Author Topic: Where will F9 flights 14 & 15 attempt "solid surface" landings?  (Read 265843 times)

Offline Damon Hill

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Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but if CRS 4 doesn't have legs, which now seems to be the case, would they try to 'land' legless, in the ocean close to the barge? Most of the return flight elements could be tested, sans legs and touch down, plus assets could be placed on the barge to gather information such as telemetry and video. Has to be better than pizza dish in the window. It would also help prove accuracy before trying to actually touch down on the barge.

Presumably there's already terminal precision guidance on the pad to supplement internal rocket guidance (itself likely GPS based), else Grasshopper/F9R wouldn't already be landing nearly on a dime every time.  Shouldn't be hard to dial in an offset 1000 feet or less to land in the water a very precise distance from the barge.  I had the impression that error is on the order of centimeters with high precision GPS, though perhaps moving targets might raise it to a meter or so. 

That ought to be 'close enough' unless they want to reinsert the first stage right back into the holddown sockets...  (I'm sure they're not seriously attempting >that< level of precision)
« Last Edit: 09/08/2014 03:50 am by Damon Hill »

Offline CT Space Guy

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Right here with a barge driven up on shore or just off the cost in shallow water with jack up legs so the platform will be stable

Offline mvpel

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That ought to be 'close enough' unless they want to reinsert the first stage right back into the holddown sockets...  (I'm sure they're not seriously attempting >that< level of precision)

I wouldn't put it past them. Embedded systems are pretty fancy these days. ;) Maybe they should weld a dime to the barge deck for the first solid-surface landing.
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Offline guckyfan

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To be that precise I think they would need the grid fins. Or extremely beefed up cold gas thrusters. I think they are going for grid fins. But seeing them on SpX-4 would be a surprise.


Offline meekGee

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To be that precise I think they would need the grid fins. Or extremely beefed up cold gas thrusters. I think they are going for grid fins. But seeing them on SpX-4 would be a surprise.

My impression is that grid fins do not add precision to the terminal maneuver.  They add cross-range ability, or alternatively, the ability to counter stronger winds on the way down.  Once the engine starts, it can overpower anything, and besides the stage is slowed down so that the fins are ineffective anyway.
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Offline Kabloona

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Right here with a barge driven up on shore or just off the cost in shallow water with jack up legs so the platform will be stable

That's an interesting speculation (or maybe you have intel?). But why put the barge there (Georgia) instead of offshore of the Cape?
« Last Edit: 09/08/2014 07:20 pm by Kabloona »

Offline CT Space Guy

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It’s less distance than returning to the cape for launches to the ISS.

It’s possibly more desolate of an area.

It’s in Georgia just east of their proposed space port. So if Georgia wants to host a space port it would be a good first step for them to help in any way they can with a stage landing. Nothing better for business than doing what they can to help space company’s conduct their operations.

I don’t know if the whole area is a National Seashore or what type of influence they could have over regulations or permits. And if that isn’t workable then maybe they could go further inland. But I think for the first landings right on the shore would be best

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Offline JasonAW3

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I think that this whole patent infringment situation is a bunch of horsepuckey.

     Unless SpaceX was infringing on some VERY specific technologies, Blue Origin has no case.

     This is a technology that has been in the public domain for more years than I've been alive.

     Unless SpaceX was using a specific design of a barge that Blue Origin had patented, or used a specific guidance that they had patented, there is no case.

     Personally, I don't think it's Bezos pushing this case, but rather his lawyers.  Unfortunately, sometimes, with big corporations, lawyers will get off the leaseh and start biting at anything that they see as a threat to their income.  (Gosh...  I hope Elon and SpaceX got all thier shots!)
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Offline Kabloona

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Update: Per Chris's latest article, barge landing attempt is likely slated for CRS-5:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/09/soyuz-tma-12m-return-iss-trio-to-earth/

Which seems like further confirmation that Orbcomm has slipped past CRS-5 into 2015 as previously rumored. Otherwise they would presumably be trying the first barge landing on the Orbcomm launch.
« Last Edit: 09/11/2014 04:57 pm by Kabloona »

Offline Moe Grills

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Update: Per Chris's latest article, barge landing attempt is likely slated for CRS-5:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/09/soyuz-tma-12m-return-iss-trio-to-earth/

Which seems like further confirmation that Orbcomm has slipped past CRS-5 into 2015 as previously rumored. Otherwise they would presumably be trying the first barge landing on the Orbcomm launch.

