1506.02689.pdfThe discussion in the previous pages that "the EM Drive" needs some vibration to operate, makes one wonder about the EM Drive measurements that relied on scales.I could not agree more on that! I'm glad that my scales will be at the other end of the fulcrum, have to worry about a slight bending moment of the beam but for the forces trying to be measured it's very small, plus there still will be the laser on the beam.Shell
Quote from: SeeShells on 06/24/2015 01:40 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/24/2015 12:55 pmA warnning on the detrimental effect of vibrations on scales, for people using scales to measure the EM Drive force, (as done for example by Shawyer), on Tajmar's paper:Quote we have demonstrated that periodical vibrations, in our case generatedby a spinning body, can significantly influence the readout of the scale, which probablyoperates based on an active feedback loop. The majority of electronic scales would fall intothis category, since they use an electromagnetic feedback loop in order to determine the forcenecessary to counter the weight of a test mass. This feedback loop has a defined frequency(which is mostly a trade secret of the production companies) for any specific state. Thus theinteraction of these two frequencies can lead to measurement errors. In case this situationcannot be avoided in a measurement, we advise that proper precautions should be taken inorder to decouple the vibration sources. Finally we conclude that the reason for the conflictingreports of the mass measurements of spinning gyroscopes was due to the error sourcespresented in this paper. http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1506/1506.02689.pdfThe discussion in the previous pages that "the EM Drive" needs some vibration to operate, makes one wonder about the EM Drive measurements that relied on scales.I could not agree more on that! I'm glad that my scales will be at the other end of the fulcrum, have to worry about a slight bending moment of the beam but for the forces trying to be measured it's very small, plus there still will be the laser on the beam.ShellPeople,Micro vibration is everywhere. Need to do very special isolation builds to try to eliminate it. Now that you know what SPR experienced, there should not be an issue. Vibration is your friend.
Quote from: TheTraveller on 06/24/2015 01:33 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/24/2015 01:29 pmQuote from: TheTraveller on 06/24/2015 01:14 pm[...Indeed, in the UK when the background force changes were eliminated, in an effortto improve force measurement resolution, no EmDrive force was measured. Thiswas clearly a result of attempting to measure the forces on a fully static thruster,where T and R cancel each other....So, with the EM Drive in deep space, or at a Lagrangian point, where there are no external background forces, the EM Drive would be unable to exert a force on the spaceship and it would just sit still?Why do you always go to the extreme point?There is ALWAYS vibration in any ship. Pumps, motors, compressors, etc. If needed simple to rig up a vibrator to kick things off.Easy fix.So, internal to the Spaceship vibration forces from Pumps, motors, compressors, or a vibrator in the spaceship are, according to you, what Shawyer means to be "background" forces that will enable an EM Drive to exert its force on the center of mass of the spaceship?I thought that Shawyer was referring to external forces as "background forces" (forces external to the spaceship)
Indeed, in the UK when the background force changes were eliminated, in an effort to improve force measurement resolution, no EmDrive force was measured. This was clearly a result of attempting to measure the forces on a fully static thruster, where T and R cancel each other.UK flight thruster measurements employ this principle to calibrate the background noise on the force balance prior to carrying out force measurements.
All this talk of vibration increasing the effects reminded me of the Podkletnov experiment."when the disc was accelerating due to the AC field, but not spinning, objects above the disc lost 0.05%-0.06% of their weight. When they spun the disc at 5000 rpm they noticed a larger weight loss of 0.6-2%. The greatest weight loss occured when they slowed the disc to 3000-3300 rpm and it visibly vibrated."http://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/the-podkletnov-effect.htmlAnother thing is, in the KML build it seemed to affect gravity around it, just like in the Podkletnov experiment.Could it be that the emdrive is firing Unruh waves and making matter around it less responsive to gravity, similar to what Mike McCulloch suggested?
Areo's images in a B/W gif and color. For your viewing pleasure.Shell
Quote from: rfmwguy on 06/24/2015 01:35 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/24/2015 12:55 pmA warnning on the detrimental effect of vibrations on scales, for people using scales to measure the EM Drive force, (as done for example by Shawyer), on Tajmar's paper:Quote(...)I agree Doc, which is why I will start with a fulcrum balance first then move to a digital scale. Think Shell is going to do the same thing as a cross-check. Torsion testing not in my plans, IOW, no induced mechanical force...I'm looking for momentum from a static, cold-start up. Their may be none, which could be very telling.You can always lightly tap the big end.No induced inertia is my plan. If this engine is really an engine, it won't need any. Minimize variables, Mr T, is the approach I'm taking. It may fail...I can deal with that.