Barge landing is definitely a better concept than 'swamp' landing. Remember, much of Florida is swamp/everglades (I know) filled with plenty of poisonous snakes and alligators. Would you want to be an SpaceX employee in such conditions?

Offline RonM

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Right here with a barge driven up on shore or just off the cost in shallow water with jack up legs so the platform will be stable

That's an interesting speculation (or maybe you have intel?). But why put the barge there (Georgia) instead of offshore of the Cape?

It wouldn't have to boost back as far, using less fuel. However, Cumberland Island is a National Seashore. The National Park Service would never allow a barge next to shore. 20 to 30 miles offshore the water is still less than 100 feet deep. That would be far beyond the horizon, outside of US territorial waters, and still close to the Georgia site if SpaceX wants to get the first stage to land quickly. Of course, they could just sail it straight back to the launch site.

Offline Joris

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Would you want to be an SpaceX employee in such conditions?

Yes. Recovering spacecrafts from alligator-infested swamps is too sci-fi-ish for me to pass up.
JIMO would have been the first proper spaceship.

Offline Mongo62

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Would you want to be an SpaceX employee in such conditions?

Yes. Recovering spacecrafts from alligator-infested swamps is too sci-fi-ish for me to pass up.

Except in the old B&W movies, isn't there always at least one monster nearby (either created on Earth by "space radiation" or directly brought back in the spacecraft), ready to attack any investigating humans? Probably a giant mutant alligator, in this case.

Granted, the alligators might simply eat the monster at the end of the movie, as ironic justice after it has killed several humans (this means you, unless you are the hero who saves the life of the professor's beautiful daughter).
« Last Edit: 09/21/2014 08:15 pm by Mongo62 »

Offline Orbiter

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Would you want to be an SpaceX employee in such conditions?

Yes. Recovering spacecrafts from alligator-infested swamps is too sci-fi-ish for me to pass up.

Maybe if SpaceX ever decides to start plopping Dragon's into the Indian River they'll give you a call.
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Offline llanitedave

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Would you want to be an SpaceX employee in such conditions?

Yes. Recovering spacecrafts from alligator-infested swamps is too sci-fi-ish for me to pass up.

Except in the old B&W movies, isn't there always at least one monster nearby (either created on Earth by "space radiation" or directly brought back in the spacecraft), ready to attack any investigating humans? Probably a giant mutant alligator, in this case.

Granted, the alligators might simply eat the monster at the end of the movie, as ironic justice after it has killed several humans (this means you, unless you are the hero who saves the life of the professor's beautiful daughter).

Just don't be the one wearing the red sweater.
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Offline cambrianera

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From CRS-4 discussion thread:
Exclusion areas for CRS-4 (courtesy of Darga):
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zp15b_P5ERVk.krdQml9d0HR0
Bathimetric lines of the coast: picture below (NOAA)
Typical detailed depth chart for up to 24 NM:
http://www.charts.noaa.gov/OnLineViewer/11536.shtml
The three lines are 3, 12, 24 NM
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Offline Kabloona

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So does the exclusion map from CRS-4 give us any more hints as to where the barge will be?

Offline oiorionsbelt

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Doubtful, considering there was a boost back burn but no boost back.

Offline cambrianera

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So does the exclusion map from CRS-4 give us any more hints as to where the barge will be?

Too many pieces of the puzzle still missing (trajectories, authorizations, performance margins, etc.)
What's sure is that a jack-up rig for 100 ft / 30 m depth isn't something so difficult to find / rent.
Placing one 20-30 NM off the coast of NC should not be impossible (cost & permits).
A "dogleg" boost (not a boostback) would be needed.
Oh to be young again. . .

Offline saliva_sweet

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The sideways divert they pulled was interesting. Suggests that for ISS launches they could boost forward to Cape Lookout (looks uninhabited) or perhaps do a more pronounced dogleg to a barge in the shallows by Cape Fear.

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