Quote from: Rodal on 06/24/2015 12:55 pmA warnning on the detrimental effect of vibrations on scales, for people using scales to measure the EM Drive force, (as done for example by Shawyer), on Tajmar's paper:Quote(...)I agree Doc, which is why I will start with a fulcrum balance first then move to a digital scale. Think Shell is going to do the same thing as a cross-check. Torsion testing not in my plans, IOW, no induced mechanical force...I'm looking for momentum from a static, cold-start up. Their may be none, which could be very telling.You can always lightly tap the big end.
A warnning on the detrimental effect of vibrations on scales, for people using scales to measure the EM Drive force, (as done for example by Shawyer), on Tajmar's paper:Quote(...)I agree Doc, which is why I will start with a fulcrum balance first then move to a digital scale. Think Shell is going to do the same thing as a cross-check. Torsion testing not in my plans, IOW, no induced mechanical force...I'm looking for momentum from a static, cold-start up. Their may be none, which could be very telling.
(...)
Quote from: rfmwguy on 06/24/2015 01:35 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/24/2015 12:55 pmA warnning on the detrimental effect of vibrations on scales, for people using scales to measure the EM Drive force, (as done for example by Shawyer), on Tajmar's paper:Quote we have demonstrated that periodical vibrations, in our case generatedby a spinning body, can significantly influence the readout of the scale, which probablyoperates based on an active feedback loop. The majority of electronic scales would fall intothis category, since they use an electromagnetic feedback loop in order to determine the forcenecessary to counter the weight of a test mass. This feedback loop has a defined frequency(which is mostly a trade secret of the production companies) for any specific state. Thus theinteraction of these two frequencies can lead to measurement errors. In case this situationcannot be avoided in a measurement, we advise that proper precautions should be taken inorder to decouple the vibration sources. Finally we conclude that the reason for the conflictingreports of the mass measurements of spinning gyroscopes was due to the error sourcespresented in this paper. http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1506/1506.02689.pdfThe discussion in the previous pages that "the EM Drive" needs some vibration to operate, makes one wonder about the EM Drive measurements that relied on scales.I agree Doc, which is why I will start with a fulcrum balance first then move to a digital scale. Think Shell is going to do the same thing as a cross-check. Torsion testing not in my plans, IOW, no induced mechanical force...I'm looking for momentum from a static, cold-start up. Their may be none, which could be very telling.You can always lightly tap the big end.
Quote from: TheTraveller on 06/24/2015 01:44 pmQuote from: rfmwguy on 06/24/2015 01:35 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/24/2015 12:55 pmA warnning on the detrimental effect of vibrations on scales, for people using scales to measure the EM Drive force, (as done for example by Shawyer), on Tajmar's paper:Quote(...)I agree Doc, which is why I will start with a fulcrum balance first then move to a digital scale. Think Shell is going to do the same thing as a cross-check. Torsion testing not in my plans, IOW, no induced mechanical force...I'm looking for momentum from a static, cold-start up. Their may be none, which could be very telling.You can always lightly tap the big end.No induced inertia is my plan. If this engine is really an engine, it won't need any. Minimize variables, Mr T, is the approach I'm taking. It may fail...I can deal with that.
Quote from: SeeShells on 06/24/2015 01:57 pmAreo's images in a B/W gif and color. For your viewing pleasure.ShellThat's fantastic !!!!!!!!!!!!!!There is something interesting happening at the small end of the coneCould you please do that for the other views as well ?Thanks so much
Occam's razor: the mechanical vibration affects the experimental readings, which are experimental artifacts, rather than these vibrations being responsible for Black Hole Unruh radiation or making matter less responsive to gravity.
Quote from: Rodal on 06/24/2015 01:29 pmQuote from: TheTraveller on 06/24/2015 01:14 pm[...Indeed, in the UK when the background force changes were eliminated, in an effortto improve force measurement resolution, no EmDrive force was measured. Thiswas clearly a result of attempting to measure the forces on a fully static thruster,where T and R cancel each other....So, with the EM Drive in deep space, or at a Lagrangian point, where there are no external background forces, the EM Drive would be unable to exert a force on the spaceship and it would just sit still?Why do you always go to the extreme point?There is ALWAYS vibration in any ship. Pumps, motors, compressors, etc. If needed simple to rig up a vibrator to kick things off.If you tell the design engineer it needs an external vibrators source at switch on, no problems. Gets designed into the EMDrive support systems